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<geist>
hmm, kinda want to put in an order for a visionfive 2 board
<geist>
may ship in january!
<geist>
i'm a bit unexcited in the fact that the starfive page doesn't have docs for the JH7110 soc
<geist>
hmm, only a datasheet for the previous one, no real software dev guide around
<geist>
this is a no-go
<heat>
aw
<geist>
sigh, come on assholes. release the damn docs
<heat>
i did look at it briefly after someone mentioned it in the fuchsia discord
<heat>
but it seemed too unobtanium here
<geist>
yeah i had even preordered the visionfive and cancelled the preorder when it went on for like 6 months
<geist>
so not going to get snookered again
<geist>
this time it looks like the visionfive 2 is gonna really ship soon, but no docs, no play
<heat>
if you look at GPLv2 code for documentation is it a license violation? :)
<geist>
maybe not, but it's no fun anyway
<geist>
and that assumes there's full support for it in linux, etc
<heat>
"VisionFive 2 supports mainstream Linux distributions"
<geist>
i mean i'm sure the basics could be made to go, the datasheet has at least the memory map and there is a DTC, etc
<geist>
but bleh
<geist>
yeah but that doesn't mean it has full support for everything. it may hjust have the gpios jammed into place, no proper clock driver, etc
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<geist>
from what i can grok the starfive folks dont seem to be scammy or anything, i suspect they're just a handful of devs and no doc writers. or the docs are in chinese, or there are no internal docs (actually kinda common)
<FireFly>
a mildly amusing switcheroo would be to offer an OS talk at fosdem and then give a talk about knightos :p
<ddevault>
hah
<ddevault>
would be *very* impressive if I could connect KnightOS to a projector to drive the slide deck
<kazinsal>
new kernel design classification unlocked: uwukernel
<FireFly>
"I'm sorry my calculator doesn't have a VGA port"
<Mutabah>
bitbang VGA?
<ddevault>
would probably involve the USB port
<ddevault>
and a little board to do some heavy lifting
<FireFly>
might make the surprise "turns out I was driving the presentation from within the OS" a bit less subtle if it's rendered at TI-calc screen resolutions and in monochrome though
<ddevault>
who says I would send the internal display to the projector?
<FireFly>
..true
<ddevault>
please wait 5 minutes while my... laptop... renders the next slide
<Mutabah>
also, that's klange's trick
<ddevault>
maybe so, but I'll selfishly one-up him by also writing the language my kernel is written in
<epony>
VGA is an analogue signal
<epony>
so much confusion in so little words
<FireFly>
feels like a reasonable way to stretch the term
<FireFly>
I don't think 'bit' is the main distinguishing feature of bitbanging
<clever>
you can also bit-bang a 24bit parallel digital signal, then just slap a 3 channel DAC on it
<epony>
mhm, the hole in the floor has space for more han solos
<clever>
or even just a resistor dac
<Mutabah>
epony: You can bit-bang 8-colour VGA :)
<Mutabah>
Or more with a resistor ladder DAC
<epony>
well, it's not just one signal and has sync too
<Mutabah>
five
<epony>
check out the VGA spec and you'll see composite and VGA are not the same thing, and even composite is infeasible
<Mutabah>
two sync lines and three colour lines (iirc)
<ddevault>
ah I should shout out #osdev at the end too
<ddevault>
back to teaching a raspberry pi how to display this slide deck
<epony>
that's their primary use case, signage and kiosk / presentation
<epony>
smart-vga ;-)
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<kaichiuchi>
pog: may i pog you
<Ermine>
ddevault: congrats on approval? Will it be streamed this year?
<pog>
kaichiuchi lewd
<Ermine>
wiki page on gog output protocol when
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<kaichiuchi>
waiting for packages suck
<ddevault>
Ermine: I think so
<ddevault>
still not finalized, though, too early to celebrate
<zid>
I thought they already fired you
<kaichiuchi>
i'd fire you
<kaichiuchi>
(not really, but i would probably have to leave the office every now and again)
<kaichiuchi>
<3
<pog>
fire me
<zid>
out of a canon into the sun?
<pog>
yes
<zid>
or a cannon
<zid>
firing you out of a kodak, pew
<pog>
nikon pls
<zid>
I'm not that rich
* pog
flashes her cash at zid
<zid>
:(
<pog>
aww sorry
<pog>
i'm not rich either
<zid>
I need $4.95 so I can pirate some ebooks for myself
<pog>
ok
<zid>
stick has gone afk and not posted blacksmith collecting tomboys v5, and honzuki is out tonight
<zid>
worry
<pog>
aw
<zid>
I want a collection of tomboys, but idk how to get it started
<pog>
am i too femme to count as a tomboy
<zid>
if you were a tomboy I think you'd just end up being a boy?
<zid>
idk how all this works
<pog>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<ddevault>
time to play "can I read ARMARM today"
<ddevault>
yes!
<ddevault>
I bet I can be in userspace by this afternoon
<ddevault>
evening*
<ddevault>
syscalls too if I'm lucky
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<ddevault>
just finished setting up the init loader, just have to drop from EL1=>EL0
<ddevault>
then, uh, do some other stuff
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<kaichiuchi>
it's incredible how getting the size of a file in C is somehow ridiculous
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<sham1>
Well that's just because C doesn't really have a way to do it
<zid>
yea that's not really a C thing
<sham1>
Well, unless you're talking about ftell and rewind
<kaichiuchi>
I know it isn't a *C thing*
<zid>
C just barely manges streams, sorta
<kaichiuchi>
SEEK_END isn't portable
<zid>
sham1: not valid
<sham1>
Right
<kaichiuchi>
and in win32 land, it's even worse
<kaichiuchi>
because you NEED a HANDLE
<kaichiuchi>
GetFileSize doesn't take a FILE
<zid>
SEEK_END is UB on binary streams
<kaichiuchi>
right
<zid>
it won't ever actually fail but, technically not allowed
<sham1>
But why
<kaichiuchi>
also I'm really trying to use vim
<kaichiuchi>
but god
<kaichiuchi>
it's annoying
<zid>
cus C supports filesystems that only deal in blocks not chars
<sham1>
Oh
<sham1>
That... is gross
<zid>
which in the modern era is a dumb thing, but was important
<zid>
back in the 70s
<sham1>
I'm clearly stuck in a POSIX realism
<zid>
So now we just use POSIX
<sham1>
Everything-is-POSIX. I try to write portably and I fail. F
<zid>
which also relaxes some other semantics like interleaving
<zid>
It's fun watching people port linux utils to windows then wondering why the fuck they blow up
<zid>
msvcrt is *not* using the posix interleaving behavior, it's using the C one
<kaichiuchi>
in short though, there's no 100% portable way to get the size of a file
<zid>
Which is fine, tbh
<sham1>
Eh, not all devices have files
<zid>
all the file apis are different anyway
<zid>
MapViewOfFile etc
<zid>
mmap, C has.. nothing
<kaichiuchi>
yeah but at least I could just use std::filesystem::file_size and be done with it
<kaichiuchi>
but this is a lie
<sham1>
I wouldn't mind having an optional C API for filesystems akin to std::filesystem
<sham1>
Yeah
<sham1>
C3x when
<sham1>
C38
* sham1
pities the fools that are still using 32-bit time_t
<zid>
all fs apis suck
<zid>
let's make a new, even suckier one
<sham1>
This time over the network
<sham1>
No, I'm totally not reinventing 9p
<zid>
is that nineplan
<sham1>
That is indeed the file system communication protocol of plan9 which allowed for neat things like exposing the Acme editor's stuff as files
<zid>
but can it do
<zid>
cat /dev/cpu/0/cpuid | hexdump -C
<sham1>
Probably somehow, I'm not an expert in Plan9
<sham1>
But yeah, 9p is neat and in Plan9 allowed things like mounting the (logical) state of applications into the filesystem, making it so that external processes could be used to do $STUFF
<sham1>
So kinda similar like exposing a UNIX protocol socket or other such things for UNIX applications
<sham1>
With a tad more structure, with it being a filesystem as opposed to just a singular file descriptor
* kof123
pets gog <-- useful use of cat
<kof123>
surely that is a useless use of cat hexdump -C < ... ?
<pog>
shouldn't you be using stat() to get file size on posix?
<zid>
ye
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<zid>
fstat stat stat64
<zid>
take your pick
<pog>
the stat family
<sham1>
Probably fstat if you have a FILE* as you can just get the FD out of that and then use fstat
<pog>
yeh
<zid>
statl64_r
<kaichiuchi>
stat() on POSIX, GetFileSize(Ex)() on win32
<sham1>
Google doesn't even
<zid>
It was an parody function
<sham1>
Ah, I see
<kaichiuchi>
seek to end, ftell, rewind for weak minds
<sham1>
Very successful parody
<zid>
it was very belief
<kaichiuchi>
(and by that I mean "god I hate everything")
<zid>
because you don't wanna write 2 lines inside two different ifdefs?
<kaichiuchi>
i already did
<kaichiuchi>
i just hate having to do it.
<zid>
you've spent longer bitching about it than you did writing it
<kaichiuchi>
yes
<kaichiuchi>
that's how I roll
<sham1>
Based
<pog>
hell yeah
<pog>
bitching about code is way more fun than writing it
<zid>
pog: heat is the other kind of trans siberian
<zid>
aka poruguese
<sham1>
Speaking of bitching about code, tomorrow back to work. Woo
<zid>
how many j-novel club coins do you get for that sham
<sham1>
Do I look like a weeb to you
<pog>
rekt
<zid>
yes?
<sham1>
Anyway, I work at 50% time (at a minimum) and at that rate I get about a 1000 euros. So about 2000 euros were I full-time
<zid>
Okay you have permission to lavish me with gifts
<zid>
it wouldn't be finanically responsible for gog to do it, even though I deserve it
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<Clockface>
i was able to beat GCC by like 0.5% to 3% on a thing that loops 1 billion times
<zid>
sounds like measurement error
<sham1>
^
<Clockface>
for a program that literally only loops i saw an improvement
<Clockface>
i ran both a few dozen times
<Clockface>
in most cases the hand written one beat it by a tiny tiny margin
<Clockface>
i dont think its practical in most cases
<Clockface>
thats just running their program with extra steps
<zid>
often fewer steps
<zid>
weirdly
<GeDaMo>
Fused micro-ops! :P
<zid>
my cpu's view of what a register move is and mine is *very* different
<zid>
it mainly just deletes them and rewrites all references
<zid>
zen4 revived zen2's memory renamer I hear
<zid>
zen3 officially bad and smells
<sham1>
https://godbolt.org/z/sxq6GKaME What I like is that C++ just optimised the loop away, while the equivalent C thing actually loops
<bslsk05>
godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<zid>
is that collatz
<sham1>
Yes
<zid>
calling it in advance: it's collatz, C++ has infinite loops being UB so knows to take the only valid return path
<zid>
*clicks*
<zid>
yep, collatz UB :P
<sham1>
But if the language is changed to C, it doesn't do that
<zid>
infinite loops are not UB in C
<pog>
zid do you want $5 so you can get your weeb books
<kaichiuchi>
i did not know that infinite loops were UB in C++ for a very, very long time
<kaichiuchi>
an embarrassingly long time
<zid>
pog: I have no way to give them it
<zid>
j-novel club bad website
<pog>
o
<pog>
sorry
<zid>
omg pog made j-novel club's website
<zid>
now I know who to blame
<pog>
:P
<zid>
apology NOT ACCEPT, make them add a page where you can gift subs or something
<pog>
if i gift you does that make you my sub
<zid>
yes
<pog>
lol
<zid>
I like being held.
<zid>
cover me in moss and nuke me in the microwave
<jimbzy>
A rolling zid gathers no moss.
<zid>
oh hey, a brand new 'group' just appeared
<zid>
'faratnis'
<kaichiuchi>
I am really trying to use vim
<kaichiuchi>
I swear
<zid>
grats
<kaichiuchi>
I am trying to learn it but I don't understand how anyone can be productive in it
<zid>
did you beat vimtutor yet
<kaichiuchi>
no
<sham1>
You'll get used t oit
<zid>
the boss is pretty hard
<zid>
but you need to get under 25% equip load and use more rolls
<sham1>
Oh so vim is Hades
<kaichiuchi>
ah, you too are a dark souls fan
<zid>
wow sham1 you totally missed that reference
<zid>
CLEARLY dark souls
<sham1>
Look, I don't play difficult games
<kaichiuchi>
i struggled deeply with maliketh
<kof123>
^ +equip load. login over dialup at <insert baud here> and see which editor you prefer
<zid>
dark souls isn't even difficult
<kaichiuchi>
you are so full of shit
<sham1>
Obviously ed for if you have low enough baud
<kaichiuchi>
it absolutely is difficult
<zid>
what dark souls is, is like.. obtuse?
<zid>
Once you learn it, the execution is really really simple
<sham1>
Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of the Souls genre
<sham1>
Soulborne*
<zid>
but you have to either cheat and look shit up, or grind your face into concrete for a few hours
<zid>
in order to get the knowledge you need to trivialize it
<zid>
but once you have, you feel like a fucking god
<zid>
It's a bit like world of warcraft tbh, it's a TOTALLY different game now, because people get how to play WoW now
<kaichiuchi>
i don't understand how people find out all of the hidden shit in an hour after a game's release
<kaichiuchi>
someone please explain it to me
<zid>
easy, they're not doing that
<kaichiuchi>
they must be
<zid>
They are not.
<zid>
Things called "review copies" exist
<kaichiuchi>
people had elden ring down to a science within a few hours
<zid>
elder ring is a) dark souls 3.1
<zid>
and b) had months of open testing
<zid>
elden*
<zid>
so it both uses established data formats you can flood a wiki with via a script in seconds, and b, we literally had the game to play for months before launch
<bslsk05>
kaichiuchi.github.io: kaichiuchi's corner of the world
<kaichiuchi>
does that look ok to everyone's browser
<zid>
asked random guy who was uploading ebooks if he could do the one I was missing and he said no, then uploaded it 5 mins later anyway, ?? but I win I guess
<kof123>
looks ok in lynx
<pog>
you're working on a gb emulator? zid why aren't you working with him
<pog>
also it looks fine on firefox
<zid>
I wrote mine ages ago
<zid>
he saw it at the time
<kaichiuchi>
I just keep questioning everything and therefore never get anything but
<geist>
zid: oh hey finally loaded up the made in abyss soundtrack. sounds pretty good!
<geist>
also note to self: need to watch the movie and then S2
<zid>
good good
<zid>
yes you do
<geist>
it's just kinda dark so have to make sure i'm pretty mentally ready for it
<zid>
s3 tame at least
<zid>
turns back into regular cooking anime
<geist>
whaaaa!
<zid>
you didn't know made in abyss is a cooking anime?
<geist>
Cooking with Mitty!
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<zid>
Cooking with goggy
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<geist>
yay teh gog
<gog>
hihi
<geist>
back to work after 2.5 weeks off!
<geist>
i forgot what work is
<gog>
nice
<sham1>
Work? Is it a food?
<gog>
i learned a lot about sql in a very short time today
<zid>
sham1: order me a pizza pls
<zid>
I got offered to share half an oven pizza but they burnt it so now I have no pizza
<gog>
dang
<gog>
i had a crispy chicken bowl with lots of daikon and cabbage and hot suace
<zid>
I've never had japanese
<gog>
sad
<zid>
There's a japanese resturant int he city but it's very fancy
<zid>
black marble
<geist>
you should at least get sushi sometime to experience it, since it's a fairly unique thing
<geist>
i dont think i ever had sushi until i was in my 20s, since it at the time did not exist in texas
<zid>
and it's mainly chinese food anyway afaik :P
<geist>
and thsi is why you should experience it, because you dont know
<zid>
you payin?
<geist>
if i were in town, sure
<zid>
does wagamama count as japanese
<geist>
looks like one of those japanese fusion things. maybe, i guess
<geist>
kinda like how a PF Changs counts here, but really isn't very good
<zid>
this is stupidly expensive and I probably wouldn't like most of it
<gog>
i mean what i had today was like korean fusion
<gog>
not japanese
<zid>
daikons and grilled chicken is all japanese people at
<zid>
eat
<zid>
I've seen tv
<gog>
i'm having fish for dinner again
* gog
chomp fishy
<geist>
yah good korean food is great too. can be very spicy
<gog>
yes
<geist>
nom!
<zid>
we mainly use indian food for that niche
<gog>
love the spicy garlic soy sauce the place i went to today has
<zid>
lots of expat indians here running resturants
<gog>
yeh we have good indian food here too but it's often not spicy enough
<gog>
i need spicy spicy
<Ermine>
Go to India, they have spicy everything
<geist>
well great indian food is also yum
<geist>
had some goat curry the other day that was amazing
<zid>
I want a stack of poppadoms so high the bottom one has been crushed
<zid>
and some extra spicy madras
<zid>
and pilau
<geist>
one of the bummers of moving out into the woods like i did is the restaurants here and far and few between and very expensive
<geist>
so i rarely eat out
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<mjg>
no sensible delivery options?
<zid>
That requires hiring sherpas
<zid>
to trek them up half a mountain to his cabin
<zid>
14 lives have been lost so far, but he keeps ordering
<geist>
mjg: well sure, but that makes it even more expensive
<mjg>
> sensible
<geist>
it's not the getting to it, it's that there's only like one indian place, one thai place, one japanese place, and they're all mostly middling quality and expensive
<mjg>
sounds like a good neighborhood
<mjg>
;)
<mjg>
sounds a lot like my hometown, except you don't even have any of the oriental stuff
<mjg>
the most 'exotic' it gets is pizza
<kaichiuchi>
in my area some japanese immigrants from tokyo opened up a sushi restaurant here
<geist>
and it's not that the ethnic stuff is pushed out, there just really arent very many good restaursans. or the ones that are good are hyper expensive ones designed for tourists
<kaichiuchi>
i've been going to that restaurant more than I should.
<zid>
why's it always sushi
<zid>
I wanna try udon
<gog>
udon wanna miss it
<zid>
and weird vegetables I will definitely hate
<geist>
that's part of the problem, the island is also a tourist spot, so most of the stuff that does exist is tuned for separating tourists from money
<geist>
ie, no real Local Dives
<kaichiuchi>
(don't know why the hell you'd want to come to america if you live in tokyo, but)
<mjg>
oh man
<mjg>
geist: are you in hawaii?
<zid>
tokyo's expensive as fuck an you will work yourself to death
<geist>
mjg: oh hawaii would probably have some fantastic local spots once you find it
<geist>
no, it's just an island across from seattle
<zid>
so if you don't mind dodging gunfire, the US can work
<mjg>
lol
<mjg>
i think you are missing on life twice here
<geist>
so tourists are like day tourists that take a ferry over and piddle around
<geist>
lots of antique stores, expensive restaurants, etc
<kaichiuchi>
i live in the US
<gog>
rvk is basically entirely for tourists now it seems
<gog>
or at least the parts that are fun and interesting
<mjg>
geist: so what's good about the place for day to day life
<geist>
woods. lots of trails. quiet
<mjg>
you just like the view?
<mjg>
nice
<geist>
a bit cheaper than seattle
<geist>
near family, etc
<mjg>
interstingly 's like my hometown in that regard, except perhaps you are more civilized so to speak
<geist>
i moved out at the start of the pandemic because i really was feeling caged up being trapped in a city where i couldn't do anything
<geist>
kaichiuchi: i forgot where approx are you in US? just curious
<kaichiuchi>
pennsylvania
<geist>
oh that's right, yeah
<kaichiuchi>
near philadelphia
<kaichiuchi>
not exactly a good place to live
<geist>
i have a little database in my head of people and where they generally are
<zid>
geist where am I
<zid>
help I am lost
<geist>
UK i think
<kaichiuchi>
my assumption is germany
<geist>
since you're a cheeky bastard
<mjg>
move to Baltimore
<zid>
Okay that narrows it down to 4 countries and some overseas territories at least
<mjg>
zid: so india?
<geist>
nah mrvn is germany
<zid>
so I'm either in america, europe, asia or oceania
<geist>
heat is the odd one out: portugal!
<mjg>
pl for short!
<geist>
and mjg i forget. one of those countries without enough vowels in names
<zid>
Doesn't really work as well for saying where someone is geographically with "UK" as it does with most other countries :P
<zid>
poland
<mjg>
if i could pronounce it, i would!
<geist>
zid: yeah but it's a safe bet, because if i say scotland and they're irish or whatnot they'll shank you
<mjg>
zid: nope! that's the counry of origin
<geist>
so you say UK to generally play it safe
<zid>
geist: britain, then?
<mjg>
it's not offensive to be too general?
<geist>
see it's a trap!
<zid>
UK is the country, britain is the place off of france
<geist>
yes yes i know this. but again i dont know precisey which part
<zid>
great britain is the big island, LESSER BRITAIN is what I say to get stabbed by irish people
<geist>
so UK is the overall thing
<geist>
like generally that large blob of stuff off the european mainland
<zid>
They prefer 'irish isles' but they're wrong obvs
<mjg>
you are a mad lad zid
<geist>
and yeah could be Isle of Man or something
<mjg>
zid: so what's the most offensive thing you can call an englishman?
<zid>
mjg: Happy
<mjg>
zid: by that i mean someone born and raised in london
<zid>
londoners know they're scum
<mjg>
"you scottish chap 1st gen migrant"?
<geist>
zid: anyway, you *are* in britain right? where approx?
<zid>
"DO THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IN LONDON?"
<zid>
geist: england, east of
<geist>
out in the stix?
<zid>
ye
<mjg>
east of england? that's not where the scotts are
<zid>
in some fields a bunch of distance from cmabridge
<geist>
woot. yay living in not a big city
<geist>
honestly i've only been to around london, cambridge or once a trip west to bristol
<zid>
It'd be just as easy to get to anywhere else as cambridge though, still need to do busses to train stations and take trains, either way
<geist>
i'd like to take a train up to Edinburgh some day
<zid>
Hope you brought your wallet
<geist>
yeah, dunno what the rate is now
<zid>
train to edinburgh's like £8000 each way
<geist>
well beats driving on the wrong side of the road
<geist>
i mean i love a great road trip but i'm a bit scared of dealing with both a manual stickshift and on the wrong side at the same time.
<zid>
a single from me to edin on a saturday is.. £60
<geist>
i'm sure the stickshift could get used to pretty quick (wrong arm) but not at the same time as not turning into the wrong lane
<mjg>
see, do you think they have convos like this on discord? i bet not
<mjg>
bunch of wankers
<zid>
Found one for £496
<GeDaMo>
Don't forget about the roundabouts :P
<geist>
roundabouts i'm totally fine with. i think they're great. wish we had more here
<geist>
surprisingly washington state has a fair amount of them, so enough that if you drive around here you get pretty used to them (or die)
<geist>
but roundabouts in the other direction! (i assume they're clockwise in UK?)
<zid>
anytime return ticket from me to edin, first class, £496, bargain
<zid>
no you go over the middle while honking usually
<geist>
drove through a ton of them in canada last week
<zid>
that's the spirit
<zid>
right over and through
<geist>
is kinda funny, there's a mini roundabout in town a few miles from here that is too small for large trucks to go aorund, so they specifically built it as a large speedbump so the trucks can just drive over it
<geist>
but then of course that sends a mixed message to folks that come up with it on a car
<geist>
i ean it obviously is, but you never know if someone else sees it the same way
<zid>
"Mini-roundabouts can incorporate a painted circle or a low dome but must be fully traversable by vehicles. Motorists can drive over them when there is no other traffic, but it is dangerous to do so otherwise."
<geist>
and sure enough there's this old lady that lives nearby that i've personally seen just plow straight over it more than once
<zid>
It's just a system of paint to organize drivers coming near each other
<geist>
well and removed the 4 way stop sign that was there too
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<geist>
there were a bunch in seattle that i hadn't seen before called 'traffic calming circles' which are pretty annoying
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<zid>
Although I think the rule is that if you *can* make it you should do
<geist>
basically a tree or something with a hard curb in the middle of the intersection that you h ave to drive around
<geist>
and the law on it is kinda ambiguous like 'you should drive around it like a circle but you dont have to'
<zid>
that they're annoying means they're working
<geist>
oh totally
<zid>
US has massive car-dependance issues that stops a lot of basic stuff from working
<zid>
notjustbikes has a new lovely video every few weeks because of it at least
<geist>
yeah though it varys a lot. different cities have different amounts of it. in general 'us sucks because X' vids and whatnot you see tend to present is as homogenous bad place
<geist>
but it's a huge country with lots of differing cultures and ways of doing things
<zid>
The US is genuinely like it all over
<zid>
there's nowhere to escape from it
* geist
shrugs, not gonna fall of that trap
<zid>
Name a contiguous US state without a stroad
<geist>
not interested in drilling into 'country X sucks or Y is better'
<zid>
Nobody sad anything of the sort
<geist>
aint my first rodeo
<zid>
or even came close to saying anything of the sort
<zid>
Is this the catholic guilt stuff I hear about
<geist>
haha
<geist>
CONFESS
<zid>
"someone mentioned me, I muist have been a bad boy"
<geist>
confess your pre-crime
<zid>
"US's issues are complicated so basic techniques are often not correct" "Stop saying the US sucks" <-- my reading
<geist>
sigh. sorry i just dont want to continue talking about this
<geist>
because my mind has shifted over to work, booting up and updating computers, etc
<zid>
do that then lol?
<geist>
indeed!
<geist>
that's what i am!
<zid>
My recommendation is *not* to underhandily call me a xenophobe, just don't engage in conversations you don't wanna engage in, and engage in the ones you do
<geist>
i was trying to stop the conversation so you knew to stop too, but thats my gen X coming through. i haven't learned the art of gen z ghosting people
<geist>
i find it terribly annoying when people wander off in the middle of conversations, but that's the norm nowadays i think
<zid>
Posting flamebait ain't going to stop a convo ime
<geist>
okay fine!
<geist>
i am going to disengage without admitting guilt, because
<geist>
i disagree with your assesment, but i really dont care to keep going with this. end of line.
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<kaichiuchi>
um
<kaichiuchi>
does anyone want pizza
<zid>
I already tried that
<gog>
yes
<gog>
but i'm having fish instead
<zid>
we're full circle
<zid>
gog: What's iceland like for roads? Ours are weird.
<kaichiuchi>
god you guys and your fish
<geist>
well fish *is* good
<gog>
zid: we're like the US. lousy with cars
<kaichiuchi>
fish is indeed very good
<geist>
PNW style is to just toss a bunch of salmon in it. boom local cuisine
<zid>
yea us too, not quite as stroady though
<gog>
streets are clear of snow and ice and cars can move freely, but if you're a pedestrian you're taking your life into your own hands
<gog>
we have fewer stroads
<zid>
we're like, a mix of "omg cars cars" and "actually, this is a nice place for an umbrella and some chairs"
<gog>
but we have almost as many cars per capita as the US
<zid>
Is that because of jim who owns 6 cars
<zid>
and the other 5 of you share one
<zid>
so there are 7 cars per 6 people
<gog>
mostly it's because the population is sparse except for like two districts of reykjavík
<gog>
but even all the midrises have big car parks
<zid>
The city I am closest to has half the population of iceland apparently
<gog>
yeh
<zid>
yea we thankfully mainly don't fall into the trap of actually putting parking spaces everywhere
<gog>
in any case, i don't want to have to own a car again
<gog>
i always hated it
<zid>
(just makes everybody drive to that place, and then traffic increases by 50% from people looking for parking)
<zid>
everybody hates london because you can't park :D
<gog>
wtf i love london now
<zid>
You *can* park but it's like £90/hr
<zid>
japan solves it by not allowing you to register a vehicle without somewhere to keep it
<zid>
we just make it too expensive
<kaichiuchi>
if I could avoid driving, I would
<kaichiuchi>
but it's impossible
<kaichiuchi>
we don't have fancy high speed trains everywhere like the rest of europe :(
<zid>
That's actually a weird side-issue
<zid>
most people barely interact with trains in europe also, but we don't do the weird zoning that US cities all seem to do
<zid>
where the core is all skycrapers that everybody needs to drive to, and then the outskirts are zoned for single family town houses exclusively, creating hundreds of square miles of wasted space
<zid>
Like if you pick any random map of a big US city without a subway, it's 30% parking lots
<geist>
kaichiuchi: but you still get the accela trains and whatot run through the corridor between DC and NYC though right?
<zid>
everything gets more spaced out because of them, so more cars, so wider roads, so more spaced out, so more cars
<kaichiuchi>
geist: i've never been anywhere near those trains
<geist>
ah
<geist>
seems like they'd run right through philadelphia
<zid>
gog: your road signage looks very similar to ours, did you steal it
<kaichiuchi>
well put it this way
<kaichiuchi>
I'm 60 miles away from philadelphia
<geist>
ah
<kaichiuchi>
but I commute to work
<zid>
but yea, this is VERY car-y, wow
<geist>
yeah
<kaichiuchi>
takes me about an hour
<kaichiuchi>
where I live, it's mostly known for its manufacturing enterprises
<geist>
yah that's the biggest downside of moving into the woods, i now have about an hour and a half commute, though not using a car
<zid>
also everything is apparently under construction
<geist>
but it's ferry + walking + bus
<kaichiuchi>
yeah I am shocked you moved into the woods
<kaichiuchi>
everything is far away from you
<geist>
except lots of trees and wildlife
<kaichiuchi>
how the hell is your internet even good
<geist>
it's not great
<geist>
that was a downgrade
<kaichiuchi>
yeah i'd lose it
<kaichiuchi>
heh
<geist>
oh i mean whe i was lookinga t houses maybe 50% of them i had to completely just scrub out because didn't have good network
<mjg>
geist: quite frankly your current household sounds like a long weekend getaway location
<geist>
usually crummy DSL. this one actually has cable which is kinda surprising, but cool
<mjg>
geist: not a place for actual living
<geist>
yeah, it's a tradeoff for sure. but honestly at the start of the pandemic i had no idea how long it was going to go, etc
<mjg>
well you do you man
<geist>
turned out to be a good time, because the housing market was starting to blow up
<geist>
and the interest rates on mortgages were very very low, like historically low
<mjg>
as someone who grew up in shitty conditions i appreciate not having to maintain squat
<mjg>
in my day to day
<geist>
oh totally. honestly i kinda like maintaining squat. gives me something to do
<geist>
which sounds silly, but it's how i stay sane. doing things, all the time
<mjg>
:)
<zid>
gog: jesus this is carry
<zid>
Car-y
<mjg>
geist: well if you are down to move to poland i have place just for yu man
<geist>
heh
<mjg>
geist: albeit locals don't speak english, which you may treat as an additional challenge
<geist>
i think i'm a little too old to learn a new language. actually not really. but that would be an additional challenge i wouldn't want to take on
<geist>
or at least polish... i dunno that's not my first pick of languages to be immersed in, to be honest
<zid>
I found a stroad full of carparks, iceland confirmed 51st state
<mjg>
but rly, there is this mindset that if you don't have work to do after work, you are just lazy
<mjg>
and by work after work i mean something you have to do
<geist>
yeah, i can see that. different cultures/subcultures have these different base assumptions about hard working
<mjg>
for example common in that area is burning wood and coal during winter
<geist>
anyway, on that topic, back to work!
<mjg>
so in the summer people go to their forests, cut down dead trees and so on
<mjg>
ez few weeks of work to stack up on wood
<mjg>
and then in the winter, apparent from all the snowploing by hand, you have to maintain the fire
<mjg>
's like larping in the 1800s
<mjg>
with the one exception that you have a chainsaw
<mjg>
s/apparent/apart/
<mjg>
wtf keyboard
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<geist>
heh, rebooting out of hibernation on my work workstation always takes like 15 minues. either the compression of all of the memory pages is ridicululously hard core or the decompression is terribly slow
<geist>
probably both. you can see it blipping the hard disk, but it can't take *that* long
<geist>
just about the time you give up it finishes
<mjg>
what algo?
<geist>
beats me, whatever linux is doing to squirt the hibernate state down on disk
<geist>
it's almost like it's some N^2 thing with the number of pages in the system. this machine has a fairly high amount of ram (192GB) and it seems to be particularly bad at recovering
<mjg>
not easy to trace that one, huh? :)
<geist>
yeah
<gog>
oh dang
<gog>
that's a lot of ram
<geist>
ah there we go, finished. about 10 minutes i think
<zid>
192GB in 15 seconds is >10GB/s though?
<mjg>
that's some supercomputer shit right there if you larp the 90s
<zid>
oh MINUTES
<geist>
yah
<mjg>
if i was to blindly guess
<zid>
21MB/s then :P
<mjg>
it would be that they do writes in parallel
<mjg>
and they trash the drive
<mjg>
and maybe lolo blocksize
<geist>
possible. but it's really not nailing the drive. it's blipping about once a second, maybe 20% duty cycle
<geist>
the rest is presumably uncompressing
<mjg>
i wuld not trust any blipping
<geist>
possible, but these are nvme, etc, so it's not like it has a seek time
<gog>
ostensibly all a good portion of those 192gbs are page cache
<mjg>
i mean there is lies, damned lies, politician statemetns and firmware indicators of anything
<gog>
i wonder what your actual working set is at time of hibernate
<gog>
s/is/was
<geist>
yah i'm guessing if it's smart it dumps the page cache before hibernating. looknig at top now it's about... 10GB of used ram, 38GB of buffer cache (after running some updates)
<geist>
so assuming it dumped the entire buffer cache it was really only restoring 10GB
<gog>
there's some other major inefficiency in the process then
<gog>
integrity checking?
<geist>
yeah dunno, good questoin. it could also literally be some sort of dumb N^2 thing, like it has a list of pages to restore, and it's doing some sort of linked list search for every page or something
<gog>
there are a lot of linked lists in struct page
<zid>
21MB/s is about right if it's compressed *really* good and you're on a wbeserver cpu and it's single core
<gog>
that reference struct page
<zid>
how many ghz you got
<mjg>
ok mofoz, seriously, stop handwaving and check the code
<geist>
zid: yeah i suspect it is single threaded at this point, probably restoring in some sort of pre-kernel portion
<gog>
no
<geist>
more fun to theorize before looking
<geist>
and anyway i kinda make it a point not to look at linux code
<zid>
800MHz of pure riscv power on the decompression
<mjg>
geist: right
<zid>
21MB/s would be blazing
<gog>
never look at linux
<zid>
never look at other people's code
<zid>
it'll make your stomach churn
<mjg>
bro
<mjg>
i recently tried to learn me some rust, that sent me the rabbit hole
<gog>
my own code is nauseating enough
<mjg>
rust is doing some questionable things vs stat, fstat and the rest of the family
<mjg>
... and linux is making it worse
<geist>
yup
<gog>
i wonder how my boss doesn't get sick every time i send a PR
<mjg>
rust aside, linux has a "new" syscall to getattr: statx
<geist>
mjg: though if you do have specific things that are really bugs/etc i can probably make sure they get looked at
<geist>
a few of the core team does work near my organizationally
<mjg>
geist: i wrote a patch for rust https://dpaste.com/BCQC7ZDV3 ; have not figured out how to compile it yet though :)
<bslsk05>
dpaste.com <no title>
<zid>
is rm -rf a patch
<mjg>
geist: that said, if i run into trouble getting someone to act on it, i'll be happy to prod you
<mjg>
back to the linux remark, there is no dedicated fd-based variant to get the struct
<mjg>
instead you pass the fd, "" name (not NULL!) and AT_EMPTY_PATH flag
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<mjg>
the problem with the "" name is that you suffer memory alloc/free *and* more imporantly clac/stac trip
<mjg>
the latter is quite expensive
<geist>
ah, so statx has a simpler version
<mjg>
but it is known at caller side, so to speak, that there is no name
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<mjg>
the kenrel just does not provide any way to take advantage of it
<mjg>
which i'm very negatively surprised by
<geist>
yah bummer it even accesses the string first. seems the kernel coul at least look at the flag and then simply not user copy the string pointer
<mjg>
i suspect some standard-related fuckery has something to say about the flag and specific content
<geist>
yeah and or layering
<mjg>
anyhow my proposal would be to simply tolerate NULL
<mjg>
+ the flag
<geist>
where some layer outside that doesn't know about flags already makes the copy before passing it in
<mjg>
and in that case demand a valid fd
<geist>
yah totally
<mjg>
but need to get some numbers first to justify working on it
<mjg>
all while my real work is chasing me for other numbers :s
<heat>
did we unironically create a rust-head
<mjg>
me?
<heat>
yes
<mjg>
so far the things i found in bowels of rust are rather concerning to me, but perhaps i just happened to be looking in the least good place
<mjg>
and it is not representative
<geist>
mjg seems to go right for performance, right for the jugular. drop them on a deserted island and you start optimizing the palm trees
<mjg>
anyway they are fixable so...
<mjg>
geist: look, the claim is that rust is a systems language, a 0 cost abstraction c replacement
<geist>
oh totally, i mean that in a nice way
<mjg>
geist: so i had a look and so far it is not
<geist>
agreed
<geist>
OTOH it seems that most of the die hards admit this freely but then in the next sentence say it's basically the price of safety
<mjg>
change the marketing and i'll change the tone
<mjg>
:)
<mjg>
btw glibc is also affected by it. statx is the source of truth internally all other callers use to get their data
<mjg>
and glibc switched fstat(fd, ...) to newfstatat(fd, "", AT_EMPTY_PATH, ....)
<mjg>
like wtf man
<geist>
it's part of the arm conspiracy: down with architecutres that have CLAC/STAC!
<geist>
(the arm64 equivalent is basically free)
<mjg>
oh?
<geist>
it's called PAN (priviledged access never). you can toggle the bit if you want, a-la clac/stac, and it also automatically clears the bit on exception entry so you dont have the recursion problem
<geist>
or you can just leave it set permanently and write your user_copy routine to use an alternate load/store instruction that explicitly bypasses it
<geist>
linux/etc does the latter
<geist>
the advantage of doing it second
<gog>
pan pan pan
<geist>
i always remember these 80s commercials about PAM the spray on greese thing
<heat>
mjg, iirc fstat isn't available on new archs
<bslsk05>
'80s - Pam Cooking Spray Commercial' by Retro Television Airwaves (00:00:15)
<heat>
actually, no.
<heat>
there may be some differnence
<heat>
musl's fstat also uses fstatat
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<sortie>
intel people
<sortie>
show yourself
<sortie>
I'm picking a fight
<geist>
hi sortie!
* mjg
is wearing and amd shirt
<heat>
mjg, i think I know why they use statx
<sortie>
Operator patch me through to the right multinational
<heat>
64-bit time on 32-bit archs
<heat>
:))
<mjg>
that is plausible, but useflness of statx itself is not the point of contention here
<mjg>
just the deficiency of the api
<sortie>
I got a Intel Corporation 82579LM Gigabit Network Connection (Lewisville) [8086:1502] <https://paste.ahti.space/07c960.html> and I need to find the pdf that tells me how to program the ethernet controller
<bslsk05>
paste.ahti.space <no title>
<sortie>
I only found https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/82579datasheetvol21.pdf but it seems to be about the Intel ® 82579 Gigabit Ethernet PHY and doesn't have the useful documentation on how to reset and initialize the controller, like I have in the pdfs for the older 825xx devices I got
<zid>
yea it's a pain
<zid>
these docs are all over the damn place with whether they cover the regs, or the phy, or both
<sortie>
When I use my driver in my laptop, it resets the device and I get an interrupt when the link is coming up, but the PHY doesn't respond when I try to read its registers, and the receive and transmit of packets necer happen
<sortie>
So I think I'm not initializing the PHY properly and my working hypothesis is that something changed in these newer models and I'm trying to figure out what that is