klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<gog> hi
<kaichiuchi> hi
<heat> hi
<kaichiuchi> hi
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<moon-child> hi
<jimbzy> hi
<gog> hi
<kaichiuchi> interesting
<kaichiuchi> someone got gcc 11.2 running on windows 98
<kaichiuchi> well, 11.1.0
<heat> twisted
<kaichiuchi> awesome*
<gog> terrifying
<mjg> jolly good sir
<jimbzy> That just made me think of DJGPP
<kaichiuchi> the latest stable is 7 years old sadly
<jimbzy> I think GCC was around 3.x back when I used it?
<jimbzy> Then I learned about cygwin and minGW.
<kaichiuchi> i wonder what the gcc version was when I was born
<kaichiuchi> ah, 2.6.x
<jimbzy> I think I predate gcc.
<kaichiuchi> '87 was the first beta release
<kaichiuchi> my brother predates gcc
<mjg> i predate gcc and feel bad about it
<jimbzy> Yeah, I'm Bell-breakup old... :(
<kaichiuchi> god i'm fucking young
<jimbzy> You don't have to lord it over us...
* kaichiuchi waves his staff
<heat> GCC 3.2.1 here
<heat> why are you all so old
<heat> outdated even
<mjg> gcc 2.9.5 for life
<kaichiuchi> idea for osdev forums: I'm <gcc version> years old!
<heat> idea for osdev forums: rm -rf /srv
<mjg> idea for osdev forums: migrate to discord
<kaichiuchi> second
<kaichiuchi> who even bothers with forums anymore
<kaichiuchi> I guess if you want something that you can just google and poof, it's there
<kaichiuchi> you're not sifting through 40000 pages of chat logs
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<heat> gog, what does the B in BSD stand for
<gog> bondage
<heat> mjg, checks out?
<gog> gcc 1.13
<kaichiuchi> i still say someone should make a BASED
<gog> my new OS is going to be called CRINGE
<kaichiuchi> jimbzy: if you want to feel really old, someone on r/whatisthisthing posted a TV antenna
<kaichiuchi> so there's that.
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<jimbzy> Hah
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<jimbzy> My last analog TV antenna got repurposed for my radio scanner. Most of the frequencies I was interested in fit in the VHF band I, which is around 45-90MHz.
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<epony> heat, the B in BSD stands for Berkeley where the CSRG worked to free UNIX
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Computer Systems Research Group - Wikipedia
<epony> a couple of bits more capable people than the modern "complainer-whiner _devvelopers_devvelopers_devvelopers_devvelopers_"
<epony> it's also the place that gave you Berkeley RISC (in which you pledge your oath to new freedom and devote your souls)
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Berkeley RISC - Wikipedia
<heat> bazinga
<epony> there is a considerable number of computer awards given to professors and alumni of that Bunch
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: University of California, Berkeley - Wikipedia
<epony> note SPICE being one of the more important projects
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<heat> geist, got riscv smp
<heat> easy
<zid> heat now officially a risc simp?
<heat> always have been
<zid> rust on risc when
<heat> that would be orgasmic
<Mutabah> zid: riscv?
<epony> when the prophet comes back to Earth with his 666 hairy furgins
<bslsk05> ​github.com: rust_os/Kernel/Core/arch/riscv64 at master · thepowersgang/rust_os · GitHub
<zid> Mutabah: Living the meme^Wdream
<Mutabah> closer to meme with that arch... although it was fun
<heat> this is a silly architecture for silly people
<epony> not enough silly cones
<epony> need more weak CPUs to make one average
<epony> you join them with thermal paste and now you got progress
<zid> Hey think of how many cool casio watches you'll have an OS for
<epony> citizen for the zen
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<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Cerebras - Wikipedia
<geist> heat: ah you're using SBI and whatnot for the TLB shootdowns?
<geist> and the cross cpu ipis?
<heat> i'm not using the tlb shootdown feature yet, just doing IPIs with SBI
<geist> ah and doing the IPI shootdown a la x86?
<heat> yes
<heat> a vintage shootdown
<epony> is it not called flushing the cache / table
<heat> also fwiw I think you need to have the vintage shootdown code
<heat> unless you explicitly require that SBI extension
<geist> yeah makes sense
<geist> though i think requiring it is not a terrible idea
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Translation lookaside buffer - Wikipedia
<heat> geist, idk, it's hard to gauge the presence of these extensions on systems
<geist> it's hard to find systems
<heat> facts
<heat> i've briefly considered porting onyx to riscv32 simply because they're that much more accessible
<geist> well fwiw it's basically identical as i'm sure you're aware
<epony> which is the same in emulation
<heat> yes but I have no answer to the lack of virtual address space
<bslsk05> ​www.righto.com: Inside the 8086 processor's instruction prefetch circuitry
<heat> git grep -E "(PHYS_TO_VIRT)|(PAGE_TO_VIRT)" | wc -l
<heat> 117
<heat> I would need to replace most of these with some possible low-mem/high-mem logic
<epony> you can drop the middle to braces
<epony> "two"
<epony> and use ' quotation
<moon-child> riscv? lol fusion
<epony> not lol, but con fusion
<heat> hm?
<bslsk05> ​wiki.qemu.org: Documentation/Platforms/RISCV - QEMU
<geist> heat: no idea
<heat> anyway re: 32-bit, it should port fine if I drop the 64-bit assumptions in most places
<geist> yeah
<heat> some types may hurt, but I would assume the memory thing will bite me
<geist> yeah it's more of a 32bit vs 64bit thing. if you haven'tported to 32bit before then that will be most of the problem
<heat> i don't know if I want to infect it with horrible highmem stuff
<heat> being able to rely on a direct map of memory is very nice
<geist> yeah
<geist> for LK i just do a 2:2 split in that case and limit the amount of physical ram to 1GB
<heat> and otoh I have perfectly fine available arm64 hardware that's going to be much faster
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<ddevault> the more I work with EFI the less I hate it
<Mutabah> That's stockholm syndrome
<ddevault> wstr is bad
<ddevault> PE/COFF is bad
<Mutabah> GUIDs are ... meh?
<ddevault> some services are dumb
<ddevault> rest is pgood
<Mutabah> Yeah.
<Mutabah> It's what makes me sad about UEFI...
<Mutabah> It has a lot of great ideas, but some glaring warts
<ddevault> spec is pgood too
<Mutabah> E.g. GPT - Guids everywhere!...
<ddevault> guids are fine
<Mutabah> but none of those GUID fields are "filesystem format"
<Mutabah> (I like the idea of using GUIDs, even if they can be a pain)
<\Test_User> requiring a fat partition is meh, requiring that no one invents a new disk partitioning scheme if they still want to boot is meh
<ddevault> EFI has a weird GUID format though
<ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requires FAT
<Mutabah> I think the ESP has to be FAT?
<Mutabah> well.. for maximum compatability
<ddevault> yeah in practice it's FAT
<ddevault> but I don't think it has to be, unless I'm not finding the relevant parts of the spec
<ddevault> oh no
<ddevault> FAT is required
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<ddevault> does ARM provide some kind of always-available timer I can use for context switching or will I have to implement drivers for SoC-specific clock hardware
<j`ey> look up CNTFREQ_EL0, CNYVCT_EL0 et al
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<ddevault> ty
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<ddevault> looks like firefox isn't having it with the ARM PDF today
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<Ermine> ddevault: the same one on which zathura failed recently?
<ddevault> yeah
<ddevault> xpdf always opens it but has awful UX
<ddevault> firefox opens it sometimes and is a bit better
<kaichiuchi> oh wow
<kaichiuchi> i3-gaps got merged with i3
<kaichiuchi> about time
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<ddevault> quite enjoying the aarch64 port work
<ddevault> at least once the bullshit was done with
<ddevault> probably will end up at about 3,000 lines per arch (8,000 lines of portable code)
<sham1> kaichiuchi: it's only been, what, a decade? Or maybe half? Point being, finally
<kaichiuchi> a decade my guess
<kaichiuchi> i do like i3
<Ermine> ddevault: cool!
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<heat> ddevault, 3kloc for a single arch is remarkably small
<bslsk05> ​git.sr.ht: ~sircmpwn/helios - sourcehut git
<heat> I've got almost 10KLOC in x86 code alone
<ddevault> see files with +x86_64 or +aarch64 in the path for arch-specific code if you're curious
<ddevault> note this is a microkernel
<ddevault> userspace also has some arch-specific code
<ddevault> nowhere near 10kloc in total though
<ddevault> hare tends to lend itself to brevity
<ddevault> well, most of the time.
<heat> riscv, as the trashy architecture it is, has 4KLOC
<ddevault> plus around 400 lines of assembly per arch
<ddevault> well, might want to clarify
<ddevault> these figures don't include the bootloader
<ddevault> nor portable code which happens to only be used by one arch, like the FDT parser
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<heat> yeah same
<heat> actually I wasn't including the headers, I should do that
<heat> 4905K for riscv64, 11K for x86_64
<heat> s/4905K/5K/g
<heat> me dumb dumb
<Andrew> So I was registering for an account and I answered "The program first loaded off of a disk when booting your computer is known as a" with "bootloader"... it wants "boot loader" lol
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<heat> ddevault, do you have a riscv system with musl handy? I've noticed you wrote part of the riscv code and I want to test something
<ddevault> heat: send me an email and I'll get back to you, sir@cmpwn.com
<ddevault> hour or so of setup overhead
<ddevault> you can also quite easily set up a riscv alpine chroot with qemu-user
<heat> does qemu-user support the full range of clone(2) arguments?
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<heat> j`ey, hello CEO of linux, what is this? https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/latest/source/kernel/fork.c#L2784
<bslsk05> ​elixir.bootlin.com: fork.c - kernel/fork.c - Linux source code (v6.1.2) - Bootlin
<j`ey> Architecture has tls passed as the 4th argument of clone(2) not the 5th one.
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<heat> i know, i'm asking the why
<j`ey> you asked what :P
<heat> 4 different clone signatures????
<j`ey> no idea!
<j`ey> ABI issues.. / accidents? idk
<heat> arm, arm64, riscv, x86 all have CLONE_BACKWARDS except for x86_64, which has none of these
<heat> s390 has BACKWARDS2, microblaze has BACKWARDS3
<Ermine> Where can one find microblaze devices?
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<heat> ddevault, ok just tested with a small dash compile on qemu-user, thanks for the idea
<ddevault> np
<heat> how do you send patches? git send-email to the ML?
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<kaichiuchi> hi
<Ermine> \o/
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<epony> that's not very nice but everyone got to use some low quality something Jan03 1052<ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requireJan03 1052<ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requires FAT
<epony> many arm-SoC devices require some "fat" partition to boot too
<epony> the DOS artefacts and thinkos are going to be carried forward until someone knocks that into UNIX-compatible repacement
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: EFI system partition - Wikipedia
<epony> "The EFI system partition is formatted with a file system whose specification is based on the FAT file system and maintained as part of the UEFI specification; therefore, the file system specification is independent from the original FAT specification." --I like how this says nothing.
<epony> now FAT later THIN
<Ermine> You can edit that.
<epony> supposedly you can edit your newspeak-BIOS/*EFI too
<Ermine> Wdy,
<Ermine> Wdym
<epony> the reality: you get what the board design technology team picked as firmware chip vendor specification in some "former" and unkempt version
<epony> and.. later better ;-) as usual with 1-2 years of minimal tweaks like a digit here or an addition in a table there to fix the "stupid assumptions of fixed enumeration of hardware"
<kaichiuchi> this is why UNIX-HATERS is still partially relevant
<epony> it isn't ;-)
<epony> that's a bunch of LISP loonies
<epony> who wnat single address space application data and code mixed and wiping each others brains
<epony> you can't get stupider than that.. suppose your microprocessor executed data as instructions..
<epony> yep, that's the level of "unix-haters" club of "can't find new character generators aesthetic enough for MY TASTE"
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: DMR was right in his preface of this: there are valid points, but they are hidden under piles of insults and whatnot.
<kaichiuchi> yeah
<epony> it's not an insult if you "pay and expect quality"
<epony> UNIX was not cheap
<epony> but LISP machines were MORE EXPENSIVE and CRAPPIER
<epony> so envy and mini-achievement syndrome
<epony> it's more like "we like some other commercial simplified adapted and dumbified work, because we can't have our ideal systems, so you will get criticism until you become our ideal system, now work on our command"
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<Ermine> Sendmail chapter is true. Sendmail crappiness is why DJB made qmail
<epony> of course, applications can do whatever they like and have needs for the system
<kaichiuchi> Ermine: I think at least 40% (pulled out of my ass) of this document is still relevant
<epony> "from the system"
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<epony> if the system gets the needs of the applications supported and then the applications do stupid things like reserve all memory and start doing in application space memory management, what can you expect.. zero overhead?"
<kaichiuchi> the file system chapter is completely obsolete
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I don't think relevance level is that high. Also, there's a non-trivial of controversial stuff (like the chapter on user friendliness)
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<gog> mewe
<kaichiuchi> again, it depends
<epony> it's an old commercial book in the anti-UNIX philosophy club
<kaichiuchi> there’s a reason there’s only one unix in commercial use for the general public (mac)
<heat> unix fucking sucks but no one is ready for that conversation
<kaichiuchi> yeah i’m afraid of this war
<epony> well you can do better than that, that's what Linux tries to do
<heat> it's user hostile because programmers are user hostile
<epony> and it almost does not suck, but the version 1 of everything is brain-damaged
<epony> no such thing
<Ermine> OTOH, skarnet said wise thing, something: "that's why I don't agree with the Unix haters - we don't agree on the definition of the term even"
<heat> "just use the command line" - nerds who use the command line for a living
<epony> programmers are users of their programs
<kaichiuchi> Linux will never make it on the desktop
<gog> fuck users
<kaichiuchi> forever
<gog> but but
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<gog> this is the year
<gog> Ermine: yes
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
<epony> and are friendly to each other, because there is no other way to help diagnose and solve problems
<heat> i don't care what kind of ptsd experiences you have, windows and macOS just fucking work
<gog> the NT kernel is good actually
<epony> you're an idiot
<kaichiuchi> i agree
<heat> you don't need to manually assemble your system like in linux
<heat> even ubuntu needs hand guidance for basic shit
<heat> (it's not just arch, which I do use, btw)
<kaichiuchi> my dad uses ubuntu and he’s 75
<heat> i bet your dad doesn't play video games
<kaichiuchi> but how much effort do you think i put into making it just work for him
<gog> i do play video games on linux and it's ok mostly
<heat> much
<epony> this argument is "integration is not well integrated" and you're using a non-integrated "assembly" (bundling) of non-integrated parts
<kaichiuchi> it took multiple days to make it super easy for him
<Ermine> heat: the best system for gaming is still Windows
<heat> absolutely
<kaichiuchi> i refuse to play games on Linux
<heat> or productivity tasks
<gog> i refuse to play games on Windows
<heat> people that need to get shit done don't use linux
<epony> so, nobody is guilty for not having that integration, that's how GNU rolls the dice
<jbowen> lol
<gog> i use Windows for work
<heat> when I have an important interview, I use windows
<Ermine> heat: for everything else I use linux
<epony> they though piecemeal development with extras is going to be superior and everyone will adopt that, and it kind of happened
<jbowen> Yeah, I don't have any Windows devices; everything runs Linux or BSD
<kaichiuchi> there’s a reason Linux has not taken over, in any reasonable way, the desktop space
<gog> the only actual complaint i have is that i can't get my HDMI port to work in xorg without having to log out and log back into my session
<gog> which is fucking nonsense
<kaichiuchi> unless you are a nerd
<kaichiuchi> and the reason for that is cultural
<heat> one of my interviewers a year ago ran late to the interview because linux audio
<bslsk05> ​drewdevault.com: What desktop Linux needs to succeed in the mainstream
<heat> he also had multiple issues with basic shit like bluetooth headphones
<kaichiuchi> it’s simple
<jbowen> There are never Windows issues
<kaichiuchi> if you have to open a terminal
<kaichiuchi> you
<kaichiuchi> failed
<zid> windows issues are normalized
<kaichiuchi> you should NEVER EVER EVER have to open a terminal and type commands to change something
<heat> 100%
<jbowen> lol
<gog> normalize having issues
<epony> commercial adapted systems btw, are stemmping from DOS which is a rework of CP/M which is an adapted primitive UNIX clone, that's on the DOS side, and on the MAC side, things are more UNIX-like but intentionally not UNIX
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I concur
<gog> normalize being slightly broken
<zid> windows did it, so can you
<kaichiuchi> you can lol all you want but you’re in the 2% of people on this planet
<epony> so the commercial systems are not that much different, only the are incompatible and dumbified variants
<kaichiuchi> there’s nothing wrong with making a system usable for users, and programmers
<kaichiuchi> because they’re the same thing
<epony> but they have tighter integration
<heat> i have many friends that don't know how to use a computer besides basic shit like "use the web browser, use windows 10's email client to send email, download thing, open in microsoft office"
<epony> so you're comparing integration "end result"
<kaichiuchi> right
<zid> heat: good news, they're optimizing for those people
<heat> and these are 20 year olds
<jbowen> Sure, give them a ChromeOS device
<zid> which is why 'changing your ip' is now behind 18 UI steps
<epony> rather than system design and system implementation and system capabilities / services
<heat> people don't need to change their ip
<heat> nerds do
<zid> subtract 3 from current_version and that's how many generations of UI you need to go through
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I think programmers have larger bullshit tolerance treshold. I tolerate bugs that happen on my linux here and there, but no way my mom or granny are going to use this
<heat> normal people do not need to open the windows settings
<kaichiuchi> imagine going to a doctor and they hand you the chemical formula for the medicine you need and they say “do it yourself”
<kaichiuchi> i want to not suffer thanks
<epony> now, there is an old saying which goes about "idiots" too and it's roughly like this: "If you design your system to be fool proof and idiot proof and perfectly fool-idiot proof, only that kind of users you will get"
<kaichiuchi> Ermine: but you shouldn’t tolerate it either
<ddevault> heat: yes, send patches via email to the mailing list
<epony> which is translated into "users are barred from system development"
<kaichiuchi> i get really upset if something like my sound suddenly stops working a la heat’s interviewer
<heat> imagine going to a doctor and he needs help figuring out what you have so he gives you a manual so you two start figuring things out
<gog> honestly i would use windows if it wasn't possible at any moment that they'll start using it as an advertising platform
<kaichiuchi> they already do
<gog> there you go
<heat> ddevault, yeah figured it out, thanks anyway
<kaichiuchi> i can’t say that windows is turning out great either
<gog> i don't want to be marketed at anymore than i already am
<epony> that's why they accept "bug reports and whine reports" and resolve them with "if you're a larger business you will pay us, otherwise wait your turn.. indefinitely"
<heat> ddevault, (it's a patch implementing vfork for riscv, if you want to try it out)
<kaichiuchi> no i agree
<zid> My current plan is to use w7 until it physically stops being possible
<kaichiuchi> also the state of affairs is bizarre
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I've got used to them, and really fatal stuff happens really rarely. Also there's a lot of bullshit I don't want to tolerate on Windows
<zid> then become a monk
<kaichiuchi> I compiled the minecraft-server port on BSD
<heat> lmao bsd
<kaichiuchi> some dependency required cups
<epony> and that practice has taught the "unix-haters" group to "complain and whine" ;-) but not participate and also, demand their "application address space system designs with a user interface that is convenient"
<kaichiuchi> i cried
<zid> Sounds like BSD needs USE flag.
<kaichiuchi> do you think it’s any better with a USE flag?
<kaichiuchi> i don’t think so
<heat> imagining your mom needing to compile software to install things
<zid> Imagine how much better computers would be
<kaichiuchi> shut up
<gog> if my wife can do it so can your mom
<heat> "kaichiuchi, what's -O3 -march=native and why do these people online tell me to use it?"
<zid> Users are always the problem, especially shit users
<zid> they get pandered to
<kaichiuchi> they’re not the problem
<kaichiuchi> they’re the whole point
<kaichiuchi> .
<Ermine> Actually, end users don't care whether their system is UNIX or not. Systems just need to help people satisfy their needs
<zid> kaichiuchi thinks web 3.0 is the best thing ever
<kaichiuchi> including yourself
<heat> zid trolling
<jbowen> Your mom can learn about compiler optimizations
<zid> heat: am not trolling
<kaichiuchi> here’s the thing
<heat> Ermine, 100%
<kaichiuchi> really good products don’t require you to know anything about their internals
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: 200%
<kaichiuchi> now, you can fuck with it if you want to
<kaichiuchi> you should have that right
<heat> Ermine, while some people bikeshed about purity and simplicity (cough cough skarnet cough cough musl), other people build products
<kof123> "imagine going to a doctor" and noone knows what the ingredients are, its top secret. im confused, are we arguing for or against witch doctors as opposed to "science" ?
<epony> the point is, neither GNU, nor Linux kernel in the middle of it, are tightly integrated and same "cohesive" developer designs software releases
<kof123> (from posted excerpt)
<epony> so you need better standards and better standards compliance
<heat> kof123, you don't have the chemical formula for much of your medicina :))
<heat> medicine*
<kof123> yes, so the science argument is bunk
<kaichiuchi> i have a mac for one reason
<kaichiuchi> it’s a unix that works
<epony> and that is missing, because commerce does not inform you how it designs applications internally (but there is tight integration and their own internal standards on this peace-meal development)
<kaichiuchi> kof123: you’re taking it too literally
<kof123> blaming the user lol
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<kof123> that was quick lol
<kof123> unity of opposites FTW
<heat> wha
<epony> but it's not a unix, this "mac" is a mach which is a different kernel
<kaichiuchi> uh?
<epony> and its interfaces are not the same neither its operation
<kaichiuchi> the point is nerds want the whole world to be an IKEA store
<kaichiuchi> it doesn’t work
<epony> so it's more like "a HURD" done by commerce
<epony> a butt-hurd
<jbowen> And macs try really hard to hide the unix-y bits
<kaichiuchi> that’s correct
<Ermine> heat: I still support both. I still care about musl and skaware. At least skarnet cares about both simplicity and functionality.
<epony> that's incorrect
<kaichiuchi> that’s what SHOULD happen
<heat> they do not? open the terminal?
<epony> mac is not unix
<heat> they are just not hopelessly broken
<heat> and actually have aesthetic
<jbowen> lol
<epony> it's a mashup of non-unix with unix-descendant userland
<heat> linux DEs are ugly as far and are broken as fuck
<kaichiuchi> heat: i think he means that mom and dad don’t know anything about a terminal or unix
<epony> none of which are unix
<epony> and it lacks all unix properties
<heat> s/far/fuck/g typo much
<jbowen> If your idea of aesthetic is some polly pocket bullshit
<kaichiuchi> not that we can’t get access
<epony> like open designs and standards compliant interfaces
<epony> so it's a windows-like commercial derivative
<gog> my whole aesthetic is polly pocket bullshit
<heat> jbowen, the market thinks I'm right /shrug
<kaichiuchi> put it this way
<kof123> kaichiuchi: in fairness, whatever ye bind. people will like what reflects them. any single answer is bunk.
<Ermine> Also, Unix is such an underdefined system so every behaviour of any Unix-like system out there is considered broken by someone
<heat> the 300000 r/unixporn macOS clones also think I'm right
<epony> there is really no doffirence between DOS/WIN and DOS/MAC
<kaichiuchi> would you buy a car or build your own
<kof123> kaichiuchi: is another way to put that. any separation of science and religion is in the eye of the beholder
<kof123> or only modern times
<kof123> (from the quote)
<gog> kaichiuchi: i would ride public transportation
<kof123> of course people with different philosphies will disagree
<kof123> monotheism does not work
<kof123> does not exist
<gog> buszinga
<jbowen> Getting a bunch of morons to agree with something isn't difficult; look at US politics
<kaichiuchi> there you go again
<Ermine> heat: re DEs, Plasma is good actually
<kaichiuchi> you’re calling users morons
<Ermine> KDE connect is a pure gold
<kaichiuchi> some of them actually are, yes
<epony> UNIX is defined, as system interfaces and standards that appeared AFTER it was done by the original laboratory work (Research UNIX)
<kaichiuchi> but someone who says “i want to plug it in and it just fucking works” is not wrong
<gog> i love kdeconnect but it does something weird with google messages now and starts new conversations with me when i try to reply from my computer
<epony> it's also a realisation of the C language
<heat> Ermine, my plasma spazzes out every hour or so
<kaichiuchi> when you’re delivering a product it should be stable and not complicated whatsoever
<zid> >kde >qt >C++
<zid> Found your problem
<Ermine> (and KDE Connect happened earlier than analoguous Windows app)
<heat> this is using a fucking i915 driver, the bestest openest sourceiest driver
<Ermine> heat: at least Nate tries to convince devs to fix bugs
<gog> breh use modesetting
<kaichiuchi> i like nate
<gog> 915 is dead
<heat> also has a bug sometimes where I alt-tab and things start scrolling in the new window
<epony> and the other important property of UNIX is that it's comprised of tools which are languages and use compiler construction toolkits internally
<epony> which is not how an application extensions to DOS or MACH work
<Ermine> heat: I have issues with i1915 too. But my main PC runs with amd and Plasma does not crash on it)
<kaichiuchi> god i couldn’t imagine shipping one of our products to customers
<kaichiuchi> with the idea that they have to know the internal s
<epony> and the NT kernel is not some special unique "superior technology" either, it's just a mix between micro-kernels and traditional kernels for parts of the system
<epony> it crashes a lot too
<kof123> ^^^ thats not a problem, but projecting this on everyone else is "have to know the internals"
<epony> mach crashes too
<kof123> different markets, different targets
<kof123> the one size fits all is the devil
<epony> yep, that's a general conclusions, different target audiences
<kaichiuchi> “first step: open the case and flip 4 dip switches, upload the firmware, smash your head against the wall”
<kaichiuchi> vs. “connect it and it works”
<kof123> except when it breaks, pay me unlimited $$$$$ as much i say because you aren't allowed to know how it works . again, not a proble, but this is economics, not technological arguments
<epony> you get however zero options to design a language and a complex system on top of a commercial adapted and brain-damaged "interests of the business" released as "end-user-product"
<kof123> *prbolem
<kaichiuchi> kof123: my point is you can satisfy a plethora of different user demographics in OS space, albeit with time
<epony> that's why languages are developed on UNIX
<kof123> eh, agree to disagree. try to please everyone noone is happy
<epony> it's an open and accessible specification oriented simple to extend and work with engineering version of a system
<kaichiuchi> if you like Linux distributions and their various softwares, fine
<heat> macOS pleases nerds and normal people
<kaichiuchi> but you’re in the 2%
<epony> languages developed on WIN/DOS and MAC/DOS are pretty lame
<kof123> im not defending that, but again, appeal to authority fallacy (some magical wisdom of crowds -- witch doctoring)
<kaichiuchi> heat: indeed
<epony> as they address the needs of users of commerce for in application development
<kaichiuchi> that’s not appeal to authority
<kof123> it is
<epony> you're detracting this into sociology, that's nonsensical
<epony> it's about system specifications and engineering and integration
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<kof123> ^^^ anyway got to get some work done
<kaichiuchi> good engineering practices don’t involve anything like this
<gog> i'm gonna go eat sushi
<kof123> its appeal to market perhaps, which again, is not a technological argument, it is politics or economics or sociology etc.
<kaichiuchi> once you have to open a terminal for any reason windows and macos are infinitely superior
<Ermine> Actually if WinXP still was supported I woulnd'nt care about Linux
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<epony> nope
<Ermine> gog: bon appetit
<Ermine> yep
<epony> that's where you land on a set of problems
<kaichiuchi> my mom would not be able to use a terminal
<epony> because it's non-standard and "commericla self-significant convention that is not even carried internally consistently"
<kaichiuchi> how do you propose to handle that?
<epony> given that childern are like their parents..
<epony> just use your applications that make you happy
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: otoh, terminals are not that bad
<epony> for some people, the engineering version is mandatory
<kaichiuchi> then you’re not thinking in the context of people who don’t want to know 400 commands
<kaichiuchi> we do because we are nerds
<kaichiuchi> alternatively we can support both
<epony> for other people, the convenient "some variant of whatever inconsistency internally that looks similar as a themed interface is preferential"
<kaichiuchi> there’s nothing wrong with having both CLI and GUI interfaces
<epony> but you can't
<kaichiuchi> absolutely nothing
<epony> because commercial systems are "owning things and chaning them to not be compatible on purpose"
<epony> changing
<kaichiuchi> what I’m really rallying against is this notion that you can’t have your cake and eat it too
<epony> so think now about GNU for a moment
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I mean, it would be good if user could use GUI without invoking terminal for doing maintenance, but they could use terminal to do their daily tasks if they wanted to.
<epony> GNU is extending the UNIX standardisation with it whimsical extras
<kaichiuchi> Ermine: right, i fully agree
<epony> is that not a "comfy system extension that detracts you from baseline standardisation into a commercial-like dependence"?
<kaichiuchi> i don’t necessarily HAVE to use a terminal on mac
<kaichiuchi> but the option is there
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<kaichiuchi> and that’s nice
<epony> and then there are people who complain UNIX is divergent and incompatible
<epony> it's the commerce land, that does that
<kaichiuchi> but there’s this disarray of extremes
<epony> the engineering parts are "fix this and make it standard cause we have no time to fix it all the time"
<kaichiuchi> either you are 100% DIY, or you’re 100% for the user
<kaichiuchi> the sad thing is you really can integrate both
<Ermine> hot take, any standard is bad because it's called so
<kaichiuchi> I’m very much so a person from an engineering standpoint who tries to integrate as many possible workflows as possible
<kaichiuchi> you want to use CLI? go for it
<kaichiuchi> there’s also a GUI application which may be easier for non-technical users
<kaichiuchi> because CLI is technical to 99% of humanity
<kaichiuchi> i don’t know anything about gardening, doesn’t make me a moron
<Ermine> Btw I forgor what is the subject of this discussion
<heat> unix hard
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<kof123> "epony: it's the commerce land, that does that" djb cr.yp.to has a quote about this lol it turns out they WANT incompatibilities lol
<kaichiuchi> i’m not saying this is what you said, just a general statement, but the moment a developer says “the user is a moron” immediately
<kaichiuchi> there’s a 70% chance you are the problem
<epony> yes commerce invents incompatibilities out of their need to dominate and control a market segment
<epony> it's normal, just believing it's a superior system is foolish
<kaichiuchi> some users ARE, in fact, morons
<kof123> seriously, these are philosophy questions, needs a deeper analysis for me to take seriously. these are the ideas/theories, these are the in practice/known implementations. and then be able to examine whether ideas were actually followed, sidetracked, replaced, etc.
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<kaichiuchi> i was in retail for 10 years i’ve seen a wealth of stupid people
<Ermine> DJB made his own protocol for emailing. So commercial, many money
<kaichiuchi> but all of them can use their android and iphones and apple watches
<epony> retail is a segment of commerce, what do you expect
<kaichiuchi> and that didn’t come from making substandard interfaces
<epony> "that's how the cookie cumbles, that's how the stock market crashes, that's how the potato mashes" --a user of narcotics (some Burrows)
<kaichiuchi> when my dad asks me a question
<kof123> just defining xyz as "in practice" is as meaningless as an idea with no known implementations IMO need to find where it went wrong, or is the idea irredeemable etc. implementations come and go, the idea either survives or not
<kaichiuchi> i know it’s a question he wouldn’t have asked if he were on windows
<kaichiuchi> “hey why do i have to type in my password to print something?”
<kaichiuchi> good question
<kaichiuchi> i think even linus bitched about this once
<epony> on commercial systems, you get "packaging" and "wrapping" or 'theming' and 'tweaks' questions
<epony> which lead you into requirements to adjust the system and you don't get the engineering version, so you're stuck
<epony> that's the base premise for why it's not suitable for engineering work (on the system itself), it's suitable for applications use (not touching the system but files and data)
<epony> an engineering system can do that too
<Ermine> heat: btw why are you doing Unix?
<epony> only it does not make money from incompatibilities and forced upgrades that "uniformly" and "en masse"
<epony> over time you see the commercial systems becoming like the engineering variants from which they draw their re-designs
<epony> if there are 3 conventions to end lines of text in a file / stream, 2 of them are wrong
<epony> so, designing slightly incompatible, slightly sub-par consumer products, you get to shove on top of them the incompatible system, and the incompatible applications and gain billions of dollars for being 'smart' and 'inventive' retard
<epony> that's what is rewarded in a system designed about consumerism
<heat> because I kinda like it
<kof123> i should also point out by the logic previously stated, doctors cannot be trusted, they are only a small % of the population
<epony> welcome to the unix-haters club then, it's kind of disbanded with the demise of the usenet, but it lives in LISP and WIN/MAC communities
<heat> no one said anything about trust
<kaichiuchi> kof123: they’re all you’ve got
<epony> in reality it's the fork (exec) vs span (reserve0
<kaichiuchi> the alternative is to take something random off the shelf and potentially kill yourself by accident
<epony> thus is impossible in LISP
<epony> trust is impossible
<epony> because code is mutated by data, so it's not suitable for trust
<epony> and you see the level of "40 years of viruses" on the commercial systems converting them to national scale cryptolocker comicotragic disasters
<epony> (SCADA is next after that)
<kof123> heat: the point is arguing "better" as % of population is bunk/a smear campaign
<kof123> and completely non-scientific
<epony> it's a sales pitch instrument
<kof123> entirely image/marketing
<kof123> ^^^
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<Ermine> Oh this lisp-written windpows
<heat> kof123, when has user experience ever been scientific?
<heat> it's all opinion based
<kof123> yes, but that excerpt claimed that. anyways...
<epony> that's how commerce work, irrationally, as hearsay, as feature-bundles, as comfy-views, as application-abundance etc..
<kof123> that doesn't deny other arguments, but authors of that book are engaging in smears
<Ermine> Oh those consumerists who like stuff that lets them to get their shit done
<epony> application authors get shafted by Apple and Microsoft (and Google and Amazon.. and Facebook) routinely
DjanSeriy is now known as CosmicBitch
<heat> the vast majority's opinion drives software demand, as it drives medical demand, etc
<epony> it pulls the rug below the feet of programming languages and tools developers too
<kaichiuchi> for me it’s not even opinion
<epony> that's the demise and subsumption of Borland into .Net
<kaichiuchi> it’s “do you want to make your life easier”
<kof123> i should stress im not trying to take a side here. just hold up an ouroborus and call it a day is my position
<epony> if you're trying to be the next Borland, you're doomed in 1991
<heat> your doctor doesn't prescribe you a recipe with a full book about the common flu if you don't get better
<epony> you can keep inventing many variants of getting screwed
<epony> by doctors and other serivces personnel
<kaichiuchi> you would be dead in a week if they did
<heat> because people don't want that. mr doctor give recipe, people use reciple, they get better or come back to mr doctor, who looks at them again
<heat> s/reciple/reciple/g I cannot type today lol
<kaichiuchi> you take the goddamn pill and get better
<heat> holy fucking shit, RECIPE
<epony> you get industrial opiates mixed with medicinal substances and you get to see doctor mister a lot more often
<epony> it's called wrong applications designs with "business interestes for the authoring business" not for its "consumeds"
<kaichiuchi> point being, it’s hardly an opinion to want something to just work
<epony> the engineering version
<kaichiuchi> it’s the nature of human beings unless the point is specifically experimentation
<epony> some integration and assembly required
<epony> you get to that stage on the "consumer" variant too, only you have no recourse there except wait, whine, complain, pay, play, pass time..
<epony> how much you can do with the system and which direction is your work going to be placed is.. entirely your choice
<bslsk05> ​dict.org: dict.org- great
<epony> that's why people spend countless hours tweaking their system and working with file formats they don't own and then seek to support the tool that put them in that dependent position
<epony> it's jus a different way of putting the efforts of great many people where they can be invalidated and reused as an instrument of hostage-extortion
<epony> by that regard, Google is not much different, it's again about file formats and "locked" system of "services"
<epony> so between Microsoft on premises and Google in the services, not anything different, commerce as usual
<kof123> eh, i would draw a vague line between personal computer and networked here
<kof123> labels dont matter, and perhaps are obsolete, but gets the point across
<epony> and Apple as a 7.5% market position is.. just not really revelant
<epony> that's an important factor, consumer computers get consumer features and usage
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<epony> with the development version of a system, these can be repurposed and used as development and business / networked computer systems
<epony> for work
<epony> instead of for "more consumption"
<epony> how efficient and easy that part is, depends on the "you need to buy a new license and a new version and a new computer" from the consumer vendors, or just use the already available capabilities in the same computer that can run any system
<epony> that's why commercial consumer "solutions" are not
<epony> they are problems, perceived as "themed applications"
<epony> in the same way that "thematic (alternative) tv channels" are not "university education"
<epony> so take the Borland lesson and evaluate "can you compete with the system controlling corporation if they decide to eliminate you or not"
<epony> and the answers are typically "I want my business to be bought by them" which happens if your business is of any value and interest to them, for a small set of you, but for the majority of use cases, that's a rejection and termination / restructuring
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<epony> so the high integration comes at a cost of changes and obsoletions and displacements (There can be only one)
<epony> unless you're on the engineering system version where you get to do a bit more work on the system management but you have everything
<epony> that's why compilers were so expensive in the 80ies.. and developer tools later (which are limiting if you can't get to the system, just to the application surface above that)
<epony> the big secret is, you get the consumer version from consumables companies, and the engineering and developer systems are hunted bought and cancelled or abused in any possible way by large businesses who do not want competition from that side
<epony> when you self-rationalised the "consumption" version, you're self-eliminating access from you for similar capability and capacity
<epony> between fashion, religion and philosophy, there is many and none of them get it right, but believers are stongly rationalising theyr behaviour not their capabiltiy and capacity
<epony> and that's markets and politics for non technical reasons too
<epony> the integration can happen without being forced into consumption, in clean and reliable standards and performance and specification methods
<epony> convenience is not a contradition with well designed system, it's a result of it, but can be immitated without the elaborate designs and their reliable operation
<epony> UNIX was hated because it was expensive and incomplete from the 'convenience' and "standardisation" points
<epony> you all know how history rolled, so no need to repeat that, the real question is, why are FDO and desktop environment projects doing the WIN/DOS and MAC/DOS stupidity again?
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: freedesktop.org - Wikipedia
<epony> that's the consumer side of things, that turns the UNIX philosophy book upside down and reads it in reverse from the last pages and in RTL or down-up or diagonal direction
<epony> the anti-thesis of an principally well designed system is that "windowisation" or "appleisation", which you're going to get anyway on the respective commercial system, and as convenience, but why skip the standards compliant and the engineering parts on a reliable and standards compliant (UNIX descendant, which Linux is somewhat like, but much more exprimental) system
<Ermine> Where is the Unix-way library/program/etc to draw fonts? Or is it the Unix way to have your eyes bleed from X core fonts?
<epony> on a UNIX-like system, getting just the superfluous problems is convenience, without the other parts that the system already has, so discards good achievement
<heat> freetype
<zid> freetype
<epony> see, that's the pango/cairo nicety from Gnome or others Xft / Xcb
<heat> zid, omg twiiiiiiiinssssssss
<zid> I fucking love AA'd fonts, I hate clearype
<zid> windows burns my eyes
<zid> that's why I mainly use fixedsys on it
<zid> firefox uses its own font renderer instead of windows' too, so I get nice AA'd fonts there also
<epony> yep, single pixel or well contoured fonts is eyesight retainer
<zid> and irc and web browser and pdf are where I spend 99% of my time, so I don't have to look at oogly fonts too much
<Ermine> heat: freetype is listed on the page epony provided, thus considered stupid
<epony> the stupid part is.. the lack of standards or breakage by discarding previous designs
<epony> or by bundling things in an 'quick and dirty' way without elaborate and reliable implementation
<epony> some parts of these are not completely disastrous and with a bit of fixes to retain the engineering qualities can get back in "shape"
<epony> but it passes several iterations
<epony> which is the "experimental way" you know from Linux and it's components too
<heat> why is it stupid?
<epony> that was inevitably part of UNIX too, with various commercial implementers and their special sauces on the graphics and application fronts
<Ermine> aand how much time it would take to make non-stupid Unix-way non-'quick and dirty' and whatnot font rendering lib?
<epony> well, the stupid is.. how many audio-subsystems are in Linux ;-)
<heat> man, this is the Unix-way
<epony> or how many problems does pango give you with your applications
<heat> freedesktop.org supplies desktop shit for many unices
<epony> with a slant of Linux mainly
<epony> because they target Linux, let's not fool ourselves they are doing the portaiblity, they are losing it
<Ermine> And taking into account everything else, will usable Unix-way desktop happen before the heat depth of the universe?
<epony> for example wtf is systemd
<epony> or hal/udev
<heat> usable? sure, you have it right now
<heat> good? who knows
<epony> or the kms/dri
<Ermine> heat: well, s/usable/good/
<epony> they are non-standards compliant linux-centric changes
<heat> the main issue with desktop linux is fragmentation and lack of investment
<epony> which discard previous designs instead of extending them and retaining the good parts
<heat> many alternative projects exist, very few companies want desktop linux, so you're stuck with thankless volunteers doing the work
<epony> so it's a version of 'ownage' and 'displacement' which is a Linux-ification in the way that Microsoft and GNU do it
<epony> extend embrace ext..4
<heat> combine that with a bunch of programmers doing UX and you have a great recipe for a crappy product IMO
<heat> (also, people who insist on using Xorg. it's not even maintained anymore outside of the odd bugfix)
<epony> we're going to have a nice Wayway land too
<Ermine> oh those linux people who DARED to make stuff and not waiting xBSD people to come up@
<epony> because who needs an engineering version ;-)
<epony> yep, that's the big money corporations are putting into dirty displacement of free systems
<epony> through incompatible interfaces, they own it
<epony> (Linux is a commercial product, if you did not know, there it is)
<epony> not a completely problematic one, just shared between many big businesses
<Ermine> remember, if you do your own stuff instead of consulting with each of 8 billion people on this planet, you are a fucking dirty commercial corporative capitalist
<heat> what
* heat is confused
<epony> but they make changes to it and the changes come from foundations getting money from them and commercial distributors which are interested in their business needs more than in standardisation, compatibility and reliability of the interfaces and programming internals and operator needs
<epony> so, in fact Redhat is doing most of that FDO projects internally and pushes them out so they are supported and propagated by the FDO
<epony> how's that different than what MSFT or GOOG or AAPL are doing ;-)
<epony> you get "to view the source code"
<Ermine> heat: I did some reductio ad absurdum
<epony> and whine about inability to make changes to the system 'overlay' called the graphics sub-system
<epony> so now the unix-haters club have a fdo-redhat haters club too ;-)
<epony> that's probably the most secret sauce of corporate businesses, creating self-healing user-groups
<epony> it's a form of post market services from the community of "screwed" useds
<heat> oh I'm missing 80% of the context because wikipedia man is talking
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<epony> ^ you bet
<Ermine> heat: I just think if Linux and BSD people started discussing every change to their systems, the work would actually stop
<epony> it's the Unix philosophy books of Mike Gancarz you could read
<kaichiuchi> heat: sadly for assholes like me X is still the only good thing
<kaichiuchi> “good” loosely
<epony> and also BSD is an integrated and engineering system too, GNU is not that integrated and more into features extensions
<Ermine> > BSD
<heat> Ermine, discussing with whom?
<Ermine> > kqueue
<kaichiuchi> wayland isn’t incredible on NVIDIA, SDL tried to use wayland by default but then realized it’s not great
<Ermine> LOL
<Ermine> LMAO
<Ermine> ROFL
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: libevent - Wikipedia
<kaichiuchi> i have someone ignores
<heat> kaichiuchi, does it still work poorly? :/
<kaichiuchi> ignored
<heat> yeah
<kaichiuchi> heat: wayland was a terrific disaster for me
<kaichiuchi> X worked instantly
<epony> see that libevent comes from a BSD developer and is used in you browser too and in your terminal multiplexer too
<kaichiuchi> the KDE showstoppers are interesting
<Ermine> heat: discussing with whom? <--- with each other
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<epony> in short, desktoy environments are not really the "super-achievement" of operating systems, they are where problems appear because of lack of standardisation and portability
<heat> Ermine, probably
<kaichiuchi> applications not prompting to save work, QDockWidget’s aren’t visible when moving
<heat> linux people would look at their man pages and get mislead :)))))
<kaichiuchi> no color management
<epony> for example nothing would have stopped MSFT and AAPL and GOOG (and AMZN and FB) from creating "portable applications" but they are vertical market control corporations
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<kaichiuchi> wayland has been the Thing but has been complete dogshit for 10 years
<Ermine> heat: re wayland vs xorg: I think both have their own deficiencies
<epony> so they are using the engineering and standardised system, and get you a consumer "release" of take-it-or-leave-it
<kaichiuchi> heat was a fetus when I saw wayland coming out
<Ermine> heat: awilfox believes that it is possible to get Xorg into shape
<heat> kaichiuchi, I was 6
<heat> Ermine, nonsense
<kof123> i will say the problem with "I want it to work" masks code rot, or duplicated effort, or any number of things which might work temporarily, and get de-prioritized in a mad rush to market ...works until it is one giant jenga tower. "works or not" cannot be the only priority, whether we are talking lone guy in bedroom or giant enterprise
<epony> of course it is possible to get the X server in shape
<Ermine> epony: do it then/
<epony> it's a protocol system that can have protocol adjustments
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<heat> Xorg is deeply flawed and extended beyond reasonable doubt
<kaichiuchi> no please please don’t suggest that Xorg is fixable
<kof123> ^^^ +heat not arguing either way, but an example
<kaichiuchi> the whole point of it is *long gone*
<kaichiuchi> the very architecture doesn’t translate at all to the modern world
<epony> well, this kind of "design" decisions get you into the N-number of audio sub-systems for Linux
<epony> and the M-number of file systems Linux has
<kaichiuchi> this goes back to people wanting to make piles of shit into polished turds
<epony> standards ;-)
<heat> kof123, sure, you can clean things up while making the product Just Work. It doesn't need to be an unreasonable search for perfection while things just don't work. I'm not at all saying that technical debt is something you should ignore
<kof123> i think we violently agree here, and kaichuiuchi too
<kof123> maybe qs of what causes this, etc.
<kof123> but that the phenomenon is real
<epony> extensible standards compliant modular-composable system, that's what UNIX is about
<Ermine> Standards are bad actually
<epony> at least in the principles of improving its designs
<heat> kaichiuchi, totes, that's the UNIX way
<heat> fork() away!
<kaichiuchi> i can say this, as someone who was a test engineer and had no control at all
<kaichiuchi> we were under extremely tight deadlines
<Ermine> heat: on Wayland, I think that 'frame-perfect' vision of Wayland didn't work well, since they added the possibility of screen tearing
<kaichiuchi> people would just say “it works” and ship
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Unix philosophy - Wikipedia
<kaichiuchi> consider this abalogy
<epony> the first book was about "crappy UNIX-es" from commerce and Linux being one of them
<kaichiuchi> analogy
<heat> Ermine, screen tearing is wanted sometimes (mainly competitive video games lol)
<Ermine> heat: exactly
<epony> the second book was about UNIX and LINUX as a converging evolution
<heat> but ok, you couldn't disable it, now you can
<gog> hi
<heat> yay!
<kaichiuchi> you hire an electrician, and you trust that electrician will solve your problem but in fact they did a lousy job
<kaichiuchi> but you don’t know it
<Ermine> gog: were sushis good?
<gog> very
<kaichiuchi> maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year
<Ermine> nice
<gog> we have so much leftover fishy
<kaichiuchi> but at some point your house will burn down
<gog> i can't chomp it all
<epony> those books contain basic "recipes" how to design reliable interfaces and applciations
<heat> Ermine, compare with Xorg which had little to no vsync support
<kaichiuchi> but it just worked, right?
<epony> that's what the FDO needs to read to get some progress
<kaichiuchi> that’s not the type of “just works” i’m talking about.
<kof123> ok, fair
<heat> or Xorg which still supports X over TCP to a remote client
<epony> so the main argument is: people who are unlearned are doing system engineering hobby work that corporations bestow upon them with their specifications and interests as primary directive
<heat> it's nuts
<kaichiuchi> heat: the problem is no one in that world ultimately cares
<kaichiuchi> they want to live in shit and love to live in shit
<heat> just like pigs eh?
<kaichiuchi> that’s the only conclusion i can reach
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<kof123> i think heat suggested other way around, no funds
<kaichiuchi> it’s unacceptable that Wayland has been a thing for 10+ years and it’s still garbage
<heat> UNIX itself is a piece of turd that is still going 40 years after it should've died
<Ermine> heat: maybe, but didn't this happen to be a compositor's job? I saw tearing in my pc only in fvwm2
<gog> we should make our own operating system since everything else is bad
<kof123> ^^^
<heat> github.com/heatd/Onyx subscribe
<bslsk05> ​heatd/Onyx - UNIX-like operating system written in C and C++ (4 forks/54 stargazers/MIT)
<Ermine> heat: so you are kinda like this overdue stuff?
<heat> we support x86_64 and riscv64 with an in-progress arm64 port give me money give me money sub to my patreon and onlyfans
<kof123> ultimately it comes down to "why aren't you fixing these things?
<kaichiuchi> because i have a job and not enough time to do it
<Ermine> heat onlyfans good content
<epony> it's not bad, UNIX is created by engineering PhD people
<epony> it's much better than Linux
<heat> Ermine, I kinda like this overdue stuff? yes
<Ermine> heat: hmm...
<kaichiuchi> and frankly i don’t have the technical skills to shit out what I think is a good operating system
<epony> at least the first version (1-to-5 variants) that Linux gets to do are kid-toy-story grade plastic utensils
<heat> I have weird stockholm syndrome
<kaichiuchi> but if heat who is 20 can do it
<kaichiuchi> i think i’m selling myself short
<heat> what does that mean, oldie
<epony> each element of UNIX is a programming language and a compiler toolkit in itself
<kaichiuchi> it means you’re at a level that I was not at when i was 20
<epony> think which part of consumer systems get you that, only the very complex and very expensive big applications
<kaichiuchi> still not, either
<heat> yes, i've been doing this since I was 12
<kaichiuchi> if I had applied myself when I was a fetus
<epony> being 20 means you need to learn a lot more
<kaichiuchi> i’d be different
<kaichiuchi> not that it’s too late now
<Ermine> I wish I've could pay for heat's onlyfans subscription rn
<epony> at least skipping reading books that are important leads to "opinions invented or overheard but not validated or experienced historically"
<epony> supporting commercian consumer systems is a special "dependency saught" variant of "I want to be a preacher"
<heat> Ermine down tremendous
<gog> too late is a fake idea
<gog> at least when it comes to self improvement goals
<Ermine> heat: ?
<kaichiuchi> yeah i just beat myself up too much
* gog offers sushi to kaichiuchi
<sham1> There are certainly things that can have a "too late" attached to them
<gog> yes
* kaichiuchi eat
<gog> that is inarguable
<sham1> But yeah, self-improvement is timeless
<gog> i can think of a few things that are immediate dangers to humans and other animal species
<gog> and too late is either rapidly approaching or already behind us :|
<gog> it's impossible to know!
<gog> :D
<heat> Ermine, = down bad
<epony> you can get a bunch of "get me back in the comfy matrix" belief-themes and be "a normie" too, but you're not a target used of the fool-proof systems
<epony> you however have residual "regrets" for not being one
<kaichiuchi> also
<epony> so Neo, pick the other choice ;-) again
<kaichiuchi> writing ANSI C is somehow really freeing
<gog> red pill red pill
<kaichiuchi> i have no idea what it is
<kaichiuchi> but it’s just a nice feeling
<sham1> Clearly it must be the trill of not having fixed-width integers
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<epony> the same feeling you can get in Turbo Pascal
<kaichiuchi> there’s a free stdint.h i could pull
<sham1> Because I can't think of other reasons one would use C89 over C99
<epony> that's being "sure you're doing things alright / as they are done by others"
<kaichiuchi> maximum portability
<kaichiuchi> some compilers of note STILL
<kaichiuchi> STILL don’t support C99
<sham1> C99 is maximally portable. Although I'd personally do C11 or C17 for that, because VLAs are terrible
<kaichiuchi> particularly in the embedded world
<gog> the problem i'm having in C and C++ is that they have different kinds of pattern boilerplate you end up writing
<kaichiuchi> sham1: at my old job there was a TI compiler in use that didn’t support C99
<gog> and i hate both
<Ermine> epony: the actual matrix scenario implied that Neo never escaped matrix.
<epony> so between the "as the goup of similarity does it" or "as the engineering groupd does it" (the ones with the PhD or mastery / skill / deep thought collective)
<sham1> I'm actually writing some Erlang currently. It's surprisingly fun
<epony> yep, just place yourself in the group of engineering and you're back into your comforts if that is your intent
<sham1> The only annoying thing is that I essentially have to do SSA by hand by having to come up with new binding names
<epony> there is no real contradiction, you can have pills anywhere but that's just a symbol, of choices, so picking choices that are correct for your (engineering) set of goals and objectives gets you into "converging" but also different than "consumer" systems designs
<epony> you can't have that many standards, but you can have multiple contrasting conventions in user preferences and convenience / control points
<Ermine> gog: what lang do you use then?
<kaichiuchi> sham1: plus
<kaichiuchi> I want my code to natively compile on windows 98
<kaichiuchi> or DOS
<puck> kaichiuchi: i was surprised that a TI compiler i had to deal with (16-bit DSP, a few years ago) was C11-compatible
<kaichiuchi> for fun
<epony> so that's why emacs and vi are not just editors, they are text editing conventions, which are "user options" of confort / convenience / use case specifics
<kaichiuchi> puck: yeah we weren’t that fortunate
<kaichiuchi> it was ancient
<epony> but they start from same premises
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: even vim abandoned this goal
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: and there are no c99 compilers on DOS
<epony> and in their system-embedded minimal implementations even use same screen addressing libraries and end up with similar aplication sizes
<kaichiuchi> precisely
<gog> Ermine: i've been playing with c++ lately
<kaichiuchi> that’s why you need to use ANSI C
<kaichiuchi> and for my use case it’s purely a toy
<gog> experimenting
<epony> so it's not that much different in the essential parts, much difference in the "prefered" control of editing user/operator interface
<Ermine> gog: ah
<gog> maybe i need a new pair of socks
<kaichiuchi> no stop
<Ermine> gog: take a pair with buns on them
<epony> and the internals are, as usual, the data structure used for the representation of the editing, and the programmability / language tooling builting into it / or used to contruct it extensible / reprogrammable
<epony> for example each of the tools you know from UNIX are a language and uses compiler tools (parsers) to do that
<epony> so are language designs
<epony> the system is "intended" to be extensible with language tooling (programmable) internally
<kaichiuchi> i had a version of what i’m doing compiling with VC++6.0
<kaichiuchi> that was awesome to watch
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<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I used it in WinNT4 VM to build Vim 7.4 for Win9x
<kaichiuchi> well
<Ermine> Then I've spent a lot of time to build vim 8.1 for those windowses, without success
<kaichiuchi> I don’t know if we can use clang or gcc
<kaichiuchi> maybe if we install the windows SDK on 98 and point clang/gcc to the appropriate files
<Ermine> I doubt whether clang ever supported win9x
<epony> that's a bit naive, don't you think?
<epony> the WIN/DOS interfaces are different
<kaichiuchi> nono
<epony> remember GDI
<epony> and the kernel system calls
<epony> and the terminal libraries
<epony> a totally different "userland interfaces"
<kaichiuchi> i mean if we compile for windows 98 on linux using libs/headers from the vc installation
<Ermine> kaichiuchi: I'd give up if I were you.
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<epony> which requires a tooling like Cygnus CYG/WIN
<kaichiuchi> no it worked and i’m having fun
<epony> which is the poor-man's approach to achieve portable "interface" where they are missing
<Ermine> The goal is laudable, but it doesn't worth it. Better target XP
<kaichiuchi> DOOM was ported to a pregnancy test
<kaichiuchi> i think i can manage
<epony> diabetes and pregnancy are different conditions
<zid> it wasn't
<zid> it was put inside the shell of one
<zid> using an oled
<zid> The oled lego brick is cool also
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<Ermine> zid: it used the processor of that test
<kaichiuchi> even if I would be wrong, DOOM has been ported everywhere
<kaichiuchi> that’s a fact
<epony> the ID proggers did not use Borland C
<epony> which could have been a lie of course
<epony> said they used some 'free' Watcom C compiler
<epony> or shareware or whatever "use"
<epony> it used the specifics of the graphics hardware and the DOS specifics of memory management too
<epony> the networking of course was non-TCP from Novell's IPX experiments
<Ermine> Such standard compliance, many engineering wow
<epony> I've used that application with a serial cable too and with a modem dial-up in point-to-point network with its original versions back in those years
<epony> and in the networked variant too, of course
<epony> it's nothing like "networking as it should be done"
<epony> same for graphics and programming, but you get a "mashup this way we did it for taking as much advantage of the system as we knew / could"
<epony> that's what games give you, a non-elaboate application-design premises taking advantage of the hardware and its operating system of "dominant choice"
<epony> and when the system is designed to "give all resoureces" to the "application that claims them" that's DOS/WIN
<epony> when the computers get more capabilit to be able to use a realistic OS that does proper resource allocation and scheduling and networking, why not use it ;-) unless your applications are making the choices instead of you
<epony> and that's the problem with unportable and incompatible systems, they have different designs goals / objectives and do "relatively stupid" but advantageous to resource delegation with "hogging"
<kaichiuchi> uwu?
<epony> the other interesting part is the graphics sub-system is in the kernel
<epony> so it gets a faster path and deeper integration
<epony> that's similar in DOS/WIN and DOS/MAC
<epony> so games need that, and screw with DirectX and OpenGL to the degree they can running on Windows95+ too (GDI)
<epony> that's unportable designs
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<epony> it's acceptable to have applications (ab)use the system features, but when the system changes, that breaks
<epony> WIN/DOS carries a lot of backwards compat in it
<epony> a lot, even in the UI interface libraries, and even in the system components
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<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Graphics Device Interface - Wikipedia
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<gog> kaichiuchi: owo??
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<kaichiuchi> where’s my chili
<gog> we finished it
<gog> there's more sushi
<zid> gog: netflix and chili?
<gog> yes
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<Ermine> netflix, chili and some petting
<zid> eww lewd
<gog> :3
<Ermine> didn't mean anything beyond usual petting. No harassment
<zid> Hand holding should be made R18
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<gog> h*lding h*nds
<gog> o///o
<Ermine> Lol
<gog> makefiles
<gog> can't live with em
<gog> too lazy to use another build system
<zid> plus they're universal and modifiable
<gog> is meson worth it
<gog> or does it just tie me to something that might change in a way that breaks my project
<Ermine> Idk if I like it
<Ermine> I don't like the fact that it's written in python, but thankfully there's muon
<zid> if you bundle meson with your project I will allow it
<zid> and python
<Ermine> Also I don't think it is a good idea to include a test framework. I think it should be separate from the build system
<gog> hm
<Ermine> But I like that they export some info that can be useful for text editors. It allows making the whole IDE from various components
<zid> I think it's time for chili
<zid> brb gotta do some rice
<Ermine> Also I think meson will never kill make. Make is universal and supports every language out there, meson needs specific support for each language
<gog> that's a dealbreaker really
<gog> i'll stick with make unless it ever becomes too unwieldly
<zid> tbh if make is unwieldy, your project is unwieldly
<zid> and you should probably write some support software, or fix your issues
<zid> (see: Kconfig)
<gog> it's really not rn
<Ermine> Hand-written configure may be useful in alleviating Makefile complexity
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<zid> I has chili, what do I netflix
<gog> glass onion
<zid> isn't that the obnoxiously silly thing
<zid> fuck it this'll do, "How Different Spillway Gates Work"
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<kaichiuchi> so
<kaichiuchi> i think i want a NAS
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<heat> .so.0
<heat> kaichiuchi, something new for your project: https://github.com/bkryza/clang-uml
<bslsk05> ​bkryza/clang-uml - Customizable automatic UML diagram generator for C++ based on Clang. (10 forks/100 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<kaichiuchi> are you just making fun of my overengineering now
<heat> yes
<heat> that is exactly what I'm doing
<kaichiuchi> very well
<kaichiuchi> i will continue to eat my cranberries
<heat> at least you don't use OOP design patterns
<kaichiuchi> i’ve never thought of or used a design pattern in my life
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Design Patterns - Wikipedia
<kaichiuchi> no i know what they are
<heat> this is the overengineering way
<kaichiuchi> i’m just saying i find them to be mostly useless
<heat> whaaaaaaaaaaaaat
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<kaichiuchi> what do you mean "what"
<kaichiuchi> there's nothing that says "god, i can't wait to find a pattern and pick one out and give it a buzzword name and then implement it"
<heat> i can't believe you've never used a StrategySingletonFacadeFactoryObserver
<kaichiuchi> than design patterns
<kaichiuchi> never
<kaichiuchi> i've used singletons and observers
<kaichiuchi> but I've never in my life considered them "patterns"
<kaichiuchi> my boss at my old job said that the project we were working on made use of the visitor behavioral pattern with the biggest smile on his face
<kaichiuchi> i had to quit. i couldn't stay.
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<heat> fuck
<heat> that's a toughie
<heat> actual smile?
<kaichiuchi> an actual smile
<kaichiuchi> a big one
<heat> or just ironic grin?
<kaichiuchi> this is someone who graduated with a masters from CMU
<heat> aw no
<heat> not those people
<kaichiuchi> i couldn't stand him
<kaichiuchi> he was one of those people who would say "i don't want you to just do your tasks"
<kaichiuchi> well, what else do you want me to do? "more"
<gog> oh god
<kaichiuchi> and then it became clear what was really going on
<zid> I've had multiple people explain visitor pattern to me, the most I could figured out was "This is C++ nonsense"
<kaichiuchi> the insane tight deadlines and the fact QA people are notoriously crunched the hardest
<kaichiuchi> and of course for every release the same bugs would show up every single release
<kaichiuchi> so much so that I had templates ready just for the occasion
<zid> after the layer 1 explanation they have to do the layer 2 explanation of why you can't just do something sane, then the layer 3 explanation, etc
<kaichiuchi> here's the thing, I don't have a degree, right?
<kaichiuchi> this only further increased my prejudice of "higher learning"
<kaichiuchi> yes, the sample size is 1
<kaichiuchi> actually, 2
<kaichiuchi> maybe about 1,000.
<kaichiuchi> it was an entire mountain of bullshit from start to finish full of silicon valley wannabees saying shit that could have only originated in california
<kaichiuchi> and then when you get to 'x', you quickly realize it's not at all what you prepared for
<kaichiuchi> 9 times out of 10 someone graduates college, your boss/teammates will say "yeah forget everything you learned in college."
<kaichiuchi> so why the *FUCK* would I even go?!?!??!?!?1??1?
<kaichiuchi> this is the same guy who gave me the trapping rainwater leetcode problem
<kaichiuchi> yet, the project he was in charge of was one of the worst examples of python I have *ever* seen
<kaichiuchi> it would make zid, an already picky person, probably go postal in the office
<mats2> its to weed out some people with impulse control problems and type walls of text unprompted
<kaichiuchi> i think we were in the middle of a conversation and I was explaining stuff
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<kaichiuchi> heat: i'm trying not to overengineer, but it's hard
<heat> kaichiuchi, i believe you
<heat> in any case, here's some reading material for everyone: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pig_and_the_Box
<bslsk05> ​en.wikisource.org: The Pig and the Box - Wikisource, the free online library
<heat> sorry, your children*
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<kaichiuchi> is any ssh client any good at all on ios
<kaichiuchi> termius seems like the Thing
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<epony> college and university are not the same education level, and the other people who are not educated tell you that to indicate you should get a better paid job where the others are required to be educated to your level and above as well
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<sham1> This depends on what one means by college and university
<epony> they are different and not subjective interpretation categories of high education, college is typically half the length and no post-graduate studies etc
* kof123 reads the heat story, adds note that 27 is still cursed