klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<epony> "rate my comment with 5 pi.14" --...
<mjg> zid: so i'm curious, if not yaml, then what?
<mjg> don't leave me hanging baby
<gog> json
<FireFly> that's just sensible yaml without comments
* FireFly ducks
<moon-child> at one point, I had to write yaml, and I couldn't figure out the syntax, so I just wrote it in json
<moon-child> since it's a subset (or near-subset? Iirc there were some edge-cases)
<mjg> i'm asking zid
<mjg> he ranted about it more than i did on rust
* mjg stirring some shit
<epony> hehehe
<epony> it's still liquid
<zid> mjg: ini
<zid> if you need something more complicated than ini, sqlite
<mjg> your weener is tini
<epony> that's why you bring your buns
<epony> to hide it
<epony> mustard / gas?
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<mjg> zid: some people have uarchs, some people have udicks
* mjg <-- uarch person
<epony> and some have µBIOS
<moon-child> what if I have both
<gog> you win
<mjg> moon-child: your parents love you anyway
<mjg> moon-child: all that matters
<epony> speaking of winning, did you know that Windows is made by Windians? ;-)
<mjg> moon-child: not the bio ones though
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<FireFly> moon-child: yaml is explicitly a json superset since some version of yaml, idk exactly
<FireFly> ...the nix toYAML serializer just calls toJSON, it's just there for convenience/documentation reasons heh
<bslsk05> ​github.com: nixpkgs/generators.nix at master · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub
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<zid> Just a reminder, so nice that my keyboard is working again, jesus christ my spare is bad
<zid> and I genuinely like this keyboard and it cost plenty
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<epony> you can have 9 more spares for the cost of 1 of these fancy priced same thing
<epony> most of the time "it's idling"
<klys> ipmi support at the power supply level may mean replacing something like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/144541532547 with something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304120762970 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/325237119028
<bslsk05> ​www.ebay.com: 1800W Fully-Modular Power Supply 80 Plus Gold Certified PSU with Silent 14cm Fan | eBay
<bslsk05> ​www.ebay.com: Supermicro PDB-PT216-2824 23-Pairs Power Distributor Assembly for SC216 Chassis | eBay
<bslsk05> ​www.ebay.com: Supermicro PWS-1K81P-1R 1800W 80 Plus Platinum Server Redundant Power Supply PSU | eBay
<epony> at a slight overage for the supermicro branding
<epony> spermicro are kind of overpriced on everything other than mainboards
<klys> yeah tho what does that have to do with ipmi?
<epony> ipmi is a protocl for power management and control
<epony> so it is present on server rated hardware as bmc and have integration with the machine i/o superchip and power management
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<zid> surprisingly quiet without heat
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<gog> hi
<dinkelhacker> hi^^
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<kaichiuchi> hi
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<sham1> hi
<kaichiuchi> hi
<Ermine> hi
<sham1> Uug, two more hours at work with having done all the work. Boredom
<gog> i have a lot to do and 5 hours left
<gog> but it's lunch and then i have a short appointment
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<zid> I have choice cuts of free range chicken in a luxurious breading, atop finest aromatic rice, with a medley of mediterranean vegetable pureé
<gog> tasty
<zid> chicken nuggies and ketchup <3
<moon-child> chicken nuggets on rice?
<zid> yea is good
<zid> make sure you salt the nuggets, and use good rice
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<zid> sorry I mean, the breaded choice chicken cuts
<gog> i'm gonna go get burger and fries and a beer
<zid> I could beer..
<zid> I have a box from christmas I've been taking the odd one out of when I feel like an beer
<moon-child> beer meh
<zid> don't really drink much
* moon-child prefers wine
<zid> and whine
<zid> I don't mind wine but I can't say I actually enjoy it
<Ermine> Moonshine
<zid> I genuinely like a nice pint of bitter every few weeks
<Ermine> Can you say for metric system people how much is it?
<zid> That is metric.
<zid> It's one hundredth of 100 pints
<zid> and 1000x as much as a millipint
<moon-child> Ermine, zid is an imperialist
<zid> (It just isn't SI)
<zid> The four standard units of length, mass, time and beer.
<zid> meters, newtons, seconds, pints
<Ermine> moon-child: yeah
<moon-child> newtons are mass?
<Ermine> and pascals are the force
<zid> kilos are weight, or something? science is hard.
<moon-child> no, kilos are mass
<moon-child> newtons are force
<moon-child> iirc, N = kg*m/s^2?
<Ermine> And gogs per bazingas is velocity
<moon-child> indeed
<zid> a moon-child is 1/1000th of a heat
<zid> which I suppose makes him equivalent to a millikelvin?
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<dminuoso> moon-child: confusing weight with mass is so common, but understandable given that most humans havent left the mostly uniformly constant gravity at the earth surface.
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<kaichiuchi> heat: let us count together
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<Ermine> heat: am I supposed to use onyx master?
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<kaichiuchi> Ermine: you’re now known as Ermac to me
<kaichiuchi> because i cannot stop initially reading your nick properly
<kaichiuchi> improperly*
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<sham1> Ermacs
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<Ermine> heat: minimal sysroot link not working :\
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<heat> Ermine, hi, yes master
<heat> would it work for you if you used one of the prebuilts?
<heat> they're all built in CI so you can trust em
<heat> (or ... just follow CI)
<Ermine> Yes I guess
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<Ermine> You mean using Onyx ISO from CI artifacts?
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<heat> no, I mean one of the toolchains
<heat> if you're set on building that is
<Ermine> Ah
<heat> Ermine, fwiw, the minimal sysroots are right beside the toolchains in the CI output :))
<Ermine> Yeah, found it
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<kaichiuchi> hi
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<heat> Ermine, dont know what you're looking at but I have a nice wrapper script that does things
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<heat> Ermine, if you go through https://github.com/heatd/Onyx/blob/master/.github/workflows/main.yml#L300 it should be ennuff
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Onyx/main.yml at master · heatd/Onyx · GitHub
<mjg> where is onyx yaml parser
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<kaichiuchi> i need a 2nd pair of eyes
<kaichiuchi> the results should be the same between both functions
<kaichiuchi> not really sure why they are not
<heat> mjg, its not
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<heat> i did import a horrible header-only json parser though
<heat> increases my C++'s build time to almost a second and a bit
<heat> (on each file it's included)
<heat> kaichiuchi, aw seriously, const on fucking parameters?
<mjg> so when you gonna get back to some benching mofo
<kaichiuchi> heat: why the fuck not
<mjg> can we try to drop the f-word/
<heat> it's unreadable
<mjg> or reduce its usage
<heat> mjg, sorry ma
<kaichiuchi> why the FUDGE is it unreadable
<kaichiuchi> :(
<mjg> that tone as well
<kaichiuchi> what i’m just kidding :(
<kaichiuchi> heat knows he is loved
<kaichiuchi> i hope
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<heat> all i know is that I love you
<kaichiuchi> <3
<heat> mjg, btw i'll be back to optimizing idk, when i stop being busy
<heat> same for the great sysctl patch
<gog> hi
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<Ermine> heat: thank you
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<mats2> love u 2
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<geist> oh yay, relaxing: https://defrag.shiplift.dev/
<bslsk05> ​defrag.shiplift.dev: Defrag - By ShipLift LLC
<Ermine> It refreshed the page before finishing :(
<geist> you must start anew
<mjg> oh hehe
<mjg> you know, on my first PC there was scandisk from microsoft and a variant from symantec
<geist> the 'files' are laid out a little too randomly for me, if there was a bit of clustering it'd look much more realistic
<mjg> the disk was clean, except for one block where they "argued"
<geist> if it weren't written in js i'd consider fixing it up
<mjg> as in you run scandisk, it claims the block is crap and it can fix it
<mjg> then it is clean
<mjg> you run the symantec variant, same story
<geist> ah, it should have just marked it bad block and move on
<mjg> i don't know if it was a bad block
<mjg> i do know it did not like *something* about it
<geist> in FAT that's basically a particular sentinel token in the FAT that caused it to be avoided forever
<geist> ah
<mjg> this reminds of a funzy
<mjg> i swear i have a memory of creating *two* files with the same name ona floppy drive from norton commander
<heat> you know, i liked defragging
<heat> it feels very satisfying
<mjg> and then it failing to read the disk
<geist> 100%. to this day i love defragging, except you dont really want to do it on SSDs
<geist> which is a sads
<mjg> i was never able to replicate tho
<mjg> geist: is this why you keep the old shit around?
<heat> geist, which i still don't understand. how is random access as good as sequential?
<heat> it's just not. it's impossible
<mjg> no seek time?
<heat> doesn't matter
<mjg> how so
<geist> heat: i think with modern nvme and ssd it's basically the same
<heat> ssds cache heavily
<heat> they have what, 4-8GB of DRAM? how do you cache when doing random access
<mjg> i'm sayin seek time may be small enough that you remain limited by other factors
<geist> specifically even if you have to issue 10 transactions to do the same thing, with NCQ and or nvme you can just issue it all at once
<heat> even then, there's almost an understanding in linux that when doing ext4 you don't need to defrag because "the operating system deals with it"
<heat> which is authentically BS
<geist> but yeah i think there's a teensy bit of an advantage to defragging highly fragmented individual files
<geist> but only then it's a tradeoff of lifetime of SSD
<geist> i have a defrag app on windows that can scan everything and then give you a list of the worst files and you can selectively defrag those, so sometimes i do, like a VM file that has 200k frags, etc
<geist> but i figure mostly you're also reducing the list of fragments in the FILE record
<geist> does it matter? probably not
<mjg> ext4?
<geist> heat: re: caching most of the reason the SSDs have a lot of dram (and some dont actually) is to hold the translation table in memory
<heat> my pacman.log (package manager log) has 143 extents for just 2.2MB
<mjg> i'm confident you need to defrag the shit ouf that one
<mjg> that's the point
<mjg> ext4 originates from filesystems which did not like fragmented files
<geist> but a log is also the sort of file that it doesn't matter at all if it's fragmented
<geist> because you rarely really read it back anyway
<mjg> and the storage being fast is not going to make up for extra metadata
<heat> ext4 tries to patch around the issue
<mjg> is not ext4 also the fs which recommends you fsck it?
<heat> if you write everything in one go, you're golden
<mjg> :]
<heat> they all do?
<heat> it's UNIX tradition :v
<geist> right log files tend to fragment if you're just dribbling data at it over time
<mjg> heat: on crash, sure
<mjg> but standard *linux* recommendation is to fsck from time to time
<heat> i've never heard of that
<mjg> just to be safe(tm)
<mjg> no?
<heat> will never matter as fsck just skips over "clean" filesystems
<mjg> dude, you would literally get fsck after 150 or whatever days when you boot
<mjg> nope!
<mjg> well it may be this has changed past few years
<heat> you mean a forced fsck? fsck -f?
<geist> i think that's kinda changed a bit recently, actually was trying to get ubuntu server to run fsck on boot, and turns out it doesn't really work and hasn't since like 18.04
<mjg> but back in my day the system would fsck on its own
<mjg> yea
<geist> and it's just understood you can't really easily do it without booting from a usb stick
<heat> it does here
<heat> sure you can. initrd
<geist> 'easily do it'
<heat> yeah. they all have an initrd
<geist> as in the canonical way to do it is to break into initrd and run it manually
<geist> the 'recovery mode' boot that even has a menu option that says 'fsck all the disks' doesn't work
<geist> and hasn't for years
<geist> reason being that / is already mounted rw at that time
<heat> that's on them. my system does auto fsck on the /
<geist> what are you running
<heat> before mounting it I assume
<heat> arch linux (systemd)
<geist> did i not prefix all of this with 'ubuntu doesnt...'
<heat> sure, which is why "that's on them"
<geist> fine, but my point is some distros can't do it. i think debian has the same problem
<geist> and seeing as those are a sizable chunk of the distros, it's a thing that i thnik is worth pointing out
<heat> systemd and the 4 or 5 initrd generation mechanisms have support for all of this
<heat> which tbh doesn't make much sense
<heat> you could just pay attention to mount rejecting the filesystem and *then* do a fsck
<geist> in this case it's about linux not having a way to convert a rw to a ro fs after the fact
<geist> with freebsd at least the canonical way was to just remount ro and then do it, iirc
<heat> it does
<geist> i dont think so, i was poking around and couldn't find it
<heat> 1) you can manually remount ro 2) there's a behavior you can configure in ext2/3/4 to remount RO on corruption
<geist> how can you do #1?
<heat> there's also a behavior for panic on corruption :)
<heat> mount -o remount,ro ?
<geist> and yes you can `mount -r -o remount /` i think but it always fails with somethouhg busy
<geist> and that's just 'oh yeah systemd/etc etc has an open file'
<geist> which doesn't help
<heat> ah, oh well
<geist> ie, you can't force it
<heat> i don't know if the kernel-internal mechanism Just Works
<geist> that's the point, something changed in the last few years (probably systemd) that broke ubuntu/debian's fsck recovery mechanism
<geist> and the failure is that it can't remount as ro and thus doesn't work anymore
<geist> and it seems the word on the internet is 'yeah that's never gonna get fixed, if you want to fsck you can boot on a usb stick'
<heat> in theory you wouldn't need to. but I don't know how early boot debian works
<geist> one suggestino i found that kinda works is you can break into grub and add some option (i forget it already) that basically causes the kernel to halt just after it mounts initrd
<geist> and then i think breaks into a shell
<heat> you mean init=/bin/sh?
<geist> somehting like `initrd-halt` or something. a feature i hadn't seen before
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<Ermine> chkdsk
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<geist> it may actually be a switch to systemd or whatever script is running on initrd to tell it to stop
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<geist> anyway, it kinda worked, but then i lost interest in the problem and moved on. i just wanted to fsck some disks on a VM that had its NFS server pulled out from underneath it a few times, and thus could have picked up disk level corruption
<Ermine> systemd ships its own stuff for fscking
<Ermine> (afaik)
<geist> probably would need to, yeah
<heat> no? it's just regular fsck
<geist> yeah but you might have to have for example systemd stop the world so that it could do a ro remount, for example
<geist> possible the only thing in my case keeping it from remount was some journal file open somewhere that it could close
<heat> you can't ever safely fsck a mounted fs
<bslsk05> ​www.freedesktop.org: systemd-fsck@.service
<geist> yes i said so it could do a ro remount
<geist> but looks like this is more of a 'super early service you can trigger' thing
<heat> not even ro I think
<heat> if your fsck changes things I don't think there's any way to do it when mounted
<geist> classically that's what you did in something like freebsd, and if you found an error you must reboot ASAP
<geist> since it could have done precisely that
<geist> pulled metadata out from underneath the kernel
<heat> AFAIK e2fsprogs actively stops you from fsck'ing a mounted fs
<heat> yeah totally
<geist> but the idea was at least it's ro so the kernel wont stomp all over the newly fixed thing
<geist> basically ideally you were running nothing but a shell anyway at that point
<geist> oh the days before initrd, sigh.
<heat> good ol days before those dang ol fake disks
<geist> yeah things gotta be all complicated n stuff now
<geist> i still compile and run my gentoo VM as no modules no initrd no systemd
<geist> kinda fun to watch it just start up and use very little ram
<heat> aw you wouldn't
<heat> red hat disliked your message
<heat> they're now trying to take over the initrd generation in systemd too
<heat> it's nuts
<heat> mjg, what happened to your lkml thing?
<mjg> it's not good man
<mjg> i wanted to whack cpu_relax for amd64, but was to to whack it altogether
<mjg> it first showed because of itanium and itanium maintainer said he is going to whack the arch
<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git - Linux kernel source tree
<mjg> ... and now itanium users are protesting the planned removal of the arch
<mjg> >
<mjg> The computer necrophiliacs at Debian and Gentoo seem determined
<mjg> to keep ia64 alive.
<mjg> if itanium stays, this will have to be patched again
<mjg> fucking mess man
<heat> haha
<heat> that was remarkably fast eh?
<mjg> i'm not responding to the mail https://marc.info/?l=linux-arch&m=167364646924793&w=2 as i expect there will be choice words from the man himself
<bslsk05> ​marc.info: 'RE: [PATCH] lockref: stop doing cpu_relax in the cmpxchg loop' - MARC
<mjg> ye for the change at hand it defo went smooth
<mjg> until it did not, see above
<mjg> :)
<mjg> even so, i think i wrote a decent commit message
<heat> choice words?
<geist> nice!
<geist> yeah Will from arm is a good guy, i've talked to him before
<mjg> heat: i suspect there will be a rant about itanium
<mjg> i should have seen the issue with removal coming
<mjg> there is *always* some fucking guy who claims to use $thing
<heat> sure, but the man himself will be pro removal
<mjg> the q is how how much weight one puts on the guy
<mjg> well we will see
<heat> Yeah, if it was ia64-only, it's a non-issue these days. It's dead and
<heat> in pure maintenance mode from a kernel perspective (if even that).
<mjg> anyhow the funny bit is, the lockref perf bug was the one thing which kept linux vfs scalability behind freebsd
<mjg> for the benchmarks in the commit
<geist> at $work this would be one of those 'file a bug about the thing that's being removed so someone can add it back if for <special case>'
<mjg> i don't mention that bit to not steer up any shit :p
<geist> but i guess in lkml you must satisfy all the parties
<heat> you're a linux dev now mjg
<heat> gpl tainted
<mjg> you do realize i worked for red hat for 6 years
<heat> yes
<Ermine> woah, how it was like?
<heat> but now you're a linux dev again
<mjg> Ermine: it's nothing to be proud about if that's what you mean
<heat> Ermine, it sucks, they force you to wear these horrible looking fedoras!
<mjg> interview is a piece of cake
<mjg> here is a funny tidbit: i got rejected from G after an onsite interview, the evenining it got back home i got an interview invite from rh
<mjg> the interview took place few days later and was turbo easy, especially in comparison
<mjg> and then i was told that's it, i'm hired
<mjg> this should give you some idea :s
<heat> that sounds great
<Ermine> lol
<dh`> tech interviews are essentially large expensive dice
<mjg> geist: but ye, there is this idea that lkml is a hostile place
<heat> I don't think any real
<mjg> geist: but my personal experience with linux devs was mostly positive
<heat> practice). what lol
<heat> hardware implements the YIELD instruction (i.e. it behaves as a NOP in
<Ermine> at least I know where to get a job in case I fail everywhere else
<mjg> heat: ikr
<moon-child> lol redhat
<mjg> Ermine: dude cz rh office was close to ibm buildings
<heat> mjg, unix geezers where
<mjg> Ermine: interns on the truck on the wya there would fall off due to bumps on the road
<mjg> Ermine: and would be come senior devs at red hat instead
<mjg> now that ibm bought rh they got all their intended interns back
<mjg> smart move
<heat> why are you shitting so much on rh
<mjg> i'm hostting on part of rh
<mjg> i have to say it is also a great place to work if you have the right team/manager
<mjg> ... which a lot of people don't
<Ermine> this is right for any other company isnt it
<mjg> about half time time i spent at rh i rmember very fondly. tons of personal freedom to work on stuff
<heat> sure
<mjg> g has 20% proj, at rh i had more like 80%
<mjg> fuckin A in that regard
<heat> they have great talent retention
<mjg> Ermine: no, some companies suck top to bottom
<heat> so it must be good
<mjg> i am saying the bottom to get the job is basically people from the street
<mjg> you have to pretend they don't exist
<heat> is it much worse than "here's a stupid super FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG interview, gl hf"
<heat> with young people doing fucking summersaults and twerking to these companies in search for an opportunity like it's their fucking life mission to work on big tech
<heat> i did like the arm interviews I did though
<heat> very straight to the point and actually relevant to low level work
<heat> instead of "reverse this binary tree, thanks"
<mjg> to toot my own horn a little, i think i was doing great interviews from tech standpoint
<mjg> as in conducting
<mjg> as the job was about diagnosing shit in teh kernel, i woudl for example ask why it's not legal to spin_lock(foo); mutex_lock(bar);
<mjg> basically all quetsions were open-ended and *relevant*
<heat> yeah
<heat> an argument I've heard is that you give them a problem and then analyse their thought process and how they are to actually work with
<heat> which sounds more productive then "hey mr, why spinlock and then mutex no work"
<mjg> how is the spinlock -> mutex not a problem
<mjg> explain why this goes haywire... or does not!
<mjg> seems to me one has to show understanding of what's going on
<mjg> and not just recite a formula
<heat> the thought process being that anyone can learn how spinlocks and mutexes work and seeing how someone thinks and collaborates is more important
<heat> tbf this probably makes more sense in big tech like Google, etc where everyone (ok, most people) is fucking amazing and can quickly pick things up
<mjg> whatever problem you give them to work on
<mjg> can literally get the same comment
<mjg> just try me dawg
<mjg> > bro that's a well known intv problem they pre-memorized
<mjg> is one possibler esponse
<mjg> i got more, just show me what you got
<heat> sure, and that sucks
<heat> I wouldn't ask you to reverse a binary tree because who tf does that
<mjg> not really answering my q
<mjg> give me "shows how the candidate" thinks problem
<mjg> darn, misplaced "
<heat> ok, someone I worked with always used the same question: implement a stack
<mjg> lol it's a first year student exercise
<mjg> next
<heat> sure is, until it doesn't work
<heat> because the N is too large for your shitty O(n) solution
<mjg> ? D:
<heat> that question is a multi-layered problem
<mjg> how peole end up with non-O(1) stacks?
<heat> pop()
<mjg> > I suspect nobody will notice, and if ia64 is the only reason to do
<mjg> > this, I really don't think it would be worth it.
<heat> if you're using an array or something, which you should. if not, perf is probably slow enough
<mjg> i thought there would be a rant, but here it goes
<heat> he explained it to me as "it's a multi layered question. first they implement a basic stack, then they will see it doesn't exactly work with how large the problem set is, so the extra effort goes into making it work for very large N's"
* moon-child awaits the rant