<epony>
so it is present on server rated hardware as bmc and have integration with the machine i/o superchip and power management
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<zid>
surprisingly quiet without heat
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<gog>
hi
<dinkelhacker>
hi^^
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<kaichiuchi>
hi
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<sham1>
hi
<kaichiuchi>
hi
<Ermine>
hi
<sham1>
Uug, two more hours at work with having done all the work. Boredom
<gog>
i have a lot to do and 5 hours left
<gog>
but it's lunch and then i have a short appointment
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<zid>
I have choice cuts of free range chicken in a luxurious breading, atop finest aromatic rice, with a medley of mediterranean vegetable pureé
<gog>
tasty
<zid>
chicken nuggies and ketchup <3
<moon-child>
chicken nuggets on rice?
<zid>
yea is good
<zid>
make sure you salt the nuggets, and use good rice
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<zid>
sorry I mean, the breaded choice chicken cuts
<gog>
i'm gonna go get burger and fries and a beer
<zid>
I could beer..
<zid>
I have a box from christmas I've been taking the odd one out of when I feel like an beer
<moon-child>
beer meh
<zid>
don't really drink much
* moon-child
prefers wine
<zid>
and whine
<zid>
I don't mind wine but I can't say I actually enjoy it
<Ermine>
Moonshine
<zid>
I genuinely like a nice pint of bitter every few weeks
<Ermine>
Can you say for metric system people how much is it?
<zid>
That is metric.
<zid>
It's one hundredth of 100 pints
<zid>
and 1000x as much as a millipint
<moon-child>
Ermine, zid is an imperialist
<zid>
(It just isn't SI)
<zid>
The four standard units of length, mass, time and beer.
<zid>
meters, newtons, seconds, pints
<Ermine>
moon-child: yeah
<moon-child>
newtons are mass?
<Ermine>
and pascals are the force
<zid>
kilos are weight, or something? science is hard.
<moon-child>
no, kilos are mass
<moon-child>
newtons are force
<moon-child>
iirc, N = kg*m/s^2?
<Ermine>
And gogs per bazingas is velocity
<moon-child>
indeed
<zid>
a moon-child is 1/1000th of a heat
<zid>
which I suppose makes him equivalent to a millikelvin?
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<dminuoso>
moon-child: confusing weight with mass is so common, but understandable given that most humans havent left the mostly uniformly constant gravity at the earth surface.
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<kaichiuchi>
heat: let us count together
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<Ermine>
heat: am I supposed to use onyx master?
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<kaichiuchi>
Ermine: you’re now known as Ermac to me
<kaichiuchi>
because i cannot stop initially reading your nick properly
<kaichiuchi>
improperly*
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<sham1>
Ermacs
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<Ermine>
heat: minimal sysroot link not working :\
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<heat>
Ermine, hi, yes master
<heat>
would it work for you if you used one of the prebuilts?
<heat>
they're all built in CI so you can trust em
<heat>
(or ... just follow CI)
<Ermine>
Yes I guess
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<Ermine>
You mean using Onyx ISO from CI artifacts?
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<heat>
no, I mean one of the toolchains
<heat>
if you're set on building that is
<Ermine>
Ah
<heat>
Ermine, fwiw, the minimal sysroots are right beside the toolchains in the CI output :))
<Ermine>
Yeah, found it
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<kaichiuchi>
hi
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<heat>
Ermine, dont know what you're looking at but I have a nice wrapper script that does things
<bslsk05>
defrag.shiplift.dev: Defrag - By ShipLift LLC
<Ermine>
It refreshed the page before finishing :(
<geist>
you must start anew
<mjg>
oh hehe
<mjg>
you know, on my first PC there was scandisk from microsoft and a variant from symantec
<geist>
the 'files' are laid out a little too randomly for me, if there was a bit of clustering it'd look much more realistic
<mjg>
the disk was clean, except for one block where they "argued"
<geist>
if it weren't written in js i'd consider fixing it up
<mjg>
as in you run scandisk, it claims the block is crap and it can fix it
<mjg>
then it is clean
<mjg>
you run the symantec variant, same story
<geist>
ah, it should have just marked it bad block and move on
<mjg>
i don't know if it was a bad block
<mjg>
i do know it did not like *something* about it
<geist>
in FAT that's basically a particular sentinel token in the FAT that caused it to be avoided forever
<geist>
ah
<mjg>
this reminds of a funzy
<mjg>
i swear i have a memory of creating *two* files with the same name ona floppy drive from norton commander
<heat>
you know, i liked defragging
<heat>
it feels very satisfying
<mjg>
and then it failing to read the disk
<geist>
100%. to this day i love defragging, except you dont really want to do it on SSDs
<geist>
which is a sads
<mjg>
i was never able to replicate tho
<mjg>
geist: is this why you keep the old shit around?
<heat>
geist, which i still don't understand. how is random access as good as sequential?
<heat>
it's just not. it's impossible
<mjg>
no seek time?
<heat>
doesn't matter
<mjg>
how so
<geist>
heat: i think with modern nvme and ssd it's basically the same
<heat>
ssds cache heavily
<heat>
they have what, 4-8GB of DRAM? how do you cache when doing random access
<mjg>
i'm sayin seek time may be small enough that you remain limited by other factors
<geist>
specifically even if you have to issue 10 transactions to do the same thing, with NCQ and or nvme you can just issue it all at once
<heat>
even then, there's almost an understanding in linux that when doing ext4 you don't need to defrag because "the operating system deals with it"
<heat>
which is authentically BS
<geist>
but yeah i think there's a teensy bit of an advantage to defragging highly fragmented individual files
<geist>
but only then it's a tradeoff of lifetime of SSD
<geist>
i have a defrag app on windows that can scan everything and then give you a list of the worst files and you can selectively defrag those, so sometimes i do, like a VM file that has 200k frags, etc
<geist>
but i figure mostly you're also reducing the list of fragments in the FILE record
<geist>
does it matter? probably not
<mjg>
ext4?
<geist>
heat: re: caching most of the reason the SSDs have a lot of dram (and some dont actually) is to hold the translation table in memory
<heat>
my pacman.log (package manager log) has 143 extents for just 2.2MB
<mjg>
i'm confident you need to defrag the shit ouf that one
<mjg>
that's the point
<mjg>
ext4 originates from filesystems which did not like fragmented files
<geist>
but a log is also the sort of file that it doesn't matter at all if it's fragmented
<geist>
because you rarely really read it back anyway
<mjg>
and the storage being fast is not going to make up for extra metadata
<heat>
ext4 tries to patch around the issue
<mjg>
is not ext4 also the fs which recommends you fsck it?
<heat>
if you write everything in one go, you're golden
<mjg>
:]
<heat>
they all do?
<heat>
it's UNIX tradition :v
<geist>
right log files tend to fragment if you're just dribbling data at it over time
<mjg>
heat: on crash, sure
<mjg>
but standard *linux* recommendation is to fsck from time to time
<heat>
i've never heard of that
<mjg>
just to be safe(tm)
<mjg>
no?
<heat>
will never matter as fsck just skips over "clean" filesystems
<mjg>
dude, you would literally get fsck after 150 or whatever days when you boot
<mjg>
nope!
<mjg>
well it may be this has changed past few years
<heat>
you mean a forced fsck? fsck -f?
<geist>
i think that's kinda changed a bit recently, actually was trying to get ubuntu server to run fsck on boot, and turns out it doesn't really work and hasn't since like 18.04
<mjg>
but back in my day the system would fsck on its own
<mjg>
yea
<geist>
and it's just understood you can't really easily do it without booting from a usb stick
<heat>
it does here
<heat>
sure you can. initrd
<geist>
'easily do it'
<heat>
yeah. they all have an initrd
<geist>
as in the canonical way to do it is to break into initrd and run it manually
<geist>
the 'recovery mode' boot that even has a menu option that says 'fsck all the disks' doesn't work
<geist>
and hasn't for years
<geist>
reason being that / is already mounted rw at that time
<heat>
that's on them. my system does auto fsck on the /
<geist>
what are you running
<heat>
before mounting it I assume
<heat>
arch linux (systemd)
<geist>
did i not prefix all of this with 'ubuntu doesnt...'
<heat>
sure, which is why "that's on them"
<geist>
fine, but my point is some distros can't do it. i think debian has the same problem
<geist>
and seeing as those are a sizable chunk of the distros, it's a thing that i thnik is worth pointing out
<heat>
systemd and the 4 or 5 initrd generation mechanisms have support for all of this
<heat>
which tbh doesn't make much sense
<heat>
you could just pay attention to mount rejecting the filesystem and *then* do a fsck
<geist>
in this case it's about linux not having a way to convert a rw to a ro fs after the fact
<geist>
with freebsd at least the canonical way was to just remount ro and then do it, iirc
<heat>
it does
<geist>
i dont think so, i was poking around and couldn't find it
<heat>
1) you can manually remount ro 2) there's a behavior you can configure in ext2/3/4 to remount RO on corruption
<geist>
how can you do #1?
<heat>
there's also a behavior for panic on corruption :)
<heat>
mount -o remount,ro ?
<geist>
and yes you can `mount -r -o remount /` i think but it always fails with somethouhg busy
<geist>
and that's just 'oh yeah systemd/etc etc has an open file'
<geist>
which doesn't help
<heat>
ah, oh well
<geist>
ie, you can't force it
<heat>
i don't know if the kernel-internal mechanism Just Works
<geist>
that's the point, something changed in the last few years (probably systemd) that broke ubuntu/debian's fsck recovery mechanism
<geist>
and the failure is that it can't remount as ro and thus doesn't work anymore
<geist>
and it seems the word on the internet is 'yeah that's never gonna get fixed, if you want to fsck you can boot on a usb stick'
<heat>
in theory you wouldn't need to. but I don't know how early boot debian works
<geist>
one suggestino i found that kinda works is you can break into grub and add some option (i forget it already) that basically causes the kernel to halt just after it mounts initrd
<geist>
and then i think breaks into a shell
<heat>
you mean init=/bin/sh?
<geist>
somehting like `initrd-halt` or something. a feature i hadn't seen before
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<Ermine>
chkdsk
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<geist>
it may actually be a switch to systemd or whatever script is running on initrd to tell it to stop
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<geist>
anyway, it kinda worked, but then i lost interest in the problem and moved on. i just wanted to fsck some disks on a VM that had its NFS server pulled out from underneath it a few times, and thus could have picked up disk level corruption
<Ermine>
systemd ships its own stuff for fscking
<Ermine>
(afaik)
<geist>
probably would need to, yeah
<heat>
no? it's just regular fsck
<geist>
yeah but you might have to have for example systemd stop the world so that it could do a ro remount, for example
<geist>
possible the only thing in my case keeping it from remount was some journal file open somewhere that it could close
<bslsk05>
marc.info: 'RE: [PATCH] lockref: stop doing cpu_relax in the cmpxchg loop' - MARC
<mjg>
ye for the change at hand it defo went smooth
<mjg>
until it did not, see above
<mjg>
:)
<mjg>
even so, i think i wrote a decent commit message
<heat>
choice words?
<geist>
nice!
<geist>
yeah Will from arm is a good guy, i've talked to him before
<mjg>
heat: i suspect there will be a rant about itanium
<mjg>
i should have seen the issue with removal coming
<mjg>
there is *always* some fucking guy who claims to use $thing
<heat>
sure, but the man himself will be pro removal
<mjg>
the q is how how much weight one puts on the guy
<mjg>
well we will see
<heat>
Yeah, if it was ia64-only, it's a non-issue these days. It's dead and
<heat>
in pure maintenance mode from a kernel perspective (if even that).
<mjg>
anyhow the funny bit is, the lockref perf bug was the one thing which kept linux vfs scalability behind freebsd
<mjg>
for the benchmarks in the commit
<geist>
at $work this would be one of those 'file a bug about the thing that's being removed so someone can add it back if for <special case>'
<mjg>
i don't mention that bit to not steer up any shit :p
<geist>
but i guess in lkml you must satisfy all the parties
<heat>
you're a linux dev now mjg
<heat>
gpl tainted
<mjg>
you do realize i worked for red hat for 6 years
<heat>
yes
<Ermine>
woah, how it was like?
<heat>
but now you're a linux dev again
<mjg>
Ermine: it's nothing to be proud about if that's what you mean
<heat>
Ermine, it sucks, they force you to wear these horrible looking fedoras!
<mjg>
interview is a piece of cake
<mjg>
here is a funny tidbit: i got rejected from G after an onsite interview, the evenining it got back home i got an interview invite from rh
<mjg>
the interview took place few days later and was turbo easy, especially in comparison
<mjg>
and then i was told that's it, i'm hired
<mjg>
this should give you some idea :s
<heat>
that sounds great
<Ermine>
lol
<dh`>
tech interviews are essentially large expensive dice
<mjg>
geist: but ye, there is this idea that lkml is a hostile place
<heat>
I don't think any real
<mjg>
geist: but my personal experience with linux devs was mostly positive
<heat>
practice). what lol
<heat>
hardware implements the YIELD instruction (i.e. it behaves as a NOP in
<Ermine>
at least I know where to get a job in case I fail everywhere else
<mjg>
heat: ikr
<moon-child>
lol redhat
<mjg>
Ermine: dude cz rh office was close to ibm buildings
<heat>
mjg, unix geezers where
<mjg>
Ermine: interns on the truck on the wya there would fall off due to bumps on the road
<mjg>
Ermine: and would be come senior devs at red hat instead
<mjg>
now that ibm bought rh they got all their intended interns back
<mjg>
smart move
<heat>
why are you shitting so much on rh
<mjg>
i'm hostting on part of rh
<mjg>
i have to say it is also a great place to work if you have the right team/manager
<mjg>
... which a lot of people don't
<Ermine>
this is right for any other company isnt it
<mjg>
about half time time i spent at rh i rmember very fondly. tons of personal freedom to work on stuff
<heat>
sure
<mjg>
g has 20% proj, at rh i had more like 80%
<mjg>
fuckin A in that regard
<heat>
they have great talent retention
<mjg>
Ermine: no, some companies suck top to bottom
<heat>
so it must be good
<mjg>
i am saying the bottom to get the job is basically people from the street
<mjg>
you have to pretend they don't exist
<heat>
is it much worse than "here's a stupid super FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG interview, gl hf"
<heat>
with young people doing fucking summersaults and twerking to these companies in search for an opportunity like it's their fucking life mission to work on big tech
<heat>
i did like the arm interviews I did though
<heat>
very straight to the point and actually relevant to low level work
<heat>
instead of "reverse this binary tree, thanks"
<mjg>
to toot my own horn a little, i think i was doing great interviews from tech standpoint
<mjg>
as in conducting
<mjg>
as the job was about diagnosing shit in teh kernel, i woudl for example ask why it's not legal to spin_lock(foo); mutex_lock(bar);
<mjg>
basically all quetsions were open-ended and *relevant*
<heat>
yeah
<heat>
an argument I've heard is that you give them a problem and then analyse their thought process and how they are to actually work with
<heat>
which sounds more productive then "hey mr, why spinlock and then mutex no work"
<mjg>
how is the spinlock -> mutex not a problem
<mjg>
explain why this goes haywire... or does not!
<mjg>
seems to me one has to show understanding of what's going on
<mjg>
and not just recite a formula
<heat>
the thought process being that anyone can learn how spinlocks and mutexes work and seeing how someone thinks and collaborates is more important
<heat>
tbf this probably makes more sense in big tech like Google, etc where everyone (ok, most people) is fucking amazing and can quickly pick things up
<mjg>
whatever problem you give them to work on
<mjg>
can literally get the same comment
<mjg>
just try me dawg
<mjg>
> bro that's a well known intv problem they pre-memorized
<mjg>
is one possibler esponse
<mjg>
i got more, just show me what you got
<heat>
sure, and that sucks
<heat>
I wouldn't ask you to reverse a binary tree because who tf does that
<mjg>
not really answering my q
<mjg>
give me "shows how the candidate" thinks problem
<mjg>
darn, misplaced "
<heat>
ok, someone I worked with always used the same question: implement a stack
<mjg>
lol it's a first year student exercise
<mjg>
next
<heat>
sure is, until it doesn't work
<heat>
because the N is too large for your shitty O(n) solution
<mjg>
? D:
<heat>
that question is a multi-layered problem
<mjg>
how peole end up with non-O(1) stacks?
<heat>
pop()
<mjg>
> I suspect nobody will notice, and if ia64 is the only reason to do
<mjg>
> this, I really don't think it would be worth it.
<heat>
if you're using an array or something, which you should. if not, perf is probably slow enough
<mjg>
i thought there would be a rant, but here it goes
<heat>
he explained it to me as "it's a multi layered question. first they implement a basic stack, then they will see it doesn't exactly work with how large the problem set is, so the extra effort goes into making it work for very large N's"