klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kazinsal> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/215216/high-throughput-fizz-buzz/236630#236630 -- "On my computer (which has a fairly recent, but not particularly powerful, Intel processor), this program generates around 31GiB of FizzBuzz per second."
<bslsk05> ​codegolf.stackexchange.com: fastest code - High throughput Fizz Buzz - Code Golf Stack Exchange
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<jjuran> Good news if you have mission-critical FizzBuzz requirements
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<geist> question: ages ago a topic came up in the channel re: which MMIO instructions you should pick on x86 for optimal KVM emulation
<MelMalik> ;-;
<geist> iirc, there was some note somewhere that said something to the effect of 'if you use this simple MOV instruction form for register accesses, the emulation in the kernel has a fast path'
<geist> i cannot find it yet, and have been tracing through the KVM emulator but dont see the special case
<Mutabah> Might just be "pick the simplest form to reduce branching"?
<geist> but iirc it was something like use 'mov %rax, [%rdx]' and 'mov [%rdx], %rax' for all MMIO accesses
<geist> yah that's almost certainly the case anyway, like avoid complicated addressing modes and whatnot
<geist> we just bumped into a case in zircon where darn clang was emitting a SSE XMM -> MEM move instruction for a MMIO write
<geist> which libvirt and/or KVM threw up on and tossed a #UD
<geist> there was a loop preceeding the register wwrite that was accumulating bits from multiple sources, and the darn compiler autovectorized it and did it in parallel, then shuffled the bits in a XMM register and tried to store it
<geist> basically i have for years been getting awawy with volatile memory accesses for MMIOs but that day of reckoning is upon us
<geist> *really* you should force all MMIO accesses through soe sort of inline asm to force the compiler to use precisely the instruction you want
<Mutabah> and also reduce the chance of the compiler deciding to do a spurious read/write
<geist> even on something like ARM the compiler is technically free to break it into multi read/writes though i think in practice no compiler will do so (yet)
<geist> but yeah i dont see a fast path
<geist> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/kvm/emulate.c#L5017 seems to be more or less the top of the decoder
<bslsk05> ​github.com: linux/emulate.c at master · torvalds/linux · GitHub
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<geist> looks like linux itself uses `mov "m", "r"` for its inline asm in mmio_read/mmio_write so that's probably sufficient
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<cooligans> Hello!
<cheapie> I've noticed that at https://wiki.osdev.org/AHCI#Detect_attached_SATA_devices there is a claim that "there are four kinds of SATA devices". As far as I can tell, this is inaccurate as host-managed zoned drives (ATA ZAC, in this case) are considered to be their own type, with their own signature.
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: AHCI - OSDev Wiki
<cheapie> If I'm correctly understanding the mapping between the fields and the way that code snippet handles them, the signature would be 0xABCD0101.
<cheapie> I would edit it myself, but I'm not sure if it's been left out for a reason, and I'm not experienced enough with this sort of development to be sure I got it right.
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<help> Is this server always this empty, or is it just my wifi
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<GeDaMo> It's not empty!
<GeDaMo> The activity level varies depending on time of day
<cooligans> ooh
<cooligans> I thought it was empty, since IRC is not like Discord
<cooligans> Discord you can see how many people are online at a given time
<cooligans> afaik you can't do that with IRC
<cheapie> It's possible to mark yourself as away/not away, but most people don't bother.
<GeDaMo> I can see a user list, 218 in this channel
<GeDaMo> Your client may have a way of showing who's in the channel
<cooligans> nvm, I found what you're talking about
<cooligans> I can see 218 also
<junon> Most servers give you the userlist and also server/network stats sometimes too
<junon> Not mandatory per the spec thoug
<cooligans> ok
<MelMalik> on IRC everyone is online unless they're disconnected. If they're away, they get set away and some IRC software reflects that
<MelMalik> if they're disconnected they don't receive messages
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<Bitweasil> Yup. And even if they have a bouncer set up, that'll relay (most) stuff.
<junon> irc is just a glorified transport protocol, typically plaintext as opposed to binary (there are some extensions/exceptions).
<junon> What you do on top of it per-server is up to you. E.g. services (nickserv/chanserv/whatever) are just users on the network that have elevated privileges to the rest of the network, all of which is defined at the application level - not (entirely) by the IRC spec
<junon> e.g. halfop and stuff I don't think is specified by IRC, but is just a widely accepted mode, since servers can also create custom modes and whatnot
<Ameisen_> another interesting optimization test, based on an /r/cpp post
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<Ameisen_> don't ask for MSVC results (or ICC). They're both depressing.
<clever> sometimes, the irc services (nickserv/chanserv) are not actually clients to an irc server, but rather a whole irc server, that lies about clients connected to it
<clever> so those servers have direct control of the server<->server protocol
<clever> services*
<junon> MSVC doesn't even compile even for /std:c++latest
<junon> curious, has anyone actually done any OSDev with MSVC compilers? I'm struggling to think how that'd work.
<junon> Unless you (ab)use its native format or whatever, and then write a custom bootloader to be able to load it or something.
<Bitweasil> The EFI firmware builds with MSVC, so...
<GeDaMo> Presumably Microsoft do :|
<Bitweasil> I've done plenty of work in that space with MSVC, I don't care for it (the lack of inline assembly in 64-bit is annoying).
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<Bitweasil> But it's not particularly painful, just carry around a intrinsics.h/intrinsics.S file that has leaf functions for all the crap you'd want to do in inline asm and it's fine.
<junon> Yes :|
* Bitweasil wanders off to go dig in the dirt.
<junon> How do you do that? If intrinsic.h is just prototypes for the .S stubs, that's still incurring `call` overhead right?
<Bitweasil> Yea.
<Bitweasil> But those functions aren't doing anything with the stack, just "load value into rax and return."
<junon> :| there's no optimizing assembler that I know of that could handle that gracefully
<Bitweasil> For stuff like vmread, in/out, vmcall, etc.
<junon> like, inlining intrinsics like that. It'd be nice to do that in a cross platform way, at least.
<junon> Yeah I suppose. Still annoying.
<Bitweasil> *shrug* When they're hardware specific, how do you cross platform them?
<Bitweasil> What's "in" or "out" mean on ARM? Utterly nothing.
<Bitweasil> The platform lacks the concept of port IO entirely.
<junon> That's cross-arch for me, but my point was more the tools were cross platform
<Bitweasil> Oh, ok.
<junon> to be able to write intrinsics like that without needing inline asm, and still inline the .S stubs when they're used from C
<junon> like macros almost, but done at codegen time
<Bitweasil> I think Microsoft's answer is that you call the intrinsics, but they lack ring 0 intrinsics.
<Bitweasil> So no idea what they do for Windows.
<Bitweasil> Anyway, dirt, later! :D
<junon> Probably hand written asm
<junon> have fun with the dirt!
<graphitemaster> Going to ask this here because I cannot find an answer anywhere in POSIX or UNIX
<graphitemaster> write/send/sendto/what ever on a NONBLOCK socket will always transfer the whole thing right?
<graphitemaster> Is it possible for it to write some of the bytes and return EAGAIN
<graphitemaster> I know that is possible for read/recv/recvfrom/what ever
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<graphitemaster> I guess there is three cases
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<ZetItUp> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7EVbT0W9uU live cyber security class
<bslsk05> ​'CS50 2021 - Cybersecurity (pre-release) 2021-10-29 17:23' by CS50 (live)
<Ameisen_> junon - I have
<josuah> It is talking about time it would take to crack something
<Ameisen_> I have a toolchain that handles both reduction of PE binaries to flattened binaries for multiboot or such, and also handles EFI output.
<josuah> it yet has to proove it is not soho security :)
<Ameisen_> there are things you have to consider though
<Ameisen_> like MSVC does not allow inline assembly with x86-64
<junon> Ameisen_: so you're re-packaging PE files to the desired format?
<Ameisen_> right
<junon> Interesting
<josuah> even though soho security is possibly the most challenged out in the wild, and first source of breaches
<Ameisen_> I parse them and basically expand the sections beforehand
<Ameisen_> so it's a raw binary
<Ameisen_> I also handle certain relocations
<junon> Did you write that tooling yourself? I can't imagine that was a trivial thing to write, haha
<Ameisen_> I wrote it myself
<Ameisen_> depends on what you mean by trivial
<Ameisen_> parsing PE binaries isn't hard
<Ameisen_> they're no more complex, really, than ELFs
<Ameisen_> the bigger problem is realizing that you have to do it in the first place
<Ameisen_> a lot of the older MSVC tutorials for osdev _didn't do it)
<Ameisen_> and would just say "if certain sections get larger than this it doesn't work"
<Ameisen_> while neglecting to realize that it's because it's not a flat binary
<Ameisen_> I suspect tooling exists to do it
<bslsk05> ​docs.microsoft.com: PE Format - Win32 apps | Microsoft Docs
<Ameisen_> wouldn't be surprised if common tools could, I just wanted no dependencies
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<help> junon: My osdev project that I am currently working on compiles under MSVC/GCC/Clang, but only runs under MSVC/Clang, I am working on getting the GCC version to work
<junon> Huh interesting.
<help> its a pain
<help> but it works
<zid> help is in opposite land
<junon> Is there a benefit to putting in the work to support MSVC builds?
<junon> Aside from the obvious (MSVC only devs can compile it, of course)
<help> MSVC/Clang also generate PDBs, which is my second-to-main point of implementing MSVC support
<help> besides my os is NT based (takes *many* concepts from Windows), and you can't really have a NT-Style OS withought MSVC support
<help> it took a lot of work at first
<help> but i don't modify much these days
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<Ameisen_> you can technically get line-by-line debugging working in MSVC.
<Ameisen_> technically.
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<geist> yep!
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<geist> also yay responding to something while scrolled up
<geist> anyway hi!
<gog> hi!
<junon> yep!
<gog> yep!
<geist> roger!
<HeTo> 10-4
<jimbzy> mmhmmm
<j`ey> HeTo: ummm 6!
<jimbzy> j`ey, 10 - 4 = 720?
<j`ey> jimbzy: you out bamboozled me!
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<zid> Can anyone help me solve 39+9(12-3)? I keep getting 5!
<gog> it's uh
<gog> 120?
<gog> 39+81
<dude12312414> nice troll
<zid> ohhh right the answer is 6!
<zid> thanks gog
<gog> lmao
<zid> no no, I think it's 5!
<zid> tricking me, geez
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<gog> breh
<gog> broh
<gog> brah
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<jimbzy> bruv
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<eryjus> zid, i think your PEMDAS is broken...
<junon> yeah seems like he's using SADMEP
<junon> hope the mep gets happier soon :c
<jimbzy> PEMDAS is evil.
<gog> please excuse my dumb ass self
<jimbzy> GEMA works much better than PEMDAS.
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<jimbzy> Grouping symbols, Exponent operations, Multiplicative operations, Additive operations.
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<gog> that makes more sense
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<jimbzy> gog, I think it does, and it has really helped some of the people I have tutored.
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<gog> yes
<gog> with the confusion over which is first between MD and AS
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<zid> gog: 9*9 = 81, 81+39 = 120, 120 = 5!
<zid> Yes, I am a massive troll.
* gog pets zid
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<phy1729> zid: next time try 200-100/2-25+0/5
<phy1729> wait dammit that's 125 for real, do you know how hard it is to solve an equation the right AND wrong way at the same time?
<phy1729> -30+0/4
<_eryjus> the answer is: pistachio ice cream
<gog> mmmm pistaschio
<zid> too expensive, how about a packet of cheap peanuts
<gog> damn now i want gelato
* cheapie waves to gog
<gog> oh hey
* gog pets cheapie
* cheapie purrs
<cheapie> I was mostly just here for my usual "hey your <thing> doesn't support host managed zoned devices" thing again... there wasn't much interest in that :P
<gog> i just idle here lately
<gog> i haven't even looked at my kernel code in two weeks
<cheapie> (specifically https://wiki.osdev.org/AHCI#Detect_attached_SATA_devices - I *think* it just lumps them in with non-zoned drives)
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: AHCI - OSDev Wiki
<zid> 2 weeks? no need to show off
<zid> I've not looked at mine in like 4 months
<cheapie> I don't even *have* one, or any plans to make one :P
<gog> i didn't really do much to it. mostly looked at the mess i've made of it and considered a git rebase
<zid> even more boasting
<gog> if i was boasting i'd be bragging about how hot and annoying i am
<klange> I got this same panic a week or two ago but sans traceback (wasn't printing one) and now that I have the traceback I know exactly what's happening - it's a file descriptor leak!
<zid> I think your cpuinfo might have a small issue there klange
<klange> It's not the cpuinfo.
<klange> That was run four days ago.
<cheapie> If I wanted to do boasting stuff I'd just link to https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/IMG_20211020_154149058.jpg all the time :P
<zid> oh it just eventually reallocs the fdset and explodes on the size?
<klange> The panic is from the system monitor app leaking a file descriptor.
<zid> oh dang
<zid> I was happy i recently picked up a 4TB
<cheapie> (hey, it's almost on topic, it's a device of the type in question)
<zid> I did the riskiest thing in the world and bought it 2nd hand with no warrenty, but it appears to work
<gog> what are you gonna fill that 20TB with
<cheapie> This one has no warranty either (was a sample from the manufacturer) but also appears to work.
<klange> It has a few different things it's constantly reopening to check status, and it wasn't closing one of them (network device ioctl interface)
<zid> well if you get bored of it I can give you my address :p
<klange> So every second it would open two or more of these to gather rx/tx counts, and after sitting for a few days eventually the descriptor table in the kernel would reach the point the safety check for the kernel heap was just like nah you done
<gog> klange: so you can fix it then?
<zid> ye just fclose
<klange> Sure, just add the missing close()
<gog> heh
<cheapie> zid: The person I was talking to asked me to not sell it. I would think giving it away falls under that too, more or less :P
<klange> Without the traceback I had no idea who was being naughty with the heap :)
* gog gets naughty on the heap
<gog> it was me
* cheapie kernel panics at gog
<zid> cheapie: Nobody has to know, we'll file the serial number out of the firmware
<gog> yes
<gog> do it
<zid> and if anybody asks, I am your NAS
<zid> It just happens to be attached by a few miles of tesco's finest clothesline
<cheapie> The fun part is that there's basically no documentation for this model either. Try searching Google for the model number (WSH722020ALN604).
<zid> yea I bet, if it's an eng sample
<cheapie> There is at least documentation for the WSH722020ALN6L4, so *shrug*.
<gog> what's the difference betwen the 604 and the 6L4?
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<zid> I have a..
<cheapie> 604 has the power disable "feature", 6L4 does not.
<gog> aha
<gog> power disable as in for staggered spinup?
<zid> WD1001FALS-00J7B1 and WD40EFRX-68WT0N0
<cheapie> You know, the one where putting 3.3V on pin 3 (which used to be a 3.3V pin) makes it not work...
<zid> 1TB black, 4TB red (not the shingled one)
<cheapie> gog: Supposedly for remote reset support with some fancy backplane.
<zid> That 1TB black is godlike
<gog> oh i see
<cheapie> zid: This thing *is* shingled, but it's host-managed.
<zid> Power on hours count: 0x19762
<zid> 11 years of uptime
<cheapie> If we're doing power on hours: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/146k.png
<zid> *possibly* it's over-reporting on that one I feel
<zid> Is it full of exotic gasses that can leak
<cheapie> It's not, it was put into service in 2003 and ran almost nonstop from then until last year.
<zid> 20TB in 2003?
<zid> oh GB
<zid> haha
<cheapie> The 20TB one is from this year. The 20GB one is a bit older :P
<cheapie> And yes, the 20TB one is helium-filled, the 20GB one is of course not.
<zid> yea my black is from 07 and has basically not been turned off
<zid> except for reboots
<gog> i had a trio of seagate 250GB disks that are probably still running in my old rig
<gog> got them all in 2009
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<cheapie> I have an ST3000DM001 here that still works, somehow.
<zid> Drives tend to be sealed and fine forever, for slighly dusty inside and fail immediately, I've found
<zid> until the bearings go, anyway, but I've not had a modern bearing go either
<gog> this was from a pretty solid set of products
<gog> back when seagate didn't suck
<zid> when I was a kid I'd get through like a few 1-10GB drives a year scrouged from people's PCs and ewaste and stuff
<gog> they'll probably outlast the SSDs i put in
<cheapie> I have products from both before and after when Seagate sucked, but a perhaps alarming number from during the time they did :P
<zid> My SSD's got a lot of write endurance left on it, even though windows is slowly chewing through it
<zid> and by slowly I mean rapidly
<cheapie> I think the worst SSD I have here is at like 90%, but we've had some where I work that are down to around 60% already.
<zid> I know someone doing chia so he's cooked a few
<gog> lol whoops
<zid> It's like every other crypto, it turns hardware into internet points
<zid> or I guess, electricity into ewaste :P
<zid> speaking of ewaste, I need to get a new monitor
<gog> and fossil fuels into CO2
<zid> mine is dying but I don't wanna crack it open and try fix it until I have a spare
<zid> some monitors are awful for going back together, lots of glue and easily snapped ribbon cables and stuff
<zid> chia friendo just bought some fancy new OLED monitor for lots of money, and apparently the backlight goes nuts as he scrolls webpages because it does auto-backlight shenanigans to try keep the OLEDs as un-powered as possible
<zid> so that they last longer than a few weeks
<gog> my phone has an oled screen and i noticed that it's prone to ghosting
<gog> i was worried at first but it faded
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<gog> then it blocked me on social media and didn't return any of my texts
<gog> ha-ha
<zid> die
* gog dies
<zid> The world is at peace again
* gog haunts zid with her hot, annoying ghost
<kazinsal> boo!(bs)
* kazinsal shows himself out, rapidly
<gog> i wish :{
<zid> do ghosts have genitals
<gog> god i hope not
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<zid> bit of a tease if they do imo
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<junon> this channel got weird
<junon> s'pose it's almost halloween anyway
<klange> This channel has always been weird.
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<junon> :D
<MelMalik> Osdev is weird
<gog> it attracts innately weird people i think
<gog> which is part of why i love y'all
<gog> <3
<zid> we should be careful about conversations like this :p
<gog> agreed
<MelMalik> eh, i'm not really an osdev
<MelMalik> maybe i will be
<zid> first step is apparently to wonder if ghosts have boobs
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<junon> osdev is laden with philosophy which entails a lot of weird people.
<MelMalik> philosophy
<MelMalik> lol
<junon> I mean, templeOS is a literal manifestation of that lol
<gog> rest in peace terry
<klange> at least the cia is no longer after him
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<gog> nah they're after me now
<kazinsal> taken down not by the cia, but by BNSF
<gog> kazinsal: ooooooooof
<junon> what's the context behind the CIA thing?
<gog> terry was schitzophrenic and had paranoid delusions
<kazinsal> terry was severely mentally ill and believed that the CIA and black people were conspiring to assassinate him
<gog> alternatively, the CIA actually was after him and is just terribly incompetent
<junon> I see
<klange> Turns out it was trains. Trains were conspiring to assassinate him.
<kazinsal> gog: well, the CIA *is* terribly incompetent
<gog> kazinsal: that's where i was going with that lmao
<kazinsal> clearly it's dark humour hour in #osdev
<kazinsal> OS related chat: I am currently dealing with the most horrible command-line interface I think I've had to use in years. it's an old NetApp 7-Mode CLI, and it's like using a weird alternate-universe unix with no man pages and most of the commands are storage-related
<kazinsal> and it's old enough that the documentation is extremely hard to find and mostly just says "WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS PLEASE UPGRADE YOUR SYSTEM"
<kazinsal> with a little disclaimer that says "upgrading from 7-mode to Clustered Ontap will make you want to forsake technology forever"
<gog> lol
<gog> the cure is worse than the disease, in a sense
<kazinsal> Clustered ONTAP is the way you want to run NetApp filers but the upgrade process from 7-Mode to Clustered ONTAP takes like eight hours and has a whole bunch of terrible potential failure points
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<kazinsal> most enterprise platforms with bespoke CLIs have context-sensitive help systems where if you type a question mark it will immediately print a detailed help thing for the command you've started tpying
<kazinsal> 7-Mode does not.
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<kazinsal> you have to type ? and then hit enter, which then just dumps basically a list of switches or subcommands with no descriptions or actual help
<kazinsal> and also clears your command buffer so you have to type the whole thing again
<kazinsal> it is arguable that this CLI is actually worse than the shitty quick debugging one in my osdev project
<kazinsal> because at least if I type ? in my CLI, it prints out some useful information and lets you keep typing from where the ? was
<zid> netsh is the thing I sometimes use with the weirdest interface
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<kazinsal> oh christ, this storage system is so old it doesn't have distributed parity support, just dedicated parity disks.
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<geist> odd. i used to be able to create a loopback device with losetup and it would punch discard through
<geist> but for some reason it doesn't work today
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