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<gog>
my wife upgraded to windows 11 on her new computer and i gotta say: it feels unfinished, it has weird quirks that i can't quite understand
<gog>
also i hate it
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<eryjus>
sometimes things just don't make sense until you figure them out
<rustyy>
or they are simply poorly designed and make no sense =)
<eryjus>
that too
<eryjus>
I blame the author completely
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<geist>
I upgraded one of my lesser used machines to windows 11, actually type only one that out of the box can be upgraded, because i had never turned off secure boot on it
<geist>
FWIW it’s not *terrible* and surprisingly seems to run better on it, since it’s an underpowered machine
<geist>
But… yeah
<Mutabah>
MS maintaining the tick-tock release pattern
<vdamewood>
gog: Sounds like every release of Windows.
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<vdamewood>
XP was crap, but XP SP2 was one of the best OS's ever.
<geist>
Also imo win2k was a solid release
<Mutabah>
Which was first, 2K or ME?
<vdamewood>
2k
<Mutabah>
Still holds then :)
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<vdamewood>
geist: I'm having a hard time finding something to complain about Windows 2000's initial release.
<vdamewood>
So, I'll give you that one.
<geist>
Sure but i thought it held up: win2k (good) -> XP (bad) -> XP SP2 (good)
<geist>
I always consider the win9x range to just be a different OS
<vdamewood>
Well, it is.
<vdamewood>
geist: And yeah, I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you were commenting on my 'the initial release has problems' and not Mutabah's tick-tock comment.
<vdamewood>
Well, I didn't exactly say it that way, but yeah.
<vdamewood>
Though NT 4 wasn't really all that bad, though my copy of NT4 SP1 is unusable for me, but once it's upgraded to SP6 it's fine.
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<radens>
What is the IRQ number for the SD card interrupt for the raspberry pi (versions < 4)?
<klange>
I should write a new malloc...
<vdamewood>
klange: Have you seen mine?
<klange>
Can't say I have, just know mine is feeling crusty and old.
<klange>
But it was written under certain restrictions that were acceptable when I opted to use it in my OS and which are starting to be problematic.
<vdamewood>
klange: You just described every feature of Windows.
<klange>
It was written as a uni course assignment, and it was required to only use sbrk, which, great, when I wrote an OS a year later that made it easy to port over.
<klange>
Except now I really would like to do some proper anonymous mmapping... and have processes actually release some of this memory they've allocated...
<klange>
Going to make the panel widgets all configurable, so who knows where one will end up, need to make sure the popups look nice wherever they are
<pounce>
> it was required to only use sbrk
<pounce>
ugh my uni made me write malloc only using their mmmap
<pounce>
would prefer to use both
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<clever>
radens: the vc4 line (pi0-pi3) has 2 SD controllers you can use
<clever>
radens: are you using the sdhci controller or the sdhost controller?
<radens>
ah what's the difference?
<clever>
the sdhci controller is following the official sdhci specs, and is SDIO capable
<radens>
I think sdhci. Whatever is referred to as mmc on the 2836 peripherals pdf
<clever>
the sdhost controller cant do sdio, and uses a non-standard interface, but the comments in the linux source says it has higher thruput
<radens>
sdio?
<clever>
SDIO is required to drive the wifi chip
<clever>
SDIO is back from the days when people shoved a webcam or a wifi expansion card into the SD slot of a PDA
<radens>
yikes
<clever>
and they still make SDIO wifi chipsets to this day
<bslsk05>
github.com: VideoCore IV Programmers Manual · hermanhermitage/videocoreiv Wiki · GitHub
<clever>
radens: this is the table i usually reference, but youll need to subtract 64 off any irq# you see in it
<clever>
56 is labeled as INTERRUPT_SDIO (INTERRUPT_SDCARDHOST)
<clever>
which is confusing as heck, lol
<clever>
35 is INTERRUPT_SDC
<clever>
the dts is probably a better reference, *digs*
<radens>
so I decompiled a device tree blob to device tree source which ships with alpine linux for the pi. Each interrupts section has an array of integers
<radens>
the first integer is probably the bank where bank 0 is the basic bank
<bslsk05>
github.com: linux/bcm283x.dtsi at rpi-5.10.y · raspberrypi/linux · GitHub
<clever>
and sdhci is bank 2 irq 30, which comes out to 62?
<radens>
thanks, that matches up with what I was looking at
<clever>
which the other table claims is INTERRUPT_ASDIO
<clever>
let me check a 3rd table...
<radens>
so if I'm banging bits into the EMMC controller which sd card thing am I using?
<clever>
compare your MMIO addr to the reg= of the 2 entries in the above dtsi
<clever>
radens: also, in an ideal world, you would be parsing the DTB at bootup, and doing what it says, but that does raise the complexity a good deal
<radens>
I have played around with that sort of thing before, and it's very nice and flexible, but I think I messed up my API for the device tree parser.
<clever>
ive mostly been on the other end of dtb, writing the dts files, and patching it on bootup with a custom bootloader
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<radens>
Thanks clever
<clever>
radens: what is your main interest with the rpi?
<geist>
clever is judging you, to determine if you are worthy
<clever>
lol
<radens>
clever: I have several interests. One is learning more about aarch64. Another is learning about what the hell is going on on that gpu
<clever>
radens: i have several gpu examples, that work without even turning on the arm core
<geist>
(annoyingly irccloud has arbitrarily assigned both of you the same color, and you have same length names)
<radens>
btw I have a ghidra plug in I'm working on which decompiles part of the videocore iv ISA
<radens>
clever: I'd love to see those
<clever>
radens: there is already a ghidra PR that can do that
<bslsk05>
github.com: Initial support of Broadcom VideoCore IV by paolovagnero · Pull Request #1147 · NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra · GitHub
<clever>
i just built the whole ghidra from that branch, and its been working amazingly
<clever>
the only thing it doesnt understand is the vector opcodes
<clever>
radens: there are ~3 main parts of the "gpu" on the rpi, the VPU (its basically just a cpu core), the 2d subsystem, and the 3d subsystem
<clever>
radens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFmCin3EJIs the 2d subsystem is basically a sprite only gpu, you define the dest xy, and the source image params, and it renders each sprite in the list
<bslsk05>
'Chaos, 13 sprites randomly bouncing around' by michael bishop (00:00:12)
<radens>
clever: which subsystem are the QPUs part of? 3d?
<clever>
yeah, the QPU's are part of the 3d subsystem
<clever>
the v3d core takes shaders+polygons+textures and turns it into a bitmap image in ram
<clever>
the 2d subsystem turns images in ram (bitmap and planar) into a stream of pixels with hsync+vsync data
<clever>
and the various output PHY's turn that pixel stream into various video signals
<bslsk05>
'rpi open firmware boot' by michael bishop (00:02:23)
<clever>
this is one of my most complex demo videos
<clever>
radens: the top block of text is the VPU debug logs, the bottom text block is just `/dev/fb0` from linux on the arm core, the spinning triangle is a shader on the QPU, and the bouncing raspberry is just a simple 2d animation (changing the xy coord)
<clever>
the 2 animations are tied to vsync and doing proper pageflips, the text consoles arent doing pageflips and can tear
<radens>
clever: do you know if anyone has looked into exploiting the vpu core? I hear it's running threadx?
<clever>
radens: ive mostly been working on running little-kernel on the VPU instead
<radens>
what's a pageflip?
<clever>
its far easier to get the firmware to co-operate when you control the source of the firmware
<clever>
a pageflip is when you change which image is being rendered at vsync, so you dont get tearing
<radens>
What's a vsync then?
<klange>
Classically, when the electron beam reached the bottom and had to be repositioned back to the top.
<clever>
vsync is a pulse generated by the video circuit when the "electron beam" is between the bottom and top of the screen
<radens>
Sorry I am not at all familiar with GPUs at all. I stumbled upon the docs for the QPUs by accident and started diving in bass ackwards
<clever>
yeah
<clever>
been there, write an opengl stack from scratch, without any clue how opengl was meant to work :P
<radens>
I was like, fuck, this is just a whole extra CPU with a bunch of goofy logic
<clever>
wrote*
<klange>
There is a way OpenGL is _meant_ to work?
<klange>
And here I thought Kronos were just throwing things at a wall...
<geist>
ah klange has reached enlightenment
<clever>
klange: more, that i wasnt extending mesa in a portable way, i was just implementing each missing function how i thought it was meant to work
<clever>
so i couldnt reuse any existing mesa logic at all
<clever>
i was also not reading any opengl docs, lol
<clever>
i just looked at an existing opengl client, guessed how the function worked, then made it do that
<radens>
clever: is any of your work open source, or just hanging out on the internet to be perused?
<bslsk05>
github.com: rpi-open-firmware/rpi2.dts at master · librerpi/rpi-open-firmware · GitHub
<clever>
so you just define the pixel format, addr, widht/height/stride, and linux barfs into it
<geist>
makes sense
<clever>
there is also provisions to link that simple-framebuffer to a KMS node elsewhere in the tree
<clever>
so when you modprobe the right driver, linux can transition from one to the other
<clever>
then you get a simple driver during boot, but can upgrade later
<radens>
I hear the new raspberry pi 4 has a new gpu which runs videocore 6 or something. Is there any research into that yet? Or did I misunderstand something?
<clever>
radens: from what ive heard, vc6 is unfinished
<clever>
they basically grafted the vc6-v3d core onto a slightly modified vc4 core
<clever>
with the 2d subsystem modified slightly to support 4k video
<radens>
Ah so the VPU is the same but then the QPUs may have changed?
<clever>
exactly
<clever>
fewer QPU's, running at a higher clock rate, with a different ISA, and an MMU slapped over it all
<clever>
on vc4, the QPU's memory view, was into that set of 4 1gig aliases, and the cache control bits in bit 30/31
<clever>
on bcm2711, the QPU's go thru a dedicated mmu, that maps the 4gig addr space into the 16gig addr space
<radens>
Do you mean an iommu or a separate mmu on the vpu/qpu side of the house?
<clever>
a dedicated mmu just for the 3d core
<radens>
gotcha. Is there an iommu on the arm at all?
<clever>
all other gpu peripherals are still in the VPU addr space, and limited to the lower 1gig of ram
<radens>
Or is it still playing second fiddle?
<clever>
there has always been an extra MMU for the arm core as well
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<clever>
ive not gotten the arm working on the 2711 yet, but i suspect that MMU is still present
<bslsk05>
github.com: rpi-open-firmware/arm_control.h at master · librerpi/rpi-open-firmware · GitHub
<clever>
depending on that config, you can make it such that arm-kernel MMIO works, but arm-userland MMIO fails
<clever>
that will leave people puzzled for months, because mmap on /dev/mem doesnt work :P
<clever>
(been there)
<clever>
3: i suspect the ARM_C0_FULLPERI flag changes what peripherals the arm can access, but havent investigated it yet
<radens>
fascinating
<radens>
I need to get some rest
<radens>
thanks for all of this interesting info!
<clever>
radens: i'm also hanging out in #raspberrypi-internals if you want to chat later
<radens>
clever: I'll be sure to swing by later! Thanks!
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<klange>
I am starting to work on an instruction parser for TrueType. I've got basic instruction parsing down. Need to implement FDEF/ENDF and IF/ELSE/EIF, which are interesting. Then I need to... implement the actual math of the opcodes.
<clever>
a story to maybe keep in mind, many many years ago, windows moved the font parsing/rendering into the kernel, to try and cheat at some benchmarks i think
<clever>
then when truetype came along, truetype support got added directly into the kernel
<GeDaMo>
I assume that ended badly :P
<clever>
then remote code execution exploits sprung up, giving an attacker kernel level access :P
<klange>
Yes, and they - and everyone else - screwed up because they aimed for speed over safety.
<clever>
now nobody uses the kernel font routines, and everything gets done in userland
<clever>
back when there was only bitmap fonts, there wasnt any safety concerns
<clever>
and nobody bothered to reconsider that, when adding a bloody turing complete font :P
<zid>
ergh truetype
<clever>
ASLR cant help you there
<klange>
When I was at Apple, we had... a similar snafu, except it was with Freetype in Safari on iOS.
<klange>
TrueType maybe turing complete, but it's really quite well restricted if you actually bother checking things.
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<klange>
You miss a bounds check on a vector table here... blindly trust a table header there... and oops Linux is running on your Xbox.
<clever>
bounds checks is also what lead to a chiptune exploit
<clever>
the chiptune files, where just 6502 asm, and the "player" just emulated the entire cpu and SID chip
<clever>
and the original asm expected a cartridge with rom bank switching, so the emulator has to support that
<clever>
and if you dont do bounds checking, you can index beyond the end of the rom image
<clever>
also, gnome(was that it?)'s file manager would auto-play any music file you select
<klange>
I just had a talk with someone about that. NES Sound Files. gstreamer plugin had a ^ bug, and then to add to that Nautilus was using file extensions as a white list of things to pass to thumbnail generation and though mp3 was a good thing to generate thumbnails for, which then led to calling gstreamer, which then oops.
<clever>
so just selecting the file, with no intent to run it, would get you exploited
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<clever>
yeah
<klange>
So you take your crafted NSF file, rename it to whatever.mp3, and now you open the directory it's in and... Calculator.
<clever>
lol
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<clever>
and just for the fun of it, i'm now attempting to run 400mhz ram at 600mhz...
<clever>
it initialized, then hung
<clever>
547mhz, works just fine
<klange>
Anyway, I will continue my TrueType adventures tomorrow. It'll take a lot of work to get all the instructions I need to hint DejaVu Sans Mono...
<zid>
my 667MHz RAM will run at 900MHz, it struggles at 1000MHz
<zid>
but I think it was just an 800MHz kit sold cheaper
<clever>
in my case, its a pi3 with 1gig of ram
<clever>
but behind the curtains, its a pair of 512mb lpddr2 dies, in a single epoxy package
<clever>
each sharing half the data bus
<clever>
so every access is getting striped across both chips
<zid>
400MHz ddr2? or actually like.. 200MHz?
<zid>
but doubled
<clever>
thats what i'm still fuzzy on
<zid>
real ddr2 is 200-266Mhz
<zid>
with a bus rate of 200-533
<clever>
ah
<zid>
DDR2-800 -> 200MHz
<clever>
(19.2 * 83) / 4 == 398.4
<zid>
(PC2-6400)
<clever>
(19.2 * 83) / 8 == 199.2
<clever>
zid: the reference crystal is 19.2mhz, and the dram clock divisor is 83, but i dont know the exact ratio between that, and the final bus rate
<zid>
Sounds like it's PC2-6400
<clever>
(under/over)clocking the ram does have a measurable impact on the latency to do a single uncached 32bit read
<bslsk05>
github.com: lk-overlay/sdram.c at master · librerpi/lk-overlay · GitHub
<clever>
zid: this is the bulk of the timing configuration parameters
<clever>
ive not tried messing with them yet, but i could
<clever>
the issue, is figuring out which field contains the cas....
<zid>
tRTP is precharge time..
<clever>
there is a ras-min field
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<zid>
tCL tRP are cas and ras usually
<zid>
and ddr 6400 timings are like.. 5-5-5-15
<clever>
does both the dram chip and the controller need to be aware of the same timings?
<clever>
i feel like they do, for the pipelining to work right
<zid>
trcd = ras to cas delay
<zid>
no tCPD for command rate :(
<clever>
or its burried in the magic numbers in the file
<zid>
or yea, just not exposed via that struct yet
<clever>
check the reset_with_timing function
<clever>
that encodes the struct fields into registers
<clever>
and down at 591-597, it adjusts the struct slightly, for different ram sizes
<clever>
zid: do you have any guess as to how the colbits/rowbits/banklow control things?
<zid>
nothing springs to mind
<clever>
are things like the "open row" command using a row#, and need to be aware of how many bytes are in a row?
<zid>
rows are always 64 afaik
<clever>
but when you gang a pair of 512mbyte chips in parallel on a single data bus, giving an "open row 42" command, will then wind up giving you a 128 byte row in the combined buffer
<clever>
and the only difference in this code, between 512mb and 1gig(really just 2 512mb's) is the col/row/bank bits
<zid>
sounds like you already know what they do then
<clever>
kinda, but not how
<clever>
the 128mb/256mb chips use the identical values
<clever>
and 512mb has its own unique set, but is still a single-die
<clever>
so its not really clear what the exact number means
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<heat>
warm greetings
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<sortie>
drop it like it's heat
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<heat>
I had my interview today, it was fun. Maybe not the best of performances but I got good enough solutions (IMO) to the problems and I was always communicative
<sortie>
:D
<heat>
hopefully I get called back for a second interview but even if I don't go through, that's alright, it was my first time and I'll allow myself to fail
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<heat>
it was definitely an experience I'll tell you that lol
<sortie>
Yay
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<heat>
plenty of years ahead of me to work on all the big $LC_CORPs out there ;)
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<Bitweasil>
Interviewing is a lot more fun when you don't care about the result.
<Bitweasil>
If you're stressed about getting the job, most people interview worse.
<heat>
yeah
<heat>
i was definitely nervous since it was my first time doing a coding interview and it's FREAKING FACEBOOK
<Bitweasil>
Oh.
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<Bitweasil>
Were you frothing at the mouth excited about how AMAZING!!!!!! Facebook is?
<j`ey>
um
<j`ey>
you mean Meta, rite
<heat>
yes
<Bitweasil>
I interviewed with them some years back, the feedback was that I was technically competent, but not excited enough about Facebook's mission.
<Bitweasil>
Which was to say, when they asked why I was interviewing, I said that the work sounded interesting, and that I don't turn down interviews.
<heat>
I still find it odd how they so quickly switched everything from saying facebook to saying meta
<Bitweasil>
vs "I'm looking to CHANGE THE WORLD by Connecting People on Facebook!" or whatever they wanted.
<heat>
except the recruiting page :v
<Bitweasil>
Dunno, I don't use the thing anymore.
<Bitweasil>
My account has been disabled for... oh, probably a year and a half?
<heat>
oh no that's still facebook
<heat>
in my case (although this is an internship so I'm not sure if it's different) I just had a plain coding interview with a Q&a with the engineer at the end
<Bitweasil>
*nods*
<heat>
if I go through there should be a second round where I'll get questioned on all things networking
<heat>
dunno if there's any "hey who are you and what do you like, why do you want to join us" time
<Bitweasil>
Back when I interviewed, that was part of every interview.
<Bitweasil>
And they properly discovered that I wasn't terribly excited about Facebook.
<Bitweasil>
Would have done it for the right offer.
<Bitweasil>
My current position is less interesting than what I was doing before, but they made it worth my while.
<heat>
yeah I get what you mean
<Bitweasil>
Bitweasil: Tosses out large number thinking that we'll negotiate down. Them: "Ok." Bitweasil: "Aw, poop."
<heat>
if I were interviewing I'd much prefer someone that's being honest than a "OMG OMG OMG I LOVE $CORP AND I ALWAYS USE ALL THEIR PRODUCTS AND I HAVE A $CORP_PHONE AND A $CORP_PC AND I SLEEP WITH A $CORP ONESIE"
<zid>
"I'm interviewing here because your products are so shit even I could make them better"
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<Bitweasil>
In AArch64, valid registers are X0-X30, and SP... but X31 is used to encode the zero register. Is SP effectively X31 in some instructions, vs it being used as zero in others? Or should I just keep chewing through until I find the actual opcodes? :)
<zid>
I thought sp was x29
<Bitweasil>
On AArch64? Hm.
<zid>
oh probably not
<Bitweasil>
It implied SP was a separate thing.
<zid>
I just realized I remembered mips not arm
<j`ey>
Bitweasil: yes it depends on the instruction
<Bitweasil>
Ok, that's what I thought, just trying to make sure I've got my head wrapped around it properly with what I've read so far.
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<sortie>
I should set up a secondary ircd server so I can say my OS doesn't netsplit and actually get away with such claims
<zid>
My OS doesn't crash
<zid>
Nobody would run it and it barely does anything
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<immibis>
just redefine the word "crash"
<immibis>
anything short of a triple fault is not a crash, just an exception
<heat>
except a panic
<heat>
or a hang
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<heat>
or a deadly signal
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<kazinsal>
a fucky-wucky
<gog>
oopsie whoopsie
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<Bitweasil>
"Oh dear, that's a really big whoopsie there!"
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<kazinsal>
raise_signal(SIGBIGSTINKY)
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<zid>
black friday is a scam, nobody will give me a £240 monitor for the £100 amazon credit I have
<Bitweasil>
SIGOHDEAR
<Bitweasil>
Of course, there's the really bad one.
<Bitweasil>
SIGBLESSYOURHEART
* Bitweasil
wanders out.
<kazinsal>
SIGARENTYOUJUSTTOUCHEDBYANANGEL
<Bitweasil>
zid, it's Monday. :p
<Bitweasil>
Also tech sucks.
<Bitweasil>
kazinsal, lol. Zing.
* Bitweasil
wanders off.
<zid>
yea but amazon doesn't know that
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<zid>
You're just going to have to hire me to crash your OSs or something