phoebos changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.bvnf.space | post logs or else | song of the day https://yewtu.be/watch?v=S81bNIK4MaE
so has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
so has joined #kisslinux
<kris_> a
<riteo> a
<kris_> yes
<riteo> uh right
<riteo> so uh, kris_
<kris_> hi
<riteo> I guess you were kinda right regarding vlans
<riteo> I got told at school that they're not a security feature, and they're not strictly speaking, but they kinda help like a lot
<riteo> also like new vlan-aware thingies are a lot more sturdy compared to old ones so probably that's also like outdated or something
<riteo> so yea, I owe you an apology ig
<kris_> no need for an apology
<kris_> im curious what they told you
<riteo> yea that it's simply not a security feature and that you should use firewalls instead
<riteo> and I actually found a wikipedia reference from the 90s that has "VLANS ARE NOT A SECURITY FEATURE" prominently displayed on top of the page
<kris_> id say they are a security feature
<kris_> it just depends on your handling
<riteo> maybe in the past they were less sturdy
<kris_> the literal purpose is to have things split into multiple LANs with different subnets
<riteo> yea that makes sense
<kris_> generally you don't have cross vlan routing though
<kris_> like i have two vlans right now and they can't communicate as dictated by the firewall
<kris_> there are a lot of moving parts here though, your switch has to tag traffic appropriately
<kris_> and the router decides what can interact between vlans
<riteo> i see
<riteo> also fun fact, my very expensive ISP router apparently can't do vlan
<riteo> and I can't get fresh openwrt on it because fcking broadcom
<riteo> that's how I got into the rabbit hole
<riteo> I mean we have a crapton of IoT stuff into our net so it's not like it's safe, but I'm not sure how to go forwards with the thin client public-facing server plan
<kris_> yeah most of them can't handle vlans
<kris_> if that's what you want, buy a generic x86 box and put a network card in it and route with that
<kris_> imo
<kris_> mine is an HP T740 thin client, has low profile pcie
<kris_> what you should be doing is splitting as much stuff off into vlans as possible and not having any inter-vlan traffic
<kris_> *once you're able to
<kris_> you also need a switch that will tag your traffic appropriately, most should be fine
<kris_> and if using wifi, an AP that is vlan aware
<kris_> god dammit
<kris_> i don't know what possessed me to do a glibc install of void on my server but i'm about to nuke it again to fix that oversight lmao
<kris_> not sure i even noticed which iso i put on my flash drive
<midfavila> >broadcomlet
<midfavila> tsk tsk tsk
<kris_> hi mid
<midfavila> :3c
<midfavila> :3ccccccccccccccccccc
<sewn> :<
<kris_> gm sewn
<kris_> how is everyone
<sewn> gm kris
<sewn> it is the weekend
<kris_> it do be
<kris_> im getting my local server moved over to musl
<sewn> yaya
<kris_> that means my laptop is the last thing i have on glibc
<kris_> but that's staying there
<sewn> are u gonna move it to kiss
<sewn> or void musl
<kris_> void musl
<sewn> what are your thought on alpine
<kris_> >:(
<sewn> :3
kata has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in]
kata has joined #kisslinux
kata has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in]
kata has joined #kisslinux
<kris_> i almost just nuked my luks headers
<kris_> that would have sucked because i would have had to consult the cold backups
<sewn> kriiissss
<kris_> hi sewn
<sewn> what are your thought on alpine
* kris_ doesn't like alpine
* kris_ would like alpine if their packaging wasnt awful
<sewn> whats wrong with alpines packaging and them
<kris_> too little testing mostly
<kris_> i also just can't stand openrc
<kris_> but had i updated my one alpine install from 3.20 to 3.21 it would have stopped booting
<sewn> whats wrong openrc
<sewn> also grub moment probbaly
<kris_> and it took them like a few months to resolve that issue
<kris_> no lol i boot UKIs
<kris_> it's 2025 bootloaders are irrelevant
<kris_> openrc isn't runit and that's the issue i have with it
<kris_> runit is the only init system i *do* like and why swap that on alpine when i can just use void and also get well tested packages
<sewn> i see
<sewn> so whats wrong with openrc
<kris_> i'm vaguely irritated by it because it isn't even a real init system
<kris_> but imo an init system should not do more than just execute shell scripts
<kris_> basic supervision at most
<sewn> i see
<kris_> openrc has a whole bunch of excess stuff that is probably useful to people who are doing something like... idk?
<sewn> and their packaging is has "too little testing"?
<kris_> scaling?
<sewn> "is has" bruh im stupi
<sewn> for a distro as big as alpine i would assume that you simply have bad experience
<kris_> yeah things on alpine just have a habit of breaking on release
<sewn> many servers are on the line for that
<kris_> not really, people typically run alpine in containers and nowhere else
<kris_> as a base to ship an application on top of
<kris_> so basically what exactly happened from 3.20 to 3.21 was a rebuild of gummiboot-efistub, which is just outright broken
<kris_> which was the only efistub alpine had packaged at the time- and what people were rolling into their UKIs
<kris_> this took at minimum like 3 weeks for anyone to bother fixing
<kris_> so my solution at the time was to pull the old efistub package from 3.20
<kris_> im trying to see if i can find you the gitlab issue related to this
<kris_> here
<kris_> took a month for "how can i reproduce this in qemu?" from the literal maintainer of this package
<sewn> mm
<sewn> okay
<sewn> now what are your thought on chimera
<kris_> good but not for me
<sewn> it doesnt have shit init system and its packages are tested
<sewn> how come
<kris_> because dinit is bloat :p
<sewn> i used to think that
<sewn> "ohmg my god c++ so bloat!!!"
<kris_> and i don't like the concept of patching in mimalloc
<kris_> i know you can revert that
<kris_> it has nothing to do with the fact that it's written in C++, it has to do with the fact that there's all this garbage external logic
<sewn> dinit is quite basically one of the only init systems thats actually convenient
<kris_> with services
<sewn> its not as bare as runit not as bad as openrc not as giant as systemd
<kris_> it'd be the same as me using systemd, using it to launch shell scripts to handle my actual service logic
<kris_> because that's how i want to use my system
<sewn> what more service logic do you need
<kris_> no the problem i have with that is that there is service logic
<sewn> whats wrong with service logic
<kris_> i want to handle this in the shell scripts
<kris_> external logic is kind of obfuscated and just gets in the way
<kris_> and will never be as powerful
<sewn> what about the complex but muh simple s6
<kris_> haven't tried it for more than 10 minutes
<sewn> it is a pain in the ass
<kris_> i tried it on artix and fucking hate artix
<kris_> i already dont like arch and artix is infinitely worse
<sewn> artix has s6 but is not exactly the same
<sewn> every distro does s6 differently similar to doing runit differently
<kris_> it seems like to actually try out s6 id have to implement it somewhere myself
<sewn> because s6 to actually be useful you need to do *everything* youreslf
<kris_> kiss' default init setup doesn't bother me
<kris_> infact it's exactly what id expect
<sewn> no logging and dependency management is what i dont like about runit
<kris_> bootstrapping a service manager is questionable to me but i get it
<kris_> sewn there is logging
<sewn> that is outside of the service management
<kris_> it's just not baked in, on void we use socklog which is by the same author and intended to be used with runit
<kris_> so you just add a funny little exec 2>&1 to your services and there you go
<sewn> bwah
<kris_> and there isn't implicit dependency management, no
<kris_> just sv check xyz || exit 1 in your services
<sewn> i know about that
<sewn> its just not as nice idk abt u
<sewn> but it still works
<sewn> what else do you not like about dinit
<kris_> just that
<kris_> i could use dinit, its not a big deal
<kris_> it's just also not ideal
<sewn> how is dinit not ideal
<kris_> ..
<kris_> it's not ideal *for me*, sorry
<kris_> runit is already exactly what i want so id like to keep it
<sewn> ok thats understandable
<sewn> i might return back to using kiss one day
<kris_> what i can tell you is when i was massively scaling up containers and servers a bit ago with nixos as a base
<kris_> i ended up just running runit as a user and using that to orchestrate containers
<sewn> damn
<sewn> htas crazy
<kris_> *systemd* is crazy, yeah
<sewn> no you using runit as a user
<kris_> it's sane behavior
<sewn> to you lol
<kris_> infact freebsd people do the same thing to orchestrate and supervise bhyve VMs
<sewn> oh interesting
<sewn> also
<sewn> i dislike void for its maintainers
<kris_> oh?
<sewn> ok well not on a personal level
<sewn> void is well designed i just dont like the process of package submission and waiting 6 months
<sewn> but more or less the same thing occurs on chimera
<sewn> chimera was made by a void maintainer after all
<sewn> as an attempt to make void-packages less shit
<kris_> lol yeah i waited a long time for a 3 line PR to be accepted for cmusfm
<sewn> but ended up being its own distro
<sewn> but i think turnstile is really really good
<kris_> usually i just go into their irc and nudge
<kris_> keep in mind it's a shit ton of packages and they have to test it themselves
<sewn> i dont want to nudge because id look annoying lmao but at the same time, cmon
<kris_> it just depends on which maintainer responds to your nudging
<kris_> whether or not they'll be annoyed
<sewn> 3 years ago
<kris_> but yeah, the above comments you just made are exactly why i'm hosting my own xbps repo now
<sewn> this is funny lol
<kris_> "beep boop bump" lol
<sewn> it got approved but became stale because ?????????????????????????????????
<kris_> github just does that automatically
<sewn> yeah but the shit was approved its stupid
<kris_> ik
<kris_> i feel your pain
<sewn> i still have it on chimera
<kris_> i'm running my own build of musl right now because void is still on 1.1.24 lol
<sewn> honestly i think i might move to void
<sewn> but
<sewn> the updates
<sewn> oh man the updates
<sewn> its so fucking slow
<kris_> i think it just depends on how you look at it
<kris_> "when will XYZ be updated" is a bad question in the context of void
<kris_> people work on stuff when they feel like it and that's kinda just the end of it
<kris_> loosely directed anarchy
<sewn> and i dont like that
<kris_> but honestly what put me off of chimera was going into their irc to ask a few questions
<kris_> i didnt like the responses i got so i bailed immediately
<sewn> ooh hold on when was that
<kris_> idk like a year ago probably
<kris_> nekopsykose really pissed me off so i left
<sewn> oh
<sewn> oh yeah
<sewn> psykose used to be a prolific alpine developer
<sewn> or maintainer
<kris_> yeah, it tracks
<kris_> at least in my mind
<sewn> but then took a break went to chimera and now another break
<sewn> and i think the amount of stress got to her or something
<sewn> shes mean
<sewn> anyway are you
<sewn> kris_ on oftc
<kris_> no
<kris_> i dont hafe oftc
<sewn> then...??
<sewn> chimera was on oftc
<sewn> what
<kris_> i know, i joined just for that one question and left
<kris_> everything else is on libera
<sewn> yeah i know
<sewn> where
<sewn> what was your username
<kris_> its been a year sewn i have no idea
<sewn> cmon try to remember
<kris_> potentially kris
<sewn> 'kris' 0 results
<kris_> potentially kris_
<kris_> potentially krum
<sewn> wait krum sounds familiar
<sewn> but no results
<kris_> oh man i sure hope krum doesnt sound familiar
<sewn> i swear ive heard it somewhere
<kris_> i mean you might have seen that when we played cs2
<kris_> thats my name on steam
<sewn> o maybe
<sewn> were you kanyck?
<kris_> no
<sewn> then thats all i got
<sewn> try to rememmebmembembembemrbmmrbem
<sewn> were you a guest
<kris_> the question i asked was what is their policy on non-free software in the repos
<kris_> i might have been lmao idk
<sewn> no results for that, nonfree, and propietary
<kris_> well theres no way for me to answer that question so
<kris_> sewn you would be a roblox player
<kris_> :p
<sewn> hm?
<kris_> oh nothing i just looked at your github and saw vinegar pinned
<sewn> i mean yeah i maintain vinegar
<kris_> i miss the vinegar days
<sewn> we have sober now
<kris_> yeah i know, i just don't want to use it
<sewn> propietary?
<kris_> actually while you're here i do have a question about that
<kris_> is there a reason it's not on flathub
<sewn> its on flathub now
<kris_> oh
<kris_> that changes things
<sewn> lmao
<kris_> the proprietary thing does bother me a little bit yeah but roblox is also proprietary so like whatever
<sewn> we have our reasons to make it propietary
<kris_> nah i get that
<kris_> like 100% it's fine
<sewn> lol
<kris_> roblox is a pita to deal with
<sewn> i didnt expect you to be a roblox player tbh
<kris_> oh im an OG
<sewn> since?
<kris_> itdobehappen is my username
<sewn> nice avatar lmao
<kris_> my oldest account that i still have access to is from 2010 i think
<kris_> christopher221
<sewn> 2025 join date
<kris_> and yes i spelled my own name incorrectly
<kris_> what??
<sewn> oh wait nvm
<sewn> i looked at the wrong person
<sewn> ok now your avatar is boring
<sewn> its censored for some reason
<sewn> 2011 damn
<kris_> i had a big ass vending machine on my body with like doritos logos on it and stuff
<kris_> so i think that got like copyright striked
<sewn> i think thats gone yea
<kris_> since sober is on flathub now i might get back into it
<kris_> ive been missing playing the conquerors
<sewn> well lmk
<sewn> i might join u
<kris_> i gotta get back on phantom forces and flex my vet tag
<sewn> i dont ever play roblox (obviously}
<sewn> oh
<sewn> phantom forces is dying
<kris_> not surprising, its ancient
<sewn> no
<sewn> like
<sewn> not dying as in less people playing cuz old
<sewn> less people cuz the developers dont care about the players
<sewn> and pedophiles within the servers
<kris_> yeah i know they dont care
<sewn> they changed the movement mechanics
<kris_> i used to hang out with lito a bit back in like 2012
<kris_> when call of robloxia was the thing
<sewn> god damn
<kris_> he was such an asshole back then
<sewn> lmao
<kris_> i wouldnt be surprised if nothing has changed
<sewn> im suprised
<sewn> well ill send you a req in the meantime
<kris_> you're making me feel old
<kris_> and i'm only 23
<sewn> because you are
<sewn> anyhoo
<kris_> nuh uh
<sewn> we will play games unite some time then
<sewn> its like a cs clone
<kris_> yeah ill check it out
<sewn> theres tons of good games on roblox but i just stopped caring
<kris_> but on the note of void, the real reason i'm so hard stuck here is because eveyr time i try something else i get burnt immediately
<kris_> ive been running void for like 3.5 years and have nothing but good things to say
<sewn> o yea
<sewn> whats your username
<kris_> so its kind of just my debian now
<sewn> on
<sewn> irc
<sewn> cmon i gotta find out
<kris_> dude i can't even remember this morning
<kris_> let alone an irc nick i randomly chose from a year ago
<sewn> any keywordss
<kris_> no
<kris_> i meant that literally, i can't remember this morning
<sewn> gah
<kris_> so a year ago is not going to happen
<sewn> alright then
<sewn> i might switch to void for the fun of it
<kris_> fried my brain with way too much drug use
<kris_> my memory went with it
<sewn> obviously ill be using turnstile cuz its that good
<kris_> i still havent tried turnstile
<kris_> im using elogind
<sewn> blegh
<kris_> i wonder about sobers performance
<sewn> better than windowsw
<kris_> vinegar was already on par with windows for me
<kris_> as far as i could tell anyway
<kris_> with vulkan
<sewn> its my honor
<kris_> is studio included with sober or is that still via vinegar
<sewn> vinegar is now studio only obviously
<sewn> sober is player only
<kris_> ahokay
<sewn> both use copmletely different technologies
<sewn> and codebases that cant be interchangable
<kris_> time to waste way too much time modeling things in roblox studio
<kris_> ive tried to make a game like 5 times and always end up getting into an argument with the other devs
<sewn> studio is kinda shit on wine
<kris_> oh it absolutely fucking is
<sewn> lmfao
<kris_> studio kept me on windows for a long time
<kris_> lol
<sewn> you werent even a actaul game developer what needed you to use windows
<kris_> mouse bugs on wayland
<kris_> at the time
<sewn> oh pfft
<kris_> and fwiw we got very close to finishing a runescape clone for roblox
<kris_> until we got into an argument on cs:go and he blocked me
<kris_> tis a shame
<sewn> shame indeed
<kris_> ive always only done modeling, 3d modeling is kinda one of my non-linux hobbies
<sewn> i used to do that when i was young
<kris_> it seems like kids on roblox these days only want low poly trash though
<kris_> with bright colors
<sewn> there are still gems
<kris_> wtf is phantom resistance
<kris_> is this a zombies pf
<sewn> yep
<sewn> its not worth it
<sewn> dont bother with stylis lol
<kris_> aaaa tinyramfs is so refreshing
<kris_> compared to dracut, i mean
<sewn> why bother though
<sewn> just make custom kernel
<kris_> abnormal encryption setups is why i bother
<sewn> wha?
<kris_> luks headers that may or may not exist
<kris_> and generally i ssh into my initramfs so i can decrypt my server remotely
<kris_> and usbguard for that decryption
<sewn> what the
<sewn> huh?????
<kris_> :p
<sewn> explain
<kris_> explain what lol
<sewn> that whole thing
<kris_> without luks headers, luks encrypted partitions cannot be decrypted by any known technology
<kris_> and it can't even be proven that data exists on that disk at all
<kris_> dropbear in the initramfs so you can decrypt server boot drives without having to get out a monitor and keyboard for it
<kris_> usbguard so devices you haven't explicitly allowed cannot function
<kris_> useful for things like those little in-line keyloggers
<kris_> i'm still looking for sensible ways to tie my luks keys to my motherboard
<kris_> so given like a clone of the disk or something, it can't be unlocked
<kris_> unless it's paired with its motherboard
<kris_> i need to write some hooks for tinyramfs sooner than later though to get all of this working, it's fine with dracut but i cannot stand dracut
<sewn> mew
<kris_> at some point i should set up an xbps mirror
fultilt has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<kris_> crazy thing, ovh will no longer sell americans vps' that are in europe or canada seemingly
<kris_> which is just such a shame
ilt_m has joined #kisslinux
ilt_m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ilt_m has joined #kisslinux
ilt_m has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<sewn> kris_: oh don't buy from the big guys for a vps
<sewn> you can scour for really good vps deals lol
<sewn> if you need I can give a resource I used to get a vps
<ilt> kris_: why not put your keys into the TPM? unless you are afraid of NSA backdoors, tpm can give you integrity checks for free
<ilt> also it's worth looking into dm-integrity. however it's not intended to protect against malicious actor, its goal is to make disk failures easier to detect
raph_ael has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
raph_ael has joined #kisslinux
farkuhar has joined #kisslinux
fultilt has joined #kisslinux
zlg has joined #kisslinux
tylerdq has joined #kisslinux
<kris_> ilt i do use dm-integrity with my lvm raid array on my server
<kris_> and on the note of the TPM- ive been thinking about that, but i don't want automatic unlocking
<kris_> so what i'd probably have to do is stage it, have the tpm unlock /boot and then the initramfs there handle root
<kris_> sewn at the moment i'm with hetzner
<kris_> which has been less than ideal but it's better than people like vultr