ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
an3223 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
Gremlin8483 has joined #kisslinux
<Gremlin8483> hi im trying to see if kisslinux meets my requirements, is it expected to be able to maintain our own initial install tarballs and package repos from here on out? i know there are community repos and some forks but probably better to be self sufficient, thanks in advance
<midfavila> Gremlin8483: if you want to experiment with the base set of packages, it might be better to be self-sufficient, yes
<Gremlin8483> thanks for the reply, from what i read its relatively trivial to make a tarball using the package manager to build the pkgs; i have another question, i mostly use POSIX shell as my main scripting language, i heard that should be enough here? no wierd languages or build syntaxes other than posix and c?
<midfavila> correct
<midfavila> most of us use POSIX bourne and C here
<Gremlin8483> that alone is a huge plus for me
<midfavila> it's not unheard of for people here to work with other languages though
<midfavila> but it's not super common
<midfavila> usually python and lua, but I'll often talk about scheme
<Gremlin8483> i like using other languages, but when it comes to adding them into oses, the complexity is too much
<midfavila> forth as well
<Gremlin8483> plus every distro has their own special language
<midfavila> and yes, you aren't wrong
<midfavila> i use bourne and C begrudgingly, for systems programming
<Gremlin8483> but i can get away with just posix and c, no need to touch the rest
<midfavila> if there's a specialized task that a more expressive language is better at solving, i'll use it then, but...
<midfavila> meh
<Gremlin8483> thank goodness
<Gremlin8483> are we still talking about the distro or programming in general
<midfavila> programming in general
<Gremlin8483> cuz for programming in general anything goes
<Gremlin8483> ah gotcha
<midfavila> kiss isn't really a distro per se
<midfavila> it's just a package manager
<Gremlin8483> fine with me
<midfavila> like, me for example, i haven't tracked community or official in years
<Gremlin8483> if there is a philosophy attached to it (simple, posix, c), then that to me is a distro in spirit
<midfavila> sometimes i'll copy packages but it's not common
<midfavila> and i suppose that that's fair
<midfavila> anyway yeah, nobody here will begrudge you for using C or POSIX shell
<Gremlin8483> i hopped ALL the distros so far, and i think the recurring theme is, this distro lets you do this, this distro doesnt allow those packages, or those build flags
<Gremlin8483> trying to get away from that
* midfavila nods
<midfavila> KISS is basically LFS, so if you can figure it out you can do it. no need to fight against preexisting crap because... there really isn't any
<Gremlin8483> i watched a tutorial on lfs, itwasnt clear to me how dependency management worked there, i read it was a pain
<midfavila> it uh, didn't work, because there's no package manager
<Gremlin8483> but i am decent with posix, so maybe this is the distro for me
<midfavila> you hand-solve dependency chains and then... yeah
<midfavila> and hey, only way to know is to try
<midfavila> unpack a tarball and chroot into it and fiddle for a bit
<Gremlin8483> installing on a laptop as we speak
<Gremlin8483> using the gentoo livecd
<midfavila> >genpoo
* midfavila retches
<Gremlin8483> i did some gentoo yesterday but it wasnt for me
<Gremlin8483> i thought it was a flexible independent distro at first, but all the dependencies python perl and portage
<Gremlin8483> confusing as hell
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> if you want the ultimate in customization, use KISS
<Gremlin8483> plus it puts you on a set linear path of repos, with profiles and system sets
<midfavila> but expect to spend a not insignificant amount of time digging yourself out of any holes you fall into while tinkering
<Gremlin8483> just another word for you must go this route or else
<Gremlin8483> thats the price of freedom
<Gremlin8483> i want freedom but i dont want to reinvent the wheel
<Gremlin8483> the posix part is what decides it for me, its how i would do it if i wanted to make a modular simple os
<midfavila> oh boy is it ever the price of freedom
<midfavila> i've spent weeks fucking around with CDE
<midfavila> trying to get it to run on KISS
<midfavila> and it's really not cooperating
<Gremlin8483> id rather waste time on something rather than give up control
<Gremlin8483> first you give up a little
<Gremlin8483> then more, and more
<midfavila> well, welcome to the club, then
<Gremlin8483> cool beans, i hope this is the one, but i said that a lot, from debian to alpine to bsds to here
<Gremlin8483> but i will say you can never appreciate what you have here without experiencing all the others, you would instead be asking, why this hassle, and doubt yourself
<midfavila> you aren't wrong
<Gremlin8483> what kind of problem did you have with cde, btw?
<midfavila> oh, it's just not linking properly during build
<Gremlin8483> musl issue?
<midfavila> no, i think it's something to do with their build system
<midfavila> it's just not issuing the right linker commands for some reason
<Gremlin8483> if only c build systems adopted kiss
<Gremlin8483> there would be no need for heaven, we'd already be there
<midfavila> it's a terrible night to have to debug this shit
<Gremlin8483> damn i wish i had sound on this machine
<Gremlin8483> what is this, debugging music?
<midfavila> no it's a cover of bloody tears from simon's quest
<Gremlin8483> as it is pulseaudio fubared my sound, while strangley microphone still works
<midfavila> well, i suppose it's debugging music in the sense that i'm listening to it while figuring this out
<Gremlin8483> i watched a speedrun of that recently it hink
<Gremlin8483> is that the one wher eyou have multiple characters and divergine paths
<midfavila> if it's the open world one tha- no
<midfavila> that sounds like 3 or 4
<midfavila> simon's quest is the second
<midfavila> it's the open world one that everyone says is shit
<Gremlin8483> they are all decent in my mind, did you ever play them all?
<midfavila> i played the first and second when i was really young but i haven't gone back to games in a while
<midfavila> short of some open source stuff
<Gremlin8483> yea same linux is my 'games' now
<midfavila> i'm hoping that after finishing the next tarball of my KISS fork i'll be able to set up an emulator and stuff
<Gremlin8483> i played symphony of night
<Gremlin8483> better start archiving roms and stuff
<midfavila> that's one of the GBA ones right?
<Gremlin8483> i think the internet will become more restrictive in the future
<Gremlin8483> playstation
<midfavila> aah
<Gremlin8483> its the highest rated one
<drez> >genpoo | nice
<drez> isn't simon's quest a castlevania game
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> the second
<midfavila> and, imo, one of the most underrated games of all time
<drez> i wanna play it at some point
<midfavila> highly recommended, but you'll need a walkthrough
<drez> the silence of daylight is a cool track
<drez> i remember watching this MAD
<drez> hm
<drez> KISS emulators on KISS linux...
<drez> I know one
<midfavila> do you know of a minimal DS emulator?
<midfavila> i want to replay Explorers of Sky
<drez> lets see
<drez> desmume... melonds... not sure
<midfavila> desmume doesn't build for me unfortunately
<drez> no$gba is probably quite minimal , but its proprietary
<drez> hm maybe try an older release
<drez> desmume doesn't get much activity anyways
<drez> >DeSmuME 0.9.10 released! November 28th, 2013
<drez> >DeSmuME 0.9.11 released! April 15th, 2015
<drez> ?DeSmuME 0.9.13 released! May 23rd, 2022
<drez> fail
<drez> quoting fail
<Gremlin8483> pretty much config for everything pacakge related is stored in shell .profile? simple and genius
<Gremlin8483> what about retroarch? they are kinda bloated tho
<midfavila> yeah, it's an option, just not my first choice
<Gremlin8483> being new to packaging, is there any advantage/skill involved in having "official packages" in terms of security? or its just a matter of timely applying patches that anyone can do?
<Gremlin8483> i meant offical packages as in distro-maintainers for like distros with big repos, is the security work they do specialized?
<midfavila> for most? i would say probably not
<midfavila> red hat probably does internal R&D for security
<midfavila> openwall most definitely does a lot of that sort of stuff
<midfavila> debian might
<midfavila> but honestly? just steal their patches
<midfavila> sorry, borry
<midfavila> borrow even
<midfavila> fuck
<Gremlin8483> haha that makes a lot of sense
<Gremlin8483> "appropriate"
<midfavila> exactly
<drez> sorry borry
<Gremlin8483> i was thinking gen[tp]oo, since they have a hardened package branch
<drez> tp=toilet paper
<midfavila> that might just be a different set of cflags
<Gremlin8483> shouldnt the upstream source be resposnible for most security patches?
<midfavila> -pipe -w -O2 -fno-expensive-optimizations -fno-expensive-optimizations -D_GLIBCXX_ASSERTIONS -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -fno-plt -fisolate-erroneous-paths-attribute -fstack-protector-strong --param ssp-buffer-size=4 -fstack-clash-protection
<midfavila> use these or a subset thereof and you'll be fine
<midfavila> and yes, that would be ideal
<Gremlin8483> or they might not be timely enough
<midfavila> but sometimes upstream is stupi- yeah
<Gremlin8483> ah now it all starts making sense
<Gremlin8483> why things the way they are
<Gremlin8483> you simply dont learn a lot of this stuff using debian day to day
<Gremlin8483> meanwhile, my laptop is now an expensive hotplate for the next few hours presumably
<midfavila> at some point i really need to start doing binaries for people
<midfavila> open question, do any of you know who runs the kiss community server? i don't mind setting my workstation to run builds of all the community binaries once or twice a month
<Gremlin8483> charge a compilation cpu time and service tax (jk)
<drez> >i don't mind setting my workstation to run builds of all the community binaries once or twice a month
<drez> wut
<drez> but werent you going to sell it
<midfavila> i'm still trying to find someone who isn't going to rip me off
<midfavila> one guy messaged me a while back offering 1500
<drez> rip you off like pay too little?
<midfavila> yes
<drez> you were asking like 3k for it right?
<midfavila> at least 2500
<midfavila> it's worth more
<drez> yah 2.5k is the bare minimum i agree
<Gremlin8483> thats quite a huge lowball
<drez> i mean its a great workstation
<drez> but its not like balls to the wall expensive
<Gremlin8483> block that user immediately
<midfavila> indeed, Gremlin8483, especially considering the motherboard alone is selling for 1100 to 1400CAD on its own
<midfavila> intel s2600cw2r
<drez> oh ok i didnt know that. lol
<Gremlin8483> if someone is asking a certain amount and you lowball them almost 50%, that is a red flag
<midfavila> it's basic economics
<midfavila> or, well, business
<drez> then its worth 3.5k at the very least, or youre getting your balls broken
<midfavila> sellers should always highball, buyers lowball
<midfavila> anyone who takes a price at face value without negotiating is a sucker
<Gremlin8483> lowball based on the real value, 50% discount is too much
<midfavila> his whole thing was "well ya know it *is* a haswell..."
<midfavila> and it's like... yeah so what? it's a 48 thread workstation
<drez> hes right though
<drez> yeah but that single core performance sucks pelotas
<midfavila> drez, if the main value of the machine was single-core CPU performance, i would agree
<midfavila> but it's not
<drez> i see
<midfavila> the CPUs in this thing are maybe 60$ tops, together
<midfavila> because xeons are dirt cheap
<drez> my workstation is very similar to yours
<drez> except opterons instead of xeons
<midfavila> it's the motherboard, chassis, and storage that contribute most to the value of my setup
<midfavila> i was considering an opteron machine originally
<drez> i have a kgpe
<midfavila> for that sweet, sweet libreboot
<Gremlin8483> whats are the storage and motherboard features? i havent built any machines in a long while
<drez> pretty happy about it
<drez> but there is one thing
<drez> it uses way too much power
<drez> wayyyyy too much
<drez> made by worse by the fact i have a rx 480 installed on it
<midfavila> of my machine? i've got 6tb of HGST hard disk space, ~400gb of SLC samsung solid state, and a 1gb onboard SSD for rescues
<midfavila> as for the motherboard's features... it doesn't really have any of its own, which is why i bought it
<midfavila> but it has fuckhuge expansion capability
<drez> 1gb onboard?
<drez> like part of the mobo?
<midfavila> yeah. it's a little integrated USB drive
<drez> oh, cool
<midfavila> uses a little header
<drez> hey, the little usb header
<midfavila> 9-pin i think?
<Gremlin8483> i never knew how important sata ports were before i built mine
<Gremlin8483> but i did so 10 yrs ago so still old tech
<midfavila> my mobo might have a few sata ports but
<drez> the kgpe has an actual usb 2.0 port on the board that's not part of the backplate
<midfavila> i use a discrete disk controller card and SAS disks
<midfavila> LSI9240
<drez> so fancy
<Gremlin8483> i have no idea what those even are at this time
<Gremlin8483> i know sas is backwards sata compatible
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> it's basically just scsi over sata's physical layer
<Gremlin8483> sounds fancy
<drez> ikr
<midfavila> SAS disks are just cheaper and potentially higher quality than SATA ones
<midfavila> plus if i need to do a low-level format like to change block sizes or whatever my card can do that, too
<midfavila> which has actually come in handy a few times
<Gremlin8483> didnt know that, i bought a rack server to play around with and it has sas, didnt research it much yet
<drez> change block sizes?
<drez> does that somehow configure the storage devices themselves?
<midfavila> sector sizes w/e, it's been a while since i've looked into it
<midfavila> and yes, that's correct
<drez> ion get it
<drez> whoa, impressive, very nice
<midfavila> it's been a while since i've looked into it so i won't try to explain in detail because i don't want to deceive you by accident
<midfavila> but from what i recall the size of sectors isn't fixed, it's set by the factory in most cases
<midfavila> but not all
<midfavila> so if you get a disk that isn't set up in that way, your OS won't be able to use it
<midfavila> hence the utility of a "low level" format
<midfavila> idk if it can be done from within an OS or not
<midfavila> might be able to
<midfavila> haven't bothered to look
<Gremlin8483> how fast does your machine build the kiss core/extras when installing?
<Gremlin8483> took my poor intel 8364U laptop an hour, maybe a bit more
<midfavila> i don't track upstream
<midfavila> but i can rebuild my entire core in...
<midfavila> maybe ten minutes
<midfavila> that's just an estimate, it's probably less
<midfavila> but that should reflect on my choice of software as much as my machine
<Gremlin8483> truly porche vs honda civic
<midfavila> even among kiss users my fork is particularly low-fat
<Gremlin8483> do you share the package list some place?
<Gremlin8483> im all about lean
<midfavila> no firefox, no ffmpeg, no nothing. at least in the revision i'm working on right now
<midfavila> as for the previous version(s),
<Gremlin8483> i use w3m myself
<midfavila> kiss-mfavila-large and -small
<midfavila> i'm a links1 guy
<Gremlin8483> can you set up shell scripts to customize links functionality? only reason i went w3m was tabs and also bunch of shell scripts to do custom stuff
<Gremlin8483> ty for the link
<midfavila> links allows you to pass certain data to external programs, but that's about it
<midfavila> to be clear, i don't *like* links
<midfavila> but it's the best of the worst
<Gremlin8483> links also "looks" better kinda
<midfavila> at some point i want to patch links to use libtls and then maybe go from there
<midfavila> i'd *like* to write my own browser with rough feature parity to links1
<Gremlin8483> same with w3m, but i looked at the codebase and at the time it was too overwhelming
<midfavila> w3m is like 50k lines isn't it? and it uses bohm-gc
<midfavila> links1 is comparatively tame at around 30k
<Gremlin8483> i resolved to just whip up some posix scripts to do what i wanted, mainly archive every page i visit, bookmarks, and fuzzy searches
<Gremlin8483> still took days
<Gremlin8483> oh and also use multiple different types of search engine instances
<midfavila> what i'd like to do is basically write something approximating surf, but with links as the engine
<Gremlin8483> wish the mainstream browswers werent so bloated and useless
<Gremlin8483> it'd be nice to have the plugins and addons from firefox
<Gremlin8483> thats the only thing i miss
<midfavila> i don't think plugins or addons are really necessary, personally
<Gremlin8483> no, especially if javascript is disabled
<Gremlin8483> but the modern web is unusable without an adblocker with firefox
<Gremlin8483> text browsers are okay
<Gremlin8483> except for some occasional formatting
<midfavila> i just use an adblocker on my router /shrug
<drez> i like the feature richness of my uxp firefox
<Gremlin8483> that does work, some sites have tricky ways to get around network based blocking
<drez> tree tabs is like crack
<Gremlin8483> they are too crafty
<Gremlin8483> drez i just discovered tree tabs
<Gremlin8483> and yes they are the ultimate drug
<drez> yep
<midfavila> i've never liked tree tabs
<midfavila> i'm an anti-tab extremist
<drez> its perfect for research
<drez> man id just like a research-oriented browser
<midfavila> "research", he says, as he furiously exits furaffinity
<Gremlin8483> you can custom color code and number the tabs, if you have hundreds
<drez> >click to save to warc
<drez> muh, I don't watch that sort of stuff
<midfavila> Gremlin8483: just don't have hundreds of tabs
<midfavila> drez yeah okay
<midfavila> i've seen what you do on your laptop you sick fuck
<drez> pot calling the kettle black
<midfavila> :^)
<drez> criminals judge by their own crimes
<drez> etc etc
<Gremlin8483> well i also rigged my computer to do voice searches, so im constantly searching and spawning tabs
<drez> damn what are you using?
<midfavila> i saw your post about space jam drez
<midfavila> you can't fool me
<midfavila> no matter how much you cope
<drez> space jam?
<Gremlin8483> i can say search something search something2 search something3 enter, and it will spawn 3 tabs and search all of them in one go
<drez> I can only think of the old space jam page that is supposedly still up
<midfavila> >playing dumb
<midfavila> yeah o k a y b u d
<drez> and I only ever watched it in class in middle school
<drez> never again
<midfavila> copecopecopecopecopecope
<drez> hm
<drez> I don't like this word
<drez> but it is likely you are projecting right now
<midfavila> cope
<midfavila> :3
<midfavila> fuckn sitting here fighting with CDE listening to the homestuck soundtrack, what am i doing with my life
<drez> currently sorting my research
<Gremlin8483> lviing the dream it sounds like
<midfavila> it's the dream until it's all you've done for years at a time
<midfavila> atomic bonsai is pretty good though
<Gremlin8483> times flies dont it
<midfavila> yeah i love watching my late teen early adult years fly by in a haze of anxiety and coofing
<Gremlin8483> at least we get to live in the time of fastest technological acceleration in history
<midfavila> >implying this is a good thing
<midfavila> bold move
<Gremlin8483> dunno about you but im a huge scifi nerd
<Gremlin8483> the future cant come fast enough
<midfavila> the future is here, and it sucks
<drez> the future has been here for a good while
<Gremlin8483> weve hit a plateau
<Gremlin8483> but i think after a short period stagation, we go parabolic
<Gremlin8483> who knows
<Gremlin8483> i read too much scifi crap
<Gremlin8483> should i use linux libre or regular, never had to make this chocie before
<midfavila> do you use binary blobs
<Gremlin8483> i know just a tiny bit about libre, only open source stuff
<Gremlin8483> no
<midfavila> then try libre.
<Gremlin8483> okey
<midfavila> if you need binary firmware blobs you'll need to use standard
<Gremlin8483> nah now every time i buy usb stuff, i check to see if the kernel supports it natively
<Gremlin8483> im sick of downloading crap from websites
<midfavila> if a person uses the term "libre" instead of "open source", they're making a hard commitment to avoid non-free software and if you rely on it you won't be able to use libre stuff
<Gremlin8483> ok, i didnt know it was a big deal
<Gremlin8483> too many ppl put libre in the name
<Gremlin8483> libre this, libre toaster, etc
<drez> usb is so unaesthetic
<drez> why can't pretty ports like firewire be widespread
<midfavila> it's also just a pain in my ass
<midfavila> i'd really rather just use serial
<Gremlin8483> nooo you cant take away muh usb
<drez> yeah or db
<Gremlin8483> its the only thing i have left
<drez> or whatever the standard is called
<drez> abcd 1 2 3 4 5
<midfavila> db9?
<drez> db9
<drez> db25
<drez> da25
<drez> ac69
<drez> i forget what its called
<drez> i know it can be a letter pair with the pin count
<drez> parallel also looks cool
<drez> coax/triax looks sci-fi
<drez> especially triax
<drez> 1/4 jacks and xlr looks cool too
<drez> hdmi looks like crap
<Gremlin8483> displayport
<Gremlin8483> i rest my case
<drez> displayport looks like hdmi
<drez> a lot
<midfavila> looks don't matter when the slightest bit of trauma fucking annihilates hdmi ports *and* plugs
<Gremlin8483> its not even symetrical
<Gremlin8483> its so bad
<Gremlin8483> it made me buy a ton of useless adapters
<midfavila> vga, i've heard lots of people say is super fragile, but
<drez> i dont like the locking mechanism
<drez> DVI is fragile too
<drez> but I still like it
<midfavila> i've never once had a vga socket or plug break beyond repair
<drez> I mean as in, it can be annoying to connect properly
<Gremlin8483> plus vga supports up to 1920 res which is enough for most ppl including me
<midfavila> it used to be enough for me
<drez> vga is nice but it isn't digital
<midfavila> now i use 1536x2048 displays
<midfavila> and vga can't even dream of driving that
<Gremlin8483> i use a bunch of displays with lower res
<Gremlin8483> downside, you ahve to deal with a bunch of ports
<Gremlin8483> i can say that the installation is very straightfoward on kiss, its actually very similar to some of the lesser debian/arch forks whcih also use mainly command line
<midfavila> yeap
<midfavila> kiss isn't like, crazy giga brain mode or anything
<midfavila> you just kind of dump it on a partition
<Gremlin8483> i would probably make a shell script in future to automate most of it
<Gremlin8483> its really genius
<Gremlin8483> seen this way, every other distro is needlessly compilcated
<Gremlin8483> now my question is could you use this ever as a production server?
<midfavila> uh, as a server? i mean
<midfavila> that comes down to how comfortable you are administering whatever you set up
<Gremlin8483> you would just have to simplfily depoloyment and package management and patching
<midfavila> btw do any of you have experience troubleshooting libtool? i think that that might be the source of my CDE issues
<Gremlin8483> sorry not me
<Gremlin8483> is full disk encryption something straightforward/robust in kiss? i read some threads where they used a custom initramfs
<sewn> h
<testuser[m]> Hi
TinyTimmyTokyo has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds]
TinyTimmyTokyo has joined #kisslinux
<Gremlin8483> how would i apply patches when building, i have trouble with building efivar, research shows it needs a patch to work with musl, it comes in a .c and .h file, do i just put those in the patches folder in the repo?
<Gremlin8483> or do i just overwrite the source files and retar the source
<Gremlin8483> oh its just a patch with diff, nvm
an3223 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
sad_plan has joined #kisslinux
<sad_plan> hi
<sewn> hi sas_plan
feldzeugmeister has joined #kisslinux
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
fultilt has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.7.1]
sad_plan has quit [Quit: nyaa~]
lanodan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
lanodan has joined #kisslinux
an3223 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
an3223 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
feldzeugmeister has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
an3223 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
<Gremlin8483> would kiss in theory work with a bsd kernel? it should right? being posix based