<Gremlin8483>
hi im trying to see if kisslinux meets my requirements, is it expected to be able to maintain our own initial install tarballs and package repos from here on out? i know there are community repos and some forks but probably better to be self sufficient, thanks in advance
<midfavila>
Gremlin8483: if you want to experiment with the base set of packages, it might be better to be self-sufficient, yes
<Gremlin8483>
thanks for the reply, from what i read its relatively trivial to make a tarball using the package manager to build the pkgs; i have another question, i mostly use POSIX shell as my main scripting language, i heard that should be enough here? no wierd languages or build syntaxes other than posix and c?
<midfavila>
correct
<midfavila>
most of us use POSIX bourne and C here
<Gremlin8483>
that alone is a huge plus for me
<midfavila>
it's not unheard of for people here to work with other languages though
<midfavila>
but it's not super common
<midfavila>
usually python and lua, but I'll often talk about scheme
<Gremlin8483>
i like using other languages, but when it comes to adding them into oses, the complexity is too much
<midfavila>
forth as well
<Gremlin8483>
plus every distro has their own special language
<midfavila>
and yes, you aren't wrong
<midfavila>
i use bourne and C begrudgingly, for systems programming
<Gremlin8483>
but i can get away with just posix and c, no need to touch the rest
<midfavila>
if there's a specialized task that a more expressive language is better at solving, i'll use it then, but...
<midfavila>
meh
<Gremlin8483>
thank goodness
<Gremlin8483>
are we still talking about the distro or programming in general
<midfavila>
programming in general
<Gremlin8483>
cuz for programming in general anything goes
<Gremlin8483>
ah gotcha
<midfavila>
kiss isn't really a distro per se
<midfavila>
it's just a package manager
<Gremlin8483>
fine with me
<midfavila>
like, me for example, i haven't tracked community or official in years
<Gremlin8483>
if there is a philosophy attached to it (simple, posix, c), then that to me is a distro in spirit
<midfavila>
sometimes i'll copy packages but it's not common
<midfavila>
and i suppose that that's fair
<midfavila>
anyway yeah, nobody here will begrudge you for using C or POSIX shell
<Gremlin8483>
i hopped ALL the distros so far, and i think the recurring theme is, this distro lets you do this, this distro doesnt allow those packages, or those build flags
<Gremlin8483>
trying to get away from that
* midfavila
nods
<midfavila>
KISS is basically LFS, so if you can figure it out you can do it. no need to fight against preexisting crap because... there really isn't any
<Gremlin8483>
i watched a tutorial on lfs, itwasnt clear to me how dependency management worked there, i read it was a pain
<midfavila>
it uh, didn't work, because there's no package manager
<Gremlin8483>
but i am decent with posix, so maybe this is the distro for me
<midfavila>
you hand-solve dependency chains and then... yeah
<midfavila>
and hey, only way to know is to try
<midfavila>
unpack a tarball and chroot into it and fiddle for a bit
<Gremlin8483>
installing on a laptop as we speak
<Gremlin8483>
using the gentoo livecd
<midfavila>
>genpoo
* midfavila
retches
<Gremlin8483>
i did some gentoo yesterday but it wasnt for me
<Gremlin8483>
i thought it was a flexible independent distro at first, but all the dependencies python perl and portage
<Gremlin8483>
confusing as hell
<midfavila>
yeah
<midfavila>
if you want the ultimate in customization, use KISS
<Gremlin8483>
plus it puts you on a set linear path of repos, with profiles and system sets
<midfavila>
but expect to spend a not insignificant amount of time digging yourself out of any holes you fall into while tinkering
<Gremlin8483>
just another word for you must go this route or else
<Gremlin8483>
thats the price of freedom
<Gremlin8483>
i want freedom but i dont want to reinvent the wheel
<Gremlin8483>
the posix part is what decides it for me, its how i would do it if i wanted to make a modular simple os
<midfavila>
oh boy is it ever the price of freedom
<midfavila>
i've spent weeks fucking around with CDE
<midfavila>
trying to get it to run on KISS
<midfavila>
and it's really not cooperating
<Gremlin8483>
id rather waste time on something rather than give up control
<Gremlin8483>
first you give up a little
<Gremlin8483>
then more, and more
<midfavila>
well, welcome to the club, then
<Gremlin8483>
cool beans, i hope this is the one, but i said that a lot, from debian to alpine to bsds to here
<Gremlin8483>
but i will say you can never appreciate what you have here without experiencing all the others, you would instead be asking, why this hassle, and doubt yourself
<midfavila>
you aren't wrong
<Gremlin8483>
what kind of problem did you have with cde, btw?
<midfavila>
oh, it's just not linking properly during build
<Gremlin8483>
musl issue?
<midfavila>
no, i think it's something to do with their build system
<midfavila>
it's just not issuing the right linker commands for some reason
<Gremlin8483>
if only c build systems adopted kiss
<Gremlin8483>
there would be no need for heaven, we'd already be there
<midfavila>
desmume doesn't build for me unfortunately
<drez>
no$gba is probably quite minimal , but its proprietary
<drez>
hm maybe try an older release
<drez>
desmume doesn't get much activity anyways
<drez>
>DeSmuME 0.9.10 released! November 28th, 2013
<drez>
>DeSmuME 0.9.11 released! April 15th, 2015
<drez>
?DeSmuME 0.9.13 released! May 23rd, 2022
<drez>
fail
<drez>
quoting fail
<Gremlin8483>
pretty much config for everything pacakge related is stored in shell .profile? simple and genius
<Gremlin8483>
what about retroarch? they are kinda bloated tho
<midfavila>
yeah, it's an option, just not my first choice
<Gremlin8483>
being new to packaging, is there any advantage/skill involved in having "official packages" in terms of security? or its just a matter of timely applying patches that anyone can do?
<Gremlin8483>
i meant offical packages as in distro-maintainers for like distros with big repos, is the security work they do specialized?
<midfavila>
for most? i would say probably not
<midfavila>
red hat probably does internal R&D for security
<midfavila>
openwall most definitely does a lot of that sort of stuff
<midfavila>
debian might
<midfavila>
but honestly? just steal their patches
<midfavila>
sorry, borry
<midfavila>
borrow even
<midfavila>
fuck
<Gremlin8483>
haha that makes a lot of sense
<Gremlin8483>
"appropriate"
<midfavila>
exactly
<drez>
sorry borry
<Gremlin8483>
i was thinking gen[tp]oo, since they have a hardened package branch
<drez>
tp=toilet paper
<midfavila>
that might just be a different set of cflags
<Gremlin8483>
shouldnt the upstream source be resposnible for most security patches?
<midfavila>
use these or a subset thereof and you'll be fine
<midfavila>
and yes, that would be ideal
<Gremlin8483>
or they might not be timely enough
<midfavila>
but sometimes upstream is stupi- yeah
<Gremlin8483>
ah now it all starts making sense
<Gremlin8483>
why things the way they are
<Gremlin8483>
you simply dont learn a lot of this stuff using debian day to day
<Gremlin8483>
meanwhile, my laptop is now an expensive hotplate for the next few hours presumably
<midfavila>
at some point i really need to start doing binaries for people
<midfavila>
open question, do any of you know who runs the kiss community server? i don't mind setting my workstation to run builds of all the community binaries once or twice a month
<Gremlin8483>
charge a compilation cpu time and service tax (jk)
<drez>
>i don't mind setting my workstation to run builds of all the community binaries once or twice a month
<drez>
wut
<drez>
but werent you going to sell it
<midfavila>
i'm still trying to find someone who isn't going to rip me off
<midfavila>
one guy messaged me a while back offering 1500
<drez>
rip you off like pay too little?
<midfavila>
yes
<drez>
you were asking like 3k for it right?
<midfavila>
at least 2500
<midfavila>
it's worth more
<drez>
yah 2.5k is the bare minimum i agree
<Gremlin8483>
thats quite a huge lowball
<drez>
i mean its a great workstation
<drez>
but its not like balls to the wall expensive
<Gremlin8483>
block that user immediately
<midfavila>
indeed, Gremlin8483, especially considering the motherboard alone is selling for 1100 to 1400CAD on its own
<midfavila>
intel s2600cw2r
<drez>
oh ok i didnt know that. lol
<Gremlin8483>
if someone is asking a certain amount and you lowball them almost 50%, that is a red flag
<midfavila>
it's basic economics
<midfavila>
or, well, business
<drez>
then its worth 3.5k at the very least, or youre getting your balls broken
<midfavila>
sellers should always highball, buyers lowball
<midfavila>
anyone who takes a price at face value without negotiating is a sucker
<Gremlin8483>
lowball based on the real value, 50% discount is too much
<midfavila>
his whole thing was "well ya know it *is* a haswell..."
<midfavila>
and it's like... yeah so what? it's a 48 thread workstation
<drez>
hes right though
<drez>
yeah but that single core performance sucks pelotas
<midfavila>
drez, if the main value of the machine was single-core CPU performance, i would agree
<midfavila>
but it's not
<drez>
i see
<midfavila>
the CPUs in this thing are maybe 60$ tops, together
<midfavila>
because xeons are dirt cheap
<drez>
my workstation is very similar to yours
<drez>
except opterons instead of xeons
<midfavila>
it's the motherboard, chassis, and storage that contribute most to the value of my setup
<midfavila>
i was considering an opteron machine originally
<drez>
i have a kgpe
<midfavila>
for that sweet, sweet libreboot
<Gremlin8483>
whats are the storage and motherboard features? i havent built any machines in a long while
<drez>
pretty happy about it
<drez>
but there is one thing
<drez>
it uses way too much power
<drez>
wayyyyy too much
<drez>
made by worse by the fact i have a rx 480 installed on it
<midfavila>
of my machine? i've got 6tb of HGST hard disk space, ~400gb of SLC samsung solid state, and a 1gb onboard SSD for rescues
<midfavila>
as for the motherboard's features... it doesn't really have any of its own, which is why i bought it
<midfavila>
but it has fuckhuge expansion capability
<drez>
1gb onboard?
<drez>
like part of the mobo?
<midfavila>
yeah. it's a little integrated USB drive
<drez>
oh, cool
<midfavila>
uses a little header
<drez>
hey, the little usb header
<midfavila>
9-pin i think?
<Gremlin8483>
i never knew how important sata ports were before i built mine
<Gremlin8483>
but i did so 10 yrs ago so still old tech
<midfavila>
my mobo might have a few sata ports but
<drez>
the kgpe has an actual usb 2.0 port on the board that's not part of the backplate
<midfavila>
i use a discrete disk controller card and SAS disks
<midfavila>
LSI9240
<drez>
so fancy
<Gremlin8483>
i have no idea what those even are at this time
<Gremlin8483>
i know sas is backwards sata compatible
<midfavila>
yeah
<midfavila>
it's basically just scsi over sata's physical layer
<Gremlin8483>
sounds fancy
<drez>
ikr
<midfavila>
SAS disks are just cheaper and potentially higher quality than SATA ones
<midfavila>
plus if i need to do a low-level format like to change block sizes or whatever my card can do that, too
<midfavila>
which has actually come in handy a few times
<Gremlin8483>
didnt know that, i bought a rack server to play around with and it has sas, didnt research it much yet
<drez>
change block sizes?
<drez>
does that somehow configure the storage devices themselves?
<midfavila>
sector sizes w/e, it's been a while since i've looked into it
<midfavila>
and yes, that's correct
<drez>
ion get it
<drez>
whoa, impressive, very nice
<midfavila>
it's been a while since i've looked into it so i won't try to explain in detail because i don't want to deceive you by accident
<midfavila>
but from what i recall the size of sectors isn't fixed, it's set by the factory in most cases
<midfavila>
but not all
<midfavila>
so if you get a disk that isn't set up in that way, your OS won't be able to use it
<midfavila>
hence the utility of a "low level" format
<midfavila>
idk if it can be done from within an OS or not
<midfavila>
might be able to
<midfavila>
haven't bothered to look
<Gremlin8483>
how fast does your machine build the kiss core/extras when installing?
<Gremlin8483>
took my poor intel 8364U laptop an hour, maybe a bit more
<midfavila>
i don't track upstream
<midfavila>
but i can rebuild my entire core in...
<midfavila>
maybe ten minutes
<midfavila>
that's just an estimate, it's probably less
<midfavila>
but that should reflect on my choice of software as much as my machine
<Gremlin8483>
truly porche vs honda civic
<midfavila>
even among kiss users my fork is particularly low-fat
<Gremlin8483>
do you share the package list some place?
<Gremlin8483>
im all about lean
<midfavila>
no firefox, no ffmpeg, no nothing. at least in the revision i'm working on right now
<Gremlin8483>
can you set up shell scripts to customize links functionality? only reason i went w3m was tabs and also bunch of shell scripts to do custom stuff
<Gremlin8483>
ty for the link
<midfavila>
links allows you to pass certain data to external programs, but that's about it
<midfavila>
to be clear, i don't *like* links
<midfavila>
but it's the best of the worst
<Gremlin8483>
links also "looks" better kinda
<midfavila>
at some point i want to patch links to use libtls and then maybe go from there
<midfavila>
i'd *like* to write my own browser with rough feature parity to links1
<Gremlin8483>
same with w3m, but i looked at the codebase and at the time it was too overwhelming
<midfavila>
w3m is like 50k lines isn't it? and it uses bohm-gc
<midfavila>
links1 is comparatively tame at around 30k
<Gremlin8483>
i resolved to just whip up some posix scripts to do what i wanted, mainly archive every page i visit, bookmarks, and fuzzy searches
<Gremlin8483>
still took days
<Gremlin8483>
oh and also use multiple different types of search engine instances
<midfavila>
what i'd like to do is basically write something approximating surf, but with links as the engine
<Gremlin8483>
wish the mainstream browswers werent so bloated and useless
<Gremlin8483>
it'd be nice to have the plugins and addons from firefox
<Gremlin8483>
thats the only thing i miss
<midfavila>
i don't think plugins or addons are really necessary, personally
<Gremlin8483>
no, especially if javascript is disabled
<Gremlin8483>
but the modern web is unusable without an adblocker with firefox
<Gremlin8483>
text browsers are okay
<Gremlin8483>
except for some occasional formatting
<midfavila>
i just use an adblocker on my router /shrug
<drez>
i like the feature richness of my uxp firefox
<Gremlin8483>
that does work, some sites have tricky ways to get around network based blocking
<drez>
tree tabs is like crack
<Gremlin8483>
they are too crafty
<Gremlin8483>
drez i just discovered tree tabs
<Gremlin8483>
and yes they are the ultimate drug
<drez>
yep
<midfavila>
i've never liked tree tabs
<midfavila>
i'm an anti-tab extremist
<drez>
its perfect for research
<drez>
man id just like a research-oriented browser
<midfavila>
"research", he says, as he furiously exits furaffinity
<Gremlin8483>
you can custom color code and number the tabs, if you have hundreds
<drez>
>click to save to warc
<drez>
muh, I don't watch that sort of stuff
<midfavila>
Gremlin8483: just don't have hundreds of tabs
<midfavila>
drez yeah okay
<midfavila>
i've seen what you do on your laptop you sick fuck
<drez>
pot calling the kettle black
<midfavila>
:^)
<drez>
criminals judge by their own crimes
<drez>
etc etc
<Gremlin8483>
well i also rigged my computer to do voice searches, so im constantly searching and spawning tabs
<drez>
damn what are you using?
<midfavila>
i saw your post about space jam drez
<midfavila>
you can't fool me
<midfavila>
no matter how much you cope
<drez>
space jam?
<Gremlin8483>
i can say search something search something2 search something3 enter, and it will spawn 3 tabs and search all of them in one go
<drez>
I can only think of the old space jam page that is supposedly still up
<midfavila>
>playing dumb
<midfavila>
yeah o k a y b u d
<drez>
and I only ever watched it in class in middle school
<drez>
never again
<midfavila>
copecopecopecopecopecope
<drez>
hm
<drez>
I don't like this word
<drez>
but it is likely you are projecting right now
<midfavila>
cope
<midfavila>
:3
<midfavila>
fuckn sitting here fighting with CDE listening to the homestuck soundtrack, what am i doing with my life
<drez>
currently sorting my research
<Gremlin8483>
lviing the dream it sounds like
<midfavila>
it's the dream until it's all you've done for years at a time
<midfavila>
yeah i love watching my late teen early adult years fly by in a haze of anxiety and coofing
<Gremlin8483>
at least we get to live in the time of fastest technological acceleration in history
<midfavila>
>implying this is a good thing
<midfavila>
bold move
<Gremlin8483>
dunno about you but im a huge scifi nerd
<Gremlin8483>
the future cant come fast enough
<midfavila>
the future is here, and it sucks
<drez>
the future has been here for a good while
<Gremlin8483>
weve hit a plateau
<Gremlin8483>
but i think after a short period stagation, we go parabolic
<Gremlin8483>
who knows
<Gremlin8483>
i read too much scifi crap
<Gremlin8483>
should i use linux libre or regular, never had to make this chocie before
<midfavila>
do you use binary blobs
<Gremlin8483>
i know just a tiny bit about libre, only open source stuff
<Gremlin8483>
no
<midfavila>
then try libre.
<Gremlin8483>
okey
<midfavila>
if you need binary firmware blobs you'll need to use standard
<Gremlin8483>
nah now every time i buy usb stuff, i check to see if the kernel supports it natively
<Gremlin8483>
im sick of downloading crap from websites
<midfavila>
if a person uses the term "libre" instead of "open source", they're making a hard commitment to avoid non-free software and if you rely on it you won't be able to use libre stuff
<Gremlin8483>
ok, i didnt know it was a big deal
<Gremlin8483>
too many ppl put libre in the name
<Gremlin8483>
libre this, libre toaster, etc
<drez>
usb is so unaesthetic
<drez>
why can't pretty ports like firewire be widespread
<midfavila>
it's also just a pain in my ass
<midfavila>
i'd really rather just use serial
<Gremlin8483>
nooo you cant take away muh usb
<drez>
yeah or db
<Gremlin8483>
its the only thing i have left
<drez>
or whatever the standard is called
<drez>
abcd 1 2 3 4 5
<midfavila>
db9?
<drez>
db9
<drez>
db25
<drez>
da25
<drez>
ac69
<drez>
i forget what its called
<drez>
i know it can be a letter pair with the pin count
<drez>
parallel also looks cool
<drez>
coax/triax looks sci-fi
<drez>
especially triax
<drez>
1/4 jacks and xlr looks cool too
<drez>
hdmi looks like crap
<Gremlin8483>
displayport
<Gremlin8483>
i rest my case
<drez>
displayport looks like hdmi
<drez>
a lot
<midfavila>
looks don't matter when the slightest bit of trauma fucking annihilates hdmi ports *and* plugs
<Gremlin8483>
its not even symetrical
<Gremlin8483>
its so bad
<Gremlin8483>
it made me buy a ton of useless adapters
<midfavila>
vga, i've heard lots of people say is super fragile, but
<drez>
i dont like the locking mechanism
<drez>
DVI is fragile too
<drez>
but I still like it
<midfavila>
i've never once had a vga socket or plug break beyond repair
<drez>
I mean as in, it can be annoying to connect properly
<Gremlin8483>
plus vga supports up to 1920 res which is enough for most ppl including me
<midfavila>
it used to be enough for me
<drez>
vga is nice but it isn't digital
<midfavila>
now i use 1536x2048 displays
<midfavila>
and vga can't even dream of driving that
<Gremlin8483>
i use a bunch of displays with lower res
<Gremlin8483>
downside, you ahve to deal with a bunch of ports
<Gremlin8483>
i can say that the installation is very straightfoward on kiss, its actually very similar to some of the lesser debian/arch forks whcih also use mainly command line
<midfavila>
yeap
<midfavila>
kiss isn't like, crazy giga brain mode or anything
<midfavila>
you just kind of dump it on a partition
<Gremlin8483>
i would probably make a shell script in future to automate most of it
<Gremlin8483>
its really genius
<Gremlin8483>
seen this way, every other distro is needlessly compilcated
<Gremlin8483>
now my question is could you use this ever as a production server?
<midfavila>
uh, as a server? i mean
<midfavila>
that comes down to how comfortable you are administering whatever you set up
<Gremlin8483>
you would just have to simplfily depoloyment and package management and patching
<midfavila>
btw do any of you have experience troubleshooting libtool? i think that that might be the source of my CDE issues
<Gremlin8483>
sorry not me
<Gremlin8483>
is full disk encryption something straightforward/robust in kiss? i read some threads where they used a custom initramfs
<sewn>
h
<testuser[m]>
Hi
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<Gremlin8483>
how would i apply patches when building, i have trouble with building efivar, research shows it needs a patch to work with musl, it comes in a .c and .h file, do i just put those in the patches folder in the repo?
<Gremlin8483>
or do i just overwrite the source files and retar the source
<Gremlin8483>
oh its just a patch with diff, nvm
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<sad_plan>
hi
<sewn>
hi sas_plan
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<Gremlin8483>
would kiss in theory work with a bsd kernel? it should right? being posix based