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<elderK>
Good evening all :)
<beach>
Hello elderK.
<elderK>
How are you doing, beach? :)
<beach>
Me? Excellent thank you! Making good (but too slow for my taste, of course) progress on my projects. What about you?
<elderK>
About the same. The brightside is that I should be getting surgery around November 4th. Hopefully that'll speed things up again :)
<elderK>
I've been reading a lot of your papers lately - really going down the wormhole :D
<elderK>
They've been very interesting and have led me on a trek to learn more about implementation stuff in general.
<beach>
Good luck with the surgery. Nothing too serious I hope.
<elderK>
Oh, no. It's for the wrists. It should be an in/out kind of thing. I just hope the surgery actually helps.
<beach>
Yes, let's hope so.
<beach>
elderK: Excellent! Let me know when you want a slice of the SICL project to work on. :)
<elderK>
Where would a good place be to like, sound an idea and get a sense whether anyone thinks it would be worthwhile?
<elderK>
beach: Man, that'd be awesome. I'm still trying to ramp up my CL skills. I know the syntax and stuff of CL but I still have a lot to learn about like, how to design a good CL program and how to make the best use of CLOS.
<beach>
An idea for implementing Common Lisp? We discuss such things in #sicl. But here might work as well.
<elderK>
I've finally made a dent in that stack of books I got ages ago: AMOP, PAIP, Sonya Keene's CLOS book.
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<elderK>
I figure I just need to hack and hack more before things become more clear.
<elderK>
I've been reading Shinmera's papers, too.
<beach>
Sounds good.
<elderK>
beach: Not so much for SICL but for a project written in CL. In my day job, I work as a programmer for an E2EE cloud storage company. I was thinking it would be cool to develop something like that but in CL with a focus on stuff I care more about.
<elderK>
There are some things about the product I work on that I think could be done better, or at least, I'd like to experiment to see if it could be done better and given the sensitivity of the stuff, it makes sense to use a more secure language than C or C++, at least, with respect to buffer overflows and stuff.
<beach>
Then expose your idea here, I would say.
<elderK>
Some would say "RUST!" but I have little interest in that.
<elderK>
Hopefully if anyone here is from my workplace, well, they'll keep my posts quiet :D
<beach>
Heh!
<elderK>
Does anyone here see any merit in another cloud-storage company that offers end to end encryption? There are many out there: pCloud, MEGA, NexTcloud and so on. But, more and more, these products have been found to have major cryptographic flaws.
<elderK>
A lot of them implement file synchronization services (which is what I primarily work on, along with filesystems.)
<elderK>
I was thinking it would be cool to do something like that but in CL, open source and with a focus on code quality, and security.
<elderK>
Of course, a major concern there would be CL's portability: These services, when they have client applications, run on most platforms including mobile like Android and iOS.
<elderK>
From what I see, ECL seems to be the best way to target those devices.
<elderK>
But also NAS devices too like Synology or QNAP (which run a wide array of architectures like ARM, PowerPC, x86, SPARC sometimes.)
<elderK>
In any case, I'm just curious as to what people think about this idea.
<elderK>
A lot of companies are entering this arena, in one way or another. It might be saturated. But, maybe that's okay if you just do a good enough job.
* elderK
shrugs
<elderK>
Failing that, I'll just stick on random CL projects :)
<elderK>
As for SICL: I was telling me wife about the papers I was reading: "They're really cool stuff!" :)
<elderK>
Or rather, doing really cool stuff.
<beach>
Thank you.
<beach>
Sometimes I wish I could spend more time on design and new techniques, and less on coding. But then I realize I get most of my ideas from coding. :(
<elderK>
I wish I could nail design and new techniques *without* having to spend a lot of time coding :)
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<elderK>
What are you working on with SICL at the moment? :)
<beach>
On aspect we haven't published is the numerous modules extracted to separate repositories. I am currently working on Iconoclast that defines ASTs and AST transformations that represent Common Lisp code.
<elderK>
That sounds pretty awesome. I've been trying to learn about parser combinators since I read your LOOP paper.
<beach>
Yes, that's an interesting technique.
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<elderK>
I've heard about them but never really used them. Unfortunately, most papers I can find about them are all in Haskell so, I'm piecing together a fuller understanding from F# and Lisp implementations I can find.
<beach>
But I am moving more and more s-expression-level parsing to the separate s-expression-syntax library written by scymtym.
<elderK>
Does Iconoclast perform any like, optimization or simplification transformations on the source ASTs?
<elderK>
That sound smart :)
<beach>
It does. I am currently working on closure conversion.
<elderK>
Is that the same as lambda lifting?
<beach>
Not quite, no, but they are related. Lambda lifting alters the lambda list, but closure conversion introduces a static environment for each function.
<elderK>
I'd like to learn more :) The static environment, does that mean the enviroment for a particular closure contains only what it needs? Would those things need to be immutable? If not immutable, will they be boxed?
<elderK>
(Stealing terms from Lisp in Small Pieces :))
<beach>
Sounds correct, yes.
<elderK>
That's cool :D
<elderK>
See, I wish I could do that instead of working on file synchronization :P
<beach>
Heh!
<beach>
My hope is that Iconoclast is "uncontroversial" enough that it could be used by any Common Lisp implementation as the first pass of a compiler, without taking away other liberties related to design choice.
<beach>
And the associated library "Common Boot" can be used (and is used) to create a SICL-like bootstrapping procedure.
<elderK>
Do you think maybe in the future, if Iconoclast and stuff grow popular, that other implementations might say, converge on that (and Common Boot) and compete on like, lower level stuff?
<elderK>
Like say, ECL on being hyper portable and embedded. SBCL on high-performance and so on.
<Bubblegumdrop>
green thanks for the tip on CL-INTERPOL...
<beach>
I seriously doubt it. But I feel I have to show that it could be the case.
<elderK>
What kind of knowledge does someone need to be able to meaningfully contribute to something like Iconoclast or other projects related to SICL?
<beach>
I think jackdaniel used the word "unconvincing" for a similar idea.
<elderK>
Fair enough :)
<beach>
Now, if someone were to design a new Common Lisp implementation, that's a different story.
<beach>
That someone could make use of all this stuff, so would not have to create it again.
<elderK>
That'd be great.
<elderK>
It'd be nice if there were a full-featured CL implementation that targeted the web. I'm aware of JSCL but I'm not it's production grade.
<elderK>
*sure if it's
<elderK>
beach: I may have asked this before and have forgotten but, what is the backend stuff like for SICL?
<elderK>
I imagine in time, SICL will use its own code generators and assemblers and stuff to generate native ode.
<jackdaniel>
try typing (ed "wecl.lisp") in the repl
<beach>
elderK: Funny you should ask. The plan is to create a library that I called "Posterior" for the backend stuff. It would contain all the code generators needed.
<elderK>
Nice play on words there :P
<jackdaniel>
it is not finished and I'm working on something else at the moment, but I plan for web-ecl to be sort of an IDE where newcomers will try common lisp
<beach>
Thanks! :)
<jackdaniel>
one of things I'd like to see there is interactive playground with programs covered in PAIP
<elderK>
jackdaniel: That's really cool! Is it ECL compiled using emscripten or is it something else?
<jackdaniel>
but, as noted, right now I'm cleaning up code for animations in McCLIM (it works, hence cleaning)
<jackdaniel>
correct
<jackdaniel>
there's also a vague plan to ditch emscripten and target wasi, but this part is not even started yet
<beach>
Posterior would take as input an instruction graph roughly at the level of MIR as defined by Muchnick.
<elderK>
Is WASI the same as WebAssembly?
<jackdaniel>
WASI is a standard library for web assembly (think of it as a very limited libc subset)
<elderK>
beach: I will need to learn about MIR: I know about graph IRs but, only from some introductory textbooks.
<jackdaniel>
wasm runtimes if they are conforming will provide wasi
<elderK>
beach: Advanced Compiler Design by Muchnick?
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
elderK: MIR is nothing special. Address calculations are explicit, and lexical variables are kept in an unbounded number of locations.
<beach>
The maintainer of Posterior can then convert it to something like sea-of-nodes if that turns out to be better, and that person an introduce any number of optimizations.
<beach>
Posterior would also contain several techniques for register allocation.
<elderK>
Nice :)
<beach>
The main problem, as I see it, is that there is more work to do than will fit in my remaining life expectancy.
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<beach>
... so I might have to start finding a successor to train.
<elderK>
Do you have any students or colleagues that will inherit the project?
<beach>
No, I am retired. So it is just me.
<beach>
Besides, the former colleagues do other things.
* elderK
nods
<elderK>
Has anyone here expressed interest in being trained?
<beach>
Nope.
<elderK>
I mean, from what I can see from my experiences here, this channel has a lot of smart people :)
<beach>
It's not a big deal though. The SICL project has already produced a bunch of papers and a large number of independent libraries. So I consider it a success.
<elderK>
If I could get away with it, I would be happy to be a lisp-hacking hermit. I'm just not sure how to square that with the need to make money for rent and such.
<elderK>
I say hermit here speaking of myself, not of other lispers, of course :)
<beach>
The intersection between the set of people who are qualified and the set of people who are available is vanishingly small. :)
<beach>
elderK: I am relatively unique in that I do not have to make money anymore.
<jackdaniel>
isn't #sicl community fairly active?
<elderK>
I understand. Have you written down like, the requirements a successor would have? Prerequisite knowledge and stuff. Maybe even a suggested reading order.
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<beach>
jackdaniel: It is, and several people have created, and are still creating, lots of nice libraries.
<jackdaniel>
I imagine that they adhere to sicl principles, so wouldn't that make them people-in-training?
<beach>
jackdaniel: But I think I am unfortunately still the only one with a good picture of the bootstrapping procedure.
<beach>
jackdaniel: They are all doing a fantastic job. But there is this pesky little bootstrapping technique to figure out.
<elderK>
beach: Is that the same technique you outlined in your paper?
<beach>
Pretty much. But the devil is in the detail. And I need to streamline it.
<elderK>
You'll figure it out :) One question I had when reading the paper - and it took me a few times to really get the idea - was how many stages do you need before everything is an ersatz object?
<beach>
Those are created in stages 3 and 4. In stage 3, they are impure (meaning the class of an object is not an ersatz object) and in stage 4, they are pure.
<beach>
... in the new bootstrapping procedure I am working on.
<elderK>
So by stage for, everything should be pretty much self-reliant, right?
<elderK>
Like, in S3, you need to be impure because you're still relying on the host implementation a little. But, by S4, all the new stuff should be operational?
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<beach>
Yes, in stage 3, the class objects of the objects are "bridge objects", which have the structure of SICL objects, but represented by host objects.
<beach>
But after stage 4, we need to turn the object graph cyclic, so that class objects of objects are also stage 4 objects.
<beach>
I know how to do that, but it can be tricky to debug.
<elderK>
I bet. It sounds like a nightmare to debug.
<beach>
It could be. But then I have created some debugging tools for it. Like the CLIM-based backtrace inspector.
<beach>
The host debugging tools (as they are) are often not available.
<elderK>
Is that because they get made useless by the bootstrap process?
<beach>
Like if I inspect an object in Clouseau, it shows up as <HEADER> not matter its nature. Not so enlightening.
* elderK
nods
<beach>
The host tools would have to be taught about the structure of SICL objects. I think it could be done for Clouseau, but not trivial.
<elderK>
Unrelated question but, I assume you work on SICL pretty much all day, every day. How do you keep your wrists, fingers and elbows from disentegrating? :D
<beach>
I have never had a problem with any.
<elderK>
Much envy :)
<elderK>
CLIM sounds cool, too.
<beach>
It is.
<beach>
I need to take a break to do some chores.
<elderK>
NP :) Thanks for speaking with me, beach!
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<beach>
Pleasure. And now I need a longer break for lunch. :)
<paulapatience>
aeth: I'm reading the zrvl readme, and I happened upon the sentence "Optional reader macros include ones that undo new matrix #M and vec
<paulapatience>
#V printable literal representations." Is the word "undo" right there?
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<paulapatience>
aeth: A couple other questions: Will you spin off zrvl into a separate library, you like hinted you would do with define-function? And are you aware of https://github.com/marcoheisig/Loopus? It is meant for optimizing vector-valued operations and uses sb-simd, though it is not as advanced as it could be. It might be useful for your CPU backend.
<ixelp>
GitHub - marcoheisig/Loopus: A portable loop optimization framework for Common Lisp
<paulapatience>
I actually have a couple libraries that would benefit fron zrvl, some graphics algorithms. I originally wrote an inlining vector arithmetic library that dealt with arbitrarily large vectors, which helps when dealing with 3d points packed into a vector, but sometimes I don't need the packing.
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<srji>
hello
<beach>
Hello srji.
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<contrapunctus>
Somebody mentioned that Quicklisp "seems to be unmaintained"...and I'm not even sure if they mean the client or merely the dist...is it an accurate observation?
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<alcor>
The last distribution update happened yesterday, so I doubt they were meaning the dist.
<alcor>
The client does seem to move slow though – the last commit is from a year ago. But the QL client is fairly simple and doesn't necessarily need high-frequency maintenance updates.
<beach>
It is possible that the distribution was meant; Xach is not as active these days as he used to be.
<Shinmera>
New library release: https://shinmera.github.io/text-draw/ This library implements some functions to draw graphics using pure Unicode text only.
<ixelp>
Text Draw
<phae9>
oh wow thats a really useful library :) thx
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<varjag>
nice
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<varjag>
incidentally i was wondering if there's any existing library for servicing menus on alaphanumeric lcds
<varjag>
before i write something
<phae9>
you mean seven-segment displays?
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<varjag>
more like hd44780 dot matrix character displays
<ixelp>
HD44780 1602 LCD module Display 2x16 white signs blue background
<varjag>
available in different sizes
<phae9>
oh those things
<phae9>
I dont think theres anything for them unfortunately
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<varjag>
apparently there isn't
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<pl>
varjag: question is, what are you going to drive it from?
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<pl>
varjag: because that heavily impacts how you're supposed to program an interface to it
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<varjag>
pl: linux has a driver that's not an issue
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<varjag>
and i had my own driver before linux got one upstream
<varjag>
was thinking more of menu tree handling and the like
<varjag>
but i'll put something together tomorrow
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<alcor>
The fact that MAKE-HASH-TABLE doesn't support a custom hasher function in standard CL is puzzling. I know most implementations seem to support that as an extension, but is there some kind of portable facade/wrapper library that papers over this omission?
<varjag>
i'm not sure it was an omission
<alcor>
I find it hard to imagine that the standards comittee did it on purpose…
<varjag>
if it's something glaringly obvious it is near guaranteed the committee considered it
<varjag>
but decided otherwise
<alcor>
It's very possible they didn't come to an agreement or that other issues prevented it. But it's unlikely it went down like "Ok, let's *not
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<varjag>
alcor: how many languages where hash tables are first class allow to customize the hasher?
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<alcor>
Not many, but said languages have a sane default hash for class/struct instances.
<alcor>
There is no way to hash a CLOS instance by content in standard CL.
<alcor>
You only get the default behavior where the identity is used, which is … suboptimal in some cases.
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<aeth>
paulapatience: I don't need any intermediate libraries for targeting SIMD other than SB-SIMD. Even SB-SIMD is a bit too high level because I already have to undo things like variadic functions before reaching that point.
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<aeth>
I already have to target a high-level assembly (SPIR-V) for the primary target, shaders, so I already have something lower level than what most libraries are working with.
<pl>
alcor: often what actually happens is that said languages instead have a standard interface to provide your own hasher
<pl>
per data structure
<pl>
or they YOLO it and expect you to not notice
<alcor>
pl: That's what is missing here in CL, I guess 🤷
<aeth>
CL does give you more than enough to implement your own hash table... it's just... it's presented as either implement your own or use the rather limited MAKE-HASH-TABLE
<aeth>
GETHASH wouldn't be generic over it, but that doesn't seem to really matter as much vs sequences
<aeth>
I guess the lack of maphash/loop iteration support would make it a bit awkward.
<aeth>
More loop than maphash because you can just map-your-hash
<paulapatience>
aeth: Got it
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