<paulapatience>
I'd like to like CLPM but I had trouble using it on OpenBSD. It wouldn't compile into a program, so I had to use it as a script, and it was unbearably slow to load each time.
<paulapatience>
Unfortunately development on it has stalled a bit
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<tux0r>
hand-coded scripts for me..
<tux0r>
the state of CL helpers is sad, to say the least
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<paulapatience>
The default value of a slot in defclass is called initform. What would be a good name for the default value of an initarg, specified in :default-initargs? Initval?
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<elderK>
paulapatience: default-initarg sounds good to me :P
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<elderK>
Why do you need a default specified in the default-initargs when you can have it in the initform? Is there a difference in when they are evaluated?
<pranav>
elderK: Yes, initforms are evaluated at a later stage.
<paulapatience>
elderK: default initargs are almost always better
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<dnhester26>
antoszka: qlot is quite useful, it uses quicklisp, and you can also just use a git repository and other sources as well, and it keeps the state of the system in a file, so that you can replicate it somewhere else
<dnhester26>
antoszka: also, you can use a different quicklisp distribution like ultralisp, which is updated more often
<dnhester26>
even Shinmera or shirakumo has their own distribution in quicklisp, so you can use quicklisp and get more recent systems by adding distributions
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<antoszka>
dnhester26: yeah, thanks, I forget about the alternative QL distros
<dnhester26>
btw Shinmera is there any difference in using your systems from the quicklisp distribution instead of directly from the repository in github?
<Shinmera>
the dist is not always updated and my github repos sometimes aren't buildable
<Shinmera>
I update the dist whenever there's a fix I consider important
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<Shinmera>
so I recommend using it, especially because people have a habit of *not* keeping their git clones up to date with upstream
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<dnhester26>
thanks for the reply. We'll since I use qlot it would basically amount to the same thing since it just freezes the version it saves unless I manually do upgrade to avoid breaking changes
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<dnhester26>
good to know about the buildable though, I will probably migrate into the dist version
<Shinmera>
you'd still have to figure out which commit to update to
<dnhester26>
btw, how do I specify in quicklisp to download from shirakumo instead of the default dist? I'm assuming the way the dists work is that it just looks for more sources, not replaces where to look for them, which would mean that it would find multiple results for the same system
<Shinmera>
when you add a dist it assigns it a unique priority number
<Shinmera>
whichever has the system and the higher number takes precedence
<dnhester26>
can anyone recommend me a good book on parallel programming and concurrency? I didn't take the course in college and I've always felt that I'm missing some basic knowledge. I use threads here and there and it's never really been an issue, but I would at least like to formally learn the main issues and solutions
<dnhester26>
Shinmera: thanks, so it's about changing that priority number
<dnhester26>
what's the best way to get a `t` value if something would evaluate to t, instead of say ,(null (null "hello"))
<ixelp>
(null (null "hello")) => T
<Shinmera>
(not (null x))
<dnhester26>
thanks, so there's no direct function
<dnhester26>
oh, I wrote null twice, I mean not null, thanks for the fix
<Shinmera>
I pretty much never care to return an actual boolean instead of a generalised boolean, myself
<dnhester26>
right, I am returning something to a web client and was thinking of avoiding protecting data that shouldn't be revealed, I just wanted a found or not found without returning the value if found
<Shinmera>
ah
<yottabyte>
coming from Java, one thing I don't like is when I have a package I have to explicitly export my public functions, so I have to copy the name and go back to the top where I've defined the package and it with #: and so on. but even if I don't do that, it appears I can just call it by my-package::my-function-that's-not-exported. but in Java, you just put "public" in front of the method you want to expose to the outside
<yottabyte>
I'm sure I can probably write some macro or something to "decorate" functions I want automatically exported publicly, but yeah...
<yottabyte>
and then I have to go back to where I was in the file which I also find cumbersome
<Shinmera>
having to explicitly list your interface is good, actually.
<yottabyte>
but if you can just ::, what's the point?
<Shinmera>
:: tells you that you're doing something naughty
<Colleen>
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, tell, hello, roll, help, set, say, mop, get, tell to,
<Shinmera>
programming is more about communicating with the human than the computer, you know?
<yottabyte>
true...
<yottabyte>
do you use emacs, Shinmera?
<Shinmera>
begrudgingly, yes
<yottabyte>
when you go to the top to add an export definition, how do you go back to where you were? do you just remember the line number and go to the line, or is there a shortcut to bring me back to where I was?
<Shinmera>
I code my stuff first and when I'm done I go through the files and keep the package open in another window to add the stuff I want to export in.
<Shinmera>
I don't know about shortcuts or anything, it takes almost no time to do this compared to actually writing the software
<Shinmera>
And I frequently realise I want to adjust a name or something, so it gives me some time to ponder
<ixelp>
GitHub - m2ym/cl-annot: Python-like Annotation Syntax for Common Lisp
<Shinmera>
cl-annot is Bad
<dnhester26>
bookmarks!!! thank you beach that was the feature I've been looking for all this time, should've just google it hahaha
<Shinmera>
It breaks source analysing pretty terribly
<dnhester26>
Shinmera: I don't know much about it, I've just seen it used in projects
<Shinmera>
besides just committing the age-old sin of trying to pretend like lisp is another language it isn't
<beach>
Oh, yeah, cl-annot looks bad.
<beach>
Isn't fukamachi also the one who created cl-21 or whatever it was called?
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<beach>
Oh, wait, Fukamachi didn't make cl-annot it seems. Just contributed.
<Shinmera>
He used to use it in his projects in the past
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Speaking of which, we haven't seen him lately. He came to ELS once. Marbella was it?
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<dnhester26>
beach: yeah, was that not a goot attempt?
<beach>
dnhester26: CL21? No, I think it was completely misguided.
<dnhester26>
beach: do you have thoughts on what would be good changes that can be added as a package? or at this stage it doesn't matter because we rely on emacs to tell us what the arguments for a function are anyways so we don't actually have to remember?
<dnhester26>
btw I saw your SICL presentation in the lisp symposium. Keep up the good work! I'm excited to try it out when you publish it
<beach>
dnhester26: I am not sure what it is that you would like to see? I am with Shinmera in that I use Emacs "begrudgingly", and we need much better tools, but I don't see any changes to the language as needed.
<beach>
dnhester26: Thanks!
<beach>
dnhester26: Though people should not fixate on SICL the Common Lisp implementation. We have already created many (20 or more?) libraries that implement parts of the standard and other libraries to help with implementation.
<dnhester26>
beach: oh, from what I remember it was about some accessors not being consistent and some functions that have the same arguments have them in different order and things like that
<Shinmera>
the far more important thing is that other people can read your code
<Shinmera>
and the easiest way to ensure that is to use the standard library
<Shinmera>
I don't know cl21, so I'd have to learn it to read code using it instead of cl
<dnhester26>
beach: right, I remembered you mentioned that you were making a bunch of things work according to the spec that implementations not always got right, so it would seem that because of it being in CL it will lead to implementations hopefully using parts of it to conform better with the spec, and I think I also remember you mentioning something about it being less buggy since it was done in CL, and some things were faster? my memory is
<dnhester26>
not very good though, so I apologize if I am remembering incorrectly
<beach>
dnhester26: I don't think I have made suggestions to alter the language. The WSCL project is meant to specify parts of the standard that are currently unspecified, provided that most Common Lisp implementations agree on the desired specification.
<dnhester26>
Shinmera: I think the changes are not many, he started it but I think he abandoned it. Here's the motivation I just found "You use different functions to do the same thing to different data types (elt, aref, nth). You have long names for commonly used macros (destructuring-bind, multiple-value-bind). There is no consistency in argument order (getf and gethash). To put it simply, the language is time-consuming to learn."
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<dnhester26>
beach: oh sory, I was talking about SICL there, not about altering the language. That was the original question I had, if you think any style changes would be useful, or probably not just to keep everything standard
<beach>
Oh, I see. There are many people who think that Common Lisp is not used as much as it deserves because it is hard to learn, and the fix they see is to change the language so that it is easier to learn. I have news for them. The reason Common Lisp is underused has nothing to do with that.
<beach>
dnhester26: Sure, I want the SICL-related libraries and the SICL Common Lisp implementation to be higher quality that what we currently have. And we created several innovations that we hope will make the result fast.
<dnhester26>
the more time I've spent using it, the more I love it, I really don't understand why people don't use it more. The argument that corporate developers need static typing and handcuffs to keep them from being too creative doesn't hold it's ground when we consider startups.
<Shinmera>
dnhester26: it doesn't matter
<boigahs>
I hate the "dont use any libraries or macros or else random strangers can't read your program" argumenr
<Shinmera>
if you don't care about anyone reading your code then you can do whatever you want, of course
<boigahs>
They are not going to understand it without a little effort regardless, unless the program is trivial
<Shinmera>
I *do* want people to read my code, so I *do* care
<beach>
boigahs: I don't think anybody is arguing that. But there is a strong argument against using a library that does not add any functionality, and only alters the language being used.
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<Shinmera>
boigahs: the point is this: most people know cl, but not cl21. So most people will need more effort to read the code that they could otherwise read without extra effort.
<Alfr>
Shinmera, hehe ... so, no pulling a dwim.hu?
<Shinmera>
I'm not familiar with the dwim.hu ecosystem, so I can't comment on that
<Shinmera>
Anyway, I think ultimately cl21 fails at what it sets out to do: make the language easier to learn. And it fails at that because people need to learn the crufty parts of cl anyway if they ever want to read anything else. And they're going to have to, because all other resources are written like that.
<Shinmera>
We're stuck in a tarpit
<Alfr>
For CL being rather small for a standards document, admittedly we're missing some things, I don't think the crufty parts are the problem.
<beach>
Alfr: What are we missing?
<Alfr>
Memory semantics for threads.
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<beach>
bike is working on that.
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<Alfr>
(I'm not saying that it doesn't work; as we have implementations that seem to do some right thing™.)
<beach>
Alfr: But people use languages without any standard at all every day. So not everything has to be in the standard. We are lucky that such a large part of a usable language is standardized.
<scymtym>
some functions that do not accept an environment probably should accept one. as gilberth frequently mentions, binary streams lack some of the features of character streams. to name a few random ones
<Alfr>
beach, indeed.
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<beach>
scymtym: I agree with that, and those are minor changes that would even be backwards compatible in most cases.
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<jackdaniel>
I have a deja vu reading this discussion :)
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<jackdaniel>
I think that fukamachiware is a proof, that if you produce software that solves a problem, people will bother to read it -- even if it is not to their liking
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<yottabyte>
part of me likes doing things the hard way, so I enjoy learning and writing cl, but I do think e.g. Clojure feels better to write from a developer experience perspective, beach
<yottabyte>
it just seems more thought out... but I could be very misguided in that thought. CL supporting decades of old code and its backwards compatibility is probably well thought out as well, but that comes at a real cost
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<dnhester26>
beach: so why are not more people using common lisp? not wanting to change anything here, I am very happy using it. at this point i'm just curious about your thoughts
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<yottabyte>
I thought cl21 was a neat idea, I've never used it, but I'm all for abstracting and simplifying things
<beach>
dnhester26: I think it is fairly simple. It is not taught in "modern" university teaching programs.
<beach>
dnhester26: And the professors are previous generation students, so they have not been taught it either.
<yottabyte>
well, idk how often javascript is commonly taught either. it might be changing now, but I don't think javascripts popularity came from academia, is what I'm trying to say
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<beach>
yottabyte: Sure, if Common Lisp would be the preferred browser language, it would not have to be taught at the university.
<yottabyte>
same with python, even. I think python got popular and now schools are starting to teach it. historically it has always been C, C++, Java, from what I saw
<kanuba>
I was taught Python and Perl about 20 years ago in uni
<kanuba>
(along with VB, but let's ignore that)
<beach>
Yes, that's the very problem. University professors teach what is already popular elsewhere, rather than using knowledge (that they don't possess) to choose a language for its intrinsic qualities.
<beach>
So universities are failing at their mission which is to be at the forefront of knowledge. And instead they have misunderstood their mission to be to supply manpower to industry.
<beach>
Well, that's in fact exaggerated. Professors don't possess the required knowledge, so they do the only thing they know, which is to mimic what others do.
<yottabyte>
I would hope every professor would be an expert in cl (:
<beach>
They wouldn't have to be experts, but they definitely should have some working knowledge of it in order to qualify as teachers of programming and programming languages. But they don't.
<dnhester26>
beach: oh, you just summarized that beautifully. It was very painful to read the announcement of MIT dropping scheme for their intro in favor of python because they said modern programming is not about developing beautiful programs but rather stitching together a bunch of things and leveraging other people's code, and python just has a large ecosystem. They basically are saying, we need to just produce people who can work, not scient
<dnhester26>
ists. at uni, Georgia Tech, they always joked that we were trained to be scientists and magically expected to work as engineers
<beach>
Sounds about right.
<attila_lendvai>
Alfr, i'm here to defend the dwim.hu stuff... :) the syntax we introduced are mostly straightforward, just increasing readability. and compared to the size of the codebase, it's a trivial obstacle.
<dnhester26>
but yeah, I agree with the points brought up yottabyte I think python became popular first and then taught. I didn't learn it in school, but for some classes in AI which were language agnostic I just started doing something as a scratch test and it was just so much faster to develop in it and easier that I never moved on to java and just finished it with python... I think there is something to say about how easy something is to pick
<dnhester26>
up in terms of popularity. if CL were somehow easier to pick up for beginners at least to the basic level of doing things in python, I think the popularity would jump. I wonder if what makes it so difficult for people is prefix notation. On the other hand, I've read so many accounts of people saying that scheme was very easy to learn that I wonder if it was just the teaching materials or something in particular about scheme that made
<dnhester26>
it easier than CL
<attila_lendvai>
dnhester26, it's not so long ago that the baseline memory footprint of cl is not relevant anymore
<yottabyte>
I actually don't think it's the prefix notation. I think the tooling might be the biggest issue, honestly
<Alfr>
attila_lendvai, it's fine after getting used to it.
<dnhester26>
attila_lendvai: what is thw dwim.hu stuff? I just tried going to their website and repos, the readme files don't seem very useful
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<owen>
wym, CL has the best tooling of anything I have used by a mile
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<attila_lendvai>
another thing that hinders CL's popularity is the personality types that ended up becoming CL experts in the environment of the past decades... what comes to mind is my struggle with Helmut, the Slime maintainer a decade ago...
<owen>
much better than scheme
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<beach>
What owen says is common, so I don't think the tooling is the problem. I don't agree with it, but that's a different story.
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<attila_lendvai>
dnhester26, it's slowly bitrotting. the dwim.hu site once had a webapp written in the hu.dwim.* lib ecosystem we worked on (4 hungarian guys doing the usual enterprise bullshit, but in CL). it was about a decade ago now.
<yottabyte>
idk, the amount of setup I had to do on emacs to get it up and running...
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<beach>
And, again, I don't think it is that the language is harder than any other language to learn.
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<attila_lendvai>
yottabyte, yeah, CL is pretty useless without slime (emacs), which is a strong filter right at the very first step.
<beach>
In fact, Common Lisp semantics are way simpler that those of other languages.
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<owen>
I guess the fact that you *have* to learn emacs is the biggest issue, as attila just said
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<attila_lendvai>
owen, yep. but the learning curve is steep...
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<attila_lendvai>
and the community (used to have) an attitude that... well... how shall i put it... required a thick skin to stick around as a beginner...
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<attila_lendvai>
e.g. i had to argue for years to make UTF-8 the default...
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<yottabyte>
I've found the community very welcoming now, but I think a lot of people are tunnel visioned with how long it took them to become productive and become proficient with the tooling
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<yottabyte>
anyone can start typing away in javascript and python with the lsps built in to common editors
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<yottabyte>
emacs doesn't even give you file tree view by default
<attila_lendvai>
a lot has changed... i think CL used to be dominated by the GNU kind of guys, but with the internet some new blood has diluted that attitude
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<attila_lendvai>
dnhester26, i forgot to add that i'm one of those 4 dwim.hu guys
<attila_lendvai>
yottabyte, emacs comes from an era that wasn't yet domanited by microsoft... and doesn't have a lot of the expectations that became common with m$ conquering IT
<owen>
filetrees suck anyway, but I think someone who uses emacs for C or other langs wouldn't have an issue getting productive in CL quickly, besides learning metaprogramming
<owen>
just open sly/slime, load-system, and hit C-c C-c
<attila_lendvai>
ohh, the nostalgia... we used to do stuff like using CL expressions as in the authorization system, and used partial-eval to optimize it. and writing continuations into the SQL db in our business process modelling framework...
<yottabyte>
I don't even know what load-system is. I just ql:quickload
<owen>
compare that to figuring out how to use python venvs and configuring the LSP
* attila_lendvai
has looked at the dwim.hu repos
<owen>
yottabyte asdf:load-system, I do mostly just use quickload though
<attila_lendvai>
sadly, there's a lot of value in the dwim.hu ecosystem lying there unemployed...
<yitzi>
I find the statement "CL is pretty useless without slime" to be completely untrue. I have done plently of CL programming without Emacs.
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<random-nick>
and slime is only 21 years old
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<contrapunctus>
owen, attila_lendvai and others: The problem of "must use Emacs to work with Common Lisp" has to be solved by improving support in other editors and IDEs...but I've been working on an Emacs configuration with keybindings, behaviour, and appearance as close to existing IDEs as possible. https://codeberg.org/IDEmacs/IDEmacs
<ixelp>
IDEmacs/IDEmacs: Making Emacs beginner-friendly, via configurations that emulate mainstream IDEs - Codeberg.org
<attila_lendvai>
yitzi, fair enough. `useless` was too strong a word. it's not useless, but without slime the experience is way much worse (unless i'm not aware of something new)
<contrapunctus>
I haven't worked on it lately because there hasn't been much enthusiasm for it. I hope I can integrate it into Shinmera's Portacle some day, so it's just one binary with SLIME, Paredit, SBCL, Git, etc...hopefully making it easier for Windows users and first-time programmers, hopefully.
<contrapunctus>
s/, hopefully//
<Shinmera>
honestly the portacle emacs config can probably be thrown away almost entirely
<Shinmera>
but then again so can the rest of the project given it hasn't been maintained in years lol
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<attila_lendvai>
i'm torn about reconfiguring emacs. i've done quite a lot of it myself, but i'm not sure it's productive mid- or long-term to go all the way to approach the other IDEs...
<contrapunctus>
The current main IDEmacs configuration mimics VSCode. Of course, it's a WIP at present.
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<dnhester26>
attila_lendvai: I'll get in touch probably tomorrow about dwim.hu, I have a few questions that are too long to write now
<dnhester26>
contrapunctus: I think paredit is very much not beginner friendly and adds a big barrier to entry for beginners
<dnhester26>
just my 2c
<contrapunctus>
dnhester26: Yes. I've evaluated different options, ended up using adjust-parens (which is similar to Paredit but easier to install and works even in REPL buffers). IIRC Paredit is not enabled by default in IDEmacs-VSCode. I'm also interested in making gamified interactive tutorials for various bits of Emacs, including Paredit.
<contrapunctus>
adjust-parens is similar to * PARINFER, not Paredit
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<dnhester26>
contrapunctus: that looks awesome! I never even heard about it, but had I heard about it I would've definitely have started there. I attempted to start with portacle and emacs but the barrier of entry was just too high and I needed to get things done, so I jumped into vscode with alive. I think it was after countless observations by beach that I really had to develop with emacs that I finally gave up vscode and jumped into emacs and
<dnhester26>
have lost probably 3+ weeks time just configuring it.
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<owen>
there needs to be a whole new IDE imo, something mouse-friendly like vscode, maybe the clozure IDE solves this but I haven't tried, and I believe it only runs on x86 macs
<owen>
I used Lem for a while, it's fun but just as difficult to get into as emacs
<dnhester26>
owen: any benefits of lem over emacs besides that they are developing it in CL?
<owen>
the main benefits are that it is a small CL codebase, and making new frontends is doable (someone has a CLIM frontend working rn)
<owen>
the main drawback is that it is not very good for languages other than CL
<random-nick>
what mouse-friendliness is missing from emacs?
<owen>
idk i only use mouse to resize windows, but it is not mouse-oriented to the same degree as vscode or java IDEs
<owen>
which is what new users expect (i think)
<dnhester26>
thanks for the answer, so basically for a user there's yet to be any benefit
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<dnhester26>
beach: btw, I imagine you are extremely busy with SICL; with that said, what is the state of the CL IDE you once mentioned you wanted to make and for which you made a text editor or buffer? Was it waiting for SICL so that you could integrate into it some of the special features you spoke about then (I don't even remember what they were, just remember they sounded very cool)
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<scymtym>
dnhester26: beach was probably talking about second climacs. some features of the current state of second climacs are demonstrated in this video: https://scymtym.github.io/content/second-climacs-9.mp4 . it is something like an incremental progresss report, so it does not show everything from scratch
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<dnhester26>
scymtym: thanks for sharing. is there some sort of road map for second climacs? or document explaining expected dates and features?
<scymtym>
dnhester26: there are certain things we want to implement most of which revolve around having the editor analyse the code much more deeply than is typical. but there is no roadmap and certainly no dates
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<varjag>
was there ever a discussion/interest in a socket level abstraction that is less ad-hoc than usocket?
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<paulapatience>
aeth: I've implemented all I need for an initial version of my record library. It just needs some clean up and documentation. I haven't put any equality predicates in, but I have included a record-merging behavior, where the merging style is specified in the define-record's "slots", so that records can be merged automatically.
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<kagevf>
yottabyte: chiming in belatedly regarding packages - you could do a split with C-x 2 with one split being the top of your file and the other being where you're currently working. Having said that, though, from what I've observed, it's more common to put DEFPACKAGE into a separate file, such as "package.lisp". You could still use the screen split for that too, of course.
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