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<aeth>
paulapatience: The vector language has a separate, distinct, type system where %VECs (well, they're currently called %%VECs because I made a bit of a mess of a partial rewrite...) and %MATRIX types are fundamental, primitive types. When the backend is SPIR-V, this maps fairly directly. When the backend is SB-SIMD, this should map well, too, except the available types are less abstracted over from
<aeth>
whatever the hardware happens to provide and there are no 2x2 to 4x4 matrices.
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<aeth>
As far as non-SIMD CL is concerned, a (%vec 3) could be a (simple-array single-float (3)) or 3 separate single-float scalars or anything else as convenient, except if they're returned to CL, in which case the one that's returned has to be represented as a (simple-array single-float (3)) which matches the (vec 3) DEFTYPE for the CL type
<aeth>
This uses GLSL-style naming conventions so VEC is single-float, DVEC is double-float, IVEC is (signed-byte 32), UVEC is (unsigned-byte 32), and bvec is... that's kind of a special case.
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<aeth>
A BVEC is, from the CL side (if exposed directly rather than in the DSL), a bit vector of 2, 3, 4, but in SPIR-V and GLSL terms, it's treated as a boolean vector, sort of like Scheme bitvectors (true and false, or in the case of Scheme, #t and #f, even though it's (probably) bits under the hood)
<aeth>
A similar difference is that ZRVL uses ZRVL:TRUE for TRUE so you can copy the many, many, many math/physics equations that use T as a variable.
<aeth>
But ZRVL:TRUE is a constant that evaluates to CL:T, so if you're using it from CL, you can still use T
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<aeth>
paulapatience: I may add a fourth, "pedantic" backend that always treats types, where possible, as the equivalent CL types, and basically kills all optimization potential. So (* matrix (+ u v)) would actually cons up two vectors, cons up a result vector, cons up a matrix, multiply the matrix times the vector, and return the vector result as a fresh cons.
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<zwr>
LISP is syntax is so neat. It's a mystery why new languages don't copy LISP syntax instead of C syntax. Currently on chapter 6 of https://gigamonkeys.com/book/
<ixelp>
Practical Common Lisp
<beach>
zwr: We have written the name of the language "Lisp" rather than "LISP" for the past few decades.
<beach>
zwr: Congratulations to learning Lisp. You may want to join #clschool if you have questions.
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<aeth>
zwr: The good thing about the syntax is, really, that there isn't one. Or at least, not much of one. Lots of bikeshedding in syntax that wastes brain cycles that could go towards semantics.
<aeth>
That's half of why people do heroic-scoped things in Lisps
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<zwr>
aeth: what's "heroic-scoped"?
<aeth>
Small, scrappy, focused teams writing large, interesting software projects.
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<aeth>
The Lispiest way is to go one level more meta, and write a "language" in which your problem is trivial instead of trying to solve the problem directly.
<aeth>
CL:LOOP and CL:FORMAT do this, as does e.g. CL-PPCRE for regex.
<aeth>
Or you can take an external format (such as HTML or SQL) and express it in s-expressions.
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<beach>
aeth: "meta" could be a bit too advanced for zwr who is just starting out.
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<aeth>
It's something that you never write, but always use. Such as LOOP, where there may have only been 5 people to have written one?
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<paulapatience>
aeth: Thanks for all the details.
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<aeth>
paulapatience: you're welcome
<aeth>
I had to get a bit verbose because it's not written down anywhere.
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<beach>
phoe: Are the online Lisp meetings definitively gone, or could they happen again?
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<Josh_2>
Hey
<Josh_2>
I just tried SLIME for the first time in a few years... Seems a lot less intuitive than before.
<Josh_2>
Click to inspect doesnt work, company mode doesn't work, colours are gone :skull:
<Josh_2>
Back to Sly I guess :joy:
<Josh_2>
Okay company mode does work its just slow
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<Josh_2>
I tried out slime on my work machine with ACL and wondered why company mode wasn't working properly, thought it was some incompatibility with ACL, but its not :skull:
<Josh_2>
Guess I'll use Sly on my work machine as well
<Josh_2>
Maybe I dont have some minor mode enabled
<Josh_2>
Why doesn't company mode work properly :angry:
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<Josh_2>
Okay I got it
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<Josh_2>
The fact that Slime jumps to the definition when looking up xrefs is very annoying
<Josh_2>
Have to navigate with arrow keys?
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<younder>
I have abandoned company mode for Cape. A bit more work to set up, but it is more configurable, you can define what to search for so you can make it faster (or slower..)
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<McParen>
does anyone have information or an opinion about the future of quicklisp, or in general, about the future of library handling? what is the most likely successor?
<ldb>
I have only notice no new dists has been released for about a year, what happend?
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<McParen>
Maybe it is not appropriate to speculate about the maintainer. I wanted to ask what other sources are being used, what could be an alternative in future.
<younder>
shinmera has a series of more updated repos
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<Shinmera>
someone else can publish another version of the quicklisp dist that updates more often
<Shinmera>
it's on my plans, but my plans are already stuffed, so I don't have that much time for altruism
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<younder>
Soyyr, brain fart on my part, shirakumo
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<McParen>
Shinmera, what would currently be the next best way to get libs and resolve dependencies, the way ql worked?
<McParen>
younder: thanks, did not know about that repository.
<younder>
Notice the last update October 1'st
<McParen>
I rather notice that most of the libraries i use are currently not included..
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<McParen>
but these are shirakumo-only packages, right?
<Shinmera>
not just shirakumo, anything that's needed for the shirakumo ecosystem
<younder>
Yeah, of course he is working on a game engine
<Shinmera>
*she
<Shinmera>
but shirakumo includes other stuff, too, like webdev things with radiance
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<McParen>
I had no idea that the "shirakumo ecosystem" is that large.
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<younder>
Seems like my quicklisp/local-project has 26 entries..
<younder>
Biggest problem causers are bordeaux-threads and McClim + clx + zpb-ttf
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<Shinmera>
Mine has 231 :)
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<srji>
quicklisp is dead?
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<yitzi>
Its out of date. There has been some activity in the last week.
<srji>
too bad
<yitzi>
Why?
<srji>
i like quicklisp
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<aeth>
quicklisp is kind of "dependency management done the right way" as opposed to the worse-is-better way that requires versioning your dependencies and pinning those versions, etc., etc., because nobody is there to verify that the whole thing actually works together
<aeth>
but the downside, of course, is that as currently implemented it has a bus factor of one, and it quite a lot of work for that one person even without the bus, and even with a nonprofit or something, probably wouldn't scale to a very mainstream language's scale
<aeth>
but it's still very appropriate that Common Lisp attempts MIT-style (as opposed to Worse is Better) dependency management when everyone else goes for a much more chaotic approach.
<aeth>
On the other hand, it is kind of like the packages provided by Linux distros, so perhaps it scales more than I imply.
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<random-nick>
aeth: versioned dependency supporters would probably say that ignoring versions/not versioning packages is the lazy thing to do and versioning packages and dependencies is the right way
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<fe[nl]ix>
they would be wrong
<aeth>
random-nick: Versioning dependencies is done when "dependencies" are seen as separate. A distribution of software, whether a Linux distro or Quicklisp, is designed to be installable all at once. At least in principle. I think Quicklisp may have name clashes, just like Linux distros had name clashes that prevented C# (with the csi for iirc C-sharp inspector) and Chicken Scheme (csi for Chicken Scheme
<aeth>
interpreter?) from being installed at the same time (I don't think that that's currently an issue, though)
<aeth>
So it scales more easily, but is less proper because you still haven't solved "can I install everything at once if I wanted to?"
<aeth>
So I really do think this is a sort of WIB
<aeth>
They're not mutually exclusie. Versioned dependencies can make the job of the distribution maintainer easier if followed and if there's a combination where all libraries together work.
<aeth>
*exclusive
<aeth>
Of course, you never install _everything_ at once, but with dependencies-of-dependencies things can rapidly spiral into a substantial subset of available packages unless all dependencies are disciplined.
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<bike>
i would think the problem here is that they are, actually, separate, or at least developers aren't actually coordinating every change
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<aeth>
Well, distributions don't empower the developers, but rather the distributor. More work to get the distribution together, but you can't fully trust the developers even if they're currently trustworthy. They can e.g. sell the project to a malware company like many browser add-ons do.
<aeth>
In theory, the Quicklisp dist could do that, too, but everyone would notice it and a replacement would quickly (?) form
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<erin93>
Hi, I am trying to (asdf:load-system "cl-gtk4") in the sbcl repl and getting an error: "Typelib file for namespace 'Gtk', version '4.0' not found". Does this mean I am missing the required libgtk4 libraries? I have used guix to install the sbcl-cl-gtk4 package.
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