<opalvaults[m]>
I've had luck in automating the recreation of those documents into markdown, but I get the same impression of the dpANS project (although I would have done this in Markdown for ease of community contribution + the ease of translating markdown into PDF from sites such as readthedocs.io).
<opalvaults[m]>
ah well.
<phoe>
scymtym has a working TeX parser that outputs HTML, so it should be bendable to output markdown as well
<opalvaults[m]>
I appreciate the hard work you put into that. It was interesting going through the documents.
<phoe>
well, my work is a milestone in how not to approach working on projects like that
<phoe>
glad that you find it useful
<opalvaults[m]>
It was to be my attempt at teaching myself through re-implementing referential documentation. :P
<opalvaults[m]>
However honestly for one person, I imagine that there's no best way to approach something of that scope if you've never done so beforehand.
<opalvaults[m]>
It's bound to become implementation-spaghetti eventually.
<opalvaults[m]>
I found the same problems documenting security procedures at work. It becomes a constant battle to automate and implement and keep up to date (and find the time to do anything in between, or get anyone to agree on any scent of nebulous-ness)
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<hobo>
does anyone here have experience with croatoan whose brain I can pick real quick?
<hobo>
better yet, I'll just ask
<hobo>
is there a concept of having focus?
<hobo>
if I have to windows, how does croatoan know which window is receiving keyboard events?
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<susam>
Merry Christmas, #commonlisp!
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
Thanks susam. To you too.
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<opalvaults[m]>
mornin' beach
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<hobo>
merry christmas
<beach>
Thanks. To you too.
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<elderK>
Merry Christmas all! :)
<beach>
Thanks elderK. You too.
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<alfonsox>
Merry Christmas all.
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<beach>
Time to start thinking about Lisp-related new year's resolutions.
<hayley>
Hopefully I'll get into the mood to work on Netfarm again, but I'm not expecting that right now.
<beach>
I won't make any such promises myself.
<hayley>
I have holiday time, and then a semester of part-time study, so I should be able to help out though.
<beach>
Great!
<hayley>
(That said, w.r.t Netfarm, for most of 2021 I felt like everyone wanted the opposite of what I was working on. Recently I had some success sharing around some articles I wrote, but those articles have nothing to do with Netfarm.)
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<hayley>
Still lots of fun to be had in any case. A friend is slowly getting closer to specifying and implementing enough of a message-sending object-oriented object-capability language, and I've been tasked with working out how to make a metacircular implementation for it. But that is not Common Lisp related (and that's the point :)
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<lisp123>
Merry Xmas All!
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<nij->
Is there anyway to let Climacs to read elisp and be augmented by packages written in elisp? The idea is that to attract more people temporarily, and gradually replace the packages by common lisp.
<rotateq>
to you too lisp123
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<lisp123>
rotateq: Any plans for today?
<lisp123>
nij-: I was thinking something similar, but different - write an elisp emulator in CL and port Emacs
<nij->
How would that work, in principle?
<lisp123>
Haven't really thought it through
<nij->
E.g. some elisp package has effects on emacs buffer. So at least we need to coerce emacs buffer into climacs buffer?
<lisp123>
I was arguing with some people on r/Emacs but they noted that most of the more advanced elisp packages are already using a CL compatability layer
<nij->
That's nice.
<lisp123>
So I wouldn't be suprised if there is an influx of package developers in the future
<random-nick>
nij-: I don't think that's very feasible, you'd have to emulate a lot of emacs internals for elisp packages to work
<lisp123>
IMO the wins will be from adding more backends to CLIM
<nij->
lisp123: what does that mean, in more concrete form?
<lisp123>
Let all the big companies developer GUI, just need a comptability layer
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<lisp123>
For example, I am working a general framework for GUIs in SwiftUI (Apple), and if you create the APIs on both sides, you can have Lisp programmers write in CLIM and then have it displayed in Swift for example
<nij->
Yeah lets just focus on the end effect. It's a temporary solution, just to let people switch to climacs without pain.
<lisp123>
The #clim guys are doing much more - canvas backends among other things. Then dbotton is doing CLOG
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<beach>
nij-: (first) Climacs is not good enough. And Second Climacs is mainly meant to be excellent for editing Common Lisp code.
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<beach>
nij-: Neither one can reasonably compete with Emacs in most other areas.
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<nij->
:(
<beach>
Emacs packages rely not only on the Emacs Lisp programming language, but a lot on the architecture of Emacs, so you would have to emulate that entire architecture, which would mean you no longer have (first) Climacs or Second Climacs, but Emacs rewritten in Common Lisp.
<beach>
I think it is a much better strategy to make Second Climacs irresistibly good for Common Lisp programming, and then count on the users to perhaps rewrite their favorite Emacs packages for Second Climacs over time.
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<rotateq>
no why do you ask? i cooked the meal recently, maybe working on something today, wee'll see. and you?
<lisp123>
rotateq: Not much, might go out for dinner in a bit.
<rotateq>
ah okay. i made "Leberkäse" today :D totally ontopic. not.
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<lisp123>
rotateq: Looks tasty :) Ok back ontopic
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<Guest4615>
HellO!
<Guest4615>
Merry Christmas Lispers!
<rotateq>
hell⍤
<rotateq>
and to you :)
<Guest4615>
:D
<rotateq>
and merry lispmas ^^
<Guest4615>
oh thats a good one :P
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<rotateq>
i learned it yesterday from here
<Guest4615>
Hey so I am trying to write my own "plus" fnc which can addd a variable number of numbers
<rotateq>
so with &REST
<Guest4615>
Is there a good way?
<Guest4615>
Somebody told me to use APPLY
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<rotateq>
apply what then? #'+ ?
<rotateq>
you can do (reduce #'+ list) or (apply #'+ list)
<Guest4615>
ah maybe thats it
<rotateq>
reduce offers some additional options like a KEY keyword
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<Guest4615>
woot. apply works
<Guest4615>
thanks man
<rotateq>
maybe better opic for #clschool :) we can meet there
<rotateq>
s/opic/topic
<Guest4615>
theres a clschool channel? so cool
<rotateq>
yes here's often discussion about some more "advanced" topics or questions that lead to this
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<nij->
Steele's book "Common lisp, the language." feels easier to read than CLHS. However, I've heard that there's a difference between them, i.e. they do not specify the exact same language. Should I not read Steele, as many implementations are based on CLHS but not his book?
<rotateq>
yes and yes, if it helps you
<rotateq>
and better version 2 ;)
<nij->
I'm not sure if it will mislead me, as it's not the "real SPEC"..
<rotateq>
no it's a very good additional resource imo
<random-nick>
cltl1 was released in 1980 and it was the starting point for the CL spec
<lisp123>
Yeah its an excellent resource, well recommended
<random-nick>
cltl2 was released during the standardisation process and not all of its changes ended up in the CL spec
<random-nick>
and not all CL spec changes made its way into cltl2
<rotateq>
and CLtL2 in 1990 :) even covers in the end a possible implementation for backquote, for which even Steele himself(!) claims that's it is all other than trivial
<nij->
I'm not sure.. so which one is the real standard?
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<rotateq>
*sigh*
<nij->
.. that most implementations are based on. (e.g. sbcl, ccl, ecl.. etc.)
<nij->
If it's the real standard, I might not care. // Does the real standard also has some difference between CLHS?
<random-nick>
I don't know how accurate it is
<random-nick>
but the clhs is the defacto standard
<beach>
nij-: You won't notice the difference. There are a few bugs in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, but not many and not very important.
<random-nick>
and the clhs is apparently a machine processed version of a draft of the real standard
<beach>
Right, but as scymtym's presentation for the online Lisp meeting showed, bugs were introduced in the translation process.
<nij->
Interesting.
<nij->
GASP.. "SBCL is a mostly-conforming implementation of the ANSI Common Lisp standard." Ok I guess that's life.
<beach>
What is your problem with that phrase?
<pjb>
They don't guarantee 100% conformity.
<beach>
nij-: It can be argued that 1. It is impossible to be entirely conforming because of (minor) bugs in the standard, and 2. It is not desirable to be entirely conforming because of some (silly) bugs in the standard.
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<phoe>
3. it might be preferable to have e.g. unicode behavior rather than strict CL conformance with regard to lowercase-uppercase character mappings
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<rotateq>
yeah and not of the kind of rude trying to argue "is this the best it can do?"
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<semz>
Afaik all deviations of CLHS from the standard are also pretty obvious. prog1 and prog2 are clearly not intended to do the exact same thing.
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<nij->
I see. This makes me more comfortable to read Cltl2. Thanks :)
<nij->
After this form (https://bpa.st/ENAQ), is it correct to say that USER is a class, but USER is also an instance of a (meta)class MITO:DAO-TABLE-CLASS?
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<beach>
Yes. All classes are instances of some metaclass.
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<rotateq>
so even the metaclasses themselves :)
<beach>
nij-: You can try (class-of (find-class 'user)) after you evaluate that form.
<beach>
rotateq: Indeed.
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<rotateq>
All looking at the ⊤ class.
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<beach>
rotateq: What?
<rotateq>
beach: They all have ⊤ as superclass.
<beach>
Yes, but this was about finding metaclasses, not superclasses. So if you continue the CLASS-OF application, you will end up with STANDARD-CLASS.
<rotateq>
(just to explain what I meant surely)
<rotateq>
yes right ok
<rotateq>
but I didn't see yet the :col-type slot keyword, maybe they changed the DEFCLASS macro
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<beach>
The metaclass introduced it no doubt.
<rotateq>
ah ok makes sense :)
<beach>
It probably created a subclass of STANDARD-DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION.
<rotateq>
I didn't get this far till now but good to know.
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<asarch>
I have: (defclass foo () ((beer :initform 3))) and then (defclass bar (foo) ()) and I would like to have 6 as the default value of beer in bar. How can I do this?
<asarch>
Should I (defclass bar (foo) ((beer :initform 6))) or should I (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance foo)) (setf (slot-value instance 'beer) 6))?
<rotateq>
asarch: add an initform
<rotateq>
oh sorry
<rotateq>
I'm often typing when not have read all. :D
<rotateq>
hmm good question
<rotateq>
I'm also still not so sure when to use this default-initargs
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<asarch>
I see
<asarch>
Anyway, I will use initialize-instance then
<asarch>
Have a nice day :-)
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<rotateq>
oh noez
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<asarch>
Tadaima! I'm back!
<rotateq>
good!
<asarch>
How is better (in terms of efficiency)? (setf buffer (concatenate 'string buffer "…")) or just (setf buffer (format nil "~s …" buffer))?
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<rotateq>
SETQ :P
<rotateq>
may be implementation dependent again
<sm2n>
they should be equivalent modulo format string parsing
<Alfr>
asarch, vector with fill pointer and using vector push.
<Alfr>
asarch, recall that stings are vectors of characters.
<hayley>
Many Lisp implementations generate formatter functions at runtime, if the format string is constant.
<Alfr>
*vector-push
<sm2n>
hayley: I think you mean s/runtime/compile time/
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<hayley>
Right.
<sm2n>
also to the earlier question asarch, you should prefer :initform
<sm2n>
if you use initialize-instance it's not a default value anymore
<sm2n>
even if you pass a value to make-instance it will be overriden by your method in that case
<asarch>
I see
<sm2n>
initialize-instance is more for doing things on new objects in general, for example putting them in a pool etc
<asarch>
Then you have to override the former beer declaration, right?
<asarch>
(defclass bar (foo) ((beer :initform 6)))
<sm2n>
yes, that should work?
<asarch>
So, in this case, there is no point to use foo as the super class of bar, right?
<sm2n>
well, absent of any context sure
<sm2n>
if you add slots to foo those will trickle down
<sm2n>
and you still get dynamic dispatch
<pjb>
There could be a (defmethod drink ((bock foo)) (swallow (slot-value bock 'beer)))-
<pjb>
and you would want it to work for bars too.
<sm2n>
^
<asarch>
Or even better (set spam (make-instance 'bar :beer 6)) by doing "manually"
<sm2n>
...then it's not a /default/ value
<asarch>
Bingo!
<sm2n>
if you haven't looked at it already, you should read sonya keene's book on CLOS
<sm2n>
it's an invaluable resource
<asarch>
I wonder how she…
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<asarch>
You have (let ((food '(beer taco pizza))) …) and then (loop for element in food do …). Is there a way to know what element (n-th) you are currently in every loop?
<hayley>
(loop for element in food for n from 0 ...)
<asarch>
Something roughly a la (if (eq (first food) element)) …)
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<alcaeus>
Merry xmas everyone, is the channel active rn?
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<rotateq>
seriously?
<asarch>
Actually, this space is for rent
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<rotateq>
"Get of my lawn!"
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<dre_>
if I'm going to be stuck without internet for a while, what's the best way to have a reference to common lisp ?
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<dre_>
I suppose I have PCL and LOL and I could just flick through that to find something I want to do, but if I could have a thing like 'how do I do x' -- offline, while I'm away, that would be helpful
<rotateq>
offline CLHS
<rotateq>
i have it linked in the browser (the symbol index A-Z) for fast lookup
<rotateq>
or of course symbol lookup via slime which opens it
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<dre_>
yeah I was thinking slime might have something worthwhile for me, but I (as a lowly vim user) will keep clutching at my pearls
<dre_>
does emacs / slime have CLHS inbuilt ?
<dre_>
I might have to just bite the bullet and jot down some common keybindings
<rotateq>
i use spacemacs
<rotateq>
have learnt vim before and it's kind of integrated for the editing part. much fun
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<asarch>
How can you make Emacs to "unlearn" a word for word suggestions? E.g. when you type 'indxe' instead of 'index'?
<rotateq>
oh i still don't know much emacs magic, sry
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