<hayley>
sm2n: You have a choice between websocket-driver, websocket-driver, and websocket-driver. Sorry.
<White_Flame>
sm2n: I fiddled with a lot, and none are truly feature complete
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<unixlisp>
websocket-driver and portal are recommended by awesome-cl; there are others such as fast-websocket, trivial-ws, etc.
<hayley>
fast-websocket is the websocket packet parser used for websocket-driver, and trivial-ws wraps websocket-driver and Hunchensocket.
<hayley>
portal is new, but AIUI you'd have to have another server for normal HTTP stuff? Had my hopes up for a moment.
<hayley>
*new to me
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<unixlisp>
hayley: right.
<sm2n>
I see...
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<Guest36>
Ayo Lispers, need some help
<beach>
Hello Guest36.
<Guest36>
Hello (Mr/Mrs) Beach
<rotateq>
hi Guest36
<beach>
Guest36: What appears to be the problem?
<rotateq>
see guest74, now we have this situation
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<Guest36>
So I want to figure something out. Class C inherits from Class A and B. Class A1 is "effectively" class A but with a particular value for one of its slots. I created A1 to allow me to specialise some methods
<rotateq>
do you have code to bring on a pasteboard?
<Guest36>
Damn I'm confused
<beach>
rotateq: So far, even I can follow it. :)
<Guest36>
Ignore me. Let me think some more :-/
<rotateq>
oh hm
<Guest36>
I basically want a method on class C, but specialising based on the values within its slots
<rotateq>
beach: oh what did i say? and no, you're the absolut expert here :)
<Guest36>
the slots it inherits from class A
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<beach>
rotateq: I am notorious for not understanding what people try to tell us.
<beach>
Guest36: You can't use the value in a slot as a specializer.
<beach>
Guest36: You can use a class or a particular value (with EQL).
<Guest36>
Yes, I got to that. So I decided to "create" class A1 so that I could create methods that specialise on A1
<Guest36>
But the problem is C inherits froM A and not A1
<rotateq>
beach: I noticed you from the first lines on to be very precise and clear with much experience, even that I didn't know then who you really are. :)
<Guest36>
I got to figure this out...
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<Guest36>
Perhaps I gotta create C1 which inherits from A1 and B vs. A and B
<contrapunctus>
o/
<Guest36>
hmmm that might work
<rotateq>
in such situations a drawn diagram would help me visualize ^^
<rotateq>
hi contrapunctus
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<contrapunctus>
hello, rotateq
<Guest36>
I should do that...ignore me until then
<Guest36>
back to the drawing board
<contrapunctus>
(or the keyboard...SCNR)
<rotateq>
oh whiteboards are still great
<Guest36>
sorry gotta go, my gf is waiting! ill be back!
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<contrapunctus>
I'm trying to set up EQL5-Android. I followed the README-PREPARE.md, but when I run `./1-make-ecl-host.sh`, I get this - http://ix.io/3J1K .
<rotateq>
or TikZ :D in the gallery iirc there's an example for a class diagram but maybe too limited and I'm still bad at TikZ
<contrapunctus>
I have gcc-11 installed^U wait, I didn't have clang? wat
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<contrapunctus>
...but even after installing clang-13 I still get the above x-P
<rotateq>
phew clang
<rotateq>
how about tcc? :D
<rotateq>
hm or you ask in #ecl
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<contrapunctus>
ah okay, thanks ^^
<engblom>
I commented out the stupid systemd stuff from the script and now it works
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<engblom>
Sorry, wrong channel
<rotateq>
some days ago i needed something, had no laptop with me and the app CL-REPL saved me :)
<rotateq>
engblom: no problem, good to read you
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<jackdaniel>
Guest74: filtered-functions based on closer mop may get you half the way there
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: they're gone :)
<rotateq>
it's when people insist on getting a non-generic nickname after some time
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<jackdaniel>
isn't guest36 and guest74 the same person?
<beach>
Unlikely.
<jackdaniel>
I see
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: but this filtered-functions sounds interesting
<edgar-rft>
there's 38 guests difference
<jackdaniel>
btw it is funny that his generic function is waiting! :)
<rotateq>
haha
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<jackdaniel>
(because, you know, usually it is the other way around,)
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<rotateq>
edgar-rft: so what is your theory on that number? mysterious
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<edgar-rft>
relativity theory :-)
<rotateq>
So CLOS is the most powerful OO system in the galaxy, I wonder what they do in other galaxies.
<edgar-rft>
rotateq: have you tried FFi to contact aliens?
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<rotateq>
sure, but maybe my mind is still not ripe enough that they take me and teach me everything they know
<rotateq>
until that time comes up, I'm good to learn CL completely, will take many years more. the details ...
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<VincentV`>
rotateq: RE: /CLOS and what they have in other galaxies/. So I have recently learned about garnet, and it has prototype OO called KR. Prototype OO is argued by some to be more flexible than class-based OO. The basic premise is that instead of classes you simply clone objects -- while setting slot values, adding/(removing?) slots, the whole inheritence deal etc. The inflection point is: you don't have to specify types of the new object
<VincentV`>
(particularly in garnet, you have to set :is-a slot, every object is of type "schema"; I don't know how if other such systems do it better). So, this seems to be more dynamic. But then, again, I wonder how well it bodes for performance (e.g. you can't do gradual typing on these in particular, but, in principle, you could probably find a way to do it).
<VincentV`>
Even though not all of these points are relevant against something like CLOS (e.g. changing behaviour at runtime is supported pretty damn well in CLOS, and I bet it's more robust with change-class), it does make you wonder. Maybe even some sort of a system where you can go from one to another (ie gradual) could be the next most alien(ating) thing on the line.
<rotateq>
VincentV`: oh cool and yes, much to discover and combine powerful ideas
<VincentV`>
\nick VincentVega
<VincentV`>
rotateq: yeah
<rotateq>
the other way around :)
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<VincentVega>
rotateq: always trips me
<rotateq>
I see or learned CLOS till now as a metaobject system which can be forged to others. (the ones with this class-centered thing they call OO)
<rotateq>
VincentVega: one does not simply ...
<VincentVega>
rotateq: sure
<VincentVega>
rotateq: : )
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<gendl>
Hi, what is the predominant way to connect common lisp to mysql or mariadb?
<_death>
seems to be missing qmynd (I've no experience with it)
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<rotateq>
gendl: instantly i think about clsql, but for mariadb I'm not sure. or one writes an add on
<rotateq>
or what about nosql
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<engblom>
When it comes to nosql databases, I think berkeleydb would be a really good option if the CL library would just be worked on a bit. What I like with berkeleydb is how everything is pairs (a bit like a alist) and both the key and the value can be of any native type in any programming language.
<engblom>
You never have to translate between different types.
<rotateq>
at CERN they also use couchdb
<rotateq>
there's a CL tool pgloader or so for SQL databases, to bring them to postgresql with one click
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<dim>
and pgloader welcomes contributors! ;-)
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<beach>
Happy solstice everyone!
<Guest74>
rotateq: my nick will always start with guest74. Just like everybody elses nick will always start with their nick with some random character(s) after.
<Bike>
unadorned nouns or bust
<Bike>
seriously though the "Guest" thing is kind of confusing.
<Guest74>
maybe I'll get a proper noun for my birthday.
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<VincentV`>
*IRC hates him!* With this one simple trick...
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<lisp123>
stylewarning: I tried reading https://coalton-lang.github.io/20211212-typeclasses/ but unfortunately it was too advanced for me, but I am just curious where CLOS fall shorts as a type system? I saw some mention of "generic values"
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<Bike>
the perhaps silly way that i think about it is that generic functions can't specialize on their return type.
<lisp123>
Bike: I see, that kinda makes sense
<Bike>
the bit on this post in map sums it up: "Common Lisp does not allow map to deduce its return type based off the surrounding context", and indeed that's kind of a nonsensical proposition with the semantics of the language
<Bike>
whereas in haskell or coalton or whatever that's no problem
<lisp123>
But wouldn't the return type be contingent upon the inputs to a function so one should just create distinct generic functions, depending on the input?
<Bike>
for map the return type is not continent on the inputs to the function (other than the specifier input). you can map a list to a vector, a list to a list, whatever.
<lisp123>
true
<lisp123>
ok that's starting to make a bit of sense
<Bike>
in the example in this blog post, you could also consider how "identity" would work as a generic function
<Bike>
...it wouldn't, since it doesn't actually have any arguments. the only thing to "dispatch on" is the context
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<lisp123>
I need to read that bit again, I didn't quite get it. What does "context" mean in this sense?
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<lisp123>
The bit about specialising on return type, would that be more useful when coercing from one type to another? I saw mention something of that in the post, so that kinda makes sense to me
<Bike>
that's also in the post, yes
<Bike>
Consider the lisp form (+). that is defined to be an integer 0. If you write (+ 3.7 (+)), what that means (prior to optimization) is that you call +, that returns integer 0, that's coerced to a single float, and then added to the float 3.7
<Bike>
+ is "not aware" of its context in a floating point computation
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<Bike>
In a language like coalton, you could have (+) return a different zero depending on its inferred return type
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<lisp123>
I see, that's pretty cool!
<lisp123>
Bike: Thanks for the explanations, now it makes sense
<Bike>
No problem
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<yitzi>
Seems like if you were actually trying to implement an algebra with generic functions you could just accomplish this by specializing on a "group" or "field" instance.
<yitzi>
That would basically be the same thing.
<Bike>
sure, people do that. and actually i think that's how coalton implements typeclasses under the hood.
<Bike>
means passing some more arguments around, though.
<yitzi>
I think that is what Weyl did. (Lisp based algebra).
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<jcowan>
First-era industrial capitalism worked on the principle of "work fast and break people and other living things".
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<Bike>
jcowan, when you respond to something hours later like i assume you're doing, can you give me some kind of hint so I don't sit for a minute trying to understand what coal mines have to do with computer algebra systems
<Bike>
(if it is related i want to understand that too)
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<jcowan>
Sorry, I tend to forget when I am scrolled back or not
<jcowan>
not like the old days when I could see how many folds of TTY paper I had in hand
<hobo>
woof
<hobo>
need some cream for those joints? ;)
<_death>
I don't care about specializing on the return type, but it would be great if I could declaim a GF's return type without SBCL clobbering it :/
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<pjb>
In the old days, nntp or irc traffic was smaller than nowadays too.
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<jackdaniel>
especially during the first-era industrial capitalism
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<rotateq>
pjb: but people also liked to paste bigger ASCII pictures :D
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<utis>
how come (reduce #'intersection '((a b c))) returns (a b c)?
<Bike>
because when you give reduce a one element list, it just returns the element.
<Bike>
you gave it a one element list, that element being (a b c).
<yitzi>
If you want other behavior then use :initial-value, but returning the set is more mathematically correct.
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<pjb>
utis: (reduce #'intersection '((a b c)) :initial-value '(a b c d e f)) #| --> (c b a) |#
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<pjb>
utis_: (reduce #'intersection '((a b c)) :initial-value '(a b c d e f)) #| --> (c b a) |#
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<utis_>
aha . . thank you
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<utis_>
i didn't realize this had nothing to do with #'intersection
<Bike>
yeah. reduce actually won't call intersection at all in this case.
<Guest74>
not to mention reducing with intersection wont get you what you're probably expecting.
<pjb>
∩ s
<pjb>
s∈S
<pjb>
why not. intersection reduction is useful.
<Guest74>
oops, i was thinking of set-difference.
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