azonenberg changed the topic of #scopehal to: libscopehal, libscopeprotocols, and glscopeclient development and testing | https://github.com/glscopeclient/scopehal-apps | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/scopehal
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<Stephie-> azonenberg, are the files for AKL-PT4 public? I'm interested in seeing your design there even if it's in an extremely unready stage
Stephie- is now known as Stephie
<azonenberg> Stephie: Not currently, no. it's in a private repo as it was intended to be a collab w/ sensepeek
<Stephie> understandable
<azonenberg> but it would be pretty trivial to replicate
<azonenberg> it's basically the PT1 schematic squished into sensepeek probe head form factor
<azonenberg> good grounding is a problem i never solved
<azonenberg> i think the best option for a high BW probe in that form factor is to make it active differential
<Stephie> yeah, me too
<azonenberg> with two needles and some kind of adjustment screw to adjust pin spacing
<azonenberg> and then ground can be whatever
<Stephie> sensepeek seem to have a 500mhz design coming
<azonenberg> i remain extremely skeptical that they can hit anywhere close to that without a good grounding solution
<Stephie> might be why the communication stopped
<Stephie> azonenberg, they changed the whole design to something replicating a traditional probe tip
<azonenberg> link?
<Stephie> seems they only showed it at a trade show and the only video of it is on tiktok... seriously https://www.tiktok.com/@electromaker.io/video/7111717501456747781
<Stephie> seems to go back to a more classic "hand probe + holder" design, just with a slimmer probe
<azonenberg> idgaf
<azonenberg> without a spring ground on that ring
<azonenberg> on that barrel*
<azonenberg> there is no chance they are getting 500 MHz bw
<Stephie> yeah, I assume they had that planned
<Stephie> they just used a shitty ground for the show
<azonenberg> except the fundamental problem with spring grounds and positioners
<azonenberg> they're stiff and provide horizontal force when loaded
<azonenberg> while the positioner only applies vertical force
<azonenberg> so unless you have an exposed ground plane at *exactly* the right distance from your test point, they're useless
<Stephie> yeah, i do wonder how it'll turn out
<Stephie> but seems to be where they're headed
<azonenberg> i consider the spring ground on the classic passive scope probe to be the worst grounding solution, except all the others
<Stephie> i tend to design my boards around them, with dedicated groumnd test points at about the right spacing
<Stephie> i shouldnt have to but it works
<Stephie> and well, it only works if you thought about putting a test point there beforehand
<azonenberg> They're also extremely prone to shorting
<azonenberg> *especially* if under any lateral pressure
<azonenberg> one slip of the finger and the spring pops out and touches something else
<azonenberg> very often the tallest thing in close proximity is a power bypass cap
<azonenberg> boom you're dumping vcc into your scope ground
<azonenberg> And my experience is also that test points are handy but i very often find myself probing stuff i didn't anticipate when I designed the system
<Stephie> yeah, definitely
<Stephie> options for good grounding are fairly limited outside of solder-ins
<electronic_eel> yey for solder in probes
<Stephie> they really are great, though i wish they weren't as neccesary
<electronic_eel> try probing a 0.5mm pitch qfn with something else than a solder in probe...
<azonenberg> electronic_eel: funny you say that because i am right now looking for a handheld multimeter probe to do exactly that :p
<azonenberg> but yeah there is a reason i am working on this whole line of solder in probes
<azonenberg> there is no good alternative
<electronic_eel> i have multimeter probes from probemaster. they have very sharp pins. they work well for what they are. but holding them on a bump of a 0.5 pitch qfn is not what they are made for
<azonenberg> yeah i just ordered a set of fine pitch probemaster probes to see if they're at least better than my current fluke leads
<azonenberg> but i want something suitable for things like continuity or voltage measurements on 0.5mm pitch qfn parts
<electronic_eel> what i often do in this case is solder a small wire to the pins or bumps i'm interested in and then probe them with a small grabber probe. this allows me to quickly change between different test points without resoldering
<electronic_eel> quick continuity testing, when you are sure that touching or shorting the pins next to it doesn't damage anything, works quite well
<electronic_eel> i have an idea for a quick continuity tester that doesn't output more than 0.2v in the back of my brain. that would not be able to damage all but the most sensitive circuits
<Stephie> does anyone know who manufactures replacable pogo pins like the ones pcbite uses?
<Stephie> ah, found the right keywords right after asking :P
<azonenberg> Hmmmm
<azonenberg> So the CL mode loop does not correct my DC offset on the BUF802
<azonenberg> but i think i may have found a root cause
<azonenberg> the negative supply rail is about -4.541V while the positive is at +4.476. Which means mid supply is not actually at ground, it's at-65 mV
<azonenberg> Positive bumps up to 4.509 when I add 1M ohms || R4 (turning it into effectively 9.9K ohms vs the original 10K)
<azonenberg> And interestingly that made the offset problem worse by a tiny bit maybe? i now seem to have a 104 vs a 98 mV offset
<azonenberg> actually no its 101 vs 98. so susbstantially no change
<azonenberg> also, switching output to the multimeter to get better resolution
<azonenberg> and the offset is dropping over time, it's 20 uV less than it was a minute ago
<azonenberg> i wonder if it's temp related too
<azonenberg> But that makes it hard to know if a change i made actually was helpful lol
<azonenberg> anyway, let's say actual offset without scaling factor of the board right now, with the 1M ohm resistor added and set up on the fixture etc, is -10.036 mV
<azonenberg> And when floating (no "0V" input provided from signal generator) the output is -10.515 mV
<azonenberg> FLoating after removing the 1M resistor, offset is -10.183 mV and still dropping
<azonenberg> yeah now it's -10.107 and seems to be pretty stable
<azonenberg> now let's connect to the sig gen...
<azonenberg> -9.725 mV or so
<azonenberg> ok so that's substantial and measurable, the resistor made it worse
<azonenberg> but that also suggests that the offset is indeed at least partially controlled by supply voltage
<azonenberg> OTOH, the impact is weak
<azonenberg> 400 uV with that change, i need to correct a whole 10 mV of offset which is 25x greater
<azonenberg> which would (assuming linear everywhere else) translate to a whopping 825 mV shift in the supply rail. which can't be right
<azonenberg> something else is going on
<azonenberg> The ADA4075 specifies max offset of 1 mV with typical of 200 uV
<azonenberg> so where is this offset creeping in?
<azonenberg> I measure -1.585V at Vaux (on R13)
<azonenberg> The DC level on IN (on R14) is -245 mV
<azonenberg> and OUT (before R10) is -19.65 mV
<azonenberg> VIN measured at C8 is -2.8 mV
<azonenberg> and voltage on the DUT thru line (nominally zero) measures about 0.225 mV
<azonenberg> (also 100x HML 100 ohm just arrived... about time)
<d1b2> <xabean> I don't want to know how much those cost, since that's clearly a digikey packet, and neither the model number nor digikey part number show up on digikey's website.
<azonenberg> xabean: lol, yes
<azonenberg> This was special order from Vishay but they wouldn't sell directly to me, i had to go through a distributor
<azonenberg> so i got to have a chat with the friendly folks in digikey's "non catalog parts" deparmtnet
<d1b2> <xabean> gotta make sure you're not building ICBMs!
<azonenberg> Lol. you can buy a lot of parts on their website far more suitable for missile guidance than these
<azonenberg> anyway, the big problem was that this part is obscure enough Vishay does not produce and stock them routinely
<azonenberg> They're made-to-order only
<azonenberg> as are the 450 ohm version i have coming hopefully tomorrow (alraedy have tracking)
<azonenberg> Minimum order is 100 pieces, and the lead time is... well, i placed the order in February
<azonenberg> and after tax they come out to something like $9 per resistor