sorear changed the topic of #riscv to: RISC-V instruction set architecture | https://riscv.org | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/riscv | Matrix: #riscv:catircservices.org
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<Stat_headcrabed> mps: I'm 100% sure mainline u-boot won't work without nvme drive installed
<Stat_headcrabed> Still reports initcall sequence failed
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<mps> Stat_headcrabed: in my case behavior is opposite. Without nvme drive installed it boots but with it kernel boots but it is stuck probing for nvme
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<muurkha> I am pleased to see that Godbolt's compiler explorer displays relocations in disassembly: https://godbolt.org/z/arxe8o8qz
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<leah2> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37203939 this makes it really hard for me to decide what to get -.-
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<Tenkawa> leah2: the bigger question is that someone needs to ask them: Where do each of these match up in the categories... They obviously aren't apples to apples units to each other for performance specs
<leah2> yes
<Tenkawa> Part of the problem is its so hard to get good comparisons yet
<sorear> ask who?
<leah2> but building gcc is close to my target usage, and the only thing the lpi4a seems to do better in is having more ram and perhaps a vector unit
<leah2> vs able to work with no fan, nvme and being cheaper...
<Tenkawa> sorear: These are like comparing a street car and a purpose tuned car in certain situations... these test cases are not good
<sorear> which test cases?
<leah2> linked in the hn post
<Tenkawa> The various ones in that post and others over the last 2-3 weeks
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<Tenkawa> There needs to be an actual benchmark suite built
<leah2> i think the vf2 is a better deal atm, has more community support behind it too
<Tenkawa> I sure like mine
<leah2> and can be simply bought from amazon
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<Tenkawa> My Star64 is "ok"... but needs more to get it to the VF2's level
<drewfustini> I
<Tenkawa> It has nice performance but the kernel still needs work
<Tenkawa> the VF2
<Tenkawa> is easy to get up to 6.x
<leah2> also vf2 seems to have less fucked boot
<mps> Tenkawa: how long it takes to build kernel on VF2 for you
<mps> with FS on nvme
<Tenkawa> mps: I'd have to run another one.. I usually set it and walk away... I'm also running 2 nodes clustered with ccache
<mps> in my test it takes 2 hours
<Tenkawa> icecc + ccache
<Tenkawa> mine are also trimmed down a lot in the config
<drewfustini> For a RISC-V system without an MMU, I know that Linux supports !MMU for RISC-V which is used on the K210. I am wondering if it is possible for Linux to run in S-Mode, instead of M-Mode, with !MMU. I am thinking S-Mode would be a problem because no virtual memory. Anyone have opinion on that?
<drewfustini> My interest in S-Mode is that I would like to still run SBI firmware in M-Mode and I wasn't sure how that would work if Linux was also in M-ode
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<jrtc27> S-mode can be run MMU-less as much as M-mode; SATP has Bare translation mode
<jrtc27> question is whether you should I guess...
<jrtc27> Linux currently conflates no-MMU and M-mode
<jrtc27> (I mean, I'm of the view that no-MMU shouldn't exist at all, but... :))
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<sorear> CONFIG_RISCV_M_MODE and CONFIG_MMU are separate symbols, although I doubt anyone has tested RISCV_M_MODE=n MMU=n
<sorear> I also am unsure if any existing MMU-less hardware implements S-mode
<drewfustini> Thanks for the insights jrtc27 and sorear ... it sounds like it might make more sense for me to figure out if M-Mode Linux can ECALL into OpensBI
<sorear> that wouldn't work
<jrtc27> huh, didn't know they were separate
<sorear> you can only have one M-mode trap handler and it's either defined by linux or opensbi
<drewfustini> hmm... I'm trying to figure out how the trap-n-emulate functionality already in OpenSBI could be used if Linux is in M-Mode
<drewfustini> ah
<jrtc27> ~~save opensbi's mtvec on entry to linux and jump to that with the right CSR state as needed~~
<drewfustini> interesting
<jrtc27> please don't, all manner of things can go wrong :P
<jrtc27> that's just the cursed option
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<drewfustini> this is just a prototype... the are multiple RV64GC cores without MMU and the desire is to see if possible to boot Linux. The production version would have MMU on the cores.
<sorear> more or less cursed to run linux in U-mode and patch opensbi to emulate priv-1.10?
<drewfustini> interesting idea
<sorear> adding 1.9.1 support to linux might be an option now that everything is already saturated with ALTERNATIVE()s for other vendors
<drewfustini> sorry, I should have said RV64IMC (no atomics) for the prototype. Thus I am interested in trying to see how to still make use of the trap and emulate in OpenSBI
<jrtc27> that's the one that needs an M-mode call to change the translation mode as it lives in mstatus, with satp being sptbr?
<sorear> yes
<jrtc27> the mind boggles as to how that was ever believed to be the right choice
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<sorear> i could say the same thing about the current approach - there's no guarantee that the system will be able to identity-map *any* RAM on Sv39/Sv48
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<sorear> "don't bother with an identity map, load satp, take a page fault, and jump to the next-instruction address in stvec" works but is cursed
<sorear> things would sort of work if kernel addresses were positive! but we have to treat address 0 as a user-space address for OMAGIC a.out compatibility
<jrtc27> that cursed approach is what freebsd does
<sorear> need to support programs that save their state with write(fd, 0, brk(0));
<jrtc27> CHERI doesn't :)
<jrtc27> and brk doesn't exist on FreeBSD/arm64+riscv :)
<jrtc27> come join us in the future :D
<sorear> the cursed approach works significantly less well for turning _off_ paging
<sorear> (is that a requirement for uefi runtime services?)
<heat> uefi RT only requires identity mappings
<heat> and in fact IIRC riscv UEFI requires MMU on
<heat> (the only arch that doesn't require an MMU for EFI is IIRC 32-bit x86)
<sorear> i guess it's expected that you can't do uefi if your RAM doesn't live in 0..2^38 or 0..2^47?
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<heat> yes
<heat> EFI also kinda allocates top-down, so if you have too much memory and not enough lower half address space... yeah, boom
<jrtc27> 32-bit x86 requires an MMU
<jrtc27> how else are you in 32-bit aka protected mode?
<heat> protected mode doesn't require MMU
<jrtc27> I guess if you define MMU to be paging but not segmentation..
<heat> yes
<sorear> i've been interpreting it as "a page table is configured"
<heat> yeah personally i wouldn't really call segmentation MMU, but i guess that's also a valid definition
<jrtc27> on all but x86 there is no segmentation option, so the two are coincident
<jrtc27> 32-bit x86 is the interesting one
<sorear> "mmu" is a chip, not an architectural property, and is really a misnomer for how linux is using it
<sorear> and "requires MMU on" is underspecified if you have several supported memory management modes
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<mps> whenever I see 'P/MMU' word I have hardware in my mind
<gurki> but what about mpu? :3
<gurki> (thats the cut-down version in stm32 you can make boot linux with a royal pita)
<jrtc27> reading http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/80386/231732-001_80386_Hardware_Reference_Manual_1986.pdf it seems clear that the MMU is both segmentation and paging
<mps> segmentation fault?
<mps> divide memory to pages and invoke signal if assigned address is missed
<mps> i.e. page is missed
<mps> I remembered only old concepts, not new ones
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