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<heat> pog
<heat> pog
<heat> pog
<zid> she's dead sorry
<heat> zid: bazinga
<heat> wait wrong person
<zid> ignored for 48 hours
<heat> meh, that'll do
<kaichiuchi> heat: basing?
<kaichiuchi> bazinga*
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<heat> does gcc/clang have an easy way to patch a function call in/out?
<heat> assuming I don't go for just patching the whole thing out on a big, patchable function prologue kind of thing
<zid> If only I hadn't ignored heat so I could answer him
<heat> the first to answer gets my shiny ginola
<zid> -fpatchable-function-entry=n
<zid> depending if you're building a new function at runtime or compiling all functions
<heat> thats exactly what I don't want
<heat> I'd just like a way to call something and say "I may want to nop this out or replace later on"
<zid> That's literally the trivialiest and bestest way to do it, __attribute__ that option onto the function and it'll have some nops you can patch
<zid> unless you describe /why/ you wanna do this so I can suggest something more harebrained
<heat> call certain functions based on certain cpu features being available
<zid> gcc also supports that directly
<heat> or certain command line options being passed, etc
<heat> ifunc needs dynamic linking doesn't it?
<zid> function multiversioning
<bslsk05> ​gcc.gnu.org: Function Multiversioning (Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC))
<heat> yup, this is ifunc
<heat> it's an indirect call that uses dynamic linker magic
<zid> compiles to OFFSET FLAT:_Z7foo()v
<zid> it resolves at link time if you use link time options to select
<heat> yeah, which is not what I want
<zid> You can implement it yourself for runtime trivially?
<heat> it's just an indirect call
<heat> that is trivial
<zid> asm("L: call 0xDEADBEEF"); version more fun ofc
<zid> where you patch L+1 and not just update a ptr
<heat> i dont want indirect calls, I want .text patching
<heat> right, I could do that if I knew how to make asm able to know I'm calling something
<heat> (so it could save the proper registers, etc)
<heat> clobbering everything would also work but is very hardcore
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<heat> ... I could actually do something like this if I still had relocation data
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<demindiro> Just save registers per calling convention no?
<zid> won't work between TUs but I've done it like this before
<zid> you can do math to figure out what 0xd4 means
<zid> can't simulate it because I don't remember the mremap calls I need :P
<heat> demindiro, that's wasteful
<demindiro> How so?
<heat> you don't know how many registers the compiler needs to save, so you save everything.
<demindiro> Not necessary
<zid> someone paste me the mremap calls I need so I can test this on godbolt :P
<demindiro> You tell the compiler what registers you need
<demindiro> And the compiler works around it however necessary
<zid> I assume it runs linux
<heat> hmmmmmm
<heat> actually you may be right
<demindiro> It's how it is in Rust anyways, similar should be possible in C but I can't read their asm crap
<heat> zid, you mean mprotect?
<heat> mprotect((unsigned long) &main & -PAGE_SIZE, 0x1000, PROT_WRITE | PROT_READ | PROT_EXEC) should kinda work in this case I think
<zid> mremap is the exact same thing an interface
<zid> maybe it's a gnu vrsion?
<bslsk05> ​man7.org: mremap(2) - Linux manual page
<heat> hm?
<heat> mremap just expands or shrinks mappings
<zid> takes flags
<zid> I think if you 0x1000 both sides and change the flags, it works? idk
<zid> I'm not a posix nerd
<moon-child> heat: I would probably integrate a disassembler, and find the place where you actually do the call to patch it out
<zid> how does {disp32} syntax work in as
<bslsk05> ​sourceware.org: i386-Mnemonics (Using as)
<zid> it gives no examples and I can't make it take it
<moon-child> https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/gas-2.9.1/html_chapter/as_16.html#SEC203 sez 'Jump instructions are always optimized to use the smallest possible displacements'
<bslsk05> ​ftp.gnu.org: Using as - 80386 Dependent Features
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<epony> "I'm debugging my own debugger with my own debugger and it looks like there is a bug in the other debugger that I am using to debug my own debugger." --W.T.F.^Z
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<snowcra5h> well shit
<snowcra5h> nice
<hmmmm> hello
<snowcra5h> hey hows it going hmmm
<hmmmm> i love to f u
<snowcra5h> ahaha
<moon-child> hmmmm
<hmmmm> snowcra5h and i are going to write an operating system!!
<hmmmm> from scratch
<snowcra5h> hell yeah we are
<moon-child> 🤔
<geist> why i'm reading about this i dunno, but got into reading the netbsd code for the sun-2 mmu
<geist> kinda interesting and terrible
<geist> though it's a 68k machine, the mmu is custom by sun
<snowcra5h> is moon-child mind child ?
<geist> i kinda doubt it
<hmmmm> nope nobody else we both know is here
<snowcra5h> oh
<geist> ah okay
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<gog> bazinga
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<kazinsal> the fuck did I miss
<kaichiuchi> hi
<gog> hi
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<heat> gog, zebra
<heat> i've just updated to android 13, first time I see almost nothing different
<kaichiuchi> no one is here in the office
<heat> some things look slightly rounder, and that's it
<kaichiuchi> you see almost nothing different until it regresses on you
<kaichiuchi> i’m not letting you live this down
<heat> it works fine now stfu
<heat> annoyingly samsung doesn't change the fucking kernel to something newer like one of the GKI stuff
<heat> it's still on 4.18
<heat> I feel absolutely dirty using something this old
<kaichiuchi> :)
<heat> i'd love to see what kind of shit the vendor kernel is pulling
<heat> the GPLv2 parts at least are all open, and a good bit seems to be upstream
<heat> so I don't get why they just don't upgrade
<kaichiuchi> freeRTOS is kinda cool
<kaichiuchi> we use it here and it’s… surprisingly very effective
<kaichiuchi> although for some reason we’re not using LTS versions
<bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git - Linux kernel source tree
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<sham1> Zoop 👉😎👉
<kaichiuchi> operator overloading is kinda fun
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<sham1> Until it isn't, at which point one begins to realise why some people just don't like it
<kaichiuchi> well like anything else, people do stupid things with it
<kaichiuchi> the classic example of where it makes sense though is matrix operations
<gog> kaichiuchi: it's only me and a customer support person today
<kaichiuchi> my boss is here but he doesn’t give a fuck
<kaichiuchi> can’t say i blame him
<gog> the support manager had to go to an appointment and the retail service manager left early to go cover one of our storefronts
<zid> matrix ops isn't even an amazing place to use it, it works fine but it's hardly some amazing magic
<zid> that makes things so much more apparent
<gog> my boss is remote but he's off the rest of the week
<zid> in exchange we get people left shifting for stdout and not being able to detect errors :P
<kaichiuchi> zid: it’s not AMAZING, no
<gog> i just PR'd a feature
<kaichiuchi> nothing that C++ does is revolutionary
<gog> finished it in less than two days because I'm good at my job i guess
<zid> everything it does offer comes with drawbacks, that's the issue :(
<gog> or terrible at it
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<kaichiuchi> i wanna go home and sleep
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<GeDaMo> Sleep where you are :P
<GeDaMo> Unless you're a bus driver :|
<gog> I'm sleepinh
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<heat> kaichiuchi, operator overloading is kind of horrific
<kaichiuchi> for what I’m doing, it’s useful but probably only in this specific case
<kaichiuchi> i’m using it to alias 16-bit arithmetic operations to 2 bytes
<kaichiuchi> because the SM83 CPU has 8 GPRs: B, C, D, E, F (not directly addressable), H, L, A
<kaichiuchi> but you can pair them as BC, DE, HL, AF
<kaichiuchi> and many many instructions rely on those pairs
<kaichiuchi> so if I say reg.bc = 0x1234; that’s actually reg.b = 0x12; reg.c = 0x34;
<kaichiuchi> I can use the 16-bit pair and the individual registers interchangeably
<heat> ah so bc is a RegisterPair that overloads operator=?
<GeDaMo> Z80 derivative?
<kaichiuchi> GeDaMo: yes
<kaichiuchi> heat: yes, and it implicitly converts to uint16_t
<kaichiuchi> so nothing outside of the CPU class has to give two shits
<heat> yeah sgtm
<heat> i'm just scared of stupid operator overloads that don't make much sense or are somehow surprising
<heat> (cough cough <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< cough cough)
<kaichiuchi> you can do this in C with type punning and anonymous structs/unions but as far as I know that’s UB in C++
<heat> not UB in GNU C++
<heat> it's also UB in C, but not in GNU C
<kaichiuchi> yeah still a bit weird
<kaichiuchi> I think ultimately the operator overloading versions might be easier for the compiler to deal with
<kaichiuchi> they’re just functions that will certainly be inlined
<kaichiuchi> there’s no special additional magic that has to happen
<heat> don't forget [[no_unique_address]] then
<heat> kaichiuchi
<kaichiuchi> it brings joy to my heart
<heat> linux is an operating system for people that don't want to do things
<kof123> "cough cough <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< cough cough" really i thought you be in favor of them, what about #pragma RUUUUUUUUUUUST
<kof123> *you would
<heat> actually that explains the lack of new features in android 13, they were too busy rewriting everything in rust
<heat> nullpointerexception bad, unwrap perfect
<heat> that reminds me I do need to fix my rust port
<heat> i'd like to play around with rust in my OS but I don't want to make llvm a dependency for gcc builds :/
<j`ey> gcc suppoprts rust now!
<mjg> rust onyx rewrite when
<Ermine> heat: ST
<Ermine> heat: I've got my android 13 update recently, and now it asks me to reboot it so it can clean up
<Ermine> Also, samsung ui for sleep mode became cringy
<Ermine> Also, samsung still ships some borked Wi-Fi implementation
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<kaichiuchi> just use an iphone like I do
* kaichiuchi holds up the umbrella
<kaichiuchi> i don’t want to start a war but I think some of apple went downhill after jobs died
<kaichiuchi> woz used to come on freenode at one point
<heat> Ermine, hm? why do you say the wifi is borked?
<heat> also what's the problem with sleep mode?
<Ermine> heat: it fails to connect to my home AP in some situations. Other devices do not have such issues afaik
<heat> i've had issues connecting to my 5ghz router but the router is also super borked so I don't know whose fault it is
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<kaichiuchi> i hate my router.
<heat> same
<snowcra5h> your router hates you
<heat> j`ey, i thought it couldn't even compile the core crate?
<heat> i'm no expert but that sounds like it isn't ready lol
<snowcra5h> kaichiuchi: woz actually was on freenode ?
<j`ey> heat: probably what was merged into gcc wasnt much
<kaichiuchi> snowcra5h: for 68k stuff yes
<snowcra5h> Very cool
<snowcra5h> also <3 68k
<Ermine> I tried OpenWRT and there still were some issues with my phone afair
<snowcra5h> For our assembly class in University we learned m68k and wrote a game for the Atari.
<snowcra5h> replaced the operating system TOS
<snowcra5h> it was really fun actually.
<heat> j`ey, using the rustc gcc backend would probably be a better idea but I don't know how far along that i
<heat> s
<j`ey> I guess that's much further along
<sham1> 68k was such a good processor. Hell, I feel that in terms of design it could give even more modern offerings a run for their money
<kaichiuchi> people still use it today
<snowcra5h> Yeah they do.
<kaichiuchi> hell some people still use the 386
<sham1> Yes, in embedded
<kaichiuchi> people still use Z80s
<heat> VAX best architecture
<heat> because of... i dont know, UNIX?
<heat> oh and AT&T syntax
<snowcra5h> I like AT&T syntax
<snowcra5h> more than intel
<sham1> Heresy
<kaichiuchi> indeed
<sham1> You use whatever syntax goes with your processor, god damn it1
<snowcra5h> lol
<kaichiuchi> in our products we use STM32F446
<snowcra5h> Good old arm
<heat> in my product I use the hitachi magic wand
<heat> go figure
<kaichiuchi> the test engineers are still playing with my clang build
<kaichiuchi> they found two issues but fairly minor
<kaichiuchi> that’s one small step for man, one giant leap for LLVM
<snowcra5h> rofl
<sham1> heat: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
<snowcra5h> What do you do for work kaichiuchi ?
<kaichiuchi> ever been to a vending machine and put physical money in it? that particular equipment
<snowcra5h> Very cool.
<kaichiuchi> but before I was a test engineer for die bonding machines
<heat> can you add a free money glitch
<heat> thank
<kaichiuchi> worst job i’ve ever had
<snowcra5h> haha
<snowcra5h> well you have a damn cool job now
<snowcra5h> heat: lol
<kaichiuchi> heat: you don’t want to know man.
<kaichiuchi> heat: ok
<kaichiuchi> wtf is going on with irccloud
<snowcra5h> wtf is irccloud
<heat> irc on the cloud
<snowcra5h> like a shell with BitchX on it ?
<kaichiuchi> there’s a lot of wacky shit we do
<kaichiuchi> at work
<kaichiuchi> I would kill to try and redo this in C++ but I think I’d get shot
<heat> I would shoot you
<snowcra5h> I would load the gun
<snowcra5h> C is bliss.
<heat> if you tried to rewrite it in rust I would cut your genitals out and feed them to your dog
<snowcra5h> lol
<mjg> snowcra5h: heat is a fetishist
<heat> if you tried to write something in C I would cut your genitals out and feed them to your cat
<mjg> that's how he flirts
<heat> tldr don't write anything in languages
<heat> use java
<mjg> use php
<snowcra5h> lol
* kof123 waits for john wick language to revenge heat
<kaichiuchi> you’re in game developer territory
<snowcra5h> java is a nice language some times
<kaichiuchi> god..
<snowcra5h> everything should just be written in c though
<kaichiuchi> okay since irccloud sucks
<snowcra5h> keep it simple
<heat> 3 billion devices run java, why shouldn't you build your stuff on it
<kaichiuchi> there’s a lot of things that C++ would make a little easier for us
<kaichiuchi> HOWEVER
<snowcra5h> java is the bell curve
<snowcra5h> haha
<kaichiuchi> a) we compile with -O0
<sham1> As someone who writes Java at $JOB, how about no
<heat> snowcra5h, the scenes when keeping it simple doesn't work
<kaichiuchi> try doing modern C++ with -O0 when you realize the fancy template magic can’t be used
<snowcra5h> I don't actually mind C++
<sham1> C++ is the epitome of "sufficiently smart compiler" being a requirement
<snowcra5h> Java is a nice language as well to be honest
<snowcra5h> lol
<kaichiuchi> i’ve never used java
<kaichiuchi> never want to
<heat> the scenes when you write shitty C with no out of bounds checks and no sanitizers so your memory management is loosey goosey and then you reinvent reference counts
<sham1> Ew, refcounts
<snowcra5h> kaichiuchi: you just try catch everything
<heat> sham1 only uses RCU exclusively
<kaichiuchi> yeah I don’t like exceptions
<kaichiuchi> never have
<snowcra5h> and threads are magic
<snowcra5h> semaphores
<snowcra5h> wrap everything
<snowcra5h> haha
<snowcra5h> I met James Gosling IRL
<kaichiuchi> I don’t particularly like java because it’s basically FACTORYGENERATOR NEW FILEREADER NEW STRING NEW HEAT NEW RUST
<snowcra5h> yeah
<heat> i bet you wish you had met ryan gosling
<snowcra5h> I thought it was ryan gosling
<snowcra5h> that's why i went
<sham1> Meh, at least now it's a bit shorter because there is finally local type inference
<kaichiuchi> even if it wasn’t for that
<kaichiuchi> the resources it uses is simply untenable
<snowcra5h> well good chat im going to get some work done
<kaichiuchi> from a performance perspective i’ve rarely seen fast java stuff
<snowcra5h> thats not always that true
<kaichiuchi> it exists but you have to really work at it
<snowcra5h> we used java in our datastructures and algorithms class
<snowcra5h> it wasnt really slow
<snowcra5h> Just dont write bad code
<kaichiuchi> robert sedgwick’s algorithms textbooks use java and I hate it
<snowcra5h> haha yeah
<sham1> Java is fast after a while. The problem with benchmarks is that they're not representative of proper workloads
<snowcra5h> ^^
<kaichiuchi> “after a while” is what sucks
<kaichiuchi> never mind the fact it uses 7464674747 MBs of RAM
<kaichiuchi> one Java product that I refuse to give up, and you’d have to pry it from my cold dead hands is CLion
<kaichiuchi> but god, the memory usage
<snowcra5h> total used free shared buff/cache available
<snowcra5h> Mem: 125Gi 5.4Gi 103Gi 432Mi 16Gi 118Gi
<snowcra5h> looks like I can run java
<snowcra5h> apps
<sham1> :D
<snowcra5h> lol
<kaichiuchi> intellij’s products have always been good to me
<snowcra5h> Yeah they are a really good company
<snowcra5h> Id rather just use vim or emacs though
<kaichiuchi> but I would never in a million years write Java
<snowcra5h> the CAFEBABES will be sad =\
<sham1> Consider yourself lucky. I do legacy Java
<snowcra5h> That's actually pretty cool.
<kaichiuchi> yeah i’d rather my cock would just fall off and i’d get fired so i wouldn’t have to deal with that
<snowcra5h> ROFL
<kaichiuchi> at my previous job, the code is essentially 20-30 years old still using MFC and insane crazy horrifically bad C++
<kaichiuchi> no one knew how it compiled or even worked
<kaichiuchi> it just did and we rolled with it
<kaichiuchi> it was upsetting
<kaichiuchi> when all of the old guys retire (who are not useful for their coding, but for “what does the machine do here” since nothing was ever written down), they are going to have a problem
<kaichiuchi> because it would take a separate team months to learn how anything works
<kaichiuchi> the inheritance depth is something like 25 classes in the worst case
<kaichiuchi> A inherits B, B inherits C, C inherits D, … up to 25
<kaichiuchi> and of course when you’d run the software in debug mode it quite literally took over 30 minutes to start
<sham1> I've had to read code like that from outside. Not fun
<kaichiuchi> it’s one of the worst examples of software engineering i’ve ever seen
<kaichiuchi> and the “solutions” people have come up with are substantially worse
<kaichiuchi> jamie zawinski forgive me but I’d start the software from scratch
<kaichiuchi> all of the testing that is supposed to be for a machine accurate to a speck of dust is done manually
<kaichiuchi> the same bugs pop up every new release
<kaichiuchi> they’ve shipped with known showstoppers because they can’t piss off their customer
<kaichiuchi> there was nothing to learn or gain from there in any way, and my new job which is 30 minutes away from that place told me some stories about them that I had no idea
<kaichiuchi> so it wasn’t just me
<kaichiuchi> it was “jesus fuck how is anything even working and how are any of us still alive when it’s nothing but a bag of strings and pulleys”
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<kaichiuchi> i dunno, I could rant all day about it because that type of incompetence at that level of precision is nothing but god laughing uncontrollably
<kaichiuchi> and if that happens there, what do you think goes on under the hood with medical devices?
<bslsk05> ​en.m.wikipedia.org: Therac-25 - Wikipedia
<kaichiuchi> you get blasted with a lethal dose of radiation running out of the treatment room saying you’re on fire
<kaichiuchi> all because the proper controls weren’t in place
<kaichiuchi> ok i’m done you may all speak freely
<heat> kaichiuchi, > CLion
<heat> man, I use vscode
<kaichiuchi> in both cases the underlying software is awful
<kaichiuchi> electron vs java pick your poison
<kaichiuchi> 600MBs for a text editor
<heat> i'm pretty happy with vscode all things considered
<kaichiuchi> suck it
<kaichiuchi> and by “suck it” i mean “who thought web browsers masquerading as native apps” were a good idea?
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<kaichiuchi> 20 years ago you would’ve been laughed off the stage
<kaichiuchi> because, surprise, web browsers do a billion things that you can’t control
<kaichiuchi> and all of them are inefficient for what Discord is, for example
<kaichiuchi> chrome, discord, and CLion are by FAR 99% of my memory usage
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<kaichiuchi> unfortunately though, they work
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<heat> kaichiuchi, but discord sucks and is poorly programmed
<heat> just for the sheer fact that it gratuituously burns CPU even when idle
<kaichiuchi> i don’t believe it would make a difference if it was the best electron app ever devised
<kaichiuchi> it would still be electron
<heat> vscode burns less cpu then discord
<kaichiuchi> yes, I agree
<mrvn> heat: is that discord doing or just the browser. because the browser still does that even without discord
<heat> the browser does not do that, see vscode
<mrvn> heat: firefox does a sync() every 10s always
<mrvn> focus, no focus, not exposed, minimized, always.
<heat> certainly not a sync
<heat> that would be very noticeable
<heat> at most, an fsync()
<gog> let that sync() in
<zid> discord still dealing with the 40 goat gifs you're getting sent per second heat
<mrvn> sorry, yes, fsync. and it is noticeable
<zid> decoding them all to vram so it can pew them to screen
<heat> zid, the goatse previews don't render themselves
<kaichiuchi> a part of me doesn’t understand why browsers use so much RAM to begin with
<heat> aw that's easy
<kaichiuchi> no it isn’t
<heat> 1) you're emulating a full operating system 2) you have like 5 or 10 different interpreters 3) a full interpreter + bytecode VM + jitter 4) a bunch of isolation stuff 5) a full renderer conforming to the 10000000000000000 web specs
<zid> 20MB of javascript source and 200MB of uncompressed images per page
<heat> ^^all of the above needs to be safe and fast btw
<zid> plus it's all so slow you need a cached copy of everything in the current and previous page
<zid> s
<zid> your back button doesn't do a web request
<heat> good point, you also do caching in RAM
<zid> yea IE5's strat of writing shit to disk as cache is just.. a non-option when internet is 100x as fast as rust
<heat> RUST?
<heat> POGGERS
<zid> we have pagefiles for *precisely* that anyway
<mrvn> zid: bullshit. back button is mostly useless because everything is web 2.0+
<zid> everything is 100x as fast as rust
<mrvn> zid: +caching
<zid> Anyway, a browser is routinely the largest and most complex interative software I use
<heat> zid, they do write stuff to disk, but they keep a copy in RAM sometimes
<kaichiuchi> it also doesn’t help that you can write horrible invalid HTML and it will still work albeit with flaws
<zid> even on a 'simple' webpage
<heat> with an LRU thing or whatever
<zid> I'd expect a desktop PC program doing similar stuff to use a few hundred MB
<kaichiuchi> so the browsers are guessing
<heat> kaichiuchi, oh yeah, forgot the infinite compatibility problem
<zid> like, loading front page of reddit is often a few /hundred/ images and web requests
<zid> the web requests all do cookies etc in their headers, those need 32kB buffers each
<zid> the images themselves need the image file + the decompressed rgb
<heat> I think browsers serialize HTTP1.1 connections per subdomain
<zid> if the thumbs are on reddit, you can re-use yea
<zid> http keep-alive
<mrvn> zid: do they? you could decode imasges as they become visible (plus a bit of margin)
<kaichiuchi> i dunno.
<heat> HTTP2 IIRC usually is able to handle a bunch of concurrent connections
<heat> QUIC has even more concurrency (IIRC) and better performance
<kaichiuchi> at work chrome is using 870MB
<zid> okay so nothing
<zid> have you seen the size of my framebuffer
<mrvn> heat: http1.1 has keep-alive and pipeline. They only thing new in 2.0 is that you can interleave data of replies.
<mrvn> heat: out of order replies
<kaichiuchi> teams is using 200MB
<zid> That's like, half a second of fps video :P
<heat> something I have noticed is that the browsers seem to scale their memory usage based on how much RAM you have
<zid> 60*
<kaichiuchi> no it’s not nothing
<zid> Yea it really is
<kaichiuchi> when you start to think nearly 1GB of RAM usage is nothing, problems emerge
<mrvn> kaichiuchi: and then you try running kvm --mem 64
<kaichiuchi> what’s the upper bound where you start to be concerned?
<zid> 1.5MB of that is *just* the minified javascript of the page you're on
<gog> depends on if it's real or VM
<kaichiuchi> when you’re thrashing the ever living shit out of your swap?
<zid> 80MB+ of that is prorgram image
<mats2> teams always sucks
<mrvn> kaichiuchi: I've no swap. :)
<zid> that they only need 700MB to deal with several meg of javascript and images is insane
<kaichiuchi> how much RAM do you have
<gog> 16GB
<mrvn> kaichiuchi: 64GB
<zid> 32 gigglebytes
<kaichiuchi> yeah then you’re fine
<zid> well yea, my machine is from 2011
<zid> I'd hope it's fine
<kaichiuchi> but me, a peasant with 16GB
<mrvn> I'm fine with 2GB too. If you need to actively swap (as in swap in stuff) your system is effectively dead.
<zid> 16GB is also totally fine to burn 870MB on a web browser on
<kaichiuchi> i routinely run out of RAM with just a handful of programs open
<zid> I was on1 6GB until recently
<heat> I have 8GB
<heat> it still works
<mats2> maxed out specs on a current gen x1 carbon and a teams video call lags with just outlook open
<zid> discord routinely uses 4GB by itself, that's 12GB free :P
<kaichiuchi> i hate both of you so much
<mrvn> better to have alloc fail than make the system run at 1HZ
<gog> i run VS, a dozen tabs in firefox including youtube, slack, signal, a bunch of other shit
<heat> swap also works fine
<gog> it works fine
<gog> 8GB wasn't enough because running a full rebuild of the project would start thrashing
<mats2> is the problem even memory pressure
<zid> Fun fact, the vmware-usb-arbitrator.exe service leaks and I often kill it "Just in case" when I notice it using 6GB of ram
<gog> but with 16GB it's fine and i don't page out very much
<kaichiuchi> the next machine I build will probably have 64GB of RAM
<heat> I've seen dwm.exe leak the shit out of itself too
<kaichiuchi> but I’m not doing that for another few years
<zid> I can't even imagine whta to do with 64G of ram without being a build slave
<heat> I think the intel GPU driver had a leak in some releases
<zid> what annoys me is that steam switched to being chrome
<zid> so now *steam* uses a gig of ram
<heat> steam was always chrome
<heat> what do you think steamwebhelper is
<zid> steam now being chrome
<zid> that is not 'always' lol
<kaichiuchi> i honestly kind of like gentoo
<zid> I forget how young heat is
<zid> he thinks always = past 4 years
<zid> I think always = past 25 years
<heat> zid, sorry
<mats2> lol
<kaichiuchi> you are the father
<kaichiuchi> he is the son
<FireFly> I mean steam def predates chrome by a lot :p
<kaichiuchi> and i’m the holy spirit
<zid> Initial releaseSeptember 12, 2003; 19 years ago
<heat> I've started using steam in 2014 and it always had chrome
<zid> it definitely wasn't steam in 2003 :p
<heat> it's not *now* unless you live 8 years ago
<FireFly> I remember green steam :p
<FireFly> now I feel old though
<gog> dang steam looked so much better back then
<zid> those are popular modern games to me
<heat> yup, which you are
<mats2> cute
<heat> green steam is a big LMAO
<FireFly> heat: ;_;
<zid> ark, skylines, don't starve, dirt rally
<zid> those are all like, games from 'idk a year or two ago?'
<FireFly> I mean isn't cities: skylines a lot more modern than that UI?
<heat> I had a moment like that a few days ago
<heat> FireFly, yup
<FireFly> like idk 2017 or something
<heat> I realize total war rome 2 was released in 2013
<mats2> is this pre 2010 steam
<heat> I still remember really wanting that game when it came out
<zid> steam-deck
<gog> cities skylines has been out since 2001
<zid> big-picture stuff
<zid> is the thing that hyper accelerated steam's ram use
<heat> gog, which day? I assume september
<zid> which is 2014 ish
<FireFly> admittedly steam deck is friend though
<gog> the 21st night of september
<zid> before then steam was just running its old ui but inside a thin chromium or whatever
<zid> so it used 80MB instead of the old 20MB
<zid> now they're like "fuck it, infinite scrolling webpages"
<zid> so it uses a gig
<FireFly> does it really use that much..
<heat> the old UI sucked ass
<heat> sorry
<heat> and valve is no stranger to UI war crimes
<heat> csgo's UI was historically flash-based
<zid> sorry, 1.6GB
<kaichiuchi> when you were a fetus
<kaichiuchi> flash was the Thing
<zid> a lot of games are *still* flash based
<heat> kaichiuchi, I used flash you fuggen idiot
<heat> and shockwave
<heat> shockwave was THE SHIT
<heat> that's how I knew it was a good game
<kaichiuchi> god, shockwave
<zid> I remember macromedia shockwave
<kaichiuchi> man you’re gonna make me cry
<zid> GTAV, witcher 3, cs:go, skyrime
<zid> all flash
<kaichiuchi> what?
<kaichiuchi> i don’t believe you
<heat> csgo doesn't have flash anymore
<zid> hitman 3 (2011)
<zid> borderlands 3, xcom 2, fallout 4, world of warships
<gog> remember when youtube was flash
<heat> it got axed by panorama
<zid> yea they've probably done three UI uplifts since I last played it
<zid> but it used it at some point
<zid> kaichiuchi: Ever seen 'SCALEFORM' logo when you boot a game?
<mrvn> My sister installed Sea of Thiefes. 68GB download. yippey.
<sham1> I remember when YouTube was flash. Bad old times
<gog> mrvn: my wife got death stranding when it was free the other day. 67GB lmao
<heat> zid, they did a UI uplift once
<zid> Scaleform GFx allows licensees to create user interfaces using Adobe Flash authoring tools, such as Adobe Flash Professional; the resulting SWF files can be used directly by the GFx libraries, providing similar functionality to the Adobe Flash Player but optimized for use within game engines.
<heat> what do you think develops csgo, not-valve?
<zid> heat: I went through 4 personally
<zid> I assume 3 more is about right given the timescale
<kaichiuchi> jesus christ
<heat> how 4?
<kaichiuchi> that’s sad
<zid> flash is kinda.. exactlyt he right tech for it though
<heat> in terms of technology they switched once, in terms of look they switched like, 3 times
<zid> it's interactive enough that we played *games* on it for years, and it's all svg based
<zid> and the rampant exploits don't matter
<kaichiuchi> yeah but now it’s dead
<zid> so is C89
<heat> old 2013 layout - revamped "classic" layout - 2018 panorama fancy pants shit
<zid> heat: I don't necessarily mean ui backends
<kaichiuchi> unless you’re going to tell me “it’s not dead, my grandma uses it”
<zid> just ui uplifts
<mrvn> zid: but now exploits promise a new flash version because yours is so old
<zid> it wouldn't surprise me if one of the many ui uplifts I've missed included a thing called panorama
<bslsk05> ​'CS:GO's Panorama UI VS Older Versions' by 3kliksphilip (00:14:34)
<sham1> C99+ or riot
<heat> panorama is the only non-scaleform one
<Ermine> heat: it definitely isn't
<heat> Ermine, did the older ones not use scaleform?
<kaichiuchi> for new projects I have no idea why you’d want to use C89
<kaichiuchi> unless you must be compatible with an ancient compiler
<zid> It's flawless
<Ermine> heat: I meant c89
<heat> oh right lol
<heat> absolutely
<kaichiuchi> zid: you’re me, but a serious me
<heat> c89 best language ever
<zid> go ship something in rust, 3 days later it'll stop compiling due to a nightly change
<heat> it still reeks of shitty compiler
<heat> zid, that's on you for using nightly
<kaichiuchi> me: i love retro stuff, I want to experiment and make something work on retro stuff
<zid> My C89 still builds and is still faster than anything else
<zid> so what would I change to? Something that will break, and be slower?
<zid> Okay.jpg
<kaichiuchi> you: i want to live in the 80s, i really mean it
<heat> ok but srsly, in modern terms C89 really sucks
<kaichiuchi> yes of course it does
<sham1> Doesn't even have constant-width integers
<sham1> A must-have for embedded and osdev
<heat> the standard library is super lackluster, it still has all the decl-code crazyness, no constant-width shit, no atomics, no defined memory model, no threads
<heat> still has gets!!
<sham1> IIRC gets was already deprecated in C89. At least in C99, and C11 just removed it wholesale
<zid> You know what else sucks? literally everything else
<Ermine> I use skalibs instead of standard library stuff when applicable.
<kaichiuchi> C99 is just fine
<zid> but now you have lots of fun issues like: -Og is too slow to be usable (hi C++), it's impossible to package (hi python), etc, etc, etc
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<zid> C89 is the lowest common denominator and *still* better
<kaichiuchi> yeah I have to agree with the C++ comment
<heat> erm what?
<heat> Og works fine
<zid> it was his rant from the other day
<kaichiuchi> only on gcc if you’re lucky
<Ermine> what about gOg?
<zid> std::move is a mess of templates that Og doesn't compile well
<zid> or something
<heat> which is O0
<kaichiuchi> not anymore
<kaichiuchi> clang fixed that
<sham1> I'd still rather C99 than C89. C89 is fine enough, but I'd rather C99. Well really I'd C2023, but that's not a thing yet
<zid> Og is not O0 in theory it's just "don't do annoying optimizations that remove vars"
<heat> python is literally the easiest to package, see pip
<heat> the problem was with O0
<heat> not Og
<heat> Og works
<zid> sham1: I do use C99 if I see a good use for it, mainly designated initializers
<kaichiuchi> game developers often use MSVC
<heat> (clang actually doesn't have Og, they just pretend it does)
<zid> so that I don't have to do 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, /* 8 */ 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, /* 16 */
<zid> I can just do [38] = 3
<kaichiuchi> yeah it’s -O1 on clang
<zid> I use C11 on super rare occasions for anonymous unions
<zid> C23 I can't imagine using anything from, yet
<heat> C23 has portable time
<kaichiuchi> debug performance with C++ is a problem if and only if you’re under serious time constraints (like games) or you have space issues
<zid> maybe something will catch my interest
<sham1> Designated initializers are good
<zid> I don't use time
<sham1> C23 has binary literals, which has been a long time coming
<zid> sham1: also compound literals
<sham1> Also, C23 apparently might have stuff for macros, like __VA_OPT__ to handle variadic macros in a nice manner
<sham1> Also typeof, so we can get one step closer to standards-compliant container_of
<kaichiuchi> what’s that do over __VA_ARGS__?
<zid> what is that weird unicode you keep typing
<sham1> __VA_OPT__ is a functional macro that expands to its argument iff the variadic argument was passed
<kaichiuchi> me?
<sham1> Me?
<zid> it looks like line noise, yes you sham
<sham1> Hum
<kaichiuchi> looks fine
<gog> gOg
<zid> I blame matrix
<sham1> Might be the Matrix bridge screwing up
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<heat> sham1, yeah VA_OPT is nice, before that this Just Work but it's a GNU C extension
<zid> yea see how those things are hilighted?
<sham1> heat: yeah, now it's standardised
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<zid> He's sending garbage to do that that only other weird clients understand
<sham1> They're just backticks
<zid> they are not backticks
<kaichiuchi> you mean like code blocks?
<kaichiuchi> supported by everywhere?
<sham1> What does it look on your screen
<zid> it's some kind of left arrow
<heat> kaichiuchi, not supported here either
<kaichiuchi> what the fuck are you guys doing
<zid> looks ◄
<kaichiuchi> using irssi 1.0?
<zid> like 0x11 in CP-437
<sham1> Take a screenie
<zid> oh god it literally is
<heat> this is on hexchat
<zid> I sent it in unicode so it might render right?
<kaichiuchi> oh my
<zid> the only escape irc has is \x1
<kaichiuchi> yes your arrow rendered for me
<zid> no \x11
<bslsk05> ​modern.ircdocs.horse: IRC Formatting
<GeDaMo> "Monospace ASCII 0x11 "
<gog> my client handled it right
<sham1> I can't see anything out of the ordinary
<kaichiuchi> fun fact
<zid> are libera clients required to support 'ircdocs'?
<zid> whatever the fuck that is
<heat> sham1, dont you see the 0011 thingies
<kaichiuchi> a long time ago people could trigger modem resets with a malformed CTCP request
<sham1> heat: no
<heat> in my screenshot
<zid> malformed anything, kaichiuchi
<zid> doing it over irc was just popular
<zid> there was a new one semi-recently
<sham1> I can't see no screenshot
<zid> where you sent people virustotal example trigger strings
<sham1> No link, no nothing
<zid> and their AV would disconnect them
<GeDaMo> I think it's possible to disable formatting codes on a channel
<heat> sham1, the fuck?
<sham1> Ah
<epony> it's called curseshot
<kaichiuchi> ah neat
<sham1> Yeah, your client doesn't support modern IRC stuff
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<zid> -c used to disable colour
<kaichiuchi> use quassel
<zid> or +c maybe
<epony> like 80ies technology called graphics frame buffer
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<zid> Let's test this out
<kaichiuchi> the monolithic client
<zid> hahaha
<zid> [18:58] #osdev Cannot send to nick/channel
<zid> the ircd literally stops you doing it
<zid> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}
<zid> Okay so both halves work, can't send the entire thing though
<sham1> Of course if I type VA_OPT, it'll probably show up weirdly
<sham1> Or does it
<sham1> Hm
<kaichiuchi> that’s bold for me
<sham1> Ah yes
<zid> yea that's normal bold escape from original irc
<heat> yeah thats bold
<zid> not ircdocs or whatever libera has apparently adopted
<FireFly> hm
<heat> idk man is quassel good?
<sham1> I typed the normal double-undescroes there
<heat> I've used hexchat for all my irc life
<zid> yea it translated them to the right escape for irc
<FireFly> zid: the escapes are purely a client-side thing
<zid> idk if that actually sends
<mrvn> kaichiuchi: +++
<FireFly> (modulo the +c stripping tthem ig)
<zid> FireFly: yea but we standardized on some 40 years ago
<FireFly> yes but I'm just saying "libera has apparently adopted" makes no sense
<zid> people are apparently reinventing them and this is news to me
<sham1> Now we're standardising even more
<zid> FireFly: No check the link
<FireFly> yes?
<kaichiuchi> quassel is the only sane IRC client for linux i’ve ever used
<zid> FireFly: it's ran out of a libera channel and seems officialish
<sham1> Most of the ones in ircdocs are the old mIRC escapes
<sham1> It's just that there are new ones there
<kaichiuchi> on windows and mac it looks AWFUL
<FireFly> oh you mean like that
<heat> kaichiuchi, i mean, hexchat Just Works in my case
* FireFly shrugs
<zid> I've also never seen matrix do it on another network, so the client may even have a whitelist to send them to libera
<zid> but I don't hang out on other networks much anymore
<zid> so that might be made up
<kaichiuchi> you’re on KDE?
<heat> yes
<FireFly> but yeah I don't think a monospace formatting char is particularly widely supported
<zid> kaichiuchi: just fyi, you send weird unicode instead of apostrophes
<kaichiuchi> pull quassel-monolithic
<kaichiuchi> zid: that’s sad
<FireFly> 0x11 is.. ^Q ? weird choice for monospace
<heat> he also sends the unicode ... instead of ...
<zid> is there a name for doing that, automagicquotes
<kaichiuchi> no
<sham1> `test`
<zid> I can't stand magicquotes
<heat> I think his client just magics-everything
<sham1> Is that backticks
<zid> yes
<GeDaMo> Smartquotes?
<sham1> Alright, I suppose I'll turn off markdown here
<kaichiuchi> can we just agree that IRC is a mess
<zid> no, we can agree that web idiots are a mess
<zid> and think they can just inject shit into 40 year old protocols
<kaichiuchi> yes
<kaichiuchi> that’s where I was getting at
<FireFly> nohting wrong with unicode though? o.o
<heat> the only thing you can inject is heroin right into my vains
<sham1> kaichiuchi: yes. We should just use Matrix
<kaichiuchi> no we shouldn’t
<zid> unicode is fine, replacing ascii with unicode alternatives is bad
<heat> matrix sucks
<zid> that's called zalgotext :P
<kaichiuchi> i can count on one hand the number of things you think are fine zid
<FireFly> lol
<heat> he's the standard-issue opinionated #osdev user
<mrvn> kaichiuchi: do you need more than 1 finger?
<zid> I am a bastion of rationality, and I stand for my beliefs
<sham1> heat: as mandated by the POSIX spec
<zid> Most forward progress in tech has been a backwards slide in usefulness.
<mrvn> zid is fine, not zid is not fine :)
<kaichiuchi> mrvn: nope
<heat> the only thing I stand for is when shelnut makes a bazinga joke
<zid> haha ofc perl has a module for this on cpan
<bslsk05> ​metacpan.org: Unicode::Homoglyph::Replace - replace homoglyphs with their ASCII lookalike equivalents - metacpan.org
<zid> Because people try to use it to bypass filters, constantly
<sham1> It wouldn't be a thing in existence without a thing to handle it in CPAN
<FireFly> something something transliteration
<zid> "no my name isn't zid it's zid but the i is a turkish i, the z is actually a kanji, and the d is a p with an upside down modifier"
<zid> "trcmp failed"
<FireFly> just use ii and pipe lines through iconv *nod*
<zid> strcmp*
<sham1> Just standardise on UTF-8
<sham1> No need to iconv then
<FireFly> apparently proper unicode punctuation annoys people here :p
<zid> I've still yet to find a 'safe subset' of utf-8 implemented anywhere
<mrvn> sham1: my homedir is a non utf-8 valid 8-bit string. :)
<sham1> mrvn: disgusting
<zid> no greek question marks, or zalgo text, but allow 'normal' looking text
<heat> 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
<zid> think like, web-safe colours
<zid> but for unicode
<sham1> > web-safe colours
<mrvn> heat: repetitive
<sham1> WHAT YEAR IS IT!?
<FireFly> zid: I think that's called ASCII
<mrvn> sham1: the year of the possum
<kaichiuchi> heat: quassel?
<zid> FireFly: Idk, I don't mind katakana
<zid> and ascii itself isn't all safe
<sham1> 🤣🤣🤣
<FireFly> well who's the arbiter to make these arbitrary decisions?
<gog> stricoll gang
<heat> swear to god😹😹😹 this is 😹😹😹 the best 😹😹😹 big 👏 bang 👏 theory 👏 episode 😹😹😹😹😹😹
<FireFly> whose scripts are in and whose are out? :p
<zid> FireFly: I mean, anything is better than nothing tbh
<kaichiuchi> 🤯
<FireFly> but ye I think ASCII is the closest to "web-safe colours" for charsets
<FireFly> well printable ASCII range
<heat> kaichiuchi, no i'm on hexchat still
<zid> I want web-safe unicod
<zid> I already have ascii safe ascii
<kaichiuchi> well stop it
<heat> what kind of shitty client doesn't support emojis
<sham1> ^
<zid> heat: mine supports it, but I just don't have it in my font
<sham1> What kind of shitty font doesn't support emojis
<zid> why the fuck would I have monospaced bitmap emoji
<kaichiuchi> emojis on IRC feel unnatural
<heat> @zid I want an IRC client that tags on @<username>
<zid> ☺
<zid> Is the only one I have
<sham1> @heat yes
<zid> Cus it's from cp-437
<zid> The one true encoding
<heat> oh yeah did I mention I use emojis IRL 😹😹😹 NORMIE MOMENT 😹😹😹 😹😹😹 😹😹😹 😹😹😹 😹😹😹
<zid> ☺Ü`.`.'`.`'╬ as we all know, that's a dwarf with a wheelbarrow walking towards a door
<sham1> We're not having !!FUN!! enough for ths
<zid> kaichiuchi: yea that isn't what I sent
<zid> your client up-raped it
<zid> I sent \x1
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<kaichiuchi> i don’t care i find that image hilarious
<zid> (which I converted to 0x263A)
<bslsk05> ​www.fileformat.info: Unicode Character 'WHITE SMILING FACE' (U+263A)
<zid> image there is what it should look like
<sham1> Now I wonder how reactions look when bridged to IRC
<epony> did your momma tell you not to play with your doll dresses?
<kaichiuchi> that emote is antithetical to your being
<zid> ☻
<zid> does that turn into a black dude
<kaichiuchi> no
<sham1> yes
<zid> WHAT
<kaichiuchi> that’s a white smiley face
<demindiro> ‮this should be reversed
<zid> kaichiuchi wtf is wrong with your client
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<sham1> My client showed the earlier as a white big face and this is a small black face
<bslsk05> ​www.compart.com: “☻” U+263B Black Smiling Face Unicode Character
<mrvn> zid: now write it right to left with a white taint.
<zid> That's character '2' from the IBM PC
<mrvn> just for fun
<zid> okay so it only bothers to translate 1 and not 2
<zid> lazy
<heat> fuck irc
<heat> use email
<heat> Cc: all@osdev.org
<demindiro> I prefer megaphones
<sham1> MATRIX
<zid> A♠5♠7♠ Has anybody got any 3s?
<mrvn> zid: go fish
<zid> sham1: looks like filter evading unicode, what is it?
<zid> oh, full width kata?
<sham1> Full-width latin text
<sham1> Yes
<sham1> It's exemplary
<zid> Yea I had no idea that's what my client rendered it like
<demindiro> Do people hear bells?
<mrvn> lokes L I K E T H I S, sort of
<zid> BELLSの
<zid> i can't remember how to fix whatever hotkey I中stひt
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<zid> I naka st hi t, you heard me
<zid> テスト
<sham1> Do you hear the people sing!? Singing the song of the angry people
<epony> like 2½ men singing 'fag fag fag fag faaag'
<sham1> This channel has devolved to… whatever this is
<kaichiuchi> careful epony
<zid> sham1: unicode elipse8ipses!
<zid> die heathen!
* zid throws poo
<sham1> Just for you ❤️
<gog> meow
<heat> 【operating systems development】
<zid> that's nice, we have the proper character, and then the emoji that I can't render
<sham1> Now I need to figure out how to do smart quotes with Compose-key
<zid> maybe you should do ...…
<Ermine> heat: this should be included into the topic
<sham1> And/or figure out good hotkeys for those
<sham1> Just for the benefit of zid
<zid> sham1: boot up the layout editor
<zid> add them all to your regular keys, replace the ascii ones
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you?
<gog> yes
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
<sham1> Of course I can always just use the LaTeX ``convention''
<zid> I'd tell Ermine not to flirt so much but I've been doing it with sham1 all day
<epony> random predicktion of the day: you shall have kids.. who bark
<gog> bork
<Ermine> zid: if I could I'd bring more value to this chat
<gog> börk
<kaichiuchi> Ermine: i keep reading you as ermac
<Ermine> ermacs
<demindiro> ewmacs
<sham1> “Flirting”
<zid> sham1: perfect, my skin is crawling
<zid> love you bab
<kaichiuchi> ermac is a character in mortal kombat
<epony> the manliest teditor of them all: emasc
<kaichiuchi> and my favorite one
<gog> uwumacs
<zid> heat are you cis?
<kaichiuchi> because people reverse engineered MK and thought ERMAC was a hidden character
<kaichiuchi> but was short for “ERROR MACRO”
<heat> zid, yes
<zid> Makes sense, you're portogeese, I am european.
<sham1> ₫
<heat> eastern yurop stron
<sham1> The dong sign
<heat> sham1, 𓂸
<heat> the dong sign
<zid> if anybody wants a table of what is acceptable over irc
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Code page 437 - Wikipedia
<heat> zid, 𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸
<demindiro> wat
<zid> wow what are those heat
<heat> omg 𓂺
<gog> iso 8859ö1
<heat> 𓂺𓂺𓂺
<zid> even my browser doesn't have those
<demindiro> Why is that a thing
<kaichiuchi> holy shit
<heat> 𓂺 penis, phallus with emission | EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053
<kaichiuchi> i can’t breathe
<zid> The first result is urban dictionary
<zid> instead of unicode explorer
<sham1> ſham
<zid> Okay found a render
<sham1> They're brilliant
<sham1> Of course, there are other things to also write with Compose
<zid> I wonder why heat knows about them
<sham1> Like “☭”
<zid> which life experience you'd need for it to be common
<heat> 𓂺
<zid> maybe some kind of subculture
<heat> baz𓂺nga
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<epony> emperors of da ming le quinq and ze tung dynasties walk into a bar..
<epony> ..in ther new clothes
<sham1> Anyway, fun's over, time to write some code
<epony> rule #1 of the new code: don't eat yellow snow
<mrvn> sham1: that even renders
<mrvn> sham1: compose female, rocket ship and dark skin
<sham1> What, the hammer&sickle?
<mrvn> sham1: yes
<kaichiuchi> hey does someone wanna buy a house for me
<kaichiuchi> thanks
<kaichiuchi> <3
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: One red paperclip - Wikipedia
<GeDaMo> "traded his way from a single red paperclip to a house"
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<kaichiuchi> that’s pretty neat
<epony> that's what skyscrapers are built with: paper clips.. their only weakness, paper planes
<gog> what about paper jet fuel
<mrvn> "On or about January 7, 2006, he traded the second spot on the Yahk trip for a box truck." So what hapened to the first spot?
<mrvn> He should have used a green paper clip, much bigger house.
<Ermine> heat: to reiterate about EFI a little: is it hard to do EFI without posix-efi/gnu-efi? IIUC I need to hardcode some table adresses and make some frapper functions and instruct linker to do the right thing.
<Ermine> Assuming that I'm going to use clang
<zid> I'm tempted t make an uefi binary
<zid> using --output-format=binary and lots of .dword
<zid> like I do for gameboy and playstation and stuff
<Ermine> and maybe specifying entry point
<zid> entry point not required, it's in a field in the PE header
<zid> so it'll just be .dword _start somewhere
<zid> (same for all object formats, really)
<Ermine> But I guess this _start part should be written in assembly (and call C entry point)
<mrvn> Ermine: has to be, you have to at least set the stack pointer
<mrvn> Ermine: zeroing .bss from C is tricky but possible
<Ermine> fair enough
<zid> yea unless EFI gives you a valid C environment to begin with? it might idk
<mrvn> so usually you do set the stack and zero .bss in asm and then jump to C.
<gog> it does
<zid> _start for sysv for example needs to convert between stack and registers for main's args
<Ermine> I need to read spec for this :D
<zid> and someone needs to zero all your `static`s
<zid> either the host or _start
<gog> when the firmware loads your image on x64 you have at least 64KiB of stack
<mrvn> gog: does EFI even call _start?
<gog> it reads the PE for the entry point
<zid> does eif main take args? are they set up as per the C abi?
<gog> it's ms_abi
<zid> means nothing to me
<zid> C and sysv ABIs are different, as above, so _start has work to do
<zid> you can't make main() your entry point
<zid> efi land is fully unknown to me
<gog> efi entry point wants two args, EFI_HANDLE in rdx and EFI_SYSTEM_TABLE in uhhh
<gog> i can't remember
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<gog> whichever the second param goes into in x64 msabi
<gog> or is it rsi rdx
<gog> whatever
<zid> right but all that matters is whether it matches or not
<zid> not specifically what it is
<gog> gnu-efi has a _start and it's the entry point and it'll convert from msabi to sysv
<zid> right I'd have the same issue eh, cus I'd be using stock gcc and .asm header files for the PE stuff
<gog> but it doesn't match, msabi is rcx and rdx, sysv is rdi and rsi
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<sham1> Of course GNU would turn to its preferred calling convo
<zid> right but sysv doesn't even match *itself*
<zid> I don't know if you can do msabi main and have it replace start
<zid> sysv has entirely different calling convention for _start and C
<Ermine> gnu-efi has uefi_call_wrapper function
<gog> it's not strictly necessary
<Ermine> I guess it is for calling convention stuff
<zid> calling convention stuff catches me out on windows all the time
<gog> if your compiler isn't trash you can just declare anything that needs to be called by the firmware as EFIAPI
<zid> I constantly forget to mark my opengl functions as cdecl or whatever
<zid> normal imports are fastcall, dll imports are cdecl, or something
<gog> everything else can be cdecl
<Ermine> gog: I'm going to use cross clang
<gog> i recommend that path
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<gog> although
<zid> I don't even know how to boot an efi program
<zid> I've literally never used it
<gog> debugging is easier with gnu-efi and qemu
<gog> because you can just use gdb
<gog> clang wont' generate dwarf symbols in PE mode
<gog> afaik
<zid> you could splitdebug it?
<gog> it does generate pdb symbols
<gog> but i didn't dig too deep on how to use them
<gog> or if it's even possible
<zid> I splitdebug on playstation
<zid> as there's no point putting the debug symbols inside the .exe
<Ermine> So time for WinDbg?
<gog> it doesn't even generate dwarf symbols though
<gog> it generates a split pdb
<zid> (I compile twice)
<gog> gross
<zid> And by 'compile twice' I mean 'objcopy -j.text debug.elf out.exe'
<gog> oh right
<zid> { .text : { .text .data .rodata .bss }; .debug : { ... } }
<gog> yeah that's how i did it when i was using gnu-efi
<zid> that's the outer ELF with dwarf symbols, dump the .text to get the inner EXE
<zid> without them
<zid> `file` the ELF in gdb so it loads the symbols
<zid> connect to the running exe
<gog> yes
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<Ermine> Ok, thank you people! <3
<gog> :3
<sham1> E:
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<mats2> adorbs
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<heat> Ermine, hi, EFI CEO here
<heat> kinda hard, kinda not hard
<heat> with clang being able to make PEs natively, it's ezpz
<heat> if you had to objcopy it becomes a lot worse as you either need a thunk to relocate yourself (gnu-efi route) or translate relocations to PE (edk2 method)
<clever> heat: what about using a cross-gcc, similar to the mingw32 one?
<clever> gcc can clearly create x84(-64) PE executables
<clever> its just a matter of having a build of gcc that is both PE and baremetal
<clever> and has the right ABI
<clever> the lack of recommendations for that seems weird
<mrvn> clever: wasn't the issue about including DWARF infos in the binary?
<clever> what with baremetal .bin and .elf kernel guides, always stressing the fact that you need the right cross-compiler, and to not use a gcc expecting a libc
<clever> and then efi guides just abusing objcopy to mutate the build product
<clever> mrvn: ah, about a lack of debug info in pe files?
<mrvn> clever: you can use a hosted gcc if you specify all the right flags to turn that hosted gcc into a freestanding one. But forget any one of a number of flags and you get funny results, errors and warnings. So for begginers it's best to give them a fresstanding compiler that can't have those troubles.
<mrvn> (just FYI)
<clever> yep
<clever> and it seems like using the wrong gcc, and then forcing it with objcopy or a relocation thunk, seems just as error prone?
<mrvn> the only reason you should use objcopy is to turn your 64bit kernel into a 32bit file for x86 multiboot and to turn your ELF into a BIN for embedded / ARM systems that don't like ELF.
<clever> yeah, those options seem viable
<mrvn> if you want to relocate then why not use the linker (via the compiler preferably)
<clever> but abusing it to turn an elf into a pe, just seems like a recipe for problems
<mrvn> I bet there are lots of ELF features PE doesn't have and vice versa.
<heat> clever, sure, you can do that, but clang is much handier
<clever> more so, because clang is multi-target at runtime?
<mrvn> e.g. do the relocation types even match?
<heat> yes
<heat> who tf has a mingw toolchain? not many people
<mrvn> By the way: Why do you have an objcopy tht creates PE but no compiler?
<heat> clang can compile your elf kernel, and your PE EFI bootloader, etc
<heat> because ld can have multiple target emuls
<heat> gcc can0t
<heat> 't
<mrvn> You are supposed to build a cross-binutils and not use binutils-multiarch.
<clever> and clang/llvm just never had that limitation?
<heat> every clang can build for $ENABLED_ARCHITECTURES for every target it supports, every lld can link every file format
<mrvn> so you have already left the supported path. go and enjoy the wilderness.
<heat> mrvn, ah yes, 2 cross-toolchains
<mrvn> heat: yep.
<zid> why not six!?
<clever> heat: so just enable all arches, and you have a silver bullet that can do anything!
<heat> what's "the supported path"?
<heat> clever, yup. pretty much. the only problem you'll have is that you'll need to compile your runtimes for the targets
<heat> but that's doable
<mrvn> zid: x86, x86_64, x86_32, mips, mipsel, mips64, mipsel64, arm, aarch64, aarch64_32 or whatever the X32 one is called on ARM
<clever> ive had similar problems with gcc before
<clever> libgcc was built for armv7 in arm mode, but not thumb mode
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<heat> if I enable X86 on my clang, it can build x86_64-onyx, x86_64-linux-gnu, x86_64-fuchsia, etc
<clever> so while gcc and ld where happily generating thumb code for me
<clever> it linked an arm only libgcc
<clever> and then faulted at runtime
<mrvn> zid: add to that ARMv5/6 softfloat, ARMv6 hardfloat, ARMv7 neon
<mrvn> zid: you easily can end up with 20 gcc or more.
<raggi> gcc makes you cross
<clever> mrvn: at least for the entire arm32 family (soft/hard, thumb/arm), it seems to be under the multi-lib flag
<clever> where you have a dozen libgcc's, and the linker picks the best one for the current flags
<clever> and gcc can do all combinations
<heat> I find it kind of silly how llvm doesn't pull some crazy stuff with llvm bytecode and compiler_rt
<mrvn> How much of the gcc cross madness is rooted in the build system and backend? The frontend is always the same right? The middle end should be identical too, right? Just the codegen and file format part differs?
<heat> the frontend is not always the same
<raggi> it's the linux tradition. build on the same machine you install onto.
<mrvn> clever: but try setting up some multilib config for your needs. It's an absolute nightmare to configure.
<heat> every target can customize the frontend and add extra flags, etc
<heat> some targets default PIE for instance
<heat> (or link extra libraries, etc)
<mrvn> heat: sure. But that doesn't really change anything how g++ parses c++ source into the intermediate format
<mrvn> basically just passes those options to the backend
<clever> mrvn: checking an old PR i never finished, it was just --with-multilib-list=rmprofile when building gcc
<heat> gcc itself is an absolute nightmare to configure
<heat> it's all just a bunch of gcc-foo that people just copy around
<heat> shell script switchs that include other files and those files do things and then they're all included for a target and shit
<heat> madness
<heat> llvm has the opposite problem, ez to configure as a target developer, completely maddening to build as a user
<mrvn> heat: don't forget M4 mactos
<mrvn> macros
<clever> the only time ive needed a configure step, was when targeting windows+mac+linux
<clever> any time i target only linux, ive been able to build purely with just make and nothing else
<heat> i can't stress enough how hard it is to figure out how to build a fucking LLVM toolchain
<heat> I basically stole fuchsia's stuff
<clever> ive even got one makefile+library that can build for 3 different scenarios, baremetal arm, linux arm, and baremetal vpu
<mrvn> clever: yeah, building clang is easy, my problem is my kernel doesn't support using clang.
<clever> and it can do MMIO in all of them
<heat> I don't have enough years to live to figure that out all on my own
<clever> heat: i still have yet to look into the vpu llvm fork
<heat> oh and you also need to write non-trivial amounts of C++ for your toolchain, much of which is just bespoke shit that you need
<heat> so you....... END UP COPYING THINGS
* heat sighs
<heat> i hate everything
<heat> also half my fights with GNU software is fighting with libtool
<heat> fuck libtool
<clever> i'm a bit rusty, does llvm-ir have a set number of registers, or infinite virtual registers?
<clever> does the IR->native step involve register allocation and dealing with spill-over into the stack?
<mrvn> well, rust is the future. well done.
<sham1> Rust is the future. Libtool is the past
<clever> > What makes LLVM so compelling is it lets us write our assembly-like IR as if we had an infinite number of CPU registers and abstracts away the register allocation and instruction selection.
<heat> libtool will never leave us
<clever> ah, this blog i read before answers my Q
<heat> i'll be 97 in my nursing home waiting for my grandchildren to call me and libtool will still be a fucking thing
<zid> that has a name but I forget what it is
<mrvn> clever: and yet the compiler then turns that into a stack machine with no register and then eliminates memory (stack) operations by turning that back into real registers.
<mrvn> WTF?
<clever> heat: what does libtool even do?
<heat> clever, link and compile things
<clever> thats what ld and gcc are for! lol
<heat> libtool supposedly helps
<clever> mrvn: lol
<clever> mrvn: do all llvm backends do that, or just some?
<heat> it also creates a bunch of parasite .la files that don't support sysroots for some reason
<mrvn> clever: don't ask me.
<heat> it is, of course, copied around the autotools projects
<heat> with an inconsistent path and format (sometimes an m4, other times a shell script)
<heat> I need to hack it open to tell it that yes, my system supports shared libraries
<raggi> libtool does hardly anything, it just attempts to hide shitty loader configs and shitty linker configs behind a facade that pretends loading and linking aren't a total disaster in the linux ecosystem
<raggi> if it ceased to exist, things would improve fast
<mrvn> and decades old systems that have tiny limits
<raggi> right "a pile of things you probably don't care about"
<mrvn> A lot of GNU problems would go away if you throw out legacy stuff
<mrvn> At some point you just have to stop caring.
<raggi> there is part of me that appreciates "portability" in the old sense of "keep all the dead shit alive", but there's another part of me that has _tried to use this stuff_ with old machines and seeing that it's all rotting, meanwhile debugging 10kloc more m4 all the time makes me rage
<heat> it wouldn't be so bad if this was all centralized
<raggi> the archives of it should probably stick around somewhere, we can use those for building old targets
<heat> and not copied around
<raggi> but for building new targets, don't want anymore
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<heat> GNU making autotools a glorified shell script generated by shell scripts using like two meta-languages was the most horrific mistake they made
<mrvn> raggi: it's still designed for systems where you don't have autotools. So the autotools generated files have to be included.
<epony> m4 is about half of m8
<heat> I say this often, but I really like meson
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<heat> the language is clean and makes sense, if you want cross-compilation you just use a simple spec file, the interpreter is centralized and if you need to patch things you can just patch them once
<mrvn> Buildtime: autotools 5 minutes, C source 30 seconds, linking 10s.
<mrvn> jippey
<epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_(computer_language) "Most users require m4 as a dependency of GNU autoconf."
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: m4 (computer language) - Wikipedia
<heat> one day I'll take whatever the original BSD people took when they were writing code, and I'll try some autotools for my own projects
<sham1> Don't
<sham1> Autotools is literal hell
<sham1> Like literally
<sham1> It will be fire and brimstone everywhere
<heat> dont worry I'll be on a mix of crack and LSD, I won't feel anything
<epony> it's very simple
<immibis_> autotools is basically macros to write configure scripts, right?
<immibis_> and configure scripts are to auto-detect which of your 500 supported platforms you are trying to build the software on
<heat> yeah, i guess
<immibis_> so if you don't support 500 platforms you don't need it
<epony> you need a tool like it
<heat> yes
<epony> and you will inevitably invent it, with a simple and incoplete design
<heat> but afaik the 500 platforms part isn't opt-in
<immibis_> heat: I read that it had to be a macro language because there were too many differences between shells to use features like functions
<heat> I don't want it as a shell script at all
<epony> macros come from earlier developments in programming
<heat> I would like an interpreted language like meson is
<epony> that's just replacing perl with python
<epony> nothing more
<immibis_> then your users have to install meson
<heat> sure, and That's Fine
<epony> (and losing some 25-30 years waiting for python and its rewrites)
<heat> the users also need to install make, make isn't a poorly cobbled together set of macros and shell scripts
<heat> it could've been, but the old UNIX geezers were better than that
<epony> back then, there was not even perl
<epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_(software)#Origin "It was originally created by Stuart Feldman in April 1976 at Bell Labs. Feldman received the 2003 ACM Software System Award for the authoring of this widespread tool." --30 years to grasp the importance
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Make (software) - Wikipedia
<jimbzy> Make? Never heard of it...
<epony> makemake laughs at you
<mrvn> *sing* make, make, make a make, make a make you made....
<Ermine> heat: thank you re EFI
<epony> makemake inserts the buildsystem into taketake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haua
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Haua - Wikipedia
<Ermine> skarnet just written its build system for his software
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