klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<kaichiuchi> hi kids
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<bslsk05> ​'The HDD Clicker: Add Hard Drive Sounds to SD/CF/SSDs' by LGR Blerbs (00:14:34)
<zid> Found the solution to my woes
<zid> Can make my PC think again
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<heat> geist, you might've missed this: https://osg.tuhh.de/Advent/
<bslsk05> ​osg.tuhh.de: OSG - Advent(2)
<heat> go do advent of syscalls :)
<kaichiuchi> stupid question
<kaichiuchi> do you *need* to use heapsort on a heap?
<kaichiuchi> for example, I have an array which is guaranteed to be <=10 elements (nodes), insertion sort might be more efficient
<kof123> well, there is also nullsoft beep
<kof123> if you require additional thinking sounds
<geist> zid: oh yeah i saw that a while back. it's a little too regular for me, but i like it
<zid> for 10 elements you can just bubblesort it
<geist> i assume the clicker is just looking at accesses and clicking
<zid> you won't notice the performance difference unless you're doing it 20k times a second
<geist> i guess to be more accurate it'd need to parse the commands and click differently based on where it thinks it is seeking from
<zid> this is why modern software is slow I decided a while back, people spooling up fancy algs to deal with 10 things, just in case there's 10000 things
<geist> like a harder click based on how far it had to 'seek'
<zid> I think it just plays the click when the light goes on
<geist> right
<zid> it's replacing the light, not reading the commands
<geist> yah
<geist> but i think it'd still be pretty neat
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<moon-child> kaichiuchi: if you're doing insertion sort then it's not a heap, is it?
<moon-child> (also: a sorting network might be preferable, at such a size. Or do the quadratic compare + a sum scan, though you have to deal with duplicates then
<moon-child> zid: really. You think that modern software is slow because people spool up fancy algorithms to deal with 10 things just in case there's 10000 things?
<moon-child> I mean leaving aside the fact that 10000 is not a lot of things...
<zid> moon-child: it blows up the code size and the constant n factor a lot
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<zid> note I am not talking about "omg why is chrome using 4GB of ram!!" I am talking like, why is a linux kernel 100% bigger than a 2.6 kernel despite not doing anything extra, etc
<zid> I wouldn't wanna run 5.11 on a 386 no matter how much I pared the .config down
<zid> it's going to be slow and sucky, just because certain expectations are no longer valid
<zid> what a reasonable amount of a 'thing' is, typically
<moon-child> I'm pretty sure a linux kernel is 99% drivers
<zid> only if you go around [*]ing shit
<moon-child> and linux gets a lot of dev by intel, google, etc., who care a lot about performance on real workloads
<zid> exactly, and I pay for that in code size
<moon-child> why tf you care about code size
<moon-child> disc space is cheap
<zid> cache is a thing?
<zid> tlb faults are a thing?
<zid> Random example: I don't need a binary tree to find some cpu related data, but someone with 16384 cores might, what I need is a [12] and a linear scan.
<zid> I pay for that code existing so that the guy with 16384 cores doesn't have to eat a linear scan
<moon-child> someone with 16384 cores is going to bottom out with a linear search if they don't want to suck, and 12 is probably small enough to fit in a linear bucket
<moon-child> do you find linux to be slow? I don't
<zid> no because my hw kept up with the changes
<zid> security is another one of the big enslowernators, but you can turn some of that off at least :D
<moon-child> so your conclusions are based on ... nothing
<zid> wat
<zid> You've literally never heard anybody use retro versions of software on older hw, because modern versions are unsuitable?
<moon-child> I'm saying the claim that modern software is slow because the people optimising it don't understand constant factors is stupid
<zid> >note I am not talking about "omg why is chrome using 4GB of ram!!"
<moon-child> I will aver that there's not so much interest in optimising for consumer platforms as for, say, servers (you give the example of codesize for a tree
<moon-child> vs linear search)
<zid> It should be fairly obvious I don't want my current 6GB bzImage, which contains only an fs driver, on a 386 with 16MB of ram
<zid> 6MB*
<moon-child> it's a good thing we don't really use 386s with 16mb of ram anymore
<zid> yes, I am not suggesting one should, wtf
<moon-child> what's your point then
<zid> what point?
<\Test_User> "add compile-time switch for whether it should be massive server needing tree thing or typical desktop user where that would be overkill and slow everything"
<zid> You're the one interrogating me for one, I wasn't trying to convince you of aything
<zid> \Test_User: can do yea, and some thing do have that
<zid> but it isn't always feasible
<\Test_User> true
<zid> and honestly you don't want 30000 micro-switches
<zid> build testing issues, for one
<\Test_User> yeah, one general one should be "good enough" for most
<zid> nod, and what "suitable for today" is, shifts
<zid> like, you don't really need complex interrupt balancing code on a 386, but nobody's gunna *not* want that these days
<zid> or just an extra pointer here and there so that something can be realloc'd if needed
<geist> huh that's odd. rust seems to like to load a pointer to a library function in a register and then call it indirectly
<geist> even for just like hello world. it loads a pointer to std..._print and then calls it multiple times from the same register
<zid> rather than []'ing the place it loaded to the reg?
<geist> or just call _print
<zid> I didn't know list was actually kinda.. dynamic linkable like that
<zid> I figured it'd all be resolved at runtime using got style stuff
<zid> I don't khow much about rust, is it possibly because of being able to override functions and them all having to definitely refer to the same _print? Though I guess you'd see locking code or something for that? idk
<\Test_User> > it'd all be resolved at runtime
<\Test_User> there's another thing killing performance :P
<zid> yea, PIC on a 386 is great fun
<zid> as another
<zid> no rip-rel
<geist> yeah i mean for calling a truly remote thing dynamically linked you have to do something to resolve it for PIC or whatnot
<geist> but this is for even a function just later in the binary
<zid> rust has binaries!?
<zid> clever girl
<bslsk05> ​IRCCloud pastebin | Raw link: https://irccloud.com/pastebin/raw/w0pbBiuN
<geist> with no obvious reason to load it into a register like that. the fucntion is literally statically linked later in the binary
<zid> I do wonder if that just performs better tbh
<geist> perhaps it's some llvm codegen thing yeah
<geist> like 'if you call the function more than once in a method, load a poitner to it can indirect it'
<geist> which seems insane, but *shrug*
<zid> exactly yea
<zid> saves a lea at least? you'd assume saving a lea would be good
<geist> yeah another thing that will have to be un-done in kernel mode, since indirects are hella expensive
<zid> but it might mess with the branch predictor which is why I wouldn't do it myself
<geist> sure but it could have also just done a call to it directly
<geist> 32bit offset, so 5 or 6 bytes
<zid> is this not PIC though?
<geist> doesn't matter, it's within the same binary, statically linked
<zid> oh right relative calls exist, duh
<zid> and it's leaing the actual funtion address, not a pointer to it so it isn't about dynamic dispatch then, so yea, odd
<zid> I'm going to put it down to some weird limitation they have with their linker or something, whole rust ecosystem's still new
<zid> let's look again in 2040
<geist> huh yeah it seems to do it the instant you call the function twice in the same method
<zid> I assume that's a valid optimization, given the constraint that your linker can't handle patching relative calls
<geist> doesnt do it for other functions. it seems to be for things that are statically linked, but otherwise in an exteranal library
<geist> like std::
<zid> I assume the compiler can do it, but linker can't, then maybe
<geist> whereas function calls within the program, to other modules' methods dont get loaded and indirected like that
<geist> yah
<geist> what's interesting is the rip-relative lea has the same limitations offset wise
<geist> ie, +/-2GB from the RIP
<geist> as a call instruction
<zid> It's actually offset by a couple in one direction though because of the distance from the lea and the call :p
<geist> perhaps. anyway, strange. i hope it doesn't do that in kernel mode
<zid> -2.00001GB + 1.999999GB
<zid> I just need to make a 2GB rust program so I can see if they fuck that calculation up or not
<zid> (accidentally computing whether it's in range from the point of the call rather than the point of the lea)
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<moon-child> I had to rent a server with 140gb of ram to reproduce a 32-bit overflow
<moon-child> not strictly necessary, but it was satisfying
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<\Test_User> just use a 140gb swapfile?
<moon-child> didn't think of that :P
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<zid> oh right, advent, I forgor
<heat> this one seems herder
<heat> i'll skip for now
<heat> "why is a linux kernel 100% bigger than a 2.6 kernel despite not doing anything extra" you sure linux 6.0 doesn't do anything extra?
<zid> I described the sorts of thigns it does extra
<zid> hrmph I don't wanna bother writing out some list code but doing this with arrays is annoying also
<zid> ringbuffers are just as bug prone to hand-write
<heat> that whole "tree for 16K cpus" thing is actually not an issue as linux usually adapts to your MAX_CPUS
<zid> shush I'm busy
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<bslsk05> ​elixir.bootlin.com: aio.c - src/aio/aio.c - Musl source code (v1.2.3) - Bootlin
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<moon-child> afaik, freebsd is the only thing with a proper implementation of aio
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<heat> why
<kof123> i think you broke heat with that statement
<heat> i feel fine rn
<heat> i just want to know why
<kof123> thats only because maybe it came relatively modern and not 30 year old code
<heat> posix aio is not 30 years old
<heat> and freebsd and "modern, clean code" don't go hand in hand usually
<heat> "As a pure piece of additional information, BSD implements async file i/o using an in-kernel thread pool unless the handle is O_DIRECT"
<heat> ok, so it's not good
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<zid> okay all done, my silly bug that cost 10 mins today was that my debug printfs were crashing
<moon-child> fuck the kernel cache
<moon-child> all my homies hate the kernel cache
<moon-child> IO_DIRECT gang
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<zid> https://gist.github.com/zid/82dac0453e984be7c1fb08ce37a53617 NO CHEATING HEAT, nothing says good C program like a bespoke list implementation
<bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: 2022-day5.c · GitHub
<epony> and that's precisely where Pascal and C++ win
<epony> due to their stronger type systems (including checking)
<epony> but you would not know that, since both precede your time too ;-)
<heat> that's not very bespoke
<heat> less spaces, less characters
<zid> you cheater
<zid> I told you specifically not to cheat
<heat> dont worry I'm probably not using a list anyway
<heat> maybe I'll use a budget ass stack with arrays
<zid> Is it really christmas if I haven't written for(at = c; *at; at = &((*at)->next));? No, therefore by induction, given that I just did, it must be christmas. QED.
<zid> Merry Christmas.
* mjg burps
<zid> a ring buffer would be better
<mjg> instead of working on aoc you could ocntribute to openbsd
<epony> you're 1 month and 2 days early
<epony> maybe you live in the gloomy light territories
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<heat> simple 'as
<zid> nah that's just a random bigot
<heat> not every norf person is bald and fat
<heat> Thurrock, Essex
<heat> oops, not a norf fc fan
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <RealCatholicGod> @ChrisDeityUK "Love footy, hate women. 'Nuff said."
<epony> the half-heights have spoken
<zid> There we go, you use that to make fun of that guy
<epony> 2 days early is still today's early
<epony> whacky Month-day
<epony> have the Czech the new grain harvest
<epony> piss on your beer ban
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<epony> s/piss/peace/
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<heat> fm23's performance was acting up, had to reboot
<heat> the good ol reboot
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<zid> heat: the correct response was merry christmas
<heat> it's not even christmas rn
<heat> at best, it's hanukkah
<epony> matata
<zid> I QED'd
<zid> were you not paying attention
<heat> I EOF'd, then EOD'd, then EOL'd
<geist> ESC
<heat> in any case i'm AFK
<AmyMalik> Then I made all my programs proprietary to prevent AI hoovering it up.
<zid> I wanna be part of the class action lawsuit
<heat> that's why my aoc solutions are GPLv2
<heat> I don't want big capital to steal my epic codez
<AmyMalik> GPL2 is easily stealable by capital
<heat> we'll see comrade
<AmyMalik> try CNPL or gating behind a clickwrap page
<AmyMalik> women's football started during world war 2 because all the men folk were in the trenches. honour women's contribution to gladiatorial entertainment on the home front - advocate for the desegregation of sports.
<zid> I don't condone physical activity
<moon-child> gender segregation is stupid, but desegregating in honour of historical events is equally stupid
<zid> plus the event is that society was segretated
<epony> you're given the list because some people are insane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons#Functional_implementation
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: cons - Wikipedia
<epony> they don't have these computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setun or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternac or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machines#End_of_the_Lisp_machines but they keep thinking as if they do, while working in virtual machines on binary computers for ~60 years
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Setun - Wikipedia
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Ternac - Wikipedia
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Lisp machine - Wikipedia
<zid> can't tell if ignored spammer, or bot is laggy
<epony> and yet claim it's efficiency and purpose to use such data structures, while it's their simulation goals that they don't explain to you
<epony> you're laggy, by 60 years
<heat> it's the spammer
<AmyMalik> who exactly do I have on ignore lmao
<zid> epony
<AmyMalik> owo.
<zid> along with half the rest of libera
<geist> the horse you ride to defeat ganon!
<zid> I checked the public logs :P
<AmyMalik> quite...
<zid> geist: No, that's psuedon
<geist> but ganon!
<epony> pay gas OS
<AmyMalik> moon-child, meh, doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing
<geist> dont worry, Epona is SAFE
<AmyMalik> I'm like weirdly sped up and also tired
<geist> implemented RUUUUUUUUST
<AmyMalik> geist, Epona is ok. Epony is ridiculous.
<kazinsal> the rust evangelism strike force would like to know your location]
<geist> that's like driking too many red bull vodkas
<geist> you get hyper drunk. not really great
<zid> There's such a thing as too many vodka red bulls?
<kazinsal> yeah. one of them
<geist> yes, yes there are
<AmyMalik> zid, yes, any number is too many
<zid> why, they're yummy
<AmyMalik> ethanol is a fucking poison
<zid> mainly because it's got red bull in it, and red bull is yummy af
<geist> i found being hyper drunk as not a particularly good feeling
<kazinsal> yeah, that particular combination of uppers and downers doesn't work for me
<zid> beer makes me sleep
<heat> bruh
<zid> so it's more an anti-depressant
<epony> you're just diabetic ;-)
<heat> where's the downer?
<heat> "beer makes me sleep" that's not very BRI'ISH of you
<zid> CNS depression
<zid> heat: I've seen them all asleep outside of spoons, don't give me that
<zid> it looks like the somme
<epony> what happened to your list interests.. did these so(m)ber up
<epony> text editor when? ;-)
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<heat> lol
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<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: High-level language computer architecture - Wikipedia
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<AmyMalik> Wetherspoons?
<kazinsal> basilisk barfs out another seemingly random wikipedia article title and I realize it's not over yet
<heat> it's never over
<kazinsal> it merely ceases for a brief period
<kazinsal> I feel like I should do something useful with my day off tomorrow like learn lisp or something
<heat> i thought you said something useful
<kazinsal> tbh I've never learned anything about functional programming so it seems like I should at some point
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<LittleFox> functional programming definitely has some fun things
<LittleFox> even when you just sprinkle some fp concepts into procedural/object-oriented languages
<epony> unfortunately you can't use that fun without hardware that makes use of it
<LittleFox> like perls map/grep or typescripts map/filter/flatMap and co
<LittleFox> hm? you can translate fp to machine code for normal machines?
<epony> otherwise you're complicating your tooling singnificanly and discard all benefits
<epony> yep
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<LittleFox> and haskell is fp, has quite the benefits, not overly-complicated tooling and still works on normal processors
<LittleFox> has its own ABI tho, making it harder to integrate with non-haskell things
<epony> you typically use it for mathematical modelling and formal proof and data processing optimisations (discarding steps before doing the actual data manipulation)
<LittleFox> (take all I say re haskell with lots of salt - I didn't dive deep into how the code is executed)
<epony> using it in place of procedural programming is suboptimal (and using it to generate procedural programs that modify themselves is unreliable)
<epony> data processing (big data) companies need such operator-programmers
<epony> that's why it's mass marketed and spamming the internet, which pointless "hype" and "need"
<vai> hi
<epony> other than that, it's research and prototyping (modelling) instrumentation
<LittleFox> fp is quite useful in many places
<epony> and the implementation does not use it
<epony> the shit it is
<LittleFox> whatever
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<AmyMalik> the main usage of FP is when using it in procedurals
<AmyMalik> which would seem an oxymoron, but
<heat> i'm a big fan of functional programming and arm64
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<moon-child> everything works on normal processors (or else not at all); see the church-turing hypothesis
<moon-child> haskell is weird due to laziness
<AmyMalik> by main usage I mean the main time it's a good thing
<epony> heat, yes.. it's visible from a distance, that's why I was bugging you with these details..
<epony> it's a very small machine, with a very big appetite
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<zid> Is it 10pm yet
<epony> at the ±12th time zone offset, you're in the past
<epony> no civilisation there, just cannibals
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<heat> zid, yes
<heat> don't you see the 10 on your clock
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<zid> why isn't my book chapter out then
<zid> huh, youtube recommended me video, it's shot in my city
<zid> don't see that.. ever
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<zid> The last time I saw my city on video it was because of a car chase
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<AmyMalik> heat, it's 11am
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<zid> heat: can you increase my production of low density structures for me real quick?
<AmyMalik> ¿
<heat> zid, yes
<zid> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417023075348119556/1049296829994520676/image.png We have a term for this in my small unknown country, paltry
<heat> i wish i was english
<AmyMalik> really, you don't
<zid> copy pasted, printed out, framed
<zid> will use for blackmail at all opportunities
<heat> i could be sarcastic all the time, depressed at the permanently fucking grey sky and could use le funny expressions lads
<heat> and i could still go to THE FOOTIE WITH THA LADS
<zid> you do that anyway
<mjg> check out the scam
<Mutabah> Aah, Legal Eagle tore that a new one
<Mutabah> mostly the advertising
<mjg> bro
<heat> do you get a seat at the house of lords?
<mjg> legal eagle misses a big part of the point
<heat> probably not because it's scottish titles
<mjg> ET is owned by a company which specializes in scams
<mjg> and they have other scams running
<mjg> also advertising on youtube
<heat> so is every crypto company and boohoo bitch they're still there
<zid> is that a company that'll tell you you're a lord, along with which piece of the moon is yours, and which zoo animal?
<mjg> most notably "kamikoto knives"
<zid> NFTs for normies
<mjg> said knives are marketed as premium quality as sold for $300 (with "discount")
<mjg> dude did an investigation into them, found their steel grade
<mjg> turns out this is almost the cheapest shit you can buy
<mjg> upsold into oblivion
<heat> see, "almost"
<heat> they're not the cheapest, so not a scam
<mjg> MY BAD
<heat> they tried ok ;_;
<mjg> see here for a long video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpRNqZJPPBk
<bslsk05> ​'Are KAMIKOTO knives a SCAM?' by Shadiversity (00:52:39)
<mjg> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2W2TJZYHsw this video started it all
<bslsk05> ​'Established Titles Scam -YouTube's BIGGEST Con! Graham Stephan & Andrei Jikh' by Scott Shafer (00:14:55)
<mjg> this is the guy who apart from calling out ET investigated the parent company
<heat> i've been binge-watching videos about stupid dark souls challenges
<heat> can you beat dark souls solely with dung pie? yes you can
<mjg> is the no damage no lvl up 5 (or more?) games back to back
<mjg> from that game?
<heat> hm?
<heat> i need moar context
<bslsk05> ​'The Greatest Feat In Video Game History' by Karl Jobst (00:30:13)
<heat> yes this is dark souls
<zid> we cancelled karl jobst already mjg
<mjg> right, obligatory nazi comment
<zid> heat: I've been doing the same but ER, cus DS videos I watched years ago
<mjg> anyhow, the above is what i meant
<heat> zid, you haven't watched the dung pie one
<heat> it's literally shit
<zid> I have
<zid> I guarentee I've seen someone beat ds using only dong piss
<heat> I still find elden ring weird
<heat> it's like dark souls but not really and I haven't played it so it looks off
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<kaichiuchi> moon-child: I mean, yeah I guess
<zid> DS games are dead to me now, sekiro 2 when
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<heat> cringe
<zid> have you played it
<heat> no
<zid> the combat is really really really fun
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<zid> so fun it breaks your irc client
<AmyMalik> :O
<heat> router
<heat> irc client decent, router bad and very buggy
<zid> portugese language option mode
<zid> wouldn't want them getting any ideas
<heat> did I ever tell you folks about this bug it has where it resets the ipv6 flow label randomly, so load balancers that use it just route your packets mid connection to another server and you get a connection reset
<zid> are you too poor to have an ipv4 address
<zid> my german friend is
<zid> he only has an ipv6, and every customer is behind a single ipv4 mega-nat
<heat> it's brilliant
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<heat> holy shit this fucking router
<heat> no, I have v6 and v4
<heat> v4 over NAT ofc
<zid> so no v4 then
<zid> rip
<heat> who the fuck even has a non-NAT v4?
<heat> you have to pay a premium for that shit
<zid> western democracies that weren't part of the axis
<zid> "oh"
<heat> I'll let you know that portugal wasn't part of the axis
<zid> portugal is part of spain
<zid> spain was facscist at the time
<heat> they were just a tiny bit fascist and authoritarian in that time
<zid> faifsicsicist
<heat> spain wasn't in the axis either
<zid> ergo porto was axis
<heat> listen cuckface you call portugal porto and i'll piss all over your fish and chips
<zid> portugal is too long and too hard to type, what about platypusland
<heat> sgtm
<heat> but srsly wtf a non-NAT v4 address?
<zid> yea? nobody in the UK is behind nat
<zid> "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has a total of 123,897,600 IP address assigned. "
<zid> one each is ez pz.
<heat> wtf
<zid> "Portugal has a total of 6,797,312 IP address assigned."
<heat> yall have issues
<heat> everyone in portugal is behind a nat
<heat> always has been
<zid> First world nation baby
<zid> And that we invented half the tech stack for the internet anyway
<heat> where always = like 11 years ago
<zid> and the web
<heat> see, i wish i was english so i could flaunt this BRILLIANT BRIISH EXCELLENCE LADS I VOTE TORY BREXIT
<zid> no, we're undermensch or whatever the german is
<heat> unter
<zid> we invent things to try escape the yoke of the upper classes
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<zid> to set ourselves free from this dreary rock if only in our imagination
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<heat> i swear to fugging god
<heat> this fucking shitty piece of shit router
<mjg> probably running linukkZ
<zid> install openbsd on it
<zid> the good bsd
<heat> if it were running freebsd i could've exploited the setsockopt bug and get root already
<zid> jtag bro
<heat> or the ping(8) bug and also get root already
<mjg> and if it were running onyx you would not have interent
<heat> not true
<mjg> do you do routing?
<heat> it Just Works(tm)
<zid> if you were running boros you could accept pings!
<mjg> well you need to do nat i presume
<mjg> you got that dwag
<heat> it can route packets
<heat> as in, route src -> dst
<heat> it doesn't try to route external ones though
<mjg> but you don't do that
<mjg> s/that/nat
<heat> i do not
<mjg> so you would not have interwebz
<heat> i assume I would need a solid iptables implementation or something
<mjg> there was an incredibly bad idea how to implement nat
<mjg> so of course bsd went with it, see natd
<heat> ironic coming from a Free "ping(8) stack overflow" BSD developer
<heat> this sort of thing would not happen in OpenBSD
<mjg> funny you mention that
<heat> partly because theo would have deprecated ping(8) anyway
<mjg> theo added a lolo sycall once which was accessing user memory directly
<heat> rightfully so
<heat> EFAULT is for losers, so is SMAP
<zid> that's what BIG PROCESS LOCKs are for
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<heat_> accidental british renaissance
<zid> no it's like this every day, on purpose
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<mrvn> Switches don't route packets and they better work in hardware or you can kiss speed goodbye.
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<mjg> lol @ well street
<zid> It's the street with the well on it, but now it's full of well well well what do we have here, a man who is not well
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<remexre> anyone know of something like rr for qemu?
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<Ermine> https://wiki.osdev.org/UEFI -- was there a subsection on EDK2, or do I have a deja vu?
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: UEFI - OSDev Wiki
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: EDK2 - OSDev Wiki
<heat> also omg please don't use edk2 for bootloader development
<gog> don't use gnu-efi either
<gog> don't use EFI at all
<heat> reject computer, become a doctor or something
<gog> my boss and i had a rough day and he was talking about quitting work and growing potatoes in his yard
<Ermine> Why? Doesn't everything else depend on edk?
<gog> i think he's on to something
<heat> Ermine, what's "everything else"
<Ermine> heat: I was considering becoming a surgeon.
<Ermine> heat: gnu-efi and posix-efi.
<gog> gnu-efi doesn't depend on edk
<heat> no
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<Ermine> Well...
<gog> it's forked from an earlier efi lib
<heat> ok so, some context
<heat> efi is basically mostly implementeable using your own C headers and looking at the spec
<heat> the only problem is getting a PE out of it
<Ermine> gog: re not using efi: I don't want to stick with grub
<gog> clang
<Ermine> Or mingw32-gcc.
<heat> you can have a toolchain which spits out PE, and that's nice, but usually not very available for gcc people
<gog> which is why gnu-efi
<heat> objcopy an ELF works until you look at the relocations. gnu-efi deals with the relocations for you (it looks at the ELF ones in its "stub")
<heat> so then you have EDK2, which deals with every toolchain on earth and can translate anything to PE (in the big hairy horrible looking GenFw tool)
<heat> in any case if you're okay with requiring a toolchain that can make PE, you're fine
<heat> from experience clang can do it ez
<heat> gnu-efi is also fine but you depend on something external
<gog> --target=x86_64-unknown-windows -mno-avx -mno-sse -mno-mmx \
<gog> -funsigned-char
<gog> and -fshort-wchar if you want L"" literals
<gog> (you do)
<heat> -funsigned-char?
<gog> i forgot why i needed that
<gog> i think becaue c++ actually
<heat> btw, if you look at an EFI app/driver/module/whatever in depth, you'll find out it's mostly just a normal PE file, with an entry point
<heat> it doesn't dynamically link with anything, it's all static and relocatable
<heat> the magic is in the tables it passes you (which have funcptrs that help you find more tables, etc)
<Ermine> Okay, thank you!
<heat> that being said, don't use EDK2, it's for actual firmware development
<heat> not the sort of thing you want to use for an OS
<zid> my solution: fuck efi
<heat> sus
<Ermine> heat: my crazy idea is a yet another bootloader for Linux.
<heat> jim will fix it, zid will fuck it
<zid> (we both will)
<heat> Ermine, cool, good luck!
<heat> the x86 boot protocol is kind of shit btw
<Ermine> heat: thank you!
<Ermine> Linux docs agree and justify this by complex memory layout of x86.
<heat> it's just a matter of it growing over 30 years of linux
<heat> with probably no real clean break ever
<Ermine> And apparently they support stuff like loadlin (or did I misread this?)
<zid> I used loadlin
<heat> for sure
<heat> it supports 16-bit boot still
<Ermine> zid: I've seen a video with this, and it looks cool when linux takes over Win95.
<acidx> loadlin brings back memories. that and umsdos
<zid> LILO for life
<Ermine> Some people insist on using LILO.
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <Foone> but here's the thing: LOADLIN works because DOS doesn't do memory protection (since it's in a true 16-bit mode), and therefore it can completely overwrite DOS with linux. ␤ ␤ But Windows 95 doesn't let it do that.
<zid> when you say lilo for life
<zid> that means life, not just christmas
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<kaichiuchi> hi
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* geist waves
* GeDaMo particles
<kaichiuchi> in my quest for simplicity, I think I ruined a part of my design (unrelated to osdev)
<kaichiuchi> .
<kaichiuchi> think I should've just went with a heap...
<kaichiuchi> ugh
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<mrvn> Ermine: and yet there is winload or something that does exactly that.
<gorgonical> I cannot confirm that the espresso has made me more productive
<gorgonical> unfortunately
<mrvn> I believe it's a wash. What you gain you loose when it wears off
<mrvn> and then you have to drink more just to keep at the same level
<gorgonical> The solution is to make a faustian deal where you drink a shitload while working and become a catatonic mess when you aren't
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<gorgonical> what would be really useful is a device where I can put an sd-card in and it has cables that allow me to simultaneously connect that sd card to both a board and also the sdcard reader on my computer
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<gorgonical> oh man they exist
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<mrvn> and do what? record the commands and replies?
<gorgonical> I haven't set up something like pxe boot, so when I want to update my kernel I have to move the sdcard from the board to my computer, copy the new kernel, and move it back again
<gorgonical> The constant handling of the sdcard makes me worry about the contact longevity
<gorgonical> I want a sort of kvm switch for the card that will allow me to not move the card itself
<mrvn> That's why I wrote raspbootin for the RPi1. Loads the kernel over serial.
<gorgonical> It's something I should think about
<mrvn> I recommend setting up pxe. It's good experience and only takes a few minutes and you can use it over and over.
<gorgonical> hmm
<gorgonical> Does it require a lot of modifying the bootchain? Or can I basically just drop into pxe, dump the kernel, and it'll go?
<gorgonical> The u-boot already has pxe in it, so I could start into it
<mrvn> You need a tftp server and have to drop your kernel into the right dir and then tell the board the path to the kernel
<gorgonical> the path can be put into the u-boot commands I imagine
<mrvn> (or look what the default path it and put your kernel there)
<mrvn> s/it/is/
<mrvn> you might also need a dhcp server and have to configure it for pxe
<mrvn> with u-boot you can just tell it the ip:path for the kernel for tftp. no pxe needed at all.
<gorgonical> oh that would be great
<gorgonical> I think I'm gonna set that up right now actually
<bslsk05> ​community.arm.com: TFTP (remote/network kernel) using U-Boot - Wiki - Open Source Software and Platforms - Arm Community
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<gorgonical> cable came unplugged while moving stuff
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<lkurusa> I asked ChatGPT this prompt: `Write a simple bootloader for real mode x86 that will output "Hello from ChatGPT" to the screen.` and it gave me this code: https://dpaste.com/9JWF2CSBH
<bslsk05> ​dpaste.com <no title>
<gorgonical> mrvn: you were right, that was easy
<lkurusa> It's quite funny
<lkurusa> What's scary is that I told it: `You didn't define `message`.`
<lkurusa> and it said
<lkurusa> You are correct, I forgot to define the message variable that is used by the print_string subroutine in the bootloader code. To fix this, the message variable should be defined before the print_string subroutine, as shown below:
<lkurusa> and it gave me the fixed version
<bslsk05> ​dpaste.com <no title>
<lkurusa> Which is also broken, we still have our jobs.
<sortie> Still creepy
<lkurusa> Yes
<sortie> Although I wonder where it just copied that assembly from
<lkurusa> I told it "But it crashes!"
<lkurusa> and then it totally crashed
<lkurusa> I mean ChatGPT just produced non sense
<sortie> You know it's undefined behavior when the AI is affected too
<lkurusa> Haha
<lkurusa> The last instruction is the produced code is `mov ax, 0x`
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<geist> it also doesn't seem to understand the xor trick
<geist> but i guess its sort of effectively producing -O0 core
<geist> code
<geist> first obvious problem i see is it just puts the string in the middle of the code
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<lkurusa> Yeah
<lkurusa> I had some fun playing with it but it doesnt' seem particularly well-versed in OS concepts
<geist> yah i seems to understand the overall strategy of getting stuff to the screen via interrupts but it doesn't seem to fully grok the context it's in