klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<bauen1> zid: spectre is not a bug, it's a feature (in the worst way possible)
<zid> why would I think it was a bug
<zid> PUSe is built on it
<newpy> so the actual barebones tutorial elf works in qemu
<newpy> but qemu-system-i386 -cdrom myos.iso doesn't work for me
<klange> Can you upload that ISO somewhere?
<newpy> sure, one sec
<bslsk05> ​file.io: Download | file.io
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<klange> I'm not sure how you made this ISO but there's nothing but a grub.cfg on it.
<klange> Grub itself isn't there, your kernel image isn't there... something's gone wrong.
<newpy> huh
<newpy> I have isodir/boot/grub/grub.cfg, isodir/boot/myos.bin, and used `grub-mkrescue --xorriso=/.../xorriso -o myos.iso isodir
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<klange> Oh I do actually see the kernel binary, sorry, but grub itself is missing. I think mkrescue is confused about what build of grub to install - you may need additional grub-related packages.
<heat> newpy, what grub2 packages do you have installed? + whats your distro
<newpy> heat, it's a minimal ubuntu docker image
<newpy> I did `apt install grub-common`
<klange> That only installs the tools, we'll need grub-pc-bin I think to get the files for mkrescue
<newpy> oh weird
<newpy> it said successful so I thought it worked
<bslsk05> ​pastebin.com: # grub-mkrescue --xorriso=/root/xorriso-1.5.4/xorriso/xorriso -o myos.iso isodir - Pastebin.com
<klange> You may want to add `-d /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc` as well
<newpy> ok I'll try
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<clever> it should print "installing grub for platform pc" i think it was?
<clever> and at least for non-iso installs, youll then get a folder like this:
<clever> [root@amd-nixos:~]# ls -ltrh /boot/grub/i386-pc/
<clever> which contains the .mod for every module in grub
<klange> "xorriso : NOTE : Copying to System Area: 512 bytes from file '/usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/boot_hybrid.img'
<klange> no system area = no bootable disk
<clever> i think there was 3 different ways an iso can boot? but i can only remember 2 of them
<clever> one is to just have a 1.44mb disk image, and the bios will emulate it into a floppy and boot from it like a normal floppy boots
<gog> el torito, floppy emulation and uhhhh
<gog> uefi?
<newpy> klange, grub-mkrescue: error: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/modinfo.sh doesn't exist. Please specify --target or --directory.
<clever> another is to just have a blob that the bios loads into ram, and jumps into, and its your job to deal with the cdrom from there
<klange> newpy: Did you install that grub-pc-bin package?
<clever> gog: oh yeah, and uefi is a recent addition
<newpy> klange, oh forgot
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<newpy> klange, that worked
<klange> \o/
<newpy> qemu loaded grub, I selected myos, and it printed the welcome
<newpy> could you explain what exactly I just did though? :D
<klange> Grub's tools are not meant for what we use them for, hence why that tool is called 'mkrescue' - it's not for making bootable CDs from scratch, it's for building a rescue CD for the current running system.
<klange> Your Docker image doesn't _have_ grub, so it doesn't know what the heck to put on such a CD.
<klange> grub-pc-bin contains the files that would be installed for a normal BIOS installation of GRUB. There's another package for EFI installations.
<newpy> ah ok
<newpy> so it was reporting success b/c what we're doing is out of spec and it was just doing the bestit could
<klange> grub-mkrescue is basically a overgrown shell script rewritten in C
<newpy> I was just confused why it reported success here without grub-pc-bin: https://pastebin.com/EQnwK2sF
<newpy> thought maybe it would print an error if there were missing files
<klange> That goes back to your Docker image not having grub. grub-mkrescue looked at the existing grub config, found that it did nothing, and so it successfully duplicated that.
<heat> why are you giving it a xorriso
<newpy> ooohhh I see
<newpy> it literally looks at the current OS's grub
<heat> why are you doing this in a container
<heat> weren't you using WSL
<newpy> heat, yea I am in WSL
<newpy> I use this env for school, can't afford to break it right now
<newpy> hence a container
<heat> you're not breaking anything
<klange> Were you doing anything else, I would agree with heat's line of questioning, but this is grub stuff...
<heat> WSL doesn't use grub
<heat> it uses nothing, just hypervisor magic
<newpy> fair enough, but I don't know what might break stuff and what wouldn't
<newpy> prof is really strict on extensions, he'd just fail me
<clever> `I use this env for school`, newpy: and thats why i use nix, so every env is isolated, and they cant break eachother, while also fixing everything with docker
<newpy> Honestly I might just get another rig so I can have a "clean" school env
<clever> meant to quote the `can't afford to break it right now` half, oops
<klange> Alternatively, you know you can set up multiple WSL environments...
<newpy> klange, is that better than just using docker containers?
<heat> it's cleaner
<newpy> ah I see
<newpy> I'll set that up tomorrow
<heat> you're not doing lightweight virtualization on top of virtualization
<newpy> true
<newpy> although I'm using docker desktop on windows which is somehow integrated with WSL
<heat> oh doesn't docker on windows use virtualization?
<newpy> when I installed it said it had WSL2 integration
<newpy> but I'm not sure what it's actually doing
<clever> last i heard, it was just linux docker in a virtual machine
<heat> yes it might use a separate wsl vm
<clever> but WSL2 is pretty much a linux virtual machine
<clever> so they may be piggy-backing off that
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<junon> (they are)
<moon-child> wsl2 makes me really sad
<moon-child> from a business perspective, it absolutely makes sense
<moon-child> but--it's not going to make me want to use windows anyway, and if I _were_ to use windows, I know how to run a vm
<moon-child> and wsl is a lot more technically interesting
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<zid> moon-child: ah yes but think of all the gpu cloud space programs that can be written on windows but using comfortable environments now
<zid> tying your cloud datacenter to buying windows licences
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<junon> I'm still on wsl1, I really hate that windows just gave up on the vision.
<junon> I refuse to go to wsl2. I'll just use vmware to do that if need be.
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<junon> I'm still salty that Microsoft ignored a local privilege escalation I reported to them and then silently patched it a few months later without ever even responding to me.
<junon> Related to wsl1 I mean.
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<jason1234> Hello, we try on GRU (this not GNU, but GRU) the new OS : ORION
<jason1234> - what was the name of this little kernel - a Clone of LINUX made by 5 persons only, a rewrite in C, and that they have a #channel on freenode/libera with about 10-20 users?
<klange> That's way too vague. Sortix, maybe?
* kazinsal . o O ( DEVGRU/Linux )
<jason1234> yeahhh thanik you !
<jason1234> i need a little kernel like minix/linux 0.01 <-- (because linus forked minix) for x86 and arm.
<jason1234> ideally would be from v5 unix with sockets.
<jason1234> i need an OS for my TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM
<klange> Linus did not fork Minix.
<sham1> junon: why are you insisting on WSL2
<sham1> Err, WSL1
<kazinsal> I'm quite confused at this because Linux is not a Minix fork, Sortix does not have an ARM port, and V5 Unix was never released outside of Bell Labs
<klange> That is a very problematic myth that even Tanenbaum has thrown his hat in the ring to eradicate.
<jason1234> it is said that linus stole code from tannenbaum for x86. no idea. i just quote
<sham1> What quote
<sham1> Because that'd be quite the revelation
<jason1234> that is the TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM - dmesg, https://termbin.com/8s8u <-- I need a smaller OS
<jason1234> sham1: from a given libera #channel, speaking about os
<kazinsal> I have a similar archaic box and it runs Windows 95.
<klange> I want you to know that this is a channel for building your own operating system, not asking for one for your ancient laptop.
<jason1234> evil evil == Windowz
<sham1> jason1234: well I"m fairly sure that the #channel is wrong
<sham1> And since you can't even name it…
<jason1234> i am not so sure---anyhow... my 32 MB satellite... what can run it well and free code?
<sham1> FreeDOS?
<jason1234> netbsd 7 is bit too heavy.
<klange> This is not an OS recommendation channel or a support channel for old hardware.
<klange> And Sortix is not at all what you are looking for, it needs something newer than a Pentium and with far more RAM to be usable and is not designed for old machines.
<kazinsal> Your best bet is to throw that ancient machine out.
<klange> It belongs in a museum!
<sham1> Thanks Indy
<sham1> Although since this is an OS development channel, one could always make their own thing for the Satellite
<zid> yea if you're here you need to write an OS for it, them's the rules
<jason1234> sortie: hello, I am looking your webpage. nice nice and nice C code.
<jason1234> sortie: thank you for your V5 system !
<kazinsal> Sortix is neither a V5 nor written in C.
<kazinsal> I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
<sham1> Being confused, it seems
<jason1234> serioulsy? sortix webpage should have : C and C++
<klange> Sortix is almost entirely C++.
<jason1234> beurk !!
<klange> It has nothing to do with V5 anything, it's based on modern POSIX standards.
<jason1234> C++ is ugly and it is very ugly for a kernel
<junon> Haha, oh boy
<jason1234> so next.
<junon> Let's not start language wars on a sunday morning
<jason1234> Is there a similar little kernel in C/ASM ?
<kazinsal> I recommend another channel. This one seems to not be your speed.
<junon> jason1234: the NT kernel might suit you
<jason1234> ideally a fork of V5 for i486?
<jason1234> is NT free today?
<junon> yeah sure
<junon> depends on the site you get it from
<junon> but yeah
<jason1234> where is the SRC code ?
<kazinsal> junon: We have already determined this one is a Certified OS Bigot as well as a Certified Language Bigot, so NT is right out
<klange> You seem to very confused about a great many things.
<junon> but NT is written in C
<jason1234> isnt there a PORT or FORK of Unix V5 for i486 CPU old notebooks?
<bslsk05> ​onein528/NT5.1 - Windows NT 5.0 kernel source code. (is fork /2 forks/0 stargazers)
<junon> very popular, used by millions, written in C and assembly
<junon> sounds perfect for you
<junon> ignore the "windows"
<jason1234> really?
<kazinsal> If anyone's lawyers ask, I didn't see that link
<junon> yeah sure jason1234
<jason1234> maybe for this ->> that is the TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM - dmesg, https://termbin.com/8s8u <-- I need a smaller OS
<junon> though that's in the #nt5.0 channel, you should /part and head on over there
<kazinsal> You need another channel
<klange> We are not a support channel for old computers. Please go somewhere else.
jason1234 was kicked from #osdev by klange [jason1234]
<kazinsal> If you didn't do that, I was about to actually start being a dick.
<junon> I don't think I've ever seen you kick someone
<junon> I feel like I just witnessed a once in a lifetime event
<kazinsal> It's uncommon that people get kicked here in general.
<junon> exactly haha
<klange> Unless they're one particular repeat visitor.
<junon> Oh yeahhhh that guy
<kazinsal> You either have to be a bot, a Recurring Problem, or abusive
<klange> And we usually let him blabber for a bit if it's not rule-breaking.
<junon> I think jess k-lined him or something. I haven't seen them around in ages.
<klange> Not sure it's possible to k-line him, he was going through thousands of APAC jump boxes.
<sham1> I don't think that person was any of those, just a bit confused
<zid> sounded like a child
<kazinsal> And I'm pretty sure if anyone showed up and started being *phobic the ops would be scrambling over each other to kickban, so we effectively never have to go with the bans for abuse
<zid> but they typed too fluently so idk
<kazinsal> It's the kind of thing that just doesn't happen here because nobody rolls up into #osdev to be that kind of a shithead
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<junon> I'm kinda reeling over their specificity about OSes but didn't know what NT was.
<geist> ah i missed the jason blabbing
<geist> yeah that one is weird. haven't seen that jason unit in a while
<kazinsal> For real, like, okay, I knew where we were going as soon as they reacted with hostility to a joke about my ancient Toshiba laptop running 95
<kazinsal> But then... that.
<junon> is jason a repeat offender? I've not seen the jason one around.
<klange> I feel terrible for mistakenly guiding him to sortix, I'll have to buy sortie his preferred chemically-spiked beverage at some point.
<junon> Only the one that went on and on about new world orders and whatever
<kazinsal> #osdev meetup? #osdev meetup.
<sham1> Oh no
<klange> In the beforetimes I would have considered it, and there have been mutterings in the past.
<junon> Oh man I would love to have it in Japan if it ever happened, but I realize how insanely inconvenient that would be for most people.
<kazinsal> One of these days we'll all coalesce in Seattle for a weekend or something, I'm sure
<geist> yah i once nearly met up with someone here when i was in sydney on a trip but we both flaked on each other
<klange> Seattle is probably the most likely place, or Vancouver if there is enough pushback from selecting a US venue.
<geist> i have met sortie at the office though
<kazinsal> Vancouver would also be great, as I wouldn't need to get a hotel :P
<junon> Seattle would be cool. Parents are just a state over.
<kazinsal> I'm hoping my plans for Seattle in March are still on but that all depends on the next six or seven weeks
<sham1> North America would be interesting but god damn the jet lag
<geist> yeah
<geist> travel would be good but god damn the everything
<Belxjander> I'm in Japan and not likely to go anywhere...
<klange> I really wish one of the ACM/IEEE-attached groups was actually about operating systems...
<klange> Could just go to one of _their_ conferences...
<kazinsal> mos def. I'm apparently going to be able to get shot number three in the next few weeks
<Belxjander> so only really going to meet anyone who is already in Japan at the time
<klange> But nooo, SIGOPS is about _distributed networks_...
<kazinsal> SIGOPS: We Don't Know What Our Name Stands For
<klange> Well, Japan gets me, you, and marcan.
<sham1> Being in Europe makes this stuff weird if that was to be a thing
<junon> I'd go to Japan but the borders are all closed.
<sham1> Maybe 2023
<Belxjander> junon: I'm originally from NZ and never went back... they shut the borders even for natives there... but I didn't miss anything even while being in Japan anyway
<kazinsal> Kinda thinking of going to USENIX this year but I'm not sure
<junon> Will you ever go back, though?
<klange> Usenix is too stuffy.
<klange> I don't think I could emotionally survive a legimate conference on operating systems.
<klange> It would just be endless talks demonstating how quaint and childish I am.
<nur> lol I've been to OSDI and the ATC
<nur> I just go to learn stuff
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<kazinsal> Yeah, at some point I'd get tired of the weird greybeards and start talking about my opinions on Desktop Linux, and how the most Desktop of Linuxes is Windows 11...
<moon-child> ._.
<nur> weirdbeards
<nur> I love 'em
<sham1> smolbeards
<nur> it's 2022 the year of linux on the desktop
<nur> (this time right?)
<moon-child> I have no beard, nor am I very old, but I feel old, and am very grumpy; do I count as a greybeard?
<nur> yes
<sham1> greybeard is an internal attitude
<kazinsal> nur: The year of Linux on the Desktop was 2016, as that's when WSL was first released
* kazinsal ducks
<nur> kazinsal, I actually agree.
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* sham1 gooses
<nur> wsl makes using windows tolerable :)
<sham1> That it does
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<moon-child> for my own part, I find wsl (and windows) completely uninteresting. But if y'all like it, more power to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<nur> I'm forced to use Windows at work and I can drop into wsl2 and lo and behold it's linux, right there
<moon-child> I have a copy of windows 8 on my laptop still
<kazinsal> WSL is neat but I just have a headless Linux box for my actual linux work since Windows has an actual xterm-compliant terminal and openssh built in these days
<sham1> I just use Windows Terminal. It's web trash but it works for WSL
<moon-child> I found my term state still got messed up using whatever was the newest and fanciest terminal windows had
<sham1> And I have Windows 11 on my laptop so really it just works as a bootloader for Emacs
<moon-child> (this was, maybe, 6 months to a year ago?)
<sham1> Since WSL2 on Windows 11 can into graphical apps
<nur> I haven't had Windows on any personal machines since 2000
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<kazinsal> I still play video games regularly and I can't be arsed to deal with proton/wine/whatever
<nur> oh wait sometimes I put it in a VM if I really need it
<klange> It's a terrible RFB thing and it's quite slow; I got better performance running XMing.
<nur> ah yes games
<nur> I don't play them so that's not an issue
<sham1> I also play video games, and I play one which can't even be put into Wine/Proton because anticheat
<klange> I play one game, and it runs great in Wine.
<nur> but sometimes I think "it'd be neat if I could play video games"
<nur> klange, enjoying Simcity2000 eh
<sham1> You could always play Xonotic. It's actually pretty good
<klange> FFXIV
<sham1> ofc
<moon-child> only remotely recent video games I've played are doom and overwatch. Doom worked ootb in steam, overwatch took a bit of fanagling but
<kazinsal> Riot will never actually port the League client to Linux, but that's probably just fine because I can imagine them managing to Spaghetti Code an accidental rm /
<kazinsal> (Runs great on my Macbook though!)
<sham1> Could you run Adobe Air on Linux or whatever
<nur> oh yeah, I have a few macbooks too for photoshop :)
<moon-child> .oO(why run a linux vm on windows rather than a windows vm on linux?)
<junon> simcity2k was an incredible game
<nur> it was
<nur> rip maxis
<klange> just buy another computer /s
* kazinsal looks at GPUs and cries
<sham1> Why run a linux vm on windows instead of a window vm on linux? Because most desktops and window managers on Linux (and the BSDs) are terrible
<nur> why run a linux vm on windows instead of a linux vm on a mac then :)
<moon-child> sham1: I can not stand window management on windows. But that's just me
<klange> just run toaruos /s
<nur> do _you_ run taoruos?
<moon-child> kazinsal: Soon™
<klange> on a laptop
<nur> if I was forced to run my own OS I'd be cursing the guy who wrote it
<nur> which would be me
<kazinsal> Reminds me, I need to get Toaru running on my ESXi box so I can test whether it's the host that has the worst goddamn throughput ever or if my e1000 driver and/or the rest of my kernel just sucks
<moon-child> if I were forced to run my own shit full-time I'd be heavily motivated to improve it
<kingoffrance> ^ yes, that is the dogfood theory
<kingoffrance> you have to fix things
<kingoffrance> i think it sounds great...long term. short term, not so much
<klange> I don't really dogfood my OS, because as we all know it's a toy and not a real thing.
<klange> I do dogfood my editor. I have used it almost exclusively for the last three years.
<klange> I get confused if I have to use vim because of little things I did differently.
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<sham1> I wish there were wlan cards with as openly known stuff as things like the e1000
<zid> rt2560
<zid> but it's very old now, 54mbps pci or whatever
<sham1> The best I could think of would be some dongles
<zid> it does get used on some dongles I th ink
<zid> that whole rt25xx is pretty documented I think
<klange> There are some USB dongles that are "give me an SSID and password and I'll give you what looks like an Ethernet card".
<GeDaMo> Do you also have to supply bank details? :P
<kazinsal> I think I'd rather write a full fat USB stack than a WLAN stack...
<zid> ye the 802.11 part is the hard part I imagine
<sham1> Me too. USB is more documented than most wlan devices
<zid> I can't imagine a wlan card is too different to a lan card
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<klange> Presumably all the actually hard stuff is being offloaded to the card now but there's very little documentation available for wireless chipsets.
<geist> the docs if they existed would primarily be a private api to the firmware on it
<kazinsal> Yeah, I figure that's a lot of the reason most of them require firmware blobs.
<klange> Here's a random video of ToaruOS booting from a USB stick on a ThinkPad T410 because why not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5udChq1erc
<bslsk05> ​'2022年1月9日' by K Lange (00:00:30)
<geist> thus they dont really want to document it since it's basically some private RPC
<klange> Maybe one of those Arduino modules... but I think those also offload the whole TCP/IP stack to a mystery package...
<GeDaMo> ESP?
<j`ey> klange: v cool
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: ESP8266 - Wikipedia
<kazinsal> Yeah, those ESPs are neat but a bit weird to work with
<geist> dunno if it's open source or not but they also have some fairly large blobs of stuff doing things
<geist> well ESP32 is what i'm thinking about
<geist> this looks like a predecessor to it
<klange> Radio stuff is all smoke-and-mirrors legally restricted.
<GeDaMo> Yeah, that's the older one
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<kazinsal> Luckily there are some unrestricted bands but you have power limits in them etc
<klange> And most modern wifi/bluetooth/lte chipsets are built on very flexible software-defined-radio bits that are only legally permissible because the 'software' involved is the magic firmware blob.
<kazinsal> Can't just start blasting 10 kilowatts of k-pop on the ATC bands
<zid> FCC stuff is the main reason for all the fw blobs isn't it?
<zid> they need them not to be software configurable radios
<zid> which means hardcoding a bunch of stuff
<kazinsal> Sorta, yeah. SDRs exist and you can get them but they're almost always RX only
<kazinsal> I have one and I'm pretty sure it literally does not have TX functionality
<zid> so if you're allowed to set up various PLLs or whatever to select a band you could.. program them out of legality, so they just give you an ioctl and the fw does it
<geist> omg i'm totally binge watching omozoc stuff on youtube
<geist> it's hard to look away
<GeDaMo> What's omozoc?
<zid> never heard of it either
<GeDaMo> "omozoc is a Japanese YouTuber who makes stop-motion videos." ?
<geist> https://youtu.be/eMYWVKd0ar0 is the one i'm watching now
<bslsk05> ​'MILK CRATE' by omozoc (00:04:06)
<geist> yeah they're really well done, and sometimes really surreal
<zid> oh
<zid> he won an oscar I think
<zid> for the chopped salad one
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<geist> https://youtu.be/LLj0DYO7os4 is the one someone forwarded to me earlier and got me watching
<bslsk05> ​'SECRETS OF HARVARD STUDENTS' by omozoc (00:04:01)
<sham1> This looks so weird
<kazinsal> Yeah, these are fascinating to watch
<zid> watch the slad one :p
<kingoffrance> not knowing anything, thats what ive read too...receive all day long. its when you start transmitting then FCC comes a knocking
<kingoffrance> people who try to make custom antennae
<kazinsal> Yeah, once in a while I fire up the RTL-SDR and catch some stuff on the airwaves
<kazinsal> I don't have a license though so no transmitting for me
<zid> my random capture card I use for consoles can do DVB-T and radio and stuff
<zid> but I never have the antenna cable plugged in
<sham1> Are these kitchen utensils
<zid> they are woodworking tools, can't you see
<kingoffrance> dont have a link...people would get custom antenna, hook up to a router...but only if they could decrease the transmit power
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<kingoffrance> otherwise, you run afoul of some limit
<zid> oh PES is the one that got the oscar, unless it's the same person, but it's the exact same style
<bslsk05> ​'Fresh Guacamole by PES | Oscar Nominated Short' by PES (00:01:41)
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<GeDaMo> Those make me think of these things http://gam.ebb.jp/html5/kaitai14_ch/kaitai14_ch_en.html
<bslsk05> ​gam.ebb.jp: RIDDLE Dismantlement Boxlunch3(Chinese)
<GeDaMo> You dismantle an object by solving puzzles
<GeDaMo> The older ones are Flash, unfortunately, but there are some newer ones in JS
<nur> I should learn C++
<zid> see you in 2032
<nur> by which time there will be 40 new C++'s
<zid> good point, see you in the void century
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<sortie> <klange> Sortix is almost entirely C++.
<sortie> Just the kernel, ext2 filesystem in user-space (going into the kernel in the future), and some games. The rest of Sortix is very much C.
<moon-child> 'filesystem in user-space' you do fuse? Or a custom thing?
<sham1> Implementing drivers in userspace is nice. Hybrid kernels
<moon-child> prefer ukernel
<moon-child> (or does it make a difference? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
<klange> sorry
<sortie> moon-child, it's a custom protocol. I didn't like the exact design of fuse. Anyways my protocol has some big fundamental issues and I plan to get rid of it, move the ext2 filesystem into the kernel for performance, mmap support, and unified cache policies. I'll probably build something better one day.
<sortie> klange, oh no worries, but can we talk about how this guy took the time to explicitly say G.R.U. and not GNU
<kazinsal> unix, but brought to you by the main intelligence directorate of the russian federation
<sortie> I will be upset if my OS ends up being used by fun organizations such as intelligence agencies and homeland sec
<Ermine> Russian military uses Debian-based linux distro
<Jari--> Ermine: Astra Linux?
<Ermine> Yeah
<Jari--> time for real rue
<kazinsal> I think the Canadian Forces still uses 2.11BSD and VAXes.
<kazinsal> I'm only half joking -- the last production commercial Multics system in the world was operated by the CF.
<kazinsal> It was shut down in 2000.
<bslsk05> ​arstechnica.com: Air Force finally retires 8-inch floppies from missile launch control system | Ars Technica
<GeDaMo> 2019
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<kazinsal> Vancouver's automated rail system still runs off 3.5" diskettes
<sham1> Nothing wrong with diskettes
<Ermine> I've heard somewhere that US missile defence use computers from 70s-80s, but I'm not sure whether it is (still) true
<sham1> One needs 100% uptime
<kazinsal> There's plans to build a new operations and maintenance centre with a new set of machines running newer SelTrac software
<kazinsal> But convincing the government to let go of a hundred million is a bit of a task
<GeDaMo> Ermine: that article, they're still using these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia
<GeDaMo> "a 16-bit minicomputer, introduced in 1976"
<Ermine> GeDaMo: thanks
<Ermine> They don't modernize it, because downtime is expensive
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<kazinsal> F/A-18s are still running on AN/AYK-14s from the 70s as well
<GeDaMo> Probably less susceptible to EMP too
<kazinsal> Military tech lags behind because ruggedization is hard
<kazinsal> IIRC most US Navy shipboard computer workstations are VMEbus based
<Ermine> I wonder if they write software in Ada
<kazinsal> C and Ada, previously this atrocious bastard language called CMS-2
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<zid> I have a hungry but nothing looks interesting.. or doesn't require cooking
<moon-child> what's wrong with cooking?
<zid> I'm also lazy
<zid> as well as hungry
<GeDaMo> Toast
<zid> requires cooking, and requires nicer bread than I have tbh
<zid> they were out of the nice stuff
<gog> i had a bacon egg sandwich
<zid> jello
* gog passes zid a lox and shmear bagel
<zid> I have no idea what those words are is this a trick
<Mutabah> I keep a stock of "emergency noodles" (instant noodle cakes with flavour saches), good for quick and lazy meals
* moon-child also does not know what a shmear is
<gog> it's smoked salmon and cream cheese
<gog> best kind of bagel topping imo
<zid> I had noodles for breakfast :p
<moon-child> gog: gotta add onyo
<gog> moon-child: onion is critical
<moon-child> and tomato
<gog> yes
<moon-child> and those little pickle-ish things--I don't remember what they're called
<moon-child> chives, maybe?
<zid> What I want is like.. pizza
<gog> capers
<moon-child> yeah those
<zid> or a big mac
<gog> a classic bagel
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<moon-child> now I want a bagel
* gog is the bagel babe
<GeDaMo> A pizza is just bread with stuff on top, right? :P
<gog> yes
<zid> if my pizza has a hole in it I'm sending it back
<bauen1> keeping a can of "good enough to eat" instant meal around is a good idea ; especially if you manage to forget that certain days are holidays and you end up standing in front of a closed supermarket
<gog> we keep good bread and pb & j in the house for quick brekkies
<sham1> zid: you could try ordering
<zid> at 1pm on a sunday?
<sham1> Yes
<zid> that.. is not going to work
<zid> oh shit I know what I want, battered sausage
<zid> hrng
<j`ey> sounds painful
<GeDaMo> Only if you're the sausage :P
* moon-child batters zid's sausage
<sham1> Get a room
* moon-child slaps sham1 around a bit with a battered sausage
<sham1> Oh good. Two minutes until the sun's down
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<zid> if you've never had one you are missing out
<GeDaMo> I like a white pudding on occasion
<zid> what animal do you get the white blood from?
<GeDaMo> Oatmeal :P
<zid> Oat blood is pretty metal
<zid> I bet there are nice ones, but I bet there are also bloody awful ones
<sham1> Hah, bloody
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<zid> "Im trading to make a OS from scratch, can simeone tekla me how to make the supporto for HDMI ?"
<zid> It's nice that on reddit I can silently ignore these people without feeling like they are imposing on my time in the first place
<moon-child> can you?
<moon-child> because you've spent _at least_ 30 seconds thinking about it
<zid> ignore != !think
<moon-child> does it though
<moon-child> lmao, that guy only has one other comment: 'Siuuuuum, grande rat'
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<gog> mew
<g1n> mew gog
<gog> oh hai
<gog> fancy meeting you here
<g1n> lol
<g1n> maybe i will get back to developing orion one day
<gog> we all tell ourselves that :p
<g1n> lol
<sham1> No such thing as "getting back to developing"
<g1n> ok
<g1n> you got me
<g1n> i maybe will rewrite it
<g1n> lmao
<Lugar> lol
<g1n> cuz it was several monthes ago since i last touched it
<gog> hey i got my stuff going again after several months :p
<gog> during a rewrite of a thing
<GeDaMo> You're resting between development sessions :P
<g1n> and a lot of taken from somewhere code, that wasn't understood by me lmao
<eryjus> sometimes you have to take a break to make things clear
<g1n> yes
<gog> yes need a months-long rest
<g1n> but i was accually writing other code, and learnt a lot new things :)
<eryjus> but there is no "getting back"... it's all part of the process
<GeDaMo> You're waiting for the right path to reveal itself :P
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<gog> think i'm giving up on trying to do anything else today :p
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<gog> i'm looking at the code and just pulling my hair
<GeDaMo> You use a gesture controlled editor? :|
<gog> no i just pull my hair when i can't focus :p
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<Lugar> when I cant focus i just sit on my sofa and stair out the window
<Lugar> i might come back to my pc in 5 minutes, or 15, or a day
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<gog> there's just too much happening in my house to really finish a thought to complention rn :p
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<sortie> Anyways that operative joining asking about an OS for their 32 MB laptop sent me on a big sidequest today
<gog> what did you find?
<sortie> Anyways fixing a silly but nasty kernel linking bug, I reduced my minimum memory usage requirements for i686 from 129 MiB to 32 MiB
<gog> nice
<sortie> Basically the .init section had gotten linked at 128 MiB which meant GRUB failed to load the kernel on machines smaller than that, despite it not being used, whoops
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<sortie> Without a graphical login screen, an installation of my OS can boot in 20 MiB. 24-32 MiB is kinda needed for it to be functional. If I disable the framebuffer and use the vga text mode, it can boot in 17 MiB.
<sortie> (Of course you'll need more memory for whatever you want to DO with my OS)
<gog> 32MiB should be enough for anybody
<vdamewood> I'm building a computer that only has 16MiB of address space.
<vdamewood> And I might ony use 128k of that.
<GeDaMo> Pfft! Who needs more than 64K? :P
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<bauen1> anything more than 4kb SRAM and a 256 bytes ROM with the original woz monitor is seriously overkill
<gog> yes
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<vdamewood> GeDaMo: Well, 32k of RAM, 32k of ROM, and a few extra bits for I/O.
<gog> the only I/O you need is a teletype
<vdamewood> gog: But how will i activate the fish dispenser?
<gog> hmm good point
<gog> you need at least two serial ports then
<bauen1> vdamewood: you can display a prompt to the user, telling the user to activate the fish dispenser
<gog> furthermore i thought you were the fish dispenser
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* vdamewood dispenses a fishy to gog.
* gog chomps fishy
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<vdamewood> The videos I watched that inspired the project only had an LCD character display for output and a single push button for input.
<GeDaMo> "Please do not press this button again" :P
<bslsk05> ​'DON'T TOUCH BOX !!! - THE ORIGINAL by Sally71 (my shop: www.sally71.com) useless box' by **Sally71** (00:02:50)
<kingoffrance> ren and stimpy had a big red button in space IIRC
<vdamewood> I miss ThinkGeek.
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<vdamewood> I just did a search for Useless Box on GameStop.com... the search results included the XBox Series S.
<gog> haaaaa
<gog> gottem
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<friedy10-> vdamewood: How is it useless? It can run doom.
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<vdamewood> friedy10-: Don't ask me. Ask GameStop.com. They're the ones who yielded it as a result.
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<sortie> The feeling when somebody successfully boots my OS on a Pentium 2 447MHz with 192 MiB RAM
<sortie> They did have to patch out enabling SSE, turns out I don't hard require it after all (if it's not enabled)
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<geist> yah re: physical load address i think the safest is 16MB
<geist> it avoids any lower ISA/EISA holes, and is generally free of EFI stuff
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<vdamewood> geist: Is that Re: what I was talking about?
<geist> well, sortie was saying a while ago that they moved the load address of the kernel so it'd run on lower ram
<zid> 1MB for life
<geist> i was generally commenting that a good load address for x86 kernels is 16MB since it's the first real absolutely guaranteed free run
<geist> though yeah 1MB is usually free too
<geist> i think with zircon we've seen some hazards down there where EFI systems dont always clear it ou
<zid> low addresses on x86 are a nightmare mess
<geist> we've had to fiddle a bit with load addresses, and the ultimate solution which is nearly ready is to just make the kernel physically relocatable
<sortie> geist: Oh right I use 1 MiB
<sortie> geist, the problem was that I had a stray section that wasn't linked properly and the linker happened to put those 15 bytes at 128 MiB
<geist> ah yeah
<sham1> Don't use anything below 16 MiB unless absolutely necessary (ISA DMA, AP trampoline for SMP purposes). Just let it be after you've loaded your kernel (above the 16 MiB hole one would hope)
<sham1> A machine where you can't put the kernel and such onto over 16 MiB is probably not worth using
<clever> what was it about dos himem that made it so complicated to configure?
<zid> If your computer can't fit a few hundred k at 1MB it's broken sorry
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<zid> did another internet congolmerate start having issues again or something
<zid> half my stuff is super laggy
<gog> idk i've been having youtube issues for weeks now
<gog> everything else seems to be fine
<zid> we must use different porn sites
<gog> i only look at bespoke artisan porn, i have good tastes
<zid> I only look at conceptual erotic art
<zid> the concept is that they're all naked
<gog> good concept
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<geist> sham1: generally agree though for isa dma <640K is generally sufficient
<geist> not a lot of 24 bit but not 32 bit dma stuff floating around
<geist> for < 640k you can just chop it into 10 64k blocks and then have a simple bitmap allocator for ISA dma purposes
<geist> to use for bounce buffers or for a driver to claim. 10 is probably sufficient given the amount of isa dma devices that still may exist
<clever> i have been thinking about how adding similar limitations on an rpi would improve dma latency
<clever> because of how non-coherent dma is on the rpi hw, you must flush everything to dram, and then tell the dma hw to read back from dram
<clever> and that must suck for latency?