klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<moon-child> sure. But fast rendering means it happens a lot less in practice
<klange> That's why I'm getting out of this game. The ceiling is too high and you will never get close to it. Doing things from scratch, you'll never even approach the state-of-the art.
<moon-child> and: it doesn't come up so much outside of graphics, because you don't have much of a choice: you have to retain coherent state
<moon-child> only in signal processing can you cheat
<moon-child> klange: I think you pushed a lot closer to the ceiling than pretty much anyone else
<zid> signal processing being "anything that interacts with a user or another computer" :P
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<zid> clearly what we need is tcp window scaling, but for.. window events
<zid> window window scaling scaling
<zid> so that your window scale events can scale
<moon-child> lol
<geist> yah the whole flying too close to the sun thing
<geist> thats always been my ceiling. i reallt only like to do kernel stuff, so at some point your kernel gets 'good enough' that any additional work is just polish
<geist> or extreme diminishing returns and/or just adding more instability (simple code is easier to debug, etc)
<kazinsal> yeah, at a certain point you end up tracing bugs through dozens of modules and it starts to become really unfun
<zid> That's why I never have goals
<zid> goals are evil, just do what's fun
<klange> I am glad I could get 2.0 out and meet the two main goals for it (64-bit, SMP) as well as clean up the kernel with the rewrite, even if it does still have disastrous bugs around signals.
<klange> But after ten years of trying to take a hobby and turn it into a career, without success and with a stark reminder of the futility of this work in achieving that goal...
<klange> ... combined with feeling like I'm back to the point where it's just a grind - more device drivers that to do the same things, struggling with that "90% done, 90% to go" march towards compliance with standards...
<klange> ... it's just time to focus on something else that still has that spark of fun for me. Right now that's my Python clone and my editor, both of which were projects that came out of the OS so it's not all a complete loss.
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<klange> It's... quite a contrast, working on these things that are actually viable. I use my editor constantly, it uses my language for syntax highlighting. These are things I have put far less time into compared to the OS, but they are already usable. The barrier to entry for having a useful thing is so much lower.
<Clockface> that is encouraging
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<Clockface> the
<Clockface> bit about useful things being far quicker than the reimplementations of things
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<Clockface> i misread that, crap
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<klange> It's not even the reimplementation of things. I think it's just... operating systems as a whole. It's not a place where you can reach viability with hard work and persistence. It was in the 90s, when Linus started on Linux, but it's not any more. And it applies to platforms in general - browsers are the new thing.
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<klange> There was a time when you could reasonably browse the web in one of the hand-built text-mode browsers, or Netsurf, or any of a dozen engines. Now there is zero chance of every building a new browser engine from scratch that will ever work well enough to matter, even Firefox can't keep up.
<klange> Categories of things that have escaped the realm of mere mortals.
<moon-child> I know somebody who was working on a browser back in the early 2000s or so
<moon-child> unsurprisingly, he no longer works on it :P
<Clockface> its like working on a nuclear reactor instead of a model steam engine
<Clockface> ?
<zid> someone actually got google docs working in a browser that isn't ff or chrome
<zid> and by someone I mean, a software project with a whole bunch of people
<zid> just to see if they could
<zid> their conclusion was "It's impossible don't bother"
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<Clockface> my current ambition is to have something that can load programs into memory and provide a way to call them later (probably with a shell type thing)
<klange> < Clockface> its like working on a nuclear reactor instead of a model steam engine
<zid> see all of those things sound hard so I didn't bother
<zid> but.. it does respond to ping, because that was easy!? technology is weird.
<klange> It's more like building an actual steam engine in a world where they are so pitifully useless not even a developing nation would use them compared to a state-of-the-art nuclear reactor
<kazinsal> in this metaphor, buying a CANDU reactor is a RHEL subscription
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<klange> With OSes you can achieve parity and even vastly overtake the functionality of an OS from a few decades ago, even targeting the same hardware as those OSes did.
<moon-child> hm, I think the metaphor is not entirely apt, because the difference between a hobby os and a production one is one of degree, not kind
<klange> But that means nothing if you want to compare your OS to what the real world is using now.
<moon-child> but there's no upgrade path from a steam engine to a nuclear reactor
<Clockface> what about BWR
<klange> moon-child: nuclear reactors _are_ steam engines, with a very particular steam generation source
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<moon-child> klange: sure, but there are complications. If you're burning wood or coal you don't care about that heat escaping
<kazinsal> steam engines made with spicy rocks
<klange> Nuclear fission is the Nvidia GPU or the 10gbit NIC.
<moon-child> err, that steam
<klange> Or the myriad of existing software.
<moon-child> not so with nuclear, so you need additional containment and transfer. There's more that's different than that's the same
<zid> steam engines are when you put the black tangy rock in, nuclear engines are when you put the grey tangy rock in
<Clockface> steam engines are just heat exchangers with smokey flames > water transfer
<Clockface> nuclear reactors have heat exchangers too, they power several steam engines
<zid> They both have REAL bad issues with running out of water
<zid> like, run away really fast issues
<klange> I used to throw around a toy train set metaphor, but I don't think that really gets the point across. It's more like the industry is building shinkansens and you're building a handcart. They'll both run on the track if you build them to the right gauge, and a millenia ago that handcart was state-of-the-art, but you're not remotely close to being in the same league.
<zid> I think more close is handmade timepieces
<zid> cnc vs hand files, but you still end up with the same product... eventually
<Clockface> if you arent shooting for state of the art, its still just fine to have a novelty to put in a VM or usb
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<klange> Sure, just don't get it into your head that you've got any experience with rail car design even if you've put in the decade of work to upgrade your handcart into a steam engine.
<zid> still lots of engineering experience though
<klange> My particular situation is like thinking a lemonade stand is "beverage production business management" experience...
<Clockface> you know more about it than if you never had a lemonaid stand in the first place
<Clockface> *lemonade
<klange> But taking a factory tour of a lemonade plant would be more worth your time.
<Clockface> true
<klange> I think that's probably the most apt metaphor for how I feel about osdev now. You can grow your own lemons, harvest your own sugar, get your own water from a spring, and spend ten years selling it at your local farmer's market, and not a single aspect of that is relevant to the production of industrial mass-produced lemonade, so don't think it will ever help you get a job at [Big Company that makes an OS].
<Clockface> this isnt supposed to be productive for me, i just think its interesting and i want to make my glorified bootloader with bonuses
<Clockface> i do not know how far i will get, but its interesting to work on regardless
<Clockface> its a hobby, like building a model railway
<klange> I don't even know where I'm going with this rant.
<Clockface> you seem like you are having a tough time
<klange> I wanted it to be more than a hobby, I was mistaken in thinking that having done it as a hobby for so long would maybe possibly qualify as an ounce of experience, and someone finally decided to break the news to me.
<klange> So maybe just let it be a lesson. There are industries where hobbies can translate to careers. OSdev is not one of them.
<Clockface> the guy watching his little trains go around in circles is still probably having more fun than the engineer babysitting a freight train all day
<Mutabah> Sure they can - if that's their goal.
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<Mutabah> However, we (used to?) see a lot of people here who wanted to make a semi-usable OS, and then said they wanted tos tart at a bootsector
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* Mutabah goes to properly read scrollback
<Clockface> i made a
<Clockface> bootable print to BIOS thing a year ago, then i remembered osdev.org exists and got interested in ibm pc compatibles again
<Clockface> and now i havent done anything but at least i wrote down more of what im going to do
<Clockface> i doubt i will stick with this for too long as i never really do
<Clockface> but it would be nice to have something to show off and then crash because of a syntax error at the command prompt
<Mutabah> Ah, the above wasn't a "don't do bootsector" rant.
<Clockface> mine is supposed to go with GRUB
<moon-child> you know, I think the most apt metaphor is really
<moon-child> a
<moon-child> a hobbyist os vs a production-viable os
<Mutabah> :)
<bauen1> you learn quite a few things when writing / designing an operating system, related software and infrastructure, so it's pretty much the opposite of wasting time
<Mutabah> As long as you treat it as abstract learning.
<clever> my goal is to make a functional os on hw where no open source os exists
<Mutabah> klange: I think you were both lucky and unlucky. You had probably the most success at pushing towards mainstream of all of us...
<clever> so i'm choosing to not waste time on parts (malloc, threading) that are already in the open source world
<Mutabah> with the downsides that brings.
<Clockface> mine is supposed to be extendable, the "command prompt that crashes with a syntax error" could easily be substituted for the "kernel?" of something more advanced
<clever> Clockface: yeah, mine already has a compile-time module framework (it came free with the kernel), so i can easily add optional features
<Clockface> so i could lose interest in it and if someone ever wants to do something they have something to build off of
<Clockface> mine keeps the kernel binary modules in files, and loads them into memory
<Clockface> when it loads each file, im designing it to assign a 12 character ascii "label" to each one
<Clockface> if another kernel space thing wants to call it they can use the "label" phonebook to see what the memory location that module got loaded to is
<clever> i dont have any runtime module support
<Clockface> mine is just some .txt files and a GRUB header, so im not too far along
<Clockface> it shouldent be too far to implement though, its simple enough to implement
<Clockface> *hard
<geist> yeah, exactly. re: losing interest and people build on it
<geist> you can indirectly help other people that way, which is kinda nice in its own way
<Mutabah> It's what I do
<Mutabah> I've spent the last few years on a compiler
<Clockface> while im here, GRUB what you tell it to load into a predictable spot in memory right?
<Mutabah> I'm pretty sure grub honors the load/physical address field in ELF
<Clockface> awesome
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<clever> Clockface: oh, you may want to look at dlopen and dlsym on linux
<heat> GRUB + multiboot2 can dynamically load you in memory if you have a PIE kernel
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<klange> > you may want to look at dlopen and dlsym on linux
<klange> Those would be in glibc / ld-linux.so, or in musl, and as complete real-world implementations that are quite complicated.
<klange> This is literally why I did what I did with ToaruOS over the last several years; it does the thing, but more simplerly. https://github.com/klange/toaruos/blob/master/linker/linker.c
<bslsk05> ​github.com: toaruos/linker.c at master · klange/toaruos · GitHub
<heat> klange, /bin/ld.toaru when?
<clever> klange: but it can serve as an idea on how to build your own runtime module loader
<heat> clever, a kernel module loader is wayyy simpler than ld.so
<klange> heat: that _is_, effectively, /bin/ld.toaru
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<klange> My kernel module loader is over here, it links static objects like Linux, different process from linking shared objects: https://github.com/klange/toaruos/blob/master/kernel/misc/elf64.c#L42
<bslsk05> ​github.com: toaruos/elf64.c at master · klange/toaruos · GitHub
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<bslsk05> ​github.com: toaruos/elf64.c at master · klange/toaruos · GitHub
<heat> sin counter: 1
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<heat> actually a few days I was helping a friend of mine learn C and I noticed he only does allocations using VLAs because he's scared of malloc lol
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<geist> sounds like a smart guy
<clever> VLA's?
<klange> Being scared of malloc is smart, but using VLAs is biting off your nose.
<geist> clever: variable allocs on the stack
<clever> ahh right
<clever> but thats harder to persist long-term
<geist> i mean they're not too bad but generally a dangerous thing for stack constrained environments. if you ever use them really need to make sure you have a hard upper limit
<heat> they also generate horrible code too
<clever> yeah
<clever> ive had the ext2 code fail on LK, when the stack was too small
<clever> it puts 2 inodes on the stack, and blows it hard
<geist> it puts the inodes in the basket
<heat> woah
<clever> and worse, the stack overflow detection never catches it, because i end the thread before a reschedule
<heat> how big is the stack?
<clever> heat: maybe 2kb in some cases
<clever> i had to change some config to just not put the stack there
<heat> inodes aren't that big
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<clever> finding a line# to reference...
<heat> 128 bytes in ext2, ~256 in ext3/4
<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk/dir.c at master · littlekernel/lk · GitHub
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<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk/ext2_fs.h at master · littlekernel/lk · GitHub
<clever> heat: which is ~136 bytes i think
<clever> and ext2_walk is recursive
<heat> hm?
<clever> so each directory element in your path, consumes 272 bytes of stack
<heat> inodes are 128 bytes
<heat> that's just how they do be
<clever> heat: i may have mis-counted the bytes in the struct i linked
<clever> but thats still 256 bytes for each dir, so /a/b/c/foo.txt takes up 1536 bytes
<clever> oh wait, its only for symlinks
<clever> normal dirs are handled by the while loop
<clever> but its probably my fault, for just having so little space in the stack
<moon-child> I have used vlas before, but only for convenience
<heat> clever: why do you have 3 pull requests
<clever> heat: i have a bad habbit of not finishing things, really need to finish those PR's
<geist> yah i'd actually like to revisit that driver at some point
<geist> but would like to get your changes in first
<geist> then i was thinking about gutting it and morphing it into something more substantial
<clever> the pl011 or the ext2/3/4?
<geist> ext2
<geist> the pl011 would be nice too
<clever> ah, i'll try to remember to check on them next weekend
<bslsk05> ​godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
<clever> i was thinking about implementing a `sha256 --check` command, so i could generate a tree or random files/folders/symlinks, hash them, then validate under lk
<clever> there where bugs involving files in the 2nd block group
<clever> that only turned up when using a real os disk image
<clever> ive fixed them, but it reveals flaws in my testing
<heat> quick reminder that there is an *excellent* ext4 driver in edk2 written by a genius that can be used as a point of reference
<bslsk05> ​github.com: edk2-platforms/Features/Ext4Pkg/Ext4Dxe at master · tianocore/edk2-platforms · GitHub
<clever> heat: but is it compatible with LK's license?
<heat> yeah bsd-2-clause
<clever> ah, so i could just replace the ext2 driver entirely
<clever> does it also have write support?
<heat> no
<heat> not yet at least
<heat> and I, oops, the author, hasn't added ext2 support but that's just having a branch in ext4_read() that takes you to bmap code
<heat> also the code style is super different from lk
<heat> theoretically write support shouldn't be too hard
<heat> the ext2 bmap path is relatively simple I guess
<heat> not sure about ext4's extents though
<clever> LK's ext driver also lacks write support, and i'm not sure i would want to attempt that
<clever> extents are pretty simple, the problem is more about deciding what blocks to allocate
<heat> yeah like maybe write support isn't really required for lower level things like these
<clever> write support is something ive been wanting, it would make data capture for some testing far simpler
<geist> agreed
<heat> for example apple's filesystem isn't writable in the firmware and that's why they have a FAT32 fs (for firmware update capsules)
<clever> currently, my only way to export data is to either hexdump it to the serial port, or boot full linux on another core and exchange it over
<clever> its fine for a one-off rom dump
<clever> but when i begin messing with graphical stuff, and have to take a dozen screenshots a day.....
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<Jari--> sure deal - but first a C64 demo in Assembly language, then I can continue on JTMOS Kernel OS Project
<geist> word
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<sham1> L
<sham1> Oh yes, VLAs
<zid> VLAs indeed
<zid> (what?)
<sham1> I was reading the scrollback
<sham1> But yeah. VLAs are... tricky
<zid> they're not tricky but they're basically unusable if you want your shit to be portable/reliable
<sham1> The only place where I've seen them being useful is stuff like float (*mat)[n][m] = malloc(sizeof(*mat));
<sham1> That is, one doesn't allocate them on the stack, but on the heap
<zid> I use imaginary VLAs with sizeof to make the syntax nicer :P
<zid> that isn't a VLA
<sham1> Yes it is
<sham1> It's a pointer to a VLA
<moon-child> int mul(int x, int y) { return sizeof(char[x][y]); }
<zid> moon-child: exactly
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<zid> float (*a)[2][3]; "declare a as pointer to array 2 of array 3 of float"
<zid> how does your thing even.. work? Hrmph
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<zid> Pointer to unspecified size array of arrays.. would need vla *mechanics* to work, but isn't itself a vla
<zid> confusing
<klange> It's confusing overlap in terminology between that usage and stack allocations.
<zid> Let's all stick to FAMs
<zid> also, hot dang it's cold this morning
<zid> It's An degree, apparently.
<sham1> I think the standard does call that a VLA, but that's getting more into the territory of #C
<moon-child> can somebody please explain what the deal is with leetcode? Because I really don't ge tit
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<sham1> Supposedly helps one get hired by doing all these challenged
<zid> some of it is kinda fun
<zid> most of it is not
<kazinsal> they're whiteboard questions for silicon valley tech startups
<kazinsal> you are basically doing the most obnoxious part of the interview process so often on your own time that you can do it without really having to put any effort in when you go to do it for real
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<moon-child> I mean that makes sense but ... I see stuff like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26468248 and -really_ don't know what to make of it
<bslsk05> ​news.ycombinator.com: 5 years of leetcode with no progress. I'm giving up | Hacker News
<zid> I mean, some people are just mental
<kazinsal> "I am quitting programming out of humility and recognition of my limitations. It’s ok to give up and wise to do so when you aren't good enough for something." what the fuck
<kazinsal> HN commenters are among the most bizarre fucking people on this planet
<sham1> Yes they are
<klange> Notably, Hacker News is not a programming forum. It's a startup forum.
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<kazinsal> yeah, paul graham is a venture capitalist first and a programmer second
<kazinsal> this means that HN is full of bonkers libertarian programmers who think they're venture capitalists
<moon-child> I don't think that's quite the problem
<moon-child> I mean
<moon-child> it's not like (say) reddit is any better
<moon-child> it's more: internet forum at scale (startup flavoured)
<kazinsal> it's also a moderation problem
<kazinsal> if you have little moderation and a staff that are also all unhinged true believer types then you get an echo chamber
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<Jari--> tough shit doing osdev, no deal
<moon-child> can't have shit in os
<Jari--> meaning the amount of dedication lost on existing projects, which stopped for a reason
<Jari--> probably most on funding, and focusing on too extra verbose category, area of focus
<Jari--> cloud os probably, which runs on a virtualization, has networking.. this is good... uIP kernels pretty neat e.g.
<Jari--> uIP = TCP/IP stack that runs in 64K RAM system, even on a Commodore 64
<Jari--> C code
<Jari--> besides, I have been thinking how to make a memory management... basically all I am doing next, is to make it 64K segmented banks, all memory almost is like this, better manageable
<moon-child> kazinsal: I think hn moderation is actually decent. The problem is it's hard to moderate low-quality discussion
<Jari--> moon-child: does anyone have automatically expansionable stacks in kernels / OS ?
<Jari--> Linux wise (like)
<moon-child> Jari--: sure
<moon-child> overcommit is thattaways
<Jari--> e.g. I spent hours fixing working code.. all I had to do to fix was to expand the fixed stack size
<Jari--> MS-DOS code... typical how they crash it
<moon-child> can also CPS and ditch the stack
<Jari--> moon-child: is it safe to do an exception, segmentation fault.. catch it up and handle and expand the pages ? I feel like it is quite delicate thing to do. But I am going to do this as well.
<Jari--> sbrk function in libc helps in guidance of this
<moon-child> Jari--: in kernel space, you must be careful. What if there's no free memory, so you have to swap something out, so you have to do a bunch of work in your vm system and disc driver?
<moon-child> so, switch to an alt stack, be careful specifically in vm&disc to use bounded stack space? Could work. But fragile
<sham1> I don't think you'd need much stack anyway on an OS kernel
<sham1> Maybe 16 K or 32 K max
<sham1> Since you probably shouldn't be doing all that much recursion nor allocating big things on the stack
<moon-child> sham1: sure. But plan for the worst
<sham1> Sure
<moon-child> some environments, if you don't recurse, you can statically calculate max stack usage
<moon-child> that is cool
<moon-child> but I don't think mainstream compilers (gcc/clang) will do that today
<Jari--> moon-child: and it helps a lot if your HD driver does not do any interrupts, purely I/O (PIO)
<Jari--> non-queued interrupts that is
<Jari--> stability conformed
<moon-child> yeah
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<Jari--> I wanted a good script, so I made autogen.pl
<Jari--> it builds only whats new
<Jari--> and it is about 75 lines of Perl code
<Jari--> autoconf and automake for kernel... well if you are that much a hero
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<superleaf1995> hi
<GeDaMo> Hi superleaf1995 :)
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<superleaf1995> welp
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<sham1> mov
<GeDaMo> add
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<Oli> asl
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<heat> everybody gangsta until acpi source language shows up
<sham1> mmhm
<superleaf1995> everybody gangsta till Java OS
<bauen1> those are all your smallest problems when Enterprise Java rolls through the door
<heat> log4j dmesg?
<heat> sounds great
<sortie> oh lol it just occurred to me that the last week of osdev time has been spent on logs
<sortie> gimme em syslog4j vulns
<heat> my last week of osdev time has been spent on football manager and watching football
<heat> and a bit of device files
<heat> tiny tiny bit
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<bauen1> heat: does updating the copyright year count ? :D
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<sham1> git hookk
<heat> dont update the year if you didn't touch the file in the new year
<heat> there ya go, problem solved
<sham1> Thus: git hook
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<superleaf1995> when the memory manager is
<superleaf1995> stack based
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