klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<geist> probably no reason to, but i wonder what a modern equivalent of a merlin would look like
<zid> like a merlin, tbh
<zid> big engine looks like a big engine
<geist> if you started off with a lighter engine block and used more modern computerized injection, might be substantially crap hanging off it
<zid> just it'd have a few wires going to a loom for some management and monitoring
<zid> you might be able to make the same horsepower smaller etc
<geist> may be you can get a lot more horsepower out of a smaller block though
<zid> with better block design etc
<zid> exactly
<geist> yeah, not saying it'd be as impressive, etc, just thinking
<dh`> good question, I don't think anyone builds radial engines for light planes these days
<geist> a merlin is a V12, it's just a bigass block though
<dh`> huh, I thought they were radial
<dh`> shows how much I know
<geist> looks like.... 27L displacement
<geist> it's entirely possible there are light plane, non turboprops that have similar performance modern ICE engines
<kazinsal> I imagine if someone was going to cook up a four digit cubic inch displacement V12 that sounds like the devil and sucks gas like a mad max bandit with a siphoning tube it would be mopar
<geist> but maybe not. may be there's no point building something like that now, since you're better off going turbine
<geist> nice, discord is classy. someone learned i worked on zircon and then went on a rant about how he dispises everything i do and wishes i'd fail
<geist> well, okay then. keep it classy guy
<kazinsal> yeah I'm not in any really public discords because honestly fuck most people
<kazinsal> it's amazing how the internet is just full of the most atrocious people that the universe saw fit to unleash upon the world
<zid> geist: is he mad it isn't a real microkernel
<geist> zid: actually no, going on about how microkernels are a 'meme' etc
<zid> kazinsal: internet has a lack of punch in the mouth problem is all
<geist> and CISC, mono, etc. and etc etc
<geist> like, okay man.
<zid> I mean, microkernels are a meme, but that's for playfully ribbing microkernel devs with
<zid> not going on hysterical rants about
<geist> yeah i mean sure, it's fun to playfully rib
<geist> exactly
<geist> you know, rant for a few lines and put a smiley face.
<geist> or dont. and maybe not someone you literally just met
<zid> zircon cares too much about performance to be a real microkernel so you're fine anyway
<zid> (Do you see what I did there, I said microkernels are slow, hahahahaha)
<kazinsal> the problem with the idea of an osdev discord is that it's going to be full of the twelve year olds
<geist> noice. glad you explained it :)
<zid> np babe
<zid> kazinsal: It used to be astrophysics
<geist> 12 year olds are one thing, but i also think there's just a bit more of a meanness to that style of comms
<kazinsal> little timmy's first python script was too simple for the helicopter-parent-induced god complex he has so now he's trying to write an operating system in bash
<zid> The crazies would write hand written letters to professors about their theories of the universe and perpetual motion etc
<zid> now they just join ircs and discords to do it
<geist> much how lots of internet forums go instantly to flamewars, etc (also a think i never participate in)
<zid> I've yet to see a discord that was actually moderated, either
<zid> this channel isn't really moderated either but we managed to luck into some people that don't fight
<geist> you can, it's just very time consuming, presumably because people assume they can just be asshats
<zid> ..much
<geist> but maybe it's simply beause we've whittled it down to a handful of people, and so statiscally speaking there's less BS
<geist> and if we had 5 or 10x as many active users here it'd turn into a disaster
<geist> like some sort of non linear relationship of active users to BS
<geist> and we're in or below the sweet spot, maybe
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<zid> yea that also helps
<zid> maybe it's the birthday paradox
<dh`> based on experience with similar issues in other domains I'd say there's a certain quality control filter applied by the fact that your basic bozo doesn't know how to operate an irc client
<zid> We all fight with 1/365ths of the users
<geist> dh`: yah that's been my suspicion
<geist> hmm, anyone here born on jan 2nd?
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<geist> cause we have to fight, highlander style
<geist> speaking of bday paradox i actually just a few years ago ended up sitting next to two people in my office that had the same bday
<kazinsal> we have fewer drive bys now than we did on freenode I've noticed
<geist> yah reminds me i still need to get my dad set up on here again
<geist> he had a client pointing at freenode, but never re-set it up when it switched
<kazinsal> at this point I think if someone is aiming to seek out IRC directly and go through the hoops of nickserving up etc. there's a fair chance they're going to hang around and contribute
<geist> also funny about the time we switched it said screw it and finally went in on irccloud
<geist> end of an era, dont really need a shell box with irssi anymore
<geist> irccloud works well enough, and is better at doing simple formatting too
<kazinsal> yeah, I'm considering switching over as well. would make checking in on IRC on my phone easier
<geist> yeah it's pretty decent, honestly
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<kaichiuchu> i've considered irccloud, but our past bretheren once banned irccloud on freenode
<kaichiuchu> i'm concerned they'll do the same thing here
<geist> well, i was just about to point out that irccloud also sealed ever going back to freenode since Dude banned it
<geist> nah, he banned it because irccloud tweeted something that hurt his inner child
<geist> no real technical reason
<kaichiuchu> ah
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<junon> geist: I won't say which day but recently I shared my birthday with a guy I dated, a coworker, and a mutual friend - all without knowing until about 48 hours before. I do not have a large social circle.
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<zid> 1.99.999999 in a few weeks?
<junon> klange in january marks 11 years of working on ToaruOS, did you work on it completely through those 11 years or did you take any significant breaks?
<junon> (11 years if my idiot brain math is correct :D)
<klange> 11 years is correct
<junon> That's incredible.
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<klange> It's been on-and-off. The last year has been very consistent, but 2020 I did next to nothing, 2019 I was mostly working on my editor...
<junon> How many hours a week on average do you think you devoted to it over the years? I'm sure that number varies a lot but less than 10? More than 20? 40?
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<klange> Hard to say. I would bet the number is pretty low overall. I'm very sporadic. It's not like I set aside dedicated time.
<junon> Sounds about right. It is, unfortunately, very much a hobby for most :\
<klange> Used to be a lot of days I would be up late into the night trying to hack on something; don't do that much anymore - the meds help :)
<junon> I can certainly relate. (:
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<ZetItUp> it's snowing outside :(
<ZetItUp> btw i have design issues with mountpoints, since im using FAT32 as fs, should i just go over each partition and say "Hey partition 0, you are now known as IDx", or should i save some table in the kernel where i go Partition 0 = IDx? where IDx is some ID
<kazinsal> mount points are often a userspace problem -- do whatever the sysadmin tells you
<Mutabah> Probably a table?
<ZetItUp> hmm true
<Mutabah> Not sure I understand where you issue is?
<zid> not sure how you'd tell a partition anything
<zid> or for why
<Mutabah> Usually you'd have a map that determines which filesystem is used for a given path
<kazinsal> yeah I'm a bit curious as to what the issue is, how to lay it out in memory, or how to bolt mount points into a VFS
<kazinsal> or how to lay it out as a config, etc
<zid> what's the "it" here though
<ZetItUp> bolt mount points into the VFS
<zid> vfs layer is typically only giving a shit about resolving paths to LBA + device pointer
<ZetItUp> im thinking around the windows style of A/B/C/D: etc
<kazinsal> then you just need to keep a mapping of what volume label maps to what logical filesystem on what device
<ZetItUp> yeah, but where would be a good place to store that mapping? kernel space? some file on the disk?
<ZetItUp> can't really decide hehe
<kazinsal> some file on the boot disk
<kazinsal> then load it into your VFS at boot t ime
<kazinsal> you can even do that part in userspace, just expose a mount() call
<ZetItUp> that seems like a good way
<kazinsal> kernel automatically mounts the device it boots from to eg. boot:, then your userspace init loads boot:config/filesystems.cfg and for each valid entry it does mount(stuff based on entry)
<kazinsal> this is functionally how /etc/fstab works
<ZetItUp> ah that makes sense
<zid> windows has 'device paths' for this reason btw
<zid> the //Device0/?/C/kaz/ stuff
<zid> \\.\Volume{b738473-348939483-34893\test\kaz.txt
<ZetItUp> yeah i guess the issue was mostly, where to store it hehe
<ZetItUp> or how to handle it
<kazinsal> the NT VFS is really complex
<zid> (and slow)
<ZetItUp> i guess there really isn't any "right or wrong" way of doing it
<kazinsal> you can do stuff like \\?\GLOBALROOT\Device\WebDavRedirector\\foo\bar
<zid> ZetItUp: Do you plan to have an 'internal' name that userspace can even translate to?
<ZetItUp> yeah
<zid> so it's up to you I guess then, if it's in userspace you can use it as like, userspace aliasing
<zid> to allow drive letters to change to representing different devices
<zid> idk how useful that is though
<ZetItUp> yeah it's probably just gonna be used on bootup
<zid> so like how I only use (root0,0) for grub? :P
<ZetItUp> or i just do hda, hdb, hdc or something like that :P
<zid> sounds like it then yea
<ZetItUp> good thing i started to think about this now, cause i think i would have to rewrite alot of stuff later if i dont :P only a couple of lines now thou :D
<zid> yea I spent most of my time staring at notepad making notes
<zid> instead of actually coding
<ZetItUp> right now for this i just read straight from the disk without a vfs, like this https://i.gyazo.com/c85ee9f0d1716e438f6f38b55725adab.png
<ZetItUp> sure it works, but it was kinda annoying to write it like that :P
<ZetItUp> speaking of something unrelated, i hate my neighbours, i live with my windows to the parking lot, there is like 5 meters to the parkings, EVERYONE fucking slams the doors on their cars when they comes or leaves
<ZetItUp> during this hour (6AM-9:30AM) all i hear is SLAM SLAM SLAM WROOM WROOM
<ZetItUp> and eventually someone forgetting to put in the gear and just revs his engine WROOOOOM
<ZetItUp> Rant Over
<wleslie> sound-activated water balloon launcher
<zid> is it actually for 386
<geist> huh interesting. never noticed this before but the generator .ctor section from gcc at least seems to mark it as writable
<geist> i wonder why? seems like it'd just be a RO section. maybe it's a relocation thing where it clusters it in a RW section of the binary?
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<zid> what if you wanna mark em off as done as you go? :P
<geist> possible. maybe there are some implementations that do that
<geist> set an atomic that it's already been run orsomething
<zid> idk how resolveable the order you need to run things is and whether you need to track whether a certain constructor has already ran when you're parsing it all
<zid> or if the linker figures it all out and puts them in the right order
<klange> aw did i miss a discussion on paths and vfs
<zid> not especially
<geist> hmm, that's always alarming. just heard a tree come down in the woods outside my house
<geist> went out and can't see it, so it must have been fairly big and farther away
<klange> I probably should have built a new VFS for Misaka but I just ported over the one from toaru32. It has some... unique quirks.
<klange> But it works okay, gives the impression of a functioning system at least.
<zid> close enough then
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<zid> The internet has informed me that there is no time to die
<zid> how do those enp names get generated btw
<zid> I take it you're using the 'proper' schema seeing as it ends in 17?
<zid> I always use the old style, never learned wtf the new ones mean
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<zid> ethernet's always gunna be funny though, there isn't really anything identifying about them other than MAC and that's after drivers are loaded, and is still software configurable
<klange> pXsY → p for PCI, bus X, s for slot Y
<zid> ah I see
<zid> Enjoy.. slot 17!?
<klange> 00:11
<klange> I confused myself for a minute there looking at lspci output but then I remembered that uses hexdecimal
<zid> oh your machine just has a bunch of early stuff like bridges and vga and stuff I take it?
<zid> not physical slot, bus childo
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<klange> This screenshot is from VirtualBox which places things a bit sparsely
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<klange> My laptop has enp0s25 ;)
<zid> laptops are full of bullshit
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<klange> little more straightforward in qemu :) https://klange.dev/s/qemu-ifconfig.png
<zid> looks like vmware goes up to like 20, then starts a new bus for my ethernet
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<chibill[m]> I am very annoyed right now. Can't get at my OSDev stuff because my home internet is out, so I can't connect into my server.
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<Bitweasil> That's why you dev locally.
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<Qubasa> Does someone know how to get the memory map if I boot over PXE with ipxe and then into my x86 bootloader? I checked the ipxe source but they don't place a pointer into any register when jumping into the loaded image
<kazinsal> PXE should drop you in real mode, use the BIOS E820 memory map functions to build a map
<bslsk05> ​www.uruk.org: INT 15h, AX=E820h - Query System Address Map
<Qubasa> ah hmm i don't boot with PXE directly but PXE into IPXE
<Qubasa> and IPXE drops me into protected mode
<Qubasa> pxe -> ipxe -> bootloader
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<Bitweasil-> Scan for ACPI tables? :/
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<Qubasa> Found it out. You need to set some special make flags to make this wor
<Qubasa> k
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<jjuran> If a tree falls down in the woods and nobody sees it, does it make a scene?
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<vin> I am little confused, in ext4 if two threads are writing to the same inode/file at different offsets in parallel, would a lock be acquired on the file making the writes sequential?
<moon-child> atomicity is not generally guaranteed in such situations, no. You will of course have to maintain valid kernel/fs state
<vin> So parallel writes to a single fiile are sequential to make it crash consistent?
<immibis> jjuran: a scene requires at least one camera and at least one light
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