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<zid>
where's my bucket of blood
<zid>
you guys are annoyingly slow
<jjuran>
What? Go make it yourself.
<zid>
It can't be my blood
<kazinsal>
blood harvest cancelled on account of me having a new chorus pedal to futz around with
<sham1>
Not enough donors
<zid>
You don't have to get them to donate
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<sham1>
Involuntary donors are also not available
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<graphitemaster>
I really hate Python's lexical scoping
<graphitemaster>
Wasted hours wondering why assignment to a global variable didn't work in a function because I need to declare it as global in the function.
<junon>
where everything is global unless you specifically say it's local.
<j`ey>
klange: why does that print 1, if I hit enter?
<klange>
Line number of your blank input
<j`ey>
oh
<graphitemaster>
How the hell do you even declare a variable in this thing lol
<klange>
It prints a _lot_ of 1's in a normal session :D
<graphitemaster>
I broke the language, browser locked up
<klange>
I was complimented on the quality of the tutorial, so I would take a look at that.
<junon>
let a = 10
<graphitemaster>
All I typed was `E := False` and then the entire interpreter is dead :D
<graphitemaster>
Weird, not happening now
<klange>
That sounds like a browser problem and could well be in part of the somewhat-janky REPL setup.
<klange>
The input is an Ace instance, which gives the highlighting - derived from their stock Python highlighter. Colorscheme is my own, the one I designed for my editor.
<graphitemaster>
Yeah if I leave the REPL and come back after awhile it's just dead
<graphitemaster>
That's the probllem
<klange>
What browser?
<graphitemaster>
Firefox
<klange>
Anything of interest in your setup? Firefox is my main browser and I did all of the dev testing in it.
<klange>
The main page runs code in a bog-standard WASM build of the interpreter, which runs on the main thread, so if it's busy it can potentially lock things up a bit - not made for heavy production code.
<klange>
I built a web IDE, which runs code in a worker thread instead, it's usually a lot more cooperative.
<klange>
The main page is meant primarily for clicking through the tutorial (it's interactive!)
<klange>
Alternatively, you could do a native build, or grab a ToaruOS build from the last ~9 months.
<klange>
But really I was just posting because Kuroko is literally a dialect of Python without the lexical scoping and you probably have other requirements for a language than just that one complaint :)
<graphitemaster>
:|
<graphitemaster>
Just a regular Firefox
<klange>
Anything revealing in the dev console?
<graphitemaster>
Yeah a bunch of "Could not write session state file" errors
<graphitemaster>
Aside from that nothing
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* geist
senses one of those hard at work montages is happening somewhere as klange gets to the bottom of it
<zid>
I'm going to make a web SATA, it's like an IDE but the commands are nicer and it's way faster
<geist>
I’m going to build a larger than life 8253 PIT timer and use it as an alarm clock
<geist>
Though actually i guess I want a RTC for that
<klange>
MC146818A
<zid>
Are you going to cheat and wire up a 555 inside it
<geist>
I dunno, but I’m precisely thinking about one of those evil bad scientist 555 kits
<geist>
Like a huge chip on the table, maybe with a little LCD on it
<klange>
I remember something about an RTC that was originally intended for watches, and it was used in a computer by reading the segment lines and converting them back into digits...
<geist>
Evil mad scientist that is
<klange>
That had to have been from a CuriousMarc video...
<bslsk05>
'Playing with an early LED watch chip from Texas Instruments' by CuriousMarc (00:22:08)
<zid>
I mean it's not like the bombe or whatever was small
<geist>
Yah i remember that one
<klange>
TI watch chip powers an HP RTC module, which drives the watch chip by reading its segment output and pushing its "buttons".
<geist>
Also looks like my buddy eric is back to fix the PS/2
<geist>
I sat next to him at work for a couple years
<zid>
The ps2/ is now fixed
<geist>
Yah!
<klange>
Didn't a lot of RTC modules use BCD specifically because it was easier to then use to drive segment displays?
<klange>
And that's why that's still a gotcha listed on our wiki to this day~
<zid>
binary to dec is sorta annoying to do at full width, when all you're doing is incrementing by 1 I imagine 'BCD' is easier
<zid>
and by easier I mean fewer gates, which in 1970 is important
<zid>
just wrap each digit at 9 or 6 or 2 or 1, bam
<geist>
Yah i bet that’s true: if you’re driving a 7 segment then you can do the carry logic just as easily as binary but you have no conversion to actually display it
<geist>
And really BCD is pretty nice for simple asm routines to display stuff on the screen, etc
<geist>
In an 8 bit era at least, without proper divide or multiply or whatnot
<zid>
4 input AND gate or whatever to detect the overflow and connect it to a reset line
<geist>
Hmm, did the bcd modes get removed in x86-64?
<zid>
yea
<geist>
Maybe those opcodes were recycled?
<zid>
It's actually really annoying for emulation
<zid>
you have to implement them now
<zid>
*shakes fist*
<geist>
Of course that then means what happens on a modern x86 machine under the hood when it’s in real mode and you do BCD math
<zid>
I saw a great patch
<geist>
Is there actually a BCD path in the ALUs or does it flip to some sort of slow ass microcode?
<zid>
it was like case BCD_ADD: +#if 64BIT +*fuck loads of code*
<zid>
#else if emit("adc");
<geist>
But that’d be easy to tell with agner’s opcode tables if he tests the BCD instructions. If they’re usually slow, then yep. Microcode
<zid>
They're usable enough for emulation, where decode and branching and crap is all the cost
<zid>
and it's not like anybody cares about how fast displaying numbers is in their dos game when running it on a modern cpu instead of a 286
<zid>
it's still running at 40000x speed
<geist>
Whoa, flipped on battlestar galactica, that scene where tigh and adama beat the crap out of each other
<geist>
Forgot how dark this show was
<zid>
dark? isn't that the one where they use fake swear words and stuff?
<geist>
Haha, well it was pre-streaming
<kazinsal>
yeah, show debuted in like 2003
<zid>
and I figured it was basically star trek, which was like, Hey Arthur! levels of moral lessons
<kazinsal>
back then the only channel you could really say "fuck" on was HBO
<geist>
Omg no. This is the 2003 era BSG
<geist>
It was very much a product of its era, just after 2001
<kazinsal>
oh yeah, definitely Space Nine Eleven
<zid>
geist, watch made in abyss for me
<geist>
Omg, made in abyss is so good
<geist>
I’m so waiting for S2
<kazinsal>
70s BSG was more like Mormon Star Wars
<zid>
I mean, S2 came and went, effectively
<geist>
Some movie right?
<zid>
yea
<geist>
Need to dig that up, but i bet it’s hella grim dark
<zid>
dawn of a deep soul iirc
<zid>
It's hella grim dark
<geist>
Haha okay, thanks for reminding me
<zid>
Also I think the sound track to made in abyss is probably one of the best scores to anything ever
<geist>
started watching Arcane yesterday on Netflix. It’s really nice looking
<kazinsal>
Arcane is way better than I ever expected a League of Legends TV show to be
<geist>
Unclear if the story will pay off, but it’s very well done
<zid>
a couple of things lately have had some really good tracks, like zimmerman's inception theme and interstellar's organ thing
<zid>
but made in abyss is just solid, every single track
<geist>
kazinsal:yah basically
<zid>
I read all the manga up to current, so I am basically at the end of S3
<kazinsal>
and I say that as someone who (sometimes regrettably) plays the damn game
<zid>
by.. riot games? wtf
<geist>
Thankfully you don’t need to know the story at all, though i guess the little subtle references and character reveals are less impactful
<zid>
league of legends is so absolutely shit of a game, and so exclusively played by toxic 13 year olds I won't touch it just on princple probably
<kazinsal>
yeah, they've done a wonderful job of letting the story of the show do the worldbuilding
<kazinsal>
helps that they honestly haven't given a real solid shit about the lore making sense up to this point so the show can retcon all the "quick, we need a blurb for this champion's background" lore
<geist>
Yah they have something like 140 characters that just fight each other for random reasons? Not much lore there anyway
<geist>
just give each a blurb and move on
<kazinsal>
yeah, there's a whole bunch of worldbuilding and several eras of the game world that they've got slammed together
<kazinsal>
prior to 2014 the lore was even more afuck because the game itself was canon in-universe
<kazinsal>
but that was a nightmare to tell stories in so they canned that
<kazinsal>
they're apparently working on an MMO which is probably why they're going back and slowly retconning the ridiculous stuff
<geist>
I never looked at it much, it’s a moba right?
<kazinsal>
yeah
<geist>
If so, that 100% explains why I never played it
<zid>
One that doesn't understand how rpgs work, which I always found funny, it has the exact same issues poe has
<geist>
Well, if it’s a moba it’s not a rpg anyway right? It’s just this silly repeat of the same scenario over and over again
<zid>
mobas are team based arpgs
<zid>
You level up and buy equipment
<zid>
to kill the other guy gooder
<geist>
Right. The ‘rpg’ part i take a little bit of exception to
<zid>
dota/hon/etc are 100% normal RPG systems
<geist>
But i guess it has some aspects of whati’d consider a RPG, something like Baldurs gate or whatnot
<geist>
Well… okay.
<geist>
I guess definitions change over time
<zid>
You get experience by killing monsters, you level up, allocate skills, buy equipment with like "+3 agi" on it etc
<zid>
It's all based on warcraft 3
<geist>
Well sure.
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<kazinsal>
by that metric fallout 4 is just doom with flavour text
<zid>
fallout is an rpg yes
<geist>
Yeah, i mean. I guess for lack of anything else and if that’s the defacto definition of it, then so be it
<zid>
rpg as in "uses numbers" rather than "is like a D&D campaign"
<kingoffrance>
"definitions change over time" well, key -> value the keys change :D
<kazinsal>
everything uses numbers
<zid>
it typically means the former, rather than the latter
<geist>
But i generally put it more in the bucket of StarCraft or Warcraft or whatnot
<geist>
Just has this additional scenario thing on top of it
<geist>
Which of course is where it came from
<zid>
I understand starcraft not being an RPG, it doesn't function like one at all, but.. warcraft?
<geist>
Warcraft and starcraft are basically the same thing, IMO
<geist>
Just different characters, different art
<zid>
Have you played much of either?
<geist>
Yes, far too much
<zid>
so do you think they're both RPGs or neither are?
<geist>
Neither are
<zid>
Because neither are like D&D, or what?
<kazinsal>
in what damn universe is a real time strategy game an RPG
<geist>
No, because there’s no role playing, there’s no interacting with mobs, etc
<geist>
Real time strategy
<zid>
(I have very strong feelings about what constitutes a roguelike, personally)
<geist>
That’s the word i was going for, but couldn’t think of it
<geist>
To be a RPG has to at least have some sort of maybe quest like things, NPCs that you talk to, some sort of overall story, etc
<geist>
MOBAs feel like a RTS with a specific scenario with a few RPG like things in it
<zid>
I can understand being so old and cranky that you're telling kids to get off your lawn because 'RPG' has shifted to mean 'uses an RPG system to do numbers' rather than 'is like D&D'
<geist>
In that you go buy upgrades, and there’s some thing you talk to, etc
<geist>
but that doesn’t make it an RPG
<zid>
I do the same with roguelike
<zid>
but we at least convinced most people to use roguelite to mean the thing they're talking about
<zid>
rather than polluting roguelike too badly
<geist>
Right, which is why I don’t particularly think mobas fit the RPG mold that well. But at least ‘arpg’ exists as a term now
<geist>
so I’m more okay with that, if arpg != rpg
<zid>
so where does diablo rate for you?
<geist>
Hmm… arpg, probably
<geist>
It fits a lot of rpg checkboxes. You have quests,you can do go things on your own terms, there’s a story that you progress through, you can go back to the ‘town’, etc
<zid>
despite essentially being baldur's gate
<geist>
Right, which I’d consider to be a prototype semi modern RPG, at least CRPG (vs a JRPG)
<zid>
I think your definition of RPG is just a touch too reductionist
<geist>
Oh prolly. I mean I don’t make the rules
<zid>
That's what RPGs are for ;)
<geist>
But i think a moba is a moba. It’s a pretty specific thing imo
<zid>
I think I'd best describe it as erm, an RPG is a game that uses the *mechanical systems* of a game that would have been an RPG in the 70s by your def
<geist>
A weird quirk, a very specific type of game that was (is?) incredibly popular a while
<geist>
Much like battle royals pvp stuff that was all the shit a few years back
<zid>
BR is a stolen term too :P
<geist>
Word.
<zid>
so anyway, LoL doesn't even get its own mechanical systems correct
<geist>
But of course it’s inevitable, some new type of game is invented, a few get really popular, and then over the next few years there are all the possible remixes
<geist>
And then the lines get blurry, repeat.
<zid>
instead of items having +3 agility or whatever, and each different hero/champ/whatever deriving different secondary stats from that (hero x gets 0.1 move speed per agilitye tc)
<zid>
they just have items that are like +20 move speed, +10 attack speed, +3 damage per crit, ..
<zid>
undermining their own system
<kazinsal>
that's because a lot of stuff scales on base stats that scale by level
<zid>
The more you have to do that, the worse you've fucked up your stat system earlier up the chain and are applying superglue and bandages when you do it
<kazinsal>
so you have procs that will do eg. a bonus 70% base AD as physical damage because a bonus 70% total AD as physical damage is almost a full extra attack
<zid>
no idea what any of that means
<kazinsal>
which on characters who do large but slow attacks becomes a Problem fast
<kazinsal>
if you don't know what it means you have no grounds to criticize the game mechanics imo
<zid>
Because I don't know the terms the wiki uses? k
<kazinsal>
that's the terms the game itself uses man
<geist>
On the RPG note i started playing Disco Elysium again, and if there’s ever a modern classic that is a prototype CRPG that’s it
<kazinsal>
literally what you get if you hover over a stat or an ability in the UI it will tell you what it is and what the scaling rates etc. are
<geist>
It’s fantastic, and even better with the remix/remaster version
<zid>
sounds like you're just salty cus I don't think they did it right
<zid>
trying to gatekeep my ability to talk about it
<kazinsal>
clearly it works fine otherwise the game wouldn't be wildly successful
<zid>
yea and avatar is the best movie ever made
<kazinsal>
taking a critical look at something requires understanding its structural components
<geist>
Someone is in an argumentative mood tonight :)
* kingoffrance
.oO( somewhere this same conversation happened, when they were discussing what constitutes a true bucket of blood, how is it to be used, etc. )
<zid>
Just responding when spoken to
<geist>
Heh
<geist>
Anyway, disco elysium. Play it. It’s amazing
<zid>
what even is it?
<geist>
I think I’m going to spend next week on it
<zid>
I tried to get back into borderlands 2 a bit, it's slower than I remembered it
<geist>
It’s so classic CRPG. Much in the vein of the also fantastic Planescape: Torment
<zid>
(another game that also has systemic issues with its rpg systems)
<geist>
But I dare say it surpasses P:T
<zid>
There was a crpg that came out a few years ago I started
<zid>
I forget the name now it had the issue where it sounded like every other game coming out at the time and I confused all the names then gave up
<geist>
There have been a few recently. An attempt to revive the genre really
<zid>
I just remember the quest text being on little scrolls of parchment and faded in, like WoW
<zid>
and I was chasing a ghost or something
<geist>
Hmm, doesn’t ring a bell. But lots of indie stuff going on right now
<zid>
was probably 2017
<zid>
or 2015
<zid>
so god knows how I'd find it
<geist>
Ah 2017, a really good vintage of games
<zid>
I just remember it being around the same time as pillars of eternity
<zid>
but probably wasn't it
<geist>
One of the better years
<geist>
Yah pillars of eternity was iirc the same guys that did P:T previously, i think
<geist>
Was kinda a new version, iirc
<zid>
I also played a more actiony one which may have been Pillars, but I could have it totally backwards
<zid>
Impossible to know
<geist>
ahh. Torment: Tides of Numenera
<zid>
I thought that was an MTG expansion
<geist>
that was the sequel i was thinking of. came out in 2017.
<geist>
i think the problem was it just wasn't that great
<geist>
didn't live up to the hype
* geist
vaporizes zid's Mitty
<zid>
good
<zid>
Now go watch the **** ***ing noises in part 2
<geist>
yah now i have to find a way to get it
<zid>
I mean, I could literally just drop the magnet link :p
<geist>
speaking of old school CRPGS, i had read somewhere that the creator of made of abyss was really influenced by an early 80s series called Wizardry
<geist>
which i do vaguely remember. they were hard as hell
<zid>
everybody's infulenced by Berserk
<zid>
wizardy is too old for anybody to remember
<geist>
wlel, yeah, but the guy explicitly said he was
<geist>
so... that's the point
<zid>
made in a abyss is basically "imagine berserk, but with really upbeat cheery children having the same happen" :p
<geist>
which berserk are you talking about?
<geist>
there are lots of games called berserk, it appears
<bslsk05>
en.wikipedia.org: Berserk (manga) - Wikipedia
<geist>
ah
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<zid>
If you're the direct influence for Cloud in FF7 and also dark souls
<zid>
you win
<klange>
After trying to pretend to be a microkernel by having my disk I/O send "requests" to a "disk server"... I've thrown out the whole lot and just slapped some dumb mutex around the read/write routines
<zid>
Imagine if geiger was japanese and made manga, basically
<klange>
it still takes about a minute to install gcc, but a lot of that is down to the ext2 driver being deranged...
<klange>
Still have wrong block numbers for my inodes, and while I know why I've run into issues with not understand the rest of my code (I wrote it a loooong time ago) trying to fix it, so I'll need to re-learn how this stuff works
<geist>
and here we are talkin about cartoons
<zid>
klange always interrupting cartoon time smh
<geist>
only dem dum kids watch them loony tunes
<klange>
(i_blocks includes the blocks used for block pointers... so in quite a few cases I'm missing the first indirect block, which is ^ those off-by-eight errors, and in large files I would be missing some additional number of blocks for the triply-indirect ones...)
<zid>
klange: love that part of coding
<zid>
"I'll just rewrite this, I'll understand it by the end, and it'll probably be better anyway" is my usual motto
<zid>
If I can write it badly once, I can write it badly twice, but with some hindsight too
<klange>
Sometimes I manage to write it something akin to "not badly" the second time.
<zid>
It just hasn't been rewritten enough, on the 4th go you'll realize how bad the 2nd was
<klange>
There's a lot of "try, and try again" in ToaruOS. The compositor, the kernel, the network stack...
<klange>
Hopefully the shell can get this treatment, based on all the stuff I learned building Kuroko...
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<geist>
I generally think that trying and trying again is a great way to really get hard earned experience
<geist>
Perhaps not the most efficient way but its good expertise
<zid>
It's just a really effective way to learn what the pinch points are
<zid>
whether your fundamental object should be a 'thing', a 'collection of thing', or 'blah', etc
<zid>
Like, going into a vfs blindly you might either pick to deal in filesystem objects, or maybe a stringmap, or some abstract thing where a bunch of code is in the fs etc, and until you've really written it it's hard to say what works the best
<zid>
or at least have an idea of what the costs of various tradeoffs end up being
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<zid>
I should figure out how to write .sys files at some point
<zid>
I don't wanna use the ddk and crap
<zid>
I think --image-base and --entry overrides and stuff should be enough and then just link to ntoskrnl?
<klange>
sitting here scratching my head for the last three hours trying to figure out why my disk stuff wasn't working in virtualbox
<zid>
did you forget to connect a drive
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<klange>
staring at the stats logs, the status bits, etc., and everything is saying it's reading just fine, but I'm getting nothing
<klange>
turns out I had a tiny little... critical bug where I was allocating 0 bytes for something and ending up with [sort of] a null pointer that I was handing to the disk controller
<klange>
qemu was fine with this I guess? but virtualbox was just like nah
<j`ey>
heh, I just had a very simlar bug with virtio.. allocating a buffer of 0 bytes, and the allocation failed but I didnt notice
<j`ey>
and nothing was being read
<klange>
anyway... can boot to a real disk in VirtualBox now, though I need a boot CD at the moment - need to adapt my loader... not so much to support disks, but to support ext2.
<klange>
also I haven't tested any of this behind the partition mapper, I've just got a raw ext2 slapped right at sector 0
<j`ey>
and I also forgot to include the linux kernel CONFIG_DMA_RESTRICED_POOL option so it crashed after I fixed that bug anyway
<zid>
I really need to work on my shit a bit soon
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<zid>
I wanna add some networking syscalls so that userspace can implement something interactive / useful
<klange>
I have... a bit under a month and a half to check off as many boxes as I can before The Deadline arrives.
* j`ey
is doing Work not Hobby D:
<zid>
Za Deddorainu!
<klange>
締切
<zid>
締め切り
<klange>
Would be nice if I could have an installer so you can throw an empty disk at VirtualBox, as its wizard allows, boot the live CD, format the disk as ext2 after clicking several buttons to confirm you're not trying to do this on a real disk or something...
<zid>
online installers are too modern
* kingoffrance
head explodes wondering what definition of online zid means
<kingoffrance>
online got modernized too
<kingoffrance>
well, there's your bucket of blood :)
<sham1>
[14:44] klange: turns out I had a tiny little... critical bug where I was allocating 0 bytes for something and ending up with [sort of] a null pointer that I was handing to the disk controller
<sham1>
And this is why you test on multiple different systems and VMs
<sham1>
See, had you only tested on Qemu, you wouldn't have discovered that bug. I think we can all learn something from this
<zid>
Nah that's why you bug() if malloc fails :P
<zid>
or if malloc is given a 0, etc
<sham1>
Emit an ud2 if malloc is give 0
<sham1>
After all, it's undefined behaviour
<zid>
ud2 doesn't do much in kernel space
<zid>
throw.. yourself.. an irq.. that you knew you were going to send..
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<zid>
might turn into a triplefault too
<sham1>
Well kernel panic
<zid>
ye, bug()
<zid>
BUG_ON() in linux I think
<sham1>
Of course one could also just do the sensible thing and just return NULL
<zid>
I tbh don't recommend it
<zid>
have a malloc that can maybe, but I wouldn't do it on the default one
<zid>
almost all of the time if you can't grab the resources you need for kernel structures, your kernel's in too fucked a state to continue
<zid>
and adding all the NULL checks everywhere is both error prone and inflates code size
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<sham1>
Hm
<sham1>
Mayhals
<sham1>
Mayhaps
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<zid>
klange: how do you tell apart computer and bypass capacitor in japanese
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<zid>
also, I need to figure out how to develop a windows driver without horribly crashing my desktop every 20 seconds
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<zid>
speaking of toggling random i/o ports, what do we think happens if I try to toggle A20 on a running 64bit windows machine? :P
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<lukflug>
Good afternoon!
<lukflug>
Recently there OSDev.org was down for a while. After the downtime, I tried to log in, but it seems like my account doesn't exist anymore. The account was around 2 months old. I never posted in the Forums and only made two wiki contributions, so I doubt that I have been banned. I've contacted support@osdev.org 10 days ago, but haven't gotten a
<lukflug>
response since. Should I wait more, or what are the recourses I could take?
<lukflug>
Thanks a lot!
<zid>
I wonder if it died and rolled back
<zid>
but, it's just 'some dude' who runs the forum
<zid>
you'll need to ask him
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<geist>
fwiw i think my account is gone too, but may have been before the recent shutdown
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<klange>
chase deleted all accounts without posts a few weeks ago to purge the massive number of banned spambots
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<klange>
zid: パソコン / パスコン? Well, they're different words for one, how do we tell the difference between lift and left in English? If the pronunciation isn't enough (they have different pitch accents, too), context clues... and I'm not even sure パスコン is a particularly common term, but I don't work with electronics very often, and never in Japanese anyway.
<heat>
geist: lots of fuchsia this year at llvm!
<heat>
surprising!
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<geist>
oh yay
<geist>
i only knew about petrs talk
<geist>
i should go watch it. is it avail online?
<geist>
klange: hmm, but i've edited stuff on the wiki. did he ban because of lack of forum posts?
<heat>
geist, petr didn't gave his yet, there was some guy (forgot the name) talking about relative vtables
<geist>
oh yeah, that's neat. we're using that already
<klange>
He didn't ban anyone.
<geist>
er yeah delete. sorry
<heat>
you get horrible x86 code though, which is a shame
<klange>
Wiki edits were not considered, which, yeah, oops on chase's part
<geist>
yah though branch predictor probably will end up doing basically the same thing
<klange>
Just re-register a new account with the same name, go post somewhere so I can approve you and you have _a_ post, and things should be fine.