klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<geist> ah still down? seems to happen from time to time
<geist> reminds me, is it possible to take a snapshot of it when it's alive, with the idea that maybe it doesn't come back one of these times?
<vdamewood> wget -r? :P
<zid> archive.org may have it?
<geist> well, i mean some sort of download the contents. some wikis have that support, from what i remember
<geist> sure, could slurp the contents, but i'm thinking of something more fundamental
<vdamewood> You mean something more like ssh dbadmin@osdev.org pgsql dump osdevsite > osdev.sql
<vdamewood> ?
<geist> perhaps
<geist> was thinkingo f how at least at some point you could get a tarball of the contents of wikipedia
<geist> it was a feature of the wiki
<gog> send me $200 i'll get the site working again
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<zid> $199 and I'll do a full replacement site hosted off a $2 vps
<vdamewood> gog: Will 26,000 króna work?
<gog> yes
* vdamewood has precicely 0 króna.
<gog> :<
<gog> bitkróna
<bslsk05> ​hold.abuser.eu <no title>
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* vdamewood gives gog a fishy
* gog chomps fishy
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<zid> okay version 2 is up
<vdamewood> Oh, did someone snipe the domain after expiry?
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<zid> If anybody wants to contribute to v3 I accept patches
<gog> lmao
<vdamewood> Dammit real life getting in the way of my IRCing.
<gog> booo
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<brynet> o/ #osdev
<geist> lo
<gog> hæ
<geist> wiki seems back up but i can't log in
<geist> says my account is not valid :)
<gog> your account isn't valid but you are <3
<geist> awww
* geist feels the luv
<geist> also digging around there is a osdev wiki dump file: http://files.osdev.org/osdev_wiki.zip
<geist> unclear if it's updated frequently but it's linked off the About page of the wiki
<geist> judging from the time stamps of the files inside it....it's not up to date
<geist> everything seems to be dated 2018-01-21
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<Maka_Albarn> I just thought about this, but can you edit inactive descriptors in the GDT/LDT? that is, descriptors that are not pointed to by the segment selectors?
<Maka_Albarn> or do you need to flush the gdt each time to make a change?
<zid> depends if it's cached or not and I'm not sure you can tell
<Maka_Albarn> zid: soooo.... flush anyway to be sure?
<Maka_Albarn> hmm. gotta go. see ya
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<eryjus> geist: do you know if chase hosts osdev dot org on his own equipment or in a data center?
<junon> eryjus: it's a linode instance IIRC.
<junon> It's dog slow. Is it getting DOSed?
<junon> Was down a few days ago entirely too :/
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<eryjus> junon: thx
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<kazinsal> it is kind of bizarre that we don't really have any way to get a hold of the guy who has the keys to the site, but then again, for the longest time we were at most unofficially tangentially related to the site
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<junon> yeah.
<junon> I wonder how much it costs. I'd be willing to contribute.
<kazinsal> my suspicion is it's not really a cost problem, but more likely something on the linode box ate 100% of the CPU and is choking out nginx or whatever
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<Ameisen> Did any company (I don't think that Motorola did) ever make a 64-bit variant of the 68k?
<zid> I'm not sure there are many 64bit cpus in general
<Ameisen> apparnetly Apollo was supposedly making a 64-bit version, the AC-68080?
<Ameisen> that or they _did_?
<wleslie> if you were going to, why not start from the m88k?
<Ameisen> I mean
<Ameisen> they're pretty different ISAs
<wleslie> sure, I guess it depends on why you're doing that
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<klange> sortie, graphitemaster, zid: `ld -r -o thing.o --format=binary thing.bin`
<klange> results in an object with symbols _binary_thing_bin_start, _binary_thing_bin_end, _binary_thing_bin_size
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<clever> ive tried using that, but when using relative paths, the entire path winds up in the symbol name
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<clever> and it gets ugly rather fast
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<clever> but .incbin is far simpler to use, and you can even generate private symbols and pre-fill a table for C usage: https://github.com/librerpi/lk-overlay/blob/master/platform/bcm28xx/arm/payload.S
<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk-overlay/payload.S at master · librerpi/lk-overlay · GitHub
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<clever> this will embed 2 binaries, but the symbols arent global, it then generates a fixed-size struct array, containing each start+size
<bslsk05> ​github.com: lk-overlay/arm.c at master · librerpi/lk-overlay · GitHub
<klange> I'm not really sure that's easier to use? You have to write an assembly shell, vs. this single command.
<clever> when you do ../../foo/binary.bin, you wind up with a _binary_foo_binary_bin_start symbol
<clever> and if your path was dynamically generated at build time, your symbol is now dynamic
<clever> so you need to replace every special character with an _ to create a matching symbol
<Mutabah> A workaround is to copy (or symlink) to a known location
<clever> yeah, a symlink could solve that
<klange> You can also eliminate the path prefix by shoving it in -L
<clever> ahhh, `-L custom_symbol`, that solves pretty much everything
<klange> More like `-L my/stupid/dynamically/generated/path`
<klange> This is ld, after all - it's just interpreting your binary payload as a library to link with the "binary" bfd format handler, so it'll happily search for it in the `-L` path.
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<clever> the man page says -L is `[-L symbolname|--localize-symbol=symbolname]`
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<klange> Uh, what? -L is searchdir
<extern> why this Makefile generates all.o first... foo.o is the first target
<bslsk05> ​paste.ofcode.org: Paste ofCode
<klange> There is no other -L in my local ld manpage...
<clever> not according to the man page in objcopy, https://linux.die.net/man/1/objcopy
<bslsk05> ​linux.die.net: objcopy(1): copy/translate object files - Linux man page
<klange> objcopy was not mentioned
<clever> ahh, i misread your original msg
<clever> ive seen nearly identical advice before, but with objcopy, to create a .o
<klange> objcopy _can_ change symbol names, so that's a viable next step - it can probably also take the 'binary' bfd input.
<clever> but your using ld -r, to create a .o
<klange> extern: Make doesn't care about the order of inputs.
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<extern> klange: so what am i missing
<klange> Nothing in your Makefile imbues an ordering upon the creation of the three .o targets.
<extern> why the first statement that this Makefile is running is echo "int main() { return 0; }" > all.c
<klange> Why shouldn't it be?
<klange> Make only cares about dependency graphs.
<extern> foo.o is the first prerequisite that Makefile is checking which is not yet created
<klange> Why do you think it's first?
<klange> Because you wrote it first?
<klange> That doesn't matter.
<extern> yes..
<klange> Make doesn't care.
<extern> ok so why does it decided that all.o is created first
<klange> You have three leaf nodes in your dependency graph - the three C files - and Make will perform the rules to make those files in an indeterminate order.
<extern> it is determined order if on every run and on every permutation of 'objects' all.o is always created first
<extern> so there must be something to that
<klange> Indeterminate does not mean inconsistent.
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<geist> also if you run make with any sort of -j option, it'll just do them in whatever order
<geist> but i guess they left
<klange> Must have been something I said.
<geist> well, you were being a bit harsh, but yeah
<geist> my take on precisely why it was doing all.o first is it built a graph and then either solved it from the bottom up, deepest nodes first
<geist> or it literally ran it backwards, like last thing added
<geist> though as yuo were pointing out it doesn't care
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<geist> i have always meant to look into precisely how gnu make tracks things internally. is it a big tree? if so how does it choose to solve it?
<machinecode> Hi, are chrome apps really dead and do I make a Node or other server/game? I think I should use web tech. Asking here, because everywhere else is desolate.
<sortie> Unfortunately operating systems development is also dead
<klange> We're all dead, on the inside at least.
<geist> also we get to relive this hour in a few minutes
<klange> My magic eightball says you should invest in JPEGs.
<Affliction> brb, writing an OS with Electron
<sortie> It's all empty developers going through the motions of a Unix system with no light inside
<geist> all hail unix
<geist> at least until multics becomes retro enough
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<machinecode> Gentlemen, install Debian 11 and then p0wn it. Trust me, I'm an android.
<machinecode> Also, vector interrupt table is a function struct between the kernel and bios.
<Affliction> Now my brain is working through the incredible amount of infrastructure required so the bootloader can start the kernel with an <iframe src="kernel.html" />
<sortie> Sir, this is a Wendy's
<machinecode> Not so fast. Node runs as a kernel.
<machinecode> real talk
<Mutabah> Overloaded terms
<machinecode> invisible bytecode
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<Arsen> want a chuckle guys
<bslsk05> ​ebpf.io: eBPF - Introduction, Tutorials & Community Resources
<Arsen> >eBPF is a revolutionary technology with origins in the Linux kernel that can run sandboxed programs in an operating system kernel. It is used to safely and efficiently extend the capabilities of the kernel without requiring to change kernel source code or load kernel modules.
<Affliction> yeah, it really has caught on, hasn't it
<Arsen> a revolutionary technology! because linux is the first to invent bytecode!
<Arsen> Affliction: nah not even ebpf, I'm just laughing at the website
<Affliction> heh
<Affliction> That said, there are some fancy things that would be more difficult without it
<Affliction> I understand there are network cards that can run eBPF bytecode, for instance
<Arsen> I can understand why ebpf is handy, we even have something similar (https://github.com/managarm/managarm/blob/8250ae9110703e5db796011078d8d856b8119f3c/kernel/thor/generic/thor-internal/kernlet.hpp), and I'll be using it in the near future for some syscall filtering, but that website just hilariously overstates how innovative it is
<bslsk05> ​github.com: managarm/kernlet.hpp at 8250ae9110703e5db796011078d8d856b8119f3c · managarm/managarm · GitHub
<kingoffrance> yeah...bpf did not originate there
<Arsen> indeed
<kingoffrance> ebpf maybe, but "there is nothing new under the sun" "only old things we dont know yet" -- ambrose bierce :)
<j`ey> it's just marketing material :P
<Arsen> ebpf did yeah, but it's "just" bpf with a negative jump
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<sikkiladho> is it possible in raspberry pi 4 to load two binaries and transition from one binary(at el2) to another binary(at1)?
<j`ey> i think the firmware loads a kernel and an 'armstub' (as they call it)
<j`ey> so you could do that
<sikkiladho> in the armstub, I have loaded Trusted-firmware-A. Can there be a way to load the standard kernel using initramfs configuration. https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/config_txt.html#initramfs
<bslsk05> ​www.raspberrypi.com: Raspberry Pi Documentation - The config.txt file
<j`ey> well that seems to load to a specified address, so tf-a could know about that address I guess
<sikkiladho> let me explain: I have a simple hypervisor binary, which prints hello world to UART and should transition to standard kernel.
<sikkiladho> I load hypervisor with config, kernel=el1-hypervisor.img and it succesfully prints hello world.
<sikkiladho> this is flow. tf-a at el0 -> hypervisor at el1 -> standard kernel at el2
<j`ey> uh
<sikkiladho> I have a problem transition from hypervisor to standarad kernel.
<j`ey> el0 is the least priveleged
<j`ey> it's tf-a EL3 -> hyp EL2 -> kernel EL1
<sikkiladho> ooopsss
<sikkiladho> yess
<sikkiladho> you are right
<j`ey> the hypervisor needs to load the kernel off the disk
<sikkiladho> but if I load the kernel device tree kernel8.img using initramfs at some specified address
<sikkiladho> and in the hypervisor, I would eret to that address in el1 level, it should work.
<j`ey> yes that might work
<sikkiladho> I have tried it. But somehow transition from hypervisor to kernel doesn't happen. It is stuck after printing Hello World to UART.
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Cannot transition from hypervisor el2_kernel.img to standard kernel · Issue #1 · SikkiLadho/Leo · GitHub
<j`ey> you should print the contents of the address the kernel is loaded at
<j`ey> you can try see if it loaded properly
<j`ey> sikkiladho: you arent setting the device tree anywhere
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Leo/raspberrypi_config.txt at 2e3b8e9e5339f3f544b4bd6d00c5ce4883ddf63c · SikkiLadho/Leo · GitHub
<j`ey> I mean before booting
<j`ey> before booting linux
<j`ey> when linux boots it needs the device tree of the rpi
<sikkiladho> so I am loading the device tree at some address using initramfs. el1-kernel.img is the device tree for linux.
<j`ey> that's a kernel, not a device tree?
<j`ey> or it has the device tree inside of it?
<sikkiladho> that's the kernel, usually kernel8.img. .dts is the device tree. It seems I am just loading the kernel at some address but I'm not loading the device tree? I'm really a beginner and trying to learn while building the project so bear me please.
<sikkiladho> * .dtb
<j`ey> yes, that's what im saying, you need a device tree too
<j`ey> you could load one like you did with initramfs
<sikkiladho> How can I set the device tree? We can also build a kernel with appended device tree.
<sikkiladho> So, I would first load device tree. and then following it, the kernel image?
<j`ey> yep
<j`ey> you can get a device tree from the linux kernel, or from the rpi firmware repo
<sikkiladho> Let me try it right now.
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<sikkiladho> j`ey: won't it be easier to merge the device tree with the kernel image so that device tree comes first. and load it as a signle image?
<j`ey> you could do that, make sure you pad the end of the DT
<j`ey> so the kernel is aligned properly
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<sikkiladho> j`ey then we will have to build kernel using CONFIG_ARM_APPENDED_DTB=y https://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/ARM_APPENDED_DTB.html
<bslsk05> ​cateee.net: Linux Kernel Driver DataBase: CONFIG_ARM_APPENDED_DTB: Use appended device tree blob to zImage (EXPERIMENTAL)
<sikkiladho> would it be necessary
<j`ey> thats a 32-bit option
<j`ey> you have a 64-bit kernel
<j`ey> (so you cant use it)
<sikkiladho> Thank you.
<sikkiladho> about alignment, kernel is 8-byte aligned. I have to add the padding in a way, that [size of dtb + padding] is divisible by 8. right?
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<j`ey> no, the kernel address should be 2MB aligned
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<j`ey> SikkiLadho: you can look at Documentation/arm64/booting.rst in the linux repo
<sikkiladho> Thank you. I am looking into it.
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<ad__> hi, brief question you may know: calling an assembly func as "void func() " that is func: bx lr
<ad__> (arm of course) but systyem does not return, why ?
<GeDaMo> You're calling an assembly language function from C?
<GeDaMo> Doesn't bx switch between ARM and Thumb mode?
<j`ey> GeDaMo: if the lsb of the function addr is set
<ad__> GeDaMo, yes, calling from C.
<zid> also you mean void func(void);
<zid> () means unspecified number of arguments, (void) means no arguments
<ad__> yes ai am testing just a void func(void);
<zid> what does your debugger say happens?
<ad__> actually cannot use it, running on embedded board
<j`ey> ad__: does the asm save lr?
<ad__> j`ey, mm i am calling the function from C, supposing yes
<GeDaMo> What should happen in the C program after func returns?
<j`ey> ad__: is this your code?
<ad__> i call a printf
<heat> printfs are more complex and it's possible you're corrupting the stack
<GeDaMo> Can you show your whole program?
<zid> ideally you'd have 'turn off LED with mmio' f(); 'turn on LED with mmio' :P
<GeDaMo> Does printf work before calling func?
<ad__> mm the whole program is u-boot i am modifying, so not small. Btw, what i do is:
<ad__> yes printf works before
<ad__> so i di:
<ad__> from c : extern void _func(void); printf("before call\n"); func(); printf("acter call\n");
<ad__> in assembly i just do
<ad__> .pushsection ._special.text, "ax"
<ad__> .globl _func
<ad__> bxlr
<ad__> .popsection
<ad__> _func:
<zid> blexr.
<heat> please use gists/pastebins
<zid> My favourite instruction
<j`ey> ad__: comment out the func call, do you see the 'after' message?
<ad__> yes
<j`ey> objdump uboot, is it getting the right address for func?
<zid> and what does the callsite look look
<zid> look like*
<ad__> ok i can objdump and see what it would do
<zid> *proceeds to paste the entire disassembly of uboot to irc*
<heat> pasting code to irc is based
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<Ameisen> wleslie: since everyone likes the 68k
<Ameisen> so making a 64-bit 68k workstation would be fun
<Ameisen> as said, there does appear to be _one_ kind of 64-bit 68k (the 68080), but it's only really distributed in a form meant for Amigas
<Ameisen> and I'm not sure what Amigas are doing with a 64-bit chip
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<Maka_Albarn> IT'S BACK!!!
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<wleslie> cool I guess. I did look recently at m68k prices online as I'd love to upgrade my LC to have an MMU; they are still several hundred dollars new, unfortunately
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<wleslie> my intuition (which may not be very good) is that people like the m68k because it was reasonably popular and there's plenty of software for it, but the ISA itself is mostly nothing special and has a lot of inconveniences
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<geist> oh i dunno, i kinda enjoy working with 68k
<zid> yea I thought the consensus is that 68k is nice
<geist> at least if you're into older stuff it's one of the nicer older things to work with
<zid> pretty clean and orthogonal and 'modern' ish
<geist> yah
<geist> and kinda 386 level complexity in terms of mmu/etc (though cleaner designed) so it's a bit of a 'powerful retro' feel to play with
<bslsk05> ​twitter: <olofj> Modern OS on legacy hardware requires patience. https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1454536892515438593/pu/vid/720x1280/M_Fcwuc97liuvQ-f.mp4?tag=12
<geist> yah i got a fairly modernish copy of netbsd on this microvax here and it's definitely an exercise in patience
<geist> wleslie: re 68k do you mean on some sort of card? I managed to buy a few 68030s off ebay fairly recently (3 or 4 months ago) and they ended up about $20 a piece
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<Ameisen> IIRC, you cannot use 68060s with macs because of missing instructions?
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<geist> that'd be my guess yeah
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