ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
<midfavila> my workstation is running like
<Gremlin8483> should be a breeze for you
<midfavila> 0.1.0
<midfavila> and this is 0.4.0
<midfavila> and i mean, yeah
<Gremlin8483> i had no idea kiss is even updated
<midfavila> i maintain my own upstream
<midfavila> i don't track KISS Community or Repo
<midfavila> that reminds me i should upload my new repo
<Gremlin8483> how do you upgrade the rootfs tarball, just one package at a time?
<Gremlin8483> like ie if wanted a new musl
<midfavila> i develop using a rolling model, then "release" a stable tarball after i've conducted sufficient testing
<midfavila> i almost never update core/ on a running system
<Gremlin8483> so you simply kiss b musl and then copy the output into the tarball
<Gremlin8483> doig some testing with it
<Gremlin8483> right
<midfavila> that's the gist of it
<Gremlin8483> damn easy
<midfavila> i'm going to be looking at gentoo's hardened profile to see if i can steal any ideas from it tonight
<Gremlin8483> right now im setting up my own repos, as well as an interface to cache builds and versioning and handle forks
<midfavila> maybe see if there's any interesting musl news on openwall
<Gremlin8483> i had exactly the same idea for gentoo hardened
<Gremlin8483> hehe
<midfavila> dude just use kiss for all of that
<midfavila> kiss already caches binaries and handles forking
<Gremlin8483> i know the alternative system
<midfavila> you can use ccache for caching of objects too
<midfavila> no, it's not alternatives
<midfavila> kiss backs up packages under kiss/bin/
<midfavila> or binaries or w/e
<midfavila> yeah kiss/bin
<midfavila> jesus christ i might have to pop out for a sec, the IRC client i'm using refuses to acknowledge my bitmap font preferences
<midfavila> keeps defaulting to 8x8 fixed
<Gremlin8483> sure
<midfavila> on a fugging 3mp display 2-3ft away from me
<midfavila> p a i n
<Gremlin8483> lol
<midfavila> really need to do shit with xirc
<Gremlin8483> i use irssi, simple interface
<midfavila> having a UI mockup is great but i still haven't done anything with it because i need to learn async networking
<midfavila> simple interfaces are great but simple stack is better
<Gremlin8483> agreed
<Gremlin8483> only using it cuz i didnt find anything better
<midfavila> give me a second
<midfavila> ncurses irc with tls and infinite scrollback in ~1k lines of C
<Gremlin8483> dang
<Gremlin8483> ill take a look thx
<Gremlin8483> the other thing i use this irc for is actually not chatting
<Gremlin8483> its supposedly just suppoed to do logging on informative irc channels
<Gremlin8483> it runs on an openbsd laptop 24-7
<Gremlin8483> i got lazy and use it to chat
<Gremlin8483> so if i have any questions about stuff i can just grep my irc logs
<midfavila> you can just use whitequark's
<midfavila> i think
<midfavila> over http/s obvs
<Gremlin8483> didnt hear that, im pretty new to irc
<midfavila> there
<midfavila> "new" repo
<midfavila> and that's fair
<Gremlin8483> checking it out
<midfavila> it's nothing special
<midfavila> significantly less capable than the average KISS setup, but it's good enough to satisfy my autism for now
<Gremlin8483> its so well organized dude
<midfavila> yes, that was part of what bothered me about KISS community and previous versions of my repo
<midfavila> i spent a good three or four days pruning and reorganizing everything
<Gremlin8483> what if you wanted to maintain multiple package versions or source versions of the same package? how would you allow them to coexist?
<Gremlin8483> or architectures
<midfavila> fork, rename, build, install under a different prefix
<Gremlin8483> agreed
<midfavila> ./configure --prefix=/usr/bin/$PACKAGE_NAME-whatever/
<midfavila> or equivalent
<midfavila> i still have more work to do
<midfavila> CDE doesn't build properly
<midfavila> keeps running into super funky link errors
<midfavila> at least using core/
<Gremlin8483> must be frustrating
<Gremlin8483> you worked on it for a couple of days now i recall
<midfavila> also not as compliant with the LSB/POSIX/SUS as i'd like
<midfavila> and yes, it's somewhat annoying
<midfavila> CDE is the endgame, short-term
<midfavila> long term, i have my own ideas regarding UX that i'm going to implement
<Gremlin8483> i usually use i3 myself
<midfavila> eventually i'll expand on those ideas and A/OS will be an actual operating system
<midfavila> i3...
<Gremlin8483> havent set it up yet tho
<midfavila> i don't like tilers
<Gremlin8483> its good for multi monitor
<midfavila> i think that most of them are faux-minimalist
<Gremlin8483> you can move tile groups across monitors
<midfavila> and their functionality really ought to be implemented by a higher-level program
<Gremlin8483> i usu triple montior
<midfavila> as do i
<Gremlin8483> cool
<Gremlin8483> for me its the ability to move entire groups independently around
<midfavila> this is what i spend most of my time staring at
<Gremlin8483> looks similar to mine except i tile
<Gremlin8483> its more just a personal pref
<Gremlin8483> i dont use mouse a lot so tiling helps
<midfavila> honestly neither do i
<midfavila> i kind of just let windows sit where they show up
<Gremlin8483> btw i learned rust a few months these last 2 years
<midfavila> okay
<midfavila> that's cool ig
<Gremlin8483> do you do a lot of it?
<midfavila> rust?
<Gremlin8483> yea
<midfavila> i do not, will not, and have never considered learning, using, or even so much as installing rust of my own volition
<Gremlin8483> its a nice language, a nice tool
<Gremlin8483> but every tool has specific use cases
<midfavila> rust has sociopolitical issues
<midfavila> and they also *still don't have a fucking spec*
<Gremlin8483> agreed on that
<midfavila> until they have a formal language spec i refuse to acknowledge or take seriously anything that uses rust
<Gremlin8483> my mindset is every language has some use and i think i would use it in some niche scenarios
<Gremlin8483> but i definitely was more hyped at the very beginning than now
<midfavila> my mindset is that the niche that rust fits into is a symptom of bad design
<Gremlin8483> interesting view
<Gremlin8483> im pretty new with programming so i have no strong opinion
<Gremlin8483> right now im using mostly c
<midfavila> >your memory management bullshit is so overcomplicated that you need an entire system to manage it but you're too good to use a garbage collector so you create an entire ecosystem to compete with established systems
<midfavila> i'm also new to programming to be very clear
<Gremlin8483> its really bad with algorithms too
<Gremlin8483> the code is unreadable and unwritable almost
<midfavila> but i've approached it thus far from a very philosophical position, and less of a practical one
<midfavila> for better or worse
<midfavila> so i have some *very*, *very*, *very* strong *stylistic* opinions, if not purely technical ones
<Gremlin8483> ive definitely changed my view once i switched to c
<midfavila> to be clear, i don't *like* C
<Gremlin8483> when i was learning rust, i hated c even though i didnt like c
<Gremlin8483> learn c
<Gremlin8483> maybe im still just a language hopper haha
<midfavila> i only really know ANSI C and R4RS Scheme
<Gremlin8483> having hopped most of the langs, i do think they are all flawed, my logic was, if they are all flawed, might as well go for the one that forms the basis of most oses
<midfavila> not a terrible reason to pick a first language
<Gremlin8483> world cant work without c
<Gremlin8483> good ro bad
<midfavila> my first-first was Scheme
<Gremlin8483> guile?
<midfavila> MIT
<midfavila> i don't like guile
<Gremlin8483> why did you pick taht one to start, just curious
<midfavila> its setup is a pain in the ass
<midfavila> oh, that's easy
<midfavila> SICP
<Gremlin8483> i picked python to start cuz it was the most popular
<Gremlin8483> then go, then rust
<midfavila> also scheme is insanely easy to learn and use
<midfavila> and you can do some really wonky stuff that other languages struggle to express
<midfavila> scheme also embodies what i consider aesthetic perfection
<Gremlin8483> ok, makes sense
<Gremlin8483> for me i just picked the easiest one haha
<midfavila> the language standard embodies "just enough" to a T
<midfavila> well, you also need to keep in mind the meta of the language
<midfavila> C is a *very* easy language to learn
<midfavila> but there's so much mental state you need to keep track of that using it very quickly explodes in complexity
<Gremlin8483> absolutely agreed
<midfavila> same with most predominantly imperative languages
<midfavila> but scheme, unlike C and most languages today, is primarily functional by default
<midfavila> so it encourages a very different viewpoint that's more concerned about composition than state manipulation
<midfavila> i guess
<Gremlin8483> so you think functional programs may be able to express complex programs easier?
<Gremlin8483> i nver used a function one, but i know about ML and haskell and the likes
<midfavila> the answer to that is It Depends
<midfavila> some things are amenable to functional programming, mostly... well, mathematical functions and such, in my limited experience
<Gremlin8483> sure, i heard that as well
<midfavila> i could keep track of piles of different vvariables and fifty different support functions that pollute the global namespace or i could just write a single function that composes the right function as necessary using lambdas
<Gremlin8483> true, mutability is a huge deal in functional
<midfavila> but if you're doing something that has intrinsic side effects, then obviously FP isn't any good
<midfavila> i dunno. i'm not really qualified to talk about these things in particular
<Gremlin8483> as always it all depends on the programmer and project
<Gremlin8483> well you def did your homework
<Gremlin8483> i read a lot as well, us being newer programmers, we have to read more
<Gremlin8483> and much of what you say makes sense
<midfavila> i've done very little reading, honestly
<midfavila> it's a major flaw that seriously hampers my worldview and ability to accomplish things
<midfavila> my mathematics ability is far too poor for me to seriously begin studying computer science
<midfavila> like i said, my technical knowledge is very barebones
<Gremlin8483> id say compsci and programming are very different fields anyway
<midfavila> most of my "knowledge" has been attained through study of philosophical texts
<midfavila> and yes, that's true
<midfavila> it's like comparing physics to engineering
<Gremlin8483> for me both are important, but programming slightly more so
<midfavila> but coding is again its own thing
<Gremlin8483> i do try to read some comp sci but only to understand basics
<Gremlin8483> once they start theorizing too much im out
<midfavila> you're missing out
<Gremlin8483> theres only 24 hours in a day..
<midfavila> an hour a day adds up fast ;p
<Gremlin8483> definitely
<midfavila> i ought to spend mine more productively though
<Gremlin8483> i mean we can only do the best we can
<Gremlin8483> no use in forcing it
<midfavila> i need to work on learning C99, POSIX, more recent revisions of Scheme, Pascal, Modula-2, Oberon, FORTH, Smalltalk, Haskell......
<midfavila> maybe
<Gremlin8483> thats quite a list!
<Gremlin8483> posix is the best imo
<Gremlin8483> in this crazy world of complexity
<Gremlin8483> posix makes things manageable for me
<midfavila> i don't know enough to comment on that, but i will say that if you compare POSIX system calls to Unix system calls, POSIX is like an order of magnitude more numerous in that regard
<midfavila> of course, POSIX does much more, but there's so much junk that needs sifting through compared to Unix system calls
<Gremlin8483> i work mostly in shell scripts so i dont deal with that
<Gremlin8483> but that is concerning
<midfavila> i don't know enough about coding to comment on the quality of POSIX in a vacuum or relative to other specs, though
<Gremlin8483> some ppl do not like posix at all
<Gremlin8483> for a good reason probably
<midfavila> posix shell is a gateway drug to C
<midfavila> #kisslinux is testament to that
<Gremlin8483> true, that happened exactly to me
<Gremlin8483> thats why im here
<midfavila> "geez if only i had a routine that could do this, but implementing it in POSIX shell is hard/impossible... fuck, time to break out C I guess"
<midfavila> ^unix in a nutshell
<Gremlin8483> better than python, java, javascript, rust, go for those kind of things
<Gremlin8483> posix and c just work without setting anything up
<Gremlin8483> cant beat that
<Gremlin8483> no vms, no extra bloat beyond what comes with linux
<midfavila> keep in mind that C only "just werks" because unix is a C system
<Gremlin8483> i run 7 machines so that kind of compatibility is important
<Gremlin8483> sure that is what im betting on
<midfavila> if you use an OS that isn't written in C, you'll find it becomes much less efficient
<Gremlin8483> you have to anchor some assumption at some point
<Gremlin8483> agreed
<midfavila> or, rather, that doesn't have native support for the C runtime
<Gremlin8483> i think most embedded and archs have c compilers by now
<Gremlin8483> not too worried about that
<Gremlin8483> the biggest problem as you said is writing good c code
<midfavila> i don't care much about embedded
<midfavila> i'm interested more in OS R&D
<midfavila> and in sustainable computing
<Gremlin8483> same here, i keep wondering about the next gen os
<midfavila> forth and scheme are imo better suited to that task
<midfavila> "next gen" for me will be last-last-last-last-last gen
<Gremlin8483> what are your thoughts? linux for the next 100 years, microkernels?, file based oses?
<Gremlin8483> i wanted to try sel4 kernel but it wasnt accessible for me at the time
<midfavila> jesus christ kill me now, based and underutilized, and my main area of interest, respectively
<Gremlin8483> microkernels?
<midfavila> filesystem-based OSes/interfaces
<midfavila> ala suckless ii
<Gremlin8483> well i've been asking around a lot on this?and nobody seems to have an answer or even an opinion people are just afraid to make predictions
<Gremlin8483> what does the os of the future look like practically?
<midfavila> no clue
<midfavila> i won't presume to be knowledgeable enough to guess at the future
<Gremlin8483> i mean we learned a ton over the last 50 years
<Gremlin8483> surely we know what we want and dont want
<midfavila> >we know what we want and what we don't want
<midfavila> >using rust
<Gremlin8483> i guess we just drift around and take it day by day
<midfavila> rest my case
<midfavila> and yes that's basically it
<Gremlin8483> it sucks
<Gremlin8483> no real plan
<midfavila> practical solutions only occur as an answer to practical problems faced by industry
<Gremlin8483> no real goal
<midfavila> that's why the "coolest" OS-type stuff going on right now is like
<midfavila> docker
<Gremlin8483> jsut hack the kernel and make it werk
<Gremlin8483> staple on stuff
<midfavila> that's how you get bsd
<Gremlin8483> i think what kiss linux has showed us people don't care about what goes on beneath the presentation layer they wont reward someone whosomeone who does good engineering if it's not immediately tangible
<Gremlin8483> even if you make an amazing os, windows and osx will still have 99% of market share
<Gremlin8483> hope im proven wrong, tho
<midfavila> unrelated but
<midfavila> this is really cool and i've wanted one since it was announced
<midfavila> just stay out of the comments around anything MNT
<midfavila> filled with weenies who can't into the idea of TCO
<Gremlin8483> it does look really cool reminds me of the old school netbooks which i liked
<Gremlin8483> but its also modular hardware?
<Gremlin8483> very nice
<midfavila> modular and libre
<midfavila> all schematics are available for free, as is the BoM
<Gremlin8483> dang take my money
<midfavila> therein lies the problem
<midfavila> it's 1k USD
<midfavila> and for many people that's too high a cost period
<Gremlin8483> wish bigger screen but i guess i could just change the console font size
<Gremlin8483> holy moly
<midfavila> but for most it seems that the problem is less the price tag and more the price tag with the specs of the device
<midfavila> which completely misses the point of the device
<Gremlin8483> to me that price is a bit of a red flag usually it's a sign of money grab; ppl who promote libre shouldnt charge such ridiculous prices
<midfavila> that being you can just pay a few hundred down the line and get a new SoM
<Gremlin8483> maybe im wrong but thats not a good sign
<midfavila> you clearly don't know how expensive hardware R&D is then
<Gremlin8483> fair enough
<midfavila> MNT has a history of creating, selling and supporting libre hardware that's designed almost entirely in-house
<Gremlin8483> they hav to make back their expenses
<midfavila> precisely
<Gremlin8483> but can they show us the account sheets
<midfavila> you can literally just go ask their CEO and see
<Gremlin8483> if they did i would be happy to cover that cost
<Gremlin8483> maybe i will
<midfavila> i don't know if they *will*, but you can definitely ask
<Gremlin8483> good idea
<midfavila> lukas is super open to sharing info about MNT and how things are being done
<Gremlin8483> libre companies shoul dhave a transparent financial structure
<midfavila> i've gone up to him on irc before and just asked what MNT is up to
<midfavila> he's super willing to chat as long as you aren't a prick
<Gremlin8483> i mean im happy to pay 1k for good hardware
<Gremlin8483> as long as it being fairly charged
<midfavila> the question is whether or not you consider things other than pure specs to be points towards "good hardware"
<Gremlin8483> for reference that is the price of 2 or 3 high end enterprise notebooks off ebay
<midfavila> yep
<midfavila> and every single one of those will run circles around the computers that MNT builds
<midfavila> if you want piles of memory and 16-core x86_64 cores and five-day battery life, go buy one of those
<midfavila> s/cores/CPUs/
<Gremlin8483> i definitely appreciate what they've done i think the biggest point as both of us have pointed out is the price point
<midfavila> yes but again it comes back to TCO
<midfavila> if you buy one of those "high end" notebooks, it's probably going to break and need to be outright replaced in the coming years
<Gremlin8483> if they want this stuff to be adoptable for example have future potential they should start with a lower price and then as more people buy it that will be better moneymaker than setting a high entry price
<midfavila> again, you clearly don't understand what MNT is doing if you look at it with that mindset
<midfavila> this isn't a razor and blades model
<Gremlin8483> fair enough
<midfavila> MNT is charging you what they *need* to charge you in order for MNT to continue existing
<Gremlin8483> i dont know abuot what they are doing honestly
<midfavila> they aren't trying to pull a fast one. they *need* the money to recoup R&D expenses
<Gremlin8483> i do hope it works out
<Gremlin8483> maybe 500 in the upcoming years if they are successful and im in
<midfavila> not unlikely
<midfavila> i know that once i have the money i'm going to buy one
<midfavila> i intend to put KISS on it, and then get rid of my phone and laptop
<Gremlin8483> nice, you give us the down and dirty once you get it
<Gremlin8483> wait it can do phone calls??
<midfavila> don't need to tell me to :p
<Gremlin8483> omg
<midfavila> no
<Gremlin8483> oh
<midfavila> well
<midfavila> maybe
<midfavila> you could probably hack it to place calls
<Gremlin8483> needs cellular hardware
<midfavila> you can install a modem ez
<midfavila> the question is whether it'll work
<Gremlin8483> if they can be as successful as the rasp pi
<midfavila> they won't be
<Gremlin8483> that would be beneficial for the libre community
<midfavila> their hardware isn't commodity
<Gremlin8483> i know
<midfavila> it will *never* be as cheap as a competitor's option
<midfavila> for example, look at the GPD devices
<midfavila> way, way more power for way less
<Gremlin8483> i def agree
<Gremlin8483> wasnt expeecting dirt cheap
<Gremlin8483> but 500 would be ideal for me
<Gremlin8483> obviously they dictate the price, not me
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<testuser[m]> Hi
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<sewn> Hi
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<Gremlin8483> yo
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<sad_plan> hi
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