<midfavila>
wael[m] not everyone running kiss uses busybox
<midfavila>
and some people don't like sysv-style init
<wael[m]>
would they be using toybox?
<midfavila>
they could use whatever coreutils they wanted
<midfavila>
i use a combination of suckless, plan9, bsd and self-written tools, myself
<midfavila>
with a handful of GNU programs
<wael[m]>
so what does /bin/cat belong to
<midfavila>
my own utils
<wael[m]>
and /bin/tar
<midfavila>
libarchive, which I believe is commonly used on the BSDs
<wael[m]>
you might as well call it coreutil cocktail
<wael[m]>
so you dont have a primary coreutils, you have many programs belonging to plan9port, sbase/ubase, self-written, gnu?
<midfavila>
yes
<wael[m]>
but why
<midfavila>
generally I prefer the suckless utilities, but they don't cover all usecases (for example, their tar is lacklustre, and they lack goodies like fortune). plan 9 can fill in for some of the goodies, but the p9 coreutils aren't posix. when i need something more featureful than suckless and more compliant than p9, bsd offers utilities that fit that niche. when I absolutely need GNU tools (for projects that require them), those are there
<wael[m]>
are you on KISS? and if so do you maintain these as KISS packages?
<midfavila>
yes and yes.
<wael[m]>
can i have repoz linkz plz
<midfavila>
but my system is, aside from using the kiss package manager, unrecognizable as a kiss system
<midfavila>
note that I use the older format for my packages, so it might be incompatible with your system
<wael[m]>
older format?
<midfavila>
static package format, instead of using the KISS DSL
<wael[m]>
jesus christ
<wael[m]>
you KNOW your software VERY well it seems
<midfavila>
kinda-sorta
<wael[m]>
personally im fine with busybox, though i like the features of util-linux unfortunately
<midfavila>
i think i only use fdisk from util-linux
<wael[m]>
i want to use toybox considering its toolset but its apparently incomplete and unstable
<midfavila>
so I've heard
<midfavila>
i've not looked at it
<wael[m]>
i havent tried it but i wont try it
<midfavila>
i have no interest in *box-style executables
<wael[m]>
sbase is often compiled in box-style
<midfavila>
i'm aware. i avoid doing so
<wael[m]>
why?
<midfavila>
i don't like the idea of a single file being the only thing that needs to be removed or damaged to render my entire system inoperable
<wael[m]>
but interms of size and linking, wouldnt it be better?
<midfavila>
in terms of disk size, and perhaps memory usage, but I'm not concerned about a few extra megs of disk space being taken up
<midfavila>
performance isn't a concern for me.
<midfavila>
i'm more interested in having a relatively stable and easy to understand system than anything else
<wael[m]>
quite interesting considering you have a coreutils cocktail lol
<midfavila>
having a set of separate utility programs that each do one defined task is in my opinion a simpler design than having a single monolithic executable that does everything.
<wael[m]>
true
<midfavila>
having separate vendors provide different aspects of my system doesn't increase the system's complexity
<midfavila>
although it does perhaps make maintaining it slightly more tedious
<wael[m]>
ill take a look into sbase/ubase and see if it has the features i need
<wael[m]>
however what is the 'plan9' coreutils?
<wael[m]>
considering its for plan9 wouldnt it be incompatible with linux
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
porting plan 9 programs to unix is trivial because of how portable plan 9 programs already are
<wael[m]>
where can i obtain the sources so i can try it
<midfavila>
the p9port and 9base both include the p9 c library and things like yacc and stuff
<wael[m]>
and the same for 'bsd' thing
<midfavila>
some tools used in the BSDs can be acquired outside of their source tree
<midfavila>
for example, I believe the package in my repo called "gavin-bc" is the basis for the fBSD bc
<wael[m]>
itnerseting
<midfavila>
you can also use plan9port on github if you want a more complete p9 experience under linux
<midfavila>
it includes things like rio
<wael[m]>
i do not know exactly what kind of features i expect from coreutils ngl
<midfavila>
you should perhaps consider that before experimenting with them
<midfavila>
it's easy to get yourself in a bit of a pickle if you just start swapping things out
<wael[m]>
for one, i am scared of suckless coreutils as it could have many features that i would expect removed
<midfavila>
almost certainly does
<midfavila>
for example, suckless sed has no -i
<wael[m]>
for example tar
<wael[m]>
tar xvf GNU syntax does not work
<midfavila>
there's a patch for it in the community repos
<wael[m]>
ah
<midfavila>
since my package is a fork of that, it should also include that patch
<wael[m]>
what kind of utilities have you explicitly removed/ignored from sbase to be replaced by plan9/bsd/gnu ?
<midfavila>
plan 9 is exclusively for supplementing my userspace
<midfavila>
it replaces nothing
<wael[m]>
testuser: how is s6 service management compared to runit
<midfavila>
bsd or bsd-style tools provide my system's bc and tar at the very least
<midfavila>
gnu provides make, diffutils and patch
<wael[m]>
midfavila: utilities like the ones sbase provides? if so what is the purpose of sbase
<testuser[m]>
Idk I just started using it
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<testuser[m]>
Will know in some days
<midfavila>
sbase and ubase provide the foundation for a unix userspace
<wael[m]>
hm
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<midfavila>
sbase and ubase don't include some of the more complex elements however
<midfavila>
for example they don't include awk, or a shell, or yacc, etc
<midfavila>
which is where the supplements come in
<wael[m]>
and plan9 provides that?
<midfavila>
no. plan 9 provides miscellany
<midfavila>
nothing essential to the system
<wael[m]>
so what supplies the shell, awk, yacc, etc?
<midfavila>
shell is dash, awk is the one true awk (descendent of the original awk), yacc is a berkeley package
<wael[m]>
byacc?
<midfavila>
yes
<wael[m]>
what about bison?
<wael[m]>
how would linux compile without bison
<midfavila>
the system is not wholly self-hosting
<midfavila>
(that repo is also slightly out of date)
<wael[m]>
wholly?
<midfavila>
in something's entirety
<midfavila>
the base system cannot compile every element of the base system
<midfavila>
specifically, util-linux, musl and the kernel cannot be built
<wael[m]>
thats weird
<midfavila>
this is a consequence of not using tcc
<midfavila>
s/tcc/gcc/
<midfavila>
(tcc is the development toolchain in use)
<wael[m]>
ahhh ok makes sense
<wael[m]>
so then how do you compile projects that need CMake, LLVM, meson, Rust, etc?
<midfavila>
i don't :D
<midfavila>
none of that software is relevant to me
<wael[m]>
so interesting
<wael[m]>
so then what is your browser then?
<midfavila>
links
<midfavila>
although I need to patch it to work with bearssl
<wael[m]>
what about elinks?
<midfavila>
using a terminal to run a text browser when the browser has a graphics mode is less efficient
<midfavila>
by a considerable degree
<wael[m]>
btw testuser : i wanted to ask, why is Flatpak reliant on util-linux?
<wael[m]>
midfavila: so links can be GUI?
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
(i also just don't see a reason to use elinks)
<wael[m]>
howww???
<midfavila>
links -g
<wael[m]>
oh wait is it link2 or just links
<midfavila>
links2
<wael[m]>
theres links2-mod in your repo
<wael[m]>
the one in Community repo is the OG links?
<midfavila>
links2-mod includes a patch to add xembed support
<midfavila>
so that it can be used with tabbed
<wael[m]>
also links2-mod is in mbase which literally is empty
<midfavila>
yes, most of the files there are either symlinks or touch'd
<wael[m]>
nvm found it
<midfavila>
the only reason they're there is so I can cd mbase;kiss b *
<wael[m]>
also, what provides /bin/curl for you?
<midfavila>
nothing
<midfavila>
i don't use curl
<wael[m]>
wait what
<wael[m]>
WH
<wael[m]>
what do you use then
<midfavila>
axel
<midfavila>
i'm also working (slowly) on writing my own barebones http client to replace axel/curl/wget/whatever
<wael[m]>
also weird links -g gives me BadDrawable X11 error
<midfavila>
(the system can't build axel at the moment so I'm relying on a statically-linked binary from another machine)
<midfavila>
links-mod's patch is kind of wonky
<midfavila>
the dude who wrote it was in a hurry
<midfavila>
you need to open it in a tabbed instance
<wael[m]>
theres hurl
<wael[m]>
which aims to replace curl
<wael[m]>
midfavila: aw wt ok
<midfavila>
i don't want a curl replacement
<midfavila>
nor do i want someone else's software
<wael[m]>
damn
<midfavila>
eventually I hope to run almost or entirely my own code
<wael[m]>
so when are you going to make midkernel
<midfavila>
once I have midutils and midgui
<midfavila>
both of which are planned
<midfavila>
i *will* spend all of my time writing obscure shitty software, i will *not* program for a corporation, i will *not* be a wagie, i *will* become increasingly paranoid and schizophrenic
<wael[m]>
you are so mid
<midfavila>
thank you uwu
<wael[m]>
also does links in gui mode just not be able to preview images
<midfavila>
links in gui mode requires libpng but no other image libraries by default
<midfavila>
check the buildfile, i might have disabled image support mostly
<wael[m]>
i have libpng already
<wael[m]>
i dont believe you have
<wael[m]>
i dont see --without-libpng
<midfavila>
then idk what to tell you
<midfavila>
werks on my machine
<wael[m]>
well tbf links is like very unusable for what i do lol
* midfavila
shrugs
<wael[m]>
i am probably the most bloated kiss user at the moment
<midfavila>
i don't really use the web much
<midfavila>
most of what i do do (downloading music and reading plaintext) links handles adequately
<midfavila>
browsing invidious via links is quite comfy
<wael[m]>
which is exported to mpv right? RIGHT??
<midfavila>
no, why would i use mpv
<midfavila>
i use ffplay
<wael[m]>
does links have its own fucking video player
<midfavila>
no
<wael[m]>
oh
<wael[m]>
i use mpv because ffplay just does not render shit
<midfavila>
haven't experienced that
<wael[m]>
also ffplay does need sdl2 so
<midfavila>
and mpv doesn't?
<wael[m]>
um yeah
<midfavila>
interesting, i thought it did
<wael[m]>
ffplay does use sdl2 as backend
<wael[m]>
i believe
<midfavila>
it appears to link to it
<wael[m]>
ffmpeg automatically installs ffplay when sdl2 is present
<testuser[m]>
midfavila: what if you want to access a js infested site
<midfavila>
testuser[m] i don't want to
<midfavila>
in the very unusual case i absolutely *have* to, my desktop has a fork of pale moon installed
<midfavila>
i actually have it open in the screenshot i posted
<midfavila>
just minimized
<wael[m]>
how do you live
<wael[m]>
do you just live in a seperate universe or something
<wael[m]>
where you dont live in a world like ours
<midfavila>
no
<midfavila>
i just don't do the sorts of things most people do
<midfavila>
whether for work or pleasure
<testuser[m]>
What if some govt site
<midfavila>
the government can deal with me in person
<testuser[m]>
Video call or something
<midfavila>
i don't own a video camera
<midfavila>
and, anyway, even if I did, it would probably require I use some sort of proprietary software - I'm at the point where I'm willing to be a bit of a pariah to avoid that
<testuser[m]>
U had a blackberry or someth phone running linux right
<testuser[m]>
Idk
<midfavila>
i use an old blackberry as my primary phone, yes
<midfavila>
unfortunately there are no providers of landline service in my area
<midfavila>
otherwise i would continue to use my rotary telephone
<testuser[m]>
U ever need to use location services
<midfavila>
if i do, i download a map onto my tablet or print it out
<midfavila>
if i get lost, i just ask someone for directions
* midfavila
shrugs
<testuser[m]>
What tablet
<midfavila>
pinenote
<testuser[m]>
hmmmm
<midfavila>
runs almost stock AOSP and i'm going to be installing linux on it as soon as that's possible
<phoebos>
gavin-bc is the basis for most bc/dcs including busybox's bigger version
<midfavila>
makes sense
<midfavila>
it's a pretty swell program
<midfavila>
i'm pretty excited to learn about metacompilers and stuff so that I can write my own bc and friends
<midfavila>
could write a parser by hand but that's far beyond me for anything complex
<phoebos>
mid, do you ever consider just trying to implement something using methods you already know, rather than learning a "better" method first
<midfavila>
yes, I do
<midfavila>
if you want the honest answer, whenever I do that I end up feeling like a piece of shit afterward
<midfavila>
because it inevitably turns out to be of hilariously low quality
* midfavila
shrugs
<phoebos>
lol
<midfavila>
it's stupid but true
<phoebos>
fair enough
<midfavila>
i once spent an entire week freaking out over how to "properly" parse program parameters in C because ye olden getopt for-loop makes me feel dirty
<midfavila>
(if you look at the screenshot from earlier you'll notice that I eventually learned to cope with that)
<phoebos>
i use while with getopt
<phoebos>
are you still on fvwm?
<midfavila>
i haven't used fvwm in at least a year
<midfavila>
i'm using twm
<phoebos>
ah nice
<midfavila>
phoebos, i avoid while on principle
<midfavila>
perhaps a bit less efficient and silly, but there have been a number of subtle off-by-ones that i experience using whiles
<phoebos>
it's just a simpler version of for
<midfavila>
then again, the compiler probably optimizes any differences away
<phoebos>
but why do you need an incrementing variable during getopt parsing
<midfavila>
you don't
<phoebos>
> i++
<phoebos>
in your code
<midfavila>
yes, technically you don't
<midfavila>
i'm just fucking around right now
<phoebos>
ok
<midfavila>
been a while since i've used optarg so i forgot that optind is a thing
<midfavila>
originally the idea was to increment i with each to keep track of the argv, but a) that wouldn't work and b) optind renders that redundant
<phoebos>
> i'm dedicated to using only athena
<phoebos>
friendship ended with motif?
<midfavila>
yes
<phoebos>
why
<midfavila>
motif is perhaps the only software package that suffers from over documentation
<midfavila>
and it also doesn't build on the new version of my distro
<midfavila>
so unless i can get it to, I'm not going to bother with motif
<phoebos>
ok. i stopped writing for athena because it's a pita
<midfavila>
yes, it seems to be that way
<midfavila>
two questions since you have experience with it
<phoebos>
motif is less so
<midfavila>
1) do you have any useful docs
<midfavila>
2) can I see your programs
<midfavila>
there's painfully little to reference to learn athena
<phoebos>
err, "experience"
<midfavila>
you've presumably written more than i have
<midfavila>
which is very, very little
<phoebos>
i think i've posted links to what i used as docs, it was mostly the xorg docs
<phoebos>
which are woefully incomplete
<midfavila>
yeah that's what i figured
<midfavila>
. _.
<phoebos>
let me see if i can find any of the code i wrote
<midfavila>
this is the most authoritative site on it i've found
<midfavila>
based on the contents of the screenshot on that site, it's fast enough to be usable on old Suns without acceleration
<midfavila>
so it should be *more* than usable on a modern machine using a generic framebuffer interface
<midfavila>
main problem would be finding or creating a specification i think
<midfavila>
man, I wish Links2 allowed you to pass links to other programs, instead of just data
<midfavila>
match using regex or something
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<phinxy>
I can't remember in what directory scancode mapping is done. Help.
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<phinxy>
I.e map Insert key to whatever else but also different Shift levels.
<sad_plan>
o/
<midfavila>
hello, sad_plan
<sad_plan>
hey midfavila. how you doing?
<midfavila>
doing okay
<midfavila>
working on my coreutils on and off
<midfavila>
only half-asleep today instead of three-quarters, so I'm actually able to kind of focus
<midfavila>
you?
<phinxy>
Found it; /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols
<sad_plan>
I see. any good progress?
<midfavila>
okay progress
<midfavila>
haven't gotten anything impressive written
<midfavila>
sleep is implemented now, and wc is just about done
<sad_plan>
im good ig. been messing with oasis lately, and trying to figure out a sane way to combine kiss and oasis..
<midfavila>
does oasis not use git as a package manager
<sad_plan>
nice. maybe Ill check it out some time around. maybe I can learn something from it too.
<midfavila>
i'd be pleased if anyone looked at my shitty programs lmao
<sad_plan>
well.. its not really a package manager. its more of a config file, which gives a set of rules really
<midfavila>
even better if you can somehow learn something from me
<midfavila>
anyway, literal package manager or not, if it serves the practical role of a package manager then kiss immediately conflicts with it
<midfavila>
considering... you know. kiss is nothing *but* a package manager
<sad_plan>
lol, your knowledge has been good to me anyhow. seeing as youve successfully answered some of my questions :p I value that anyway
<sad_plan>
it does
<sad_plan>
oasis also *uses* pkgsrc, from netbsd
<sad_plan>
which i suppose is fine, but their repo hasnt been updated since february. which isnt ideal imo..
<sad_plan>
I also really like kiss for it simplicity in terms of packaging my own software
<midfavila>
idk maybe you could hack something up in awk and shell to generate kiss packages from oasis config files
<midfavila>
then use those to generate rootfses
* midfavila
shrugs
<sad_plan>
yeah, I was thinking about trying to use the oasis config file as far as I could. I suppose I could package more or less everything except the browser part. seeing as webkit i.e. or firefox is just not feasable to do that way..
<sad_plan>
I just need to figure out how it worked. I did try to package fzy, just to try something simple, but ive yet to figure out how I was supposed to include the config.h file, which I needed. Ill look into it next week I suppose. ill be working late, and people might actually be online then :')
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<joshsmt>
Hello guys
<joshsmt>
how can i install a specific package that has the same name as a package that is already in another repository?
<sad_plan>
joshsmt: the same way you install every other package?
<sad_plan>
just cd into its dir, and kiss b
<midfavila>
you can cd into a directory and kiss b without an argument to forcibly build the package- yeah
<midfavila>
i believe you can also provide a path to the specific package you want
<joshsmt>
but when this package updates, will it update the other one?
<sad_plan>
no, that doesnt actually work. ive tried that the other day.
<sad_plan>
its updated when the repo which has the highest priority updates it
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<joshsmt>
to put a repository with high property, you just need to put it first, right?
<sad_plan>
it just needs to be higher than the other one. or you could make a local repo, with only that package symlinked, and put that on top. essesntually just creating an override
<joshsmt>
oh ok thx
<sad_plan>
if you have repo1 and repo2, in you KISS_PATH, and you want pkg x from repo2 to be used, repo2 either has to be over repo1, or youd have to create a override like I said
<sad_plan>
np
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<phinxy>
Is there a kbd package with loadkeys to generate binary keymaps?