ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
vulpine is now known as ghoulpine
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<sad_plan> o/
<wael[m]> hi
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<testuser[m]> Hi
<testuser[m]> rohan: Wdym "pulls still in my git account"
<sad_plan> Im guessing it didnt get moved over to codeberg when he moved from github to codeberg
<testuser[m]> What didn't move over
<testuser[m]> new pulls?
<sad_plan> his existing PRs
<sad_plan> thats atleast my guess here :p
<testuser[m]> no
<testuser[m]> Everything is copied
<wael[m]> idk if he means PRs from other repos or existing PRs in codeberg kiss repos
<wael[m]> if existing PRs in migrated codeberg repo with github linked account you should be good as @testuser said
<sad_plan> then Im not sure what he means.
* sad_plan shrugs
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<sad_plan> why cant I pre set dimentions for firefox window in command line? doesnt it work?
<sad_plan> nevermind, Ive found it. my user.js had pre set it already, so had to change it
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<sad_plan> there were no pr made though
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<sereg> we have a song of the day !? learn something new everyday
<wael[m]> real
<sereg> oh i love mandolin!
<sereg> kisslinux has good taste confirmed
<testuser[m]> Is anyone running s6
<testuser[m]> How tf do you even set it up
<wael[m]> whats the point of s6 if busybox comes with runit
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<testuser[m]> Figured it out
<midfavila> wael[m] not everyone running kiss uses busybox
<midfavila> and some people don't like sysv-style init
<wael[m]> would they be using toybox?
<midfavila> they could use whatever coreutils they wanted
<midfavila> i use a combination of suckless, plan9, bsd and self-written tools, myself
<midfavila> with a handful of GNU programs
<wael[m]> so what does /bin/cat belong to
<midfavila> my own utils
<wael[m]> and /bin/tar
<midfavila> libarchive, which I believe is commonly used on the BSDs
<wael[m]> you might as well call it coreutil cocktail
<wael[m]> so you dont have a primary coreutils, you have many programs belonging to plan9port, sbase/ubase, self-written, gnu?
<midfavila> yes
<wael[m]> but why
<midfavila> generally I prefer the suckless utilities, but they don't cover all usecases (for example, their tar is lacklustre, and they lack goodies like fortune). plan 9 can fill in for some of the goodies, but the p9 coreutils aren't posix. when i need something more featureful than suckless and more compliant than p9, bsd offers utilities that fit that niche. when I absolutely need GNU tools (for projects that require them), those are there
<wael[m]> are you on KISS? and if so do you maintain these as KISS packages?
<midfavila> yes and yes.
<wael[m]> can i have repoz linkz plz
<midfavila> but my system is, aside from using the kiss package manager, unrecognizable as a kiss system
<midfavila> note that I use the older format for my packages, so it might be incompatible with your system
<wael[m]> older format?
<midfavila> static package format, instead of using the KISS DSL
<wael[m]> jesus christ
<wael[m]> you KNOW your software VERY well it seems
<midfavila> kinda-sorta
<wael[m]> personally im fine with busybox, though i like the features of util-linux unfortunately
<midfavila> i think i only use fdisk from util-linux
<wael[m]> i want to use toybox considering its toolset but its apparently incomplete and unstable
<midfavila> so I've heard
<midfavila> i've not looked at it
<wael[m]> i havent tried it but i wont try it
<midfavila> i have no interest in *box-style executables
<wael[m]> sbase is often compiled in box-style
<midfavila> i'm aware. i avoid doing so
<wael[m]> why?
<midfavila> i don't like the idea of a single file being the only thing that needs to be removed or damaged to render my entire system inoperable
<wael[m]> but interms of size and linking, wouldnt it be better?
<midfavila> in terms of disk size, and perhaps memory usage, but I'm not concerned about a few extra megs of disk space being taken up
<midfavila> performance isn't a concern for me.
<midfavila> i'm more interested in having a relatively stable and easy to understand system than anything else
<wael[m]> quite interesting considering you have a coreutils cocktail lol
<midfavila> having a set of separate utility programs that each do one defined task is in my opinion a simpler design than having a single monolithic executable that does everything.
<wael[m]> true
<midfavila> having separate vendors provide different aspects of my system doesn't increase the system's complexity
<midfavila> although it does perhaps make maintaining it slightly more tedious
<wael[m]> ill take a look into sbase/ubase and see if it has the features i need
<wael[m]> however what is the 'plan9' coreutils?
<wael[m]> considering its for plan9 wouldnt it be incompatible with linux
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> porting plan 9 programs to unix is trivial because of how portable plan 9 programs already are
<wael[m]> where can i obtain the sources so i can try it
<midfavila> the p9port and 9base both include the p9 c library and things like yacc and stuff
<wael[m]> and the same for 'bsd' thing
<midfavila> some tools used in the BSDs can be acquired outside of their source tree
<midfavila> for example, I believe the package in my repo called "gavin-bc" is the basis for the fBSD bc
<wael[m]> itnerseting
<midfavila> you can also use plan9port on github if you want a more complete p9 experience under linux
<midfavila> it includes things like rio
<wael[m]> i do not know exactly what kind of features i expect from coreutils ngl
<midfavila> you should perhaps consider that before experimenting with them
<midfavila> it's easy to get yourself in a bit of a pickle if you just start swapping things out
<wael[m]> for one, i am scared of suckless coreutils as it could have many features that i would expect removed
<midfavila> almost certainly does
<midfavila> for example, suckless sed has no -i
<wael[m]> for example tar
<wael[m]> tar xvf GNU syntax does not work
<midfavila> there's a patch for it in the community repos
<wael[m]> ah
<midfavila> since my package is a fork of that, it should also include that patch
<wael[m]> what kind of utilities have you explicitly removed/ignored from sbase to be replaced by plan9/bsd/gnu ?
<testuser[m]> s6
<midfavila> plan 9 is exclusively for supplementing my userspace
<midfavila> it replaces nothing
<wael[m]> testuser: how is s6 service management compared to runit
<midfavila> bsd or bsd-style tools provide my system's bc and tar at the very least
<midfavila> gnu provides make, diffutils and patch
<wael[m]> midfavila: utilities like the ones sbase provides? if so what is the purpose of sbase
<testuser[m]> Idk I just started using it
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<testuser[m]> Will know in some days
<midfavila> sbase and ubase provide the foundation for a unix userspace
<wael[m]> hm
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<midfavila> sbase and ubase don't include some of the more complex elements however
<midfavila> for example they don't include awk, or a shell, or yacc, etc
<midfavila> which is where the supplements come in
<wael[m]> and plan9 provides that?
<midfavila> no. plan 9 provides miscellany
<midfavila> nothing essential to the system
<wael[m]> so what supplies the shell, awk, yacc, etc?
<midfavila> shell is dash, awk is the one true awk (descendent of the original awk), yacc is a berkeley package
<wael[m]> byacc?
<midfavila> yes
<wael[m]> what about bison?
<wael[m]> how would linux compile without bison
<midfavila> the system is not wholly self-hosting
<midfavila> (that repo is also slightly out of date)
<wael[m]> wholly?
<midfavila> in something's entirety
<midfavila> the base system cannot compile every element of the base system
<midfavila> specifically, util-linux, musl and the kernel cannot be built
<wael[m]> thats weird
<midfavila> this is a consequence of not using tcc
<midfavila> s/tcc/gcc/
<midfavila> (tcc is the development toolchain in use)
<wael[m]> ahhh ok makes sense
<wael[m]> so then how do you compile projects that need CMake, LLVM, meson, Rust, etc?
<midfavila> i don't :D
<midfavila> none of that software is relevant to me
<wael[m]> so interesting
<wael[m]> so then what is your browser then?
<midfavila> links
<midfavila> although I need to patch it to work with bearssl
<wael[m]> what about elinks?
<midfavila> using a terminal to run a text browser when the browser has a graphics mode is less efficient
<midfavila> by a considerable degree
<wael[m]> btw testuser : i wanted to ask, why is Flatpak reliant on util-linux?
<wael[m]> midfavila: so links can be GUI?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> (i also just don't see a reason to use elinks)
<wael[m]> howww???
<midfavila> links -g
<wael[m]> oh wait is it link2 or just links
<midfavila> links2
<wael[m]> theres links2-mod in your repo
<wael[m]> the one in Community repo is the OG links?
<midfavila> links2-mod includes a patch to add xembed support
<midfavila> so that it can be used with tabbed
<wael[m]> also links2-mod is in mbase which literally is empty
<midfavila> yes, most of the files there are either symlinks or touch'd
<wael[m]> nvm found it
<midfavila> the only reason they're there is so I can cd mbase;kiss b *
<wael[m]> also, what provides /bin/curl for you?
<midfavila> nothing
<midfavila> i don't use curl
<wael[m]> wait what
<wael[m]> WH
<wael[m]> what do you use then
<midfavila> axel
<midfavila> i'm also working (slowly) on writing my own barebones http client to replace axel/curl/wget/whatever
<wael[m]> also weird links -g gives me BadDrawable X11 error
<midfavila> (the system can't build axel at the moment so I'm relying on a statically-linked binary from another machine)
<midfavila> links-mod's patch is kind of wonky
<midfavila> the dude who wrote it was in a hurry
<midfavila> you need to open it in a tabbed instance
<wael[m]> theres hurl
<wael[m]> which aims to replace curl
<wael[m]> midfavila: aw wt ok
<midfavila> i don't want a curl replacement
<midfavila> nor do i want someone else's software
<wael[m]> damn
<midfavila> eventually I hope to run almost or entirely my own code
<wael[m]> so when are you going to make midkernel
<midfavila> once I have midutils and midgui
<midfavila> both of which are planned
<midfavila> i *will* spend all of my time writing obscure shitty software, i will *not* program for a corporation, i will *not* be a wagie, i *will* become increasingly paranoid and schizophrenic
<wael[m]> you are so mid
<midfavila> thank you uwu
<wael[m]> also does links in gui mode just not be able to preview images
<midfavila> links in gui mode requires libpng but no other image libraries by default
<midfavila> check the buildfile, i might have disabled image support mostly
<wael[m]> i have libpng already
<wael[m]> i dont believe you have
<wael[m]> i dont see --without-libpng
<midfavila> then idk what to tell you
<midfavila> werks on my machine
<wael[m]> well tbf links is like very unusable for what i do lol
* midfavila shrugs
<wael[m]> i am probably the most bloated kiss user at the moment
<midfavila> i don't really use the web much
<midfavila> most of what i do do (downloading music and reading plaintext) links handles adequately
<midfavila> browsing invidious via links is quite comfy
<wael[m]> which is exported to mpv right? RIGHT??
<midfavila> no, why would i use mpv
<midfavila> i use ffplay
<wael[m]> does links have its own fucking video player
<midfavila> no
<wael[m]> oh
<wael[m]> i use mpv because ffplay just does not render shit
<midfavila> haven't experienced that
<wael[m]> also ffplay does need sdl2 so
<midfavila> and mpv doesn't?
<wael[m]> um yeah
<midfavila> interesting, i thought it did
<wael[m]> ffplay does use sdl2 as backend
<wael[m]> i believe
<midfavila> it appears to link to it
<wael[m]> ffmpeg automatically installs ffplay when sdl2 is present
<wael[m]> as ffplay relies on it for backend
<midfavila> this is my desktop machine, if you were curious
<midfavila> it runs an older version of my distro so it's not quite as minimal as what I was describing
<wael[m]> what fucking year are you in right now
<midfavila> current year
<wael[m]> which is??!?!!?
<midfavila> 1986 obviously
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<wael[m]> bro
<wael[m]> anyway using the same video ffplay just does black
<wael[m]> displays audio but no video
<midfavila> hit w
<wael[m]> nothing happens
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<midfavila> hit it again
<wael[m]> I AM
<midfavila> rip
<midfavila> dunno what to tell you then
<midfavila> relax my dude.
<wael[m]> cant use ffplay smh
<midfavila> ^song of the day suggestion
<midfavila> anyway if you think my setup looks ancient just wait until i start developing gui programs
<midfavila> i'm dedicated to using only athena
<wael[m]> whats a athena
<midfavila> the standard x11 toolkit
<midfavila> also called xaw
<midfavila> the x athena widgets
<wael[m]> the font in your setup is the only thing keeping your setup modern
<midfavila> not for long :D
<midfavila> new distro release doesn't support scalable fonts
<wael[m]> what are you going to switch to
<midfavila> leggie probably
<midfavila> pronounced ledgie
<midfavila> just wait until i revert to using an 80486
<testuser[m]> wael: sdl2 update broke tons of configurations which included nvidia systems
<testuser[m]> apply patch from grepo nvidia overrides
<wael[m]> could that be why ffplay is broken?
<testuser[m]> obv
<wael[m]> omw
<midfavila> i'll need to get some CRTs if I want to switch actually, hrm
<testuser[m]> Apply as in revert
<midfavila> my current displays are perhaps overkill
<wael[m]> testuser: add-av_stream_get_first_dts-for-chromium.patch
<wael[m]> ?
<testuser[m]> bruh
<testuser[m]> sdl patch
<testuser[m]> not ffmpeg
<wael[m]> oh
<testuser[m]> midfavila: what if you want to access a js infested site
<midfavila> testuser[m] i don't want to
<midfavila> in the very unusual case i absolutely *have* to, my desktop has a fork of pale moon installed
<midfavila> i actually have it open in the screenshot i posted
<midfavila> just minimized
<wael[m]> how do you live
<wael[m]> do you just live in a seperate universe or something
<wael[m]> where you dont live in a world like ours
<midfavila> no
<midfavila> i just don't do the sorts of things most people do
<midfavila> whether for work or pleasure
<testuser[m]> What if some govt site
<midfavila> the government can deal with me in person
<testuser[m]> Video call or something
<midfavila> i don't own a video camera
<midfavila> and, anyway, even if I did, it would probably require I use some sort of proprietary software - I'm at the point where I'm willing to be a bit of a pariah to avoid that
<testuser[m]> U had a blackberry or someth phone running linux right
<testuser[m]> Idk
<midfavila> i use an old blackberry as my primary phone, yes
<midfavila> unfortunately there are no providers of landline service in my area
<midfavila> otherwise i would continue to use my rotary telephone
<testuser[m]> U ever need to use location services
<midfavila> if i do, i download a map onto my tablet or print it out
<midfavila> if i get lost, i just ask someone for directions
* midfavila shrugs
<testuser[m]> What tablet
<midfavila> pinenote
<testuser[m]> hmmmm
<midfavila> runs almost stock AOSP and i'm going to be installing linux on it as soon as that's possible
<phoebos> gavin-bc is the basis for most bc/dcs including busybox's bigger version
<midfavila> makes sense
<midfavila> it's a pretty swell program
<midfavila> i'm pretty excited to learn about metacompilers and stuff so that I can write my own bc and friends
<midfavila> could write a parser by hand but that's far beyond me for anything complex
<phoebos> mid, do you ever consider just trying to implement something using methods you already know, rather than learning a "better" method first
<midfavila> yes, I do
<midfavila> if you want the honest answer, whenever I do that I end up feeling like a piece of shit afterward
<midfavila> because it inevitably turns out to be of hilariously low quality
* midfavila shrugs
<phoebos> lol
<midfavila> it's stupid but true
<phoebos> fair enough
<midfavila> i once spent an entire week freaking out over how to "properly" parse program parameters in C because ye olden getopt for-loop makes me feel dirty
<midfavila> (if you look at the screenshot from earlier you'll notice that I eventually learned to cope with that)
<phoebos> i use while with getopt
<phoebos> are you still on fvwm?
<midfavila> i haven't used fvwm in at least a year
<midfavila> i'm using twm
<phoebos> ah nice
<midfavila> phoebos, i avoid while on principle
<midfavila> perhaps a bit less efficient and silly, but there have been a number of subtle off-by-ones that i experience using whiles
<phoebos> it's just a simpler version of for
<midfavila> then again, the compiler probably optimizes any differences away
<phoebos> but why do you need an incrementing variable during getopt parsing
<midfavila> you don't
<phoebos> > i++
<phoebos> in your code
<midfavila> yes, technically you don't
<midfavila> i'm just fucking around right now
<phoebos> ok
<midfavila> been a while since i've used optarg so i forgot that optind is a thing
<midfavila> originally the idea was to increment i with each to keep track of the argv, but a) that wouldn't work and b) optind renders that redundant
<phoebos> > i'm dedicated to using only athena
<phoebos> friendship ended with motif?
<midfavila> yes
<phoebos> why
<midfavila> motif is perhaps the only software package that suffers from over documentation
<midfavila> and it also doesn't build on the new version of my distro
<midfavila> so unless i can get it to, I'm not going to bother with motif
<phoebos> ok. i stopped writing for athena because it's a pita
<midfavila> yes, it seems to be that way
<midfavila> two questions since you have experience with it
<phoebos> motif is less so
<midfavila> 1) do you have any useful docs
<midfavila> 2) can I see your programs
<midfavila> there's painfully little to reference to learn athena
<phoebos> err, "experience"
<midfavila> you've presumably written more than i have
<midfavila> which is very, very little
<phoebos> i think i've posted links to what i used as docs, it was mostly the xorg docs
<phoebos> which are woefully incomplete
<midfavila> yeah that's what i figured
<midfavila> . _.
<phoebos> let me see if i can find any of the code i wrote
<midfavila> that would be awesome
<midfavila> brb my soup is done
<phoebos> the text widgets are horrible
<phoebos> that's about as far as i got before giving up
<phoebos> the plan was to make a little irc client
<phoebos> window at the bottom to type in, press enter and it's sent, history displayed in the middle
<phoebos> but athena runs callbacks in strange orders which made it hard to get the text from the bottom box to the middle
<phoebos> by the way, the widget in XawTextReplace has to be the parent of the textSource, not the source itself. otherwise it just segfaults
<phoebos> documented *nowhere*
<phoebos> not even in the source
<phoebos> i'd imagine there's a lot of stuff like that
<midfavila> i was also planning on making an athena irc client
<midfavila> perhaps i should reconsider...
<midfavila> you're clearly a much better programmer than I, and if you're having trouble with it, I would likely struggle
<midfavila> the lack of available information also doesn't help... hrm
<phoebos> you're a lot more persistent than i am
<midfavila> perhaps
<midfavila> that reminds me, i need to submit a patch for Xaw
<midfavila> there's a malformed function call in its codebase
<midfavila> can't remember specifically where, think it was the scrollbar routines
<midfavila> one of the callbacks is given one parameter instead of the required two
<midfavila> it's in most (all?) xaw forks I've looked at too
<midfavila> clearly, we need a final solution to the toolkit problem
<midfavila> some kind of ubertoolkit
* midfavila hrmmms
<midfavila> if I had my way I wouldn't even use X
<midfavila> MGR is much more appealing
<midfavila> hundreds of thousands of lines of code versus like 60k
<midfavila> pretty easy choice
<phoebos> MGR?
<midfavila> ManaGeR
<midfavila> a windowing system from Bellcore
<midfavila> originated in the 80s
<midfavila> it's been described thusly: "MGR is to X as UNIX is to MULTICS"
<midfavila> like X, it's also network-transparent. unlike X, it doesn't try to be as flexible as possible
<midfavila> from what I can glean from the available information, it's basically one step up from something like TWIN
<midfavila> this is the most authoritative site on it i've found
<midfavila> based on the contents of the screenshot on that site, it's fast enough to be usable on old Suns without acceleration
<midfavila> so it should be *more* than usable on a modern machine using a generic framebuffer interface
<midfavila> main problem would be finding or creating a specification i think
<midfavila> man, I wish Links2 allowed you to pass links to other programs, instead of just data
<midfavila> match using regex or something
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<phinxy> I can't remember in what directory scancode mapping is done. Help.
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<phinxy> I.e map Insert key to whatever else but also different Shift levels.
<sad_plan> o/
<midfavila> hello, sad_plan
<sad_plan> hey midfavila. how you doing?
<midfavila> doing okay
<midfavila> working on my coreutils on and off
<midfavila> only half-asleep today instead of three-quarters, so I'm actually able to kind of focus
<midfavila> you?
<phinxy> Found it; /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols
<sad_plan> I see. any good progress?
<midfavila> okay progress
<midfavila> haven't gotten anything impressive written
<midfavila> sleep is implemented now, and wc is just about done
<sad_plan> im good ig. been messing with oasis lately, and trying to figure out a sane way to combine kiss and oasis..
<midfavila> does oasis not use git as a package manager
<sad_plan> nice. maybe Ill check it out some time around. maybe I can learn something from it too.
<midfavila> i'd be pleased if anyone looked at my shitty programs lmao
<sad_plan> well.. its not really a package manager. its more of a config file, which gives a set of rules really
<midfavila> even better if you can somehow learn something from me
<midfavila> anyway, literal package manager or not, if it serves the practical role of a package manager then kiss immediately conflicts with it
<midfavila> considering... you know. kiss is nothing *but* a package manager
<sad_plan> lol, your knowledge has been good to me anyhow. seeing as youve successfully answered some of my questions :p I value that anyway
<sad_plan> it does
<sad_plan> oasis also *uses* pkgsrc, from netbsd
<sad_plan> which i suppose is fine, but their repo hasnt been updated since february. which isnt ideal imo..
<sad_plan> I also really like kiss for it simplicity in terms of packaging my own software
<midfavila> idk maybe you could hack something up in awk and shell to generate kiss packages from oasis config files
<midfavila> then use those to generate rootfses
* midfavila shrugs
<sad_plan> yeah, I was thinking about trying to use the oasis config file as far as I could. I suppose I could package more or less everything except the browser part. seeing as webkit i.e. or firefox is just not feasable to do that way..
<sad_plan> I just need to figure out how it worked. I did try to package fzy, just to try something simple, but ive yet to figure out how I was supposed to include the config.h file, which I needed. Ill look into it next week I suppose. ill be working late, and people might actually be online then :')
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<joshsmt> Hello guys
<joshsmt> how can i install a specific package that has the same name as a package that is already in another repository?
<sad_plan> joshsmt: the same way you install every other package?
<sad_plan> just cd into its dir, and kiss b
<midfavila> you can cd into a directory and kiss b without an argument to forcibly build the package- yeah
<midfavila> i believe you can also provide a path to the specific package you want
<joshsmt> but when this package updates, will it update the other one?
<sad_plan> no, that doesnt actually work. ive tried that the other day.
<sad_plan> its updated when the repo which has the highest priority updates it
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<joshsmt> to put a repository with high property, you just need to put it first, right?
<sad_plan> it just needs to be higher than the other one. or you could make a local repo, with only that package symlinked, and put that on top. essesntually just creating an override
<joshsmt> oh ok thx
<sad_plan> if you have repo1 and repo2, in you KISS_PATH, and you want pkg x from repo2 to be used, repo2 either has to be over repo1, or youd have to create a override like I said
<sad_plan> np
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<phinxy> Is there a kbd package with loadkeys to generate binary keymaps?
<phoebos> bkeymaps has some
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