<jackdaniel>
NotThatRPG: in common lisp this toolage is called pretty printer and it allows to customize things among other things as you have described
<mariari>
sly sometimes makes weak hashtables annoying, given that it keeps a strong pointer to the data it seems?
<jackdaniel>
do you mean - to printed values?
<mariari>
well the presented value
<jackdaniel>
I think that this may be turned off, but then you can right-click on the object and inspect it
<mariari>
If you open the inspector on a weak hashtable, even if the keys are weak, they won't be reclaimed
<jackdaniel>
even after destroying the inspector buffer?
<mariari>
is there a better way to kill the inspector than killing the buffer?
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* jackdaniel
doesn't know
<mariari>
press q to call `sly-inspector-quit' seems not to do the trick either
<mariari>
I'll just create an issue for this, as it threw me off for a little bit
<mariari>
I have a minimal example now to file at least
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<attila_lendvai_>
pjb, antoszka, a couple of the hu.dwim repos are not yet converted to git, because there are multiple forks that i would like to be in git branches, and i haven't come around to finding out how to do the conversion
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<scymtym>
flip214: did the change for ALEXANDRIA:READ-STREAM-CONTENT-INTO-BYTE-VECTOR come with an explanation?
<ixelp>
[PATCH] Unnecessary copies and pitfalls in read-stream-content-into-byte-vector
<scymtym>
_death: thank you
<_death>
I've not looked at it in detail, but both the old and the new don't use adjust-array which is the first thing that came to my mind.. probably missing something
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<scymtym>
by not using %LENGTH, the new version seems to do an extra probing READ-BYTE even if the file size is known
<scymtym>
and yes, ADJUST-ARRAY might be better in any case
<scymtym>
or maybe allocating a sequence of progressively larger buffers and concatenating only in the end?
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<_death>
maybe if you allocate larger and larger arrays, you just need to fill the new portions.. in the end you fill the latest buffer with the old portions from the previous buffers
<_death>
that means you need to retain all those buffers though
<_death>
but I guess nobody should use read-stream-content-into-byte-vector when the buffer is expected to big anyway
<scymtym>
yes avoiding repeated copying would require retaining multiple buffers
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<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: The pretty-printer is generally ok, but it needs careful customization. I don't *think* anyone has ever created a pretty-printer table that provides some kind of aesthetic printing for standard Lisp s-expressions have they? We have cl-indent, but that works on strings, not s-expressions and doesn't do the line-breaking stuff that the pretty-printer can do.
<NotThatRPG>
Transforming that into a question: *is* there a pretty-print table for laying out common lisp code?
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<White_Flame>
what about the SLIME indentation code?
<White_Flame>
not specifically a printer though
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<NotThatRPG>
White_Flame: You mean swank-indentation.lisp ?
<White_Flame>
yeah, whichever end it ends up being in
<White_Flame>
and of course it all needs awareness of macro definitions to indent &body forms different than normal lists and such
<NotThatRPG>
That looks like a code-walker which means (I *think*) it doesn't handle line width, right?
<White_Flame>
right, it's an indenter, not a reflower
<NotThatRPG>
I'm honestly unsure how this is invoked in SLIME
<White_Flame>
Tab? that's all I got :)
<NotThatRPG>
There's slime-reindent-defun which is documented in the manual, but is actually in the contrib directory. (I know it's low-priority, and everyone's busy, but it would be nice if some of the contribs were de-contribbed and merged)
<NotThatRPG>
Anyway, it isn't a pretty-print dispatch table and ... searching for "pretty-print common lisp code" is unlikely to be very helpful because of the way keyword-searching works :-(
<NotThatRPG>
Maybe I should ask ChatGPT!
<yitzi>
NotThatRPG: I am working on a better dispatch table in Inravina.
<yitzi>
It does a lot more introspection of function lambda lists, etc.
<NotThatRPG>
Is there a particular dispatch table in Inravina that is specifically for formatting CL code
<NotThatRPG>
?
<yitzi>
The default one. The same is true for all pprint dispatch tables... its just that most implementations don't have very intelligent form printers. The dispatch table is usually keyed to the top level of the form, i.e. (CONS BLOCK)
<yitzi>
But, then the PPRINT-BLOCK, PPRINT-DEFPACKAGE, or whatever they dispatch to doesn't do much about controlling the printing of the second level forms.
<NotThatRPG>
yitzi: Neat. Looks like you are using logical blocks, too, so that Inravina will pretty-print forms in a way that is sensitive to line width (i.e., reflow).
<ixelp>
xp/xp-code.lisp at ae95564ae1ed784637fe2b706b756e6538911719 · yitzchak/xp · GitHub
<yitzi>
It just prints the lambda list with PRINT-FILL
<yitzi>
Whereas Inravina actually does a basic parsing of the lambda list decl and treats &AUX, etc specially. Basically the same idea for function calls. It tries to keep keys and values on the same line. Stuff like that.
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<NotThatRPG>
yitzi: That's great.
<NotThatRPG>
I wonder if one could make a pretty-print dispatch table that would accommodate the Eclector reader -- to reformat code for the benefit of an editor, it's not acceptable to simply throw comments on the floor.
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* NotThatRPG
is feeling some envy for the Python folks with their auto-formatting support in "black" and the IDEs
<jackdaniel>
you can even pprint instances into formatted cl code
<jackdaniel>
I'm using that to transpile xml to cl code
<jackdaniel>
so not dropping comments is vert much possible
<beach>
How are comments represented to pprint then?
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<beach>
NotThatRPG: The problem with your idea is that in the editor, the code is incorrect most of the time. That's why I am using a different approach in Second Climacs.
<NotThatRPG>
beach: I've been using paredit, so I typically find that the code is syntactically correct, if otherwise incorrect.
<beach>
NotThatRPG: But the idea of having some functionality that does more than just indenting code, and that would also break or merge lines is a good one.
<beach>
NotThatRPG: Well, the surface syntax may be correct, but at the S-expression syntax level, it is often not.
<NotThatRPG>
A filter like black is also entitled to simply error out and stop if the code is syntactically ill-formed.
<NotThatRPG>
But then one would have to have a more robust code walker or pretty-printer (at least robust to throwing errors instead of just quietly doing GIGO)
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<yitzi>
beach: Comments will have to be handled with an extension ... basically a generic function that will tell PPRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK to skip the input in the form printer
<yitzi>
I've have proof of concept that does this...I am just waiting to add it until I am more certain about the client dispatch interface.
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<beach>
yitzi: I am not following, sorry. If you want to use PPRINT to print code that contains comments, there would have to be some representation of the comments that PPRINT can handle, no?
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<yitzi>
Right now I am think thinking that it is done probably as you are doing in Climacs. Use Eclector to read a CST of some sort with the comments preserved. i.e. `(defun fu (x) #| wibble |# x)` becomes `(defun fu (x) #S(COMMENT :VALUE "wibble") x)` ...
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<beach>
I see.
<yitzi>
PPRINT-POP and PPRINT-EXIT-IF-LIST-EXHAUSTED call a function (PPRINT-SKIP-P client stream object) which avoids sending the object to form printer and instead calls WRITE.
<yitzi>
so the form printer PPRINT-DEFUN never sees the comment object in its PPRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK. Does that make sense?
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<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
But then you can't indent the comment properly.
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<beach>
An important part of the code for computing indentation in Second Climacs is to associate comments with the code being commented, and to indent those comments according to the indentation of the code.
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<yitzi>
The comment is printed in the same logical block ao idention would inherit from that. Plus the ident can start its own logical block.
<beach>
I think I see.
<yitzi>
I haven't explored it in detail, so I am sure that are aspects I haven't thought of.
<beach>
Sure.
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<elderK>
Hey guys, I was wondering how Sly compares with Slime and when I'd want to use which.
<elderK>
I've been studying up hard on Emacs over the past few days, starting to use it after many years of avoiding it :P It's pretty addictive, configuring it :P
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<Shinmera>
And I wonder if anyone but me is ever going to use it...
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<dlowe>
thanks for sharing it, though.
<cage>
you never can tell when will be useful to others
<Shinmera>
It is super niche and I don't foresee anyone else being dumb enough to make games in Lisp to the point where this would be useful in the future :)
<cage>
:))
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<dlowe>
It's a lot more likely with you paving the wilderness
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<NotThatRPG>
Question for sly users: I have tried to set up sly to connect to a remote server and it's ALMOST working, but slynk on the server is trying to load modules from pathnames that come from the client...
<elderK>
Shinmera: I have an oddball question for you. I want to ask it mostly because you know, I'm impressed with all the things you build :)
<elderK>
In my own life, I find it hard to allocate time to working on personal projects. Back when I was just studying, it was easy to find time. There was always a block somewhere I could fit hacking in, between assignments or classes or whatever.
<elderK>
These days, I have a job and a wife (yes, I got married :D) and there never seems to be enough time. I'm lucky if I can spend an hour a day learning or working on something. Often less because of interruptions.
<elderK>
How do you find the time?
<elderK>
Do you have to sacrifice sleep?
<Shinmera>
I do this full time now, so
<Shinmera>
And prior to that I was in uni and school.
<elderK>
Wow :) You get to work on CL stuff for a living? :D
<elderK>
That's AWESOME!
<Shinmera>
Anyone gets to work on CL for a living if they don't get paid anything
<Shinmera>
like me
<Shinmera>
That said, buy my game so I may get paid something at some point.
<elderK>
Sorry to ask such personal questions but I was genuinely curious.
<Shinmera>
I don't mind.
<Shinmera>
I write far more personal things publicly on my blog.
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<elderK>
How do you survive? Do those who use your libraries and stuff contribute to you somehow like via Patreon or something?
<elderK>
I'd be happy to buy your game to add some support :) It looks awesome.
<Shinmera>
I survive by living with my parents and getting lucky with savings and some public funding.
<elderK>
My wife and I love playing RPGs and stuff together :)
<Shinmera>
So far sales have not been good enough to support this without further public funding. If I can't get Kandria to take off even after the next two major updates I'm planning to see if I can set up a patreon to at least fund another fraction of everything.
<elderK>
Aye, I hear you. That was how it was for me too. My father was great: He let me kind of just grow for a long while. If it wasn't for that, I don't think I ever would've learned as much as I did.
<elderK>
What can I do to help? I'll suggest Kandria to some of my friends. Some of my workmates might enjoy it, too.
<Shinmera>
That would be great!
<elderK>
Cool :)
<Shinmera>
Otherwise I'm not sure there's much that can be done, really. Selling games in high enough quantities to fund things is really tough and requires constant marketing, pretty much.
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<elderK>
I love Kandria's art style!
<Shinmera>
Well, actually, once the next update is out (hopefully end of month / early next month) another way to help is to make levels with the integrated editor and share those with the community :)
<Shinmera>
Or already try to make mods for the game.
<Shinmera>
That might be more on-topic for this chatroom.
<elderK>
Aye :) Man, the amount of learning you would've had to do to build all of that is just incredible.
<elderK>
I've dabbled in game programming (in C++, though.) It was interesting just building space invaders with an ECS-style approach.
<elderK>
Something as complex as Kandria (and your game library, too.)
<elderK>
How did you go about designing your engine? Did you just start building Kandria and added what you needed? Or did you do a lot of research?
<aeth>
re sales, are you willing to share how accurate the sales estimates are? (Steam.DB aggregates 4, looks like Kandria only is on 3 of 4) https://steamdb.info/app/1261430/charts/
<aeth>
I understand if you aren't given how private/valuable accurate sales information is
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<Shinmera>
Trial started many years before.
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<Shinmera>
And Kandria started out as "I should build something bigger with it than just jam games".
<Shinmera>
Any public sales estimates are probably inflated due to the fact that they're almost always based on review count, which is far above average for Kandria.
<aeth>
thanks
<aeth>
I see your point. You seem to have marketed in communities more likely to leave reviews (e.g. HN)
<ixelp>
Check out the new release of Kandria a hand-crafted 2D action game | GamingOnLinux
<Shinmera>
Right. In any case, the sales stats are pretty bad, and I sell between 0 and 1 copies a day, which, as you may figure, is not even a salary for a single person, let alone a team.
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<aeth>
that's fewer sales than I would have expected from Gaming on Linux
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<aeth>
I suspect that Linux gamers tend to prefer systemic games (e.g. Factorio, Dwarf Fortress), though. Those are the sorts of games most likely to get ports, too.
<Shinmera>
:shrug: People just don't know about Kandria at all.
<Shinmera>
And I just don't have the energy for marketing.
<aeth>
platformers are a really tough market
<aeth>
the quality bar was set very high, too
<Shinmera>
Anyhoo, this is very off topic by this point.
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<elderK>
Hey guys, is #lispcafe the best place to ask questions about things like Emacs and Slime/Sly?
<aeth>
#lisp is for all Lisps
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<varjag>
i think emacs + slime/sly is on topic here
<varjag>
just not general emacs topics
<NotThatRPG>
contrapunctus: I don't *think* that's it -- SLYNK is on the lisp (in this case SBCL) side, not the emacs side, so it should be finding files relative to running on the server.
<NotThatRPG>
What it looked like was somehow information was bleeding over from the client emacs into the host CL. SLYNK-LOADER has two variables that seem relevant: *source-directory* and *load-path* and the latter seems to be loaded from the former.
<NotThatRPG>
s/seems to be/is initially/
<NotThatRPG>
When I look, the *source-directory* correctly has a server pathname (linux) and the *load-path* is full of entries that refer to files on my Mac laptop.
<NotThatRPG>
It's possible this is happening because I have the remote sly-mrepl open at the same time as a local one.
<NotThatRPG>
No, fresh emacs. Still getting a message that the slynk loader is trying to load files off my Mac onto the remote server.
<NotThatRPG>
Oh, no! Wait -- it is working (more) almost correctly now!
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<NotThatRPG>
It's contrib loading on remote that is busted. The sly contribs seem to be shoving *local* pathnames at the *remote* slynk.
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<NotThatRPG>
sly-contrib--required-slynk-modules is getting local pathnames instead of remote.
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<NotThatRPG>
define-sly-contrib is buggy.
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<NotThatRPG>
sly-setup is called *before* the connection to the remote server is made, causing the wrong pathnames to be saved.
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<elderK>
I was just wondering which is worth using and why: There's Slime and Sly, and Sly just seems to be an updated version of Slime. I was wondering which is the one to use these days.
<elderK>
It's like Helm vs. Ivy or Company vs. Corfu. Being a newcomer to Emacs, it's kind of hard to know which to choose as I have no attachment or existing knowledge.
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<varjag>
slime has a bit more history and perhaps still used a bit more broadly
<varjag>
so it's easier to get help on
<varjag>
but either would prolly work just fine for you
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<elderK>
Excellent. Thank you.
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<elderK>
I kind of lean towards using Slime just because it *is* more mature.
<elderK>
I don't really want to have to deal with hunting bugs and stuff.
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<Shinmera>
I keep meaning to check out sly but then never do because I'm lazy and hate dealing with setup.
<elderK>
I hear you. Setup is a bitch :P
<fitzsim>
I've found slime has become easier to set up since it was made available in NonGNU ELPA
<fitzsim>
at least you don't have to hunt for where to clone it from
<fitzsim>
mind you, I haven't done a "from emacs -Q" setup recently
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<edgar-rft>
I can sell you some setup if you love dealing with it
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