<sweatshirt>
i feel like im making some headway on understanding common lisp; just built a simple login system where it loops through a list of list to see if key info matches
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<ixelp>
Casio AI-1000 Pocket Lisp Computer from 1989 - YouTube
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<White_Flame>
copec: neat
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<sweatshirt>
<sweatshirt>
yo
<beach>
Hello sweatshirt. Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<sweatshirt>
i am new here
<sweatshirt>
and to common lisp!
<beach>
Great! Welcome!
<sweatshirt>
Thank you!
<beach>
sweatshirt: You might want to know about #clschool. This channels is not really for newbie questions, although they are tolerated to some extent.
<sweatshirt>
i see; thank you for letting me know -- what is this channel for?
<beach>
A variety of things. We discuss the standard, implementation techniques, applications, libraries.
<sweatshirt>
gotcha
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<edgar-rft>
sweatshirt: today it's quiet here but soemtimes there are in-depth technical discussions where newbie questions easily get lost, that's why #clschool was created where we always have time to explain things in detail
<sweatshirt>
i see, awesome; i just joined there! Thanks for the heads up!
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<kami_>
Good morning
<beach>
Hello kami_.
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<jcowan>
I have been trying to discover known use cases for dotted lists, pretty much without success except for the case of pattern-matching against lists of arbitrary length. Can anyone think of other applications?
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<Bike>
like, not including single conses?
<jackdaniel>
alists with car being a list?
<jackdaniel>
((op1 op2 op3) . handler)
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<jcowan>
Bike: yes
<jcowan>
that is, not including invidual conses considered as 2-element structures/records.
<jcowan>
an alist is a (normal) list of such conses, which can of course contain lists.
<_death>
well, I guess one use that comes to mind is that you can have the last atom be a unique object, say a gensym, so that you can later on substitute something else for it without worrying about "user-supplied" objects
<_death>
(you'd do that using SUBLIS)
<jcowan>
I don't understand, sorry
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<jcowan>
An application I do know about is implementing lazy lists by putting a thunk in the tail which, when invoked, provides a "next value" to be spliced into the list.
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<_death>
you have a tree structure serving as a kind of template (f (+ . x) (+ (* 2 . x) 1)) and can later (sublis '((x . (a b))) template)
<_death>
also destructuring patterns sometimes contain dotted lists
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<_death>
(but I now see you mentioned that)
<scymtym>
(defpackage … (:shadow . #1=(foo bar baz)) (:export fez . #1#))
<_death>
hmm, no dotted list there :)
<scymtym>
right. i was thinking of consing dot
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<_death>
an easy way to find out more use cases would be to scan existing code for such lists.. easy using eclector (and my formgrep hack that uses it)
<_death>
(that may not find out use cases that build such lists at runtime..)
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<jcowan>
One of the ANS changes was to allow keywords in function definitions not to be in the keyword package. Does anyone know the rationale for this?
<jcowan>
It seems obfuscatory.
<Bike>
didn't you ask this before?
<jcowan>
If so, I must have forgotten the answer.
<jcowan>
(or lack of answer, as the case may be)
<Bike>
hrm, well i see you asking other stuff about keywords but not this
<Bike>
it's occasionally useful to have private parameters. for example you can use them as initargs for objects so your own code can pass stuff to make-instance that external code should not
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<jcowan>
Fair enough. So you'd want to allow uninterned symbols, and perhaps they thought it was just simpler to allow any symbols whatsoever.
<Bike>
or just symbols in a package
<jcowan>
They aren't as private, though, since there are no private packages.
<Bike>
for a concrete example, the clos implementation in clasp has a clos::leaf-method-p initarg for methods. using a symbol from an internal package is an indicator to users not to screw with it, and also means that they can pick whatever keyword initargs they want for their own subclasses of standard-method without worrying about collisions
<jcowan>
Thanks
<jcowan>
That is very clear.
<Bike>
you are welcome
<jcowan>
Come to think of it, it can't actually be a gensym unless you wrap your defun in a call to eval: (eval `(defun foo (x y &keys ,private-keyword) <body>))
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<jcowan>
Which in turn would have to be wrapped in eval-when.
<jcowan>
So yes, an internal package is the Right Thing.
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<Bike>
you could use #. #= and ##, i guess, but that would be sort of terrible in its own way
<NotThatRPG>
Pretty much hate clisp. It hasn't had a release in more than 10 years. Right now I've simply given up on testing ASDF on it.
<NotThatRPG>
My preferred implementations (no particular order): SBCL, CCL, Allegro. I don't have a license, but LispWorks seems nice. ABCL if you need to deal with Java, but I don't. I don't need to run on embedded systems so the compile-to-C implementations aren't for me
<NotThatRPG>
sweatshirt: Do you mean commercial organizations that will host a CL-based website for you? I think you are probably limited to folks that will let you install arbitrary server code or that will let you use a Docker image
<jcowan>
Clisp development isn't actually stalled, though, stuff gets fixed in the repo, it's just that there isn't a formal release
<jcowan>
the latest change was a week ago
<NotThatRPG>
jcowan: Yes, but that means that what's out there is "compile it yourself" or "somebody just grabbed an arbitrary state of the git repo."
<NotThatRPG>
If clisp was brilliant, then that might be worth it, but given how good both SBCL and CCL are, why bother with the headache?
* jcowan
nods
<NotThatRPG>
Why should I test ASDF on it, when I have no idea what state of the code I should be testing against?
<jcowan>
Still, lots of things that have releases are "compile it yourself"
<NotThatRPG>
jcowan: Sure. But the combination of the build it yourself hassle and the no idea whether my version is anything like yours is the kiss of death from my PoV
<NotThatRPG>
Again, if it was the bee's knees as an implementation, then things would be different, but I can't see the argument for running it.
<yitzi>
I agree that it needs some love, but it is packaged in some Linux distributions.
<jcowan>
Oh yes, but that's the old 2.49 version.
<NotThatRPG>
yitzi: yes, but I wish it wasn't!
<yitzi>
I maintain an AUR pkg that pulls git if you are on Arch.
<jcowan>
I don't know why Haible isn't willing to just release every so often; perhaps it's something like "Well, I haven't done it in so long, it's too hard to restart"
<NotThatRPG>
From my (admittedly oddball) PoV, since i have no idea how to maintain ASDF for clisp, clisp is just an IOU that I have no way to pay.