samedi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
flip214 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
samedi has joined #commonlisp
flip214 has joined #commonlisp
karlosz has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
triffid has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pve has quit [Quit: leaving]
lancuelot has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
triffid has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
Oladon has joined #commonlisp
occ has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Client Quit]
cdegroot_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
pranavats has joined #commonlisp
karlosz has quit [Quit: karlosz]
cdegroot has joined #commonlisp
random-jellyfish has quit [Quit: Client closed]
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
waleee has joined #commonlisp
rayer has joined #commonlisp
azimut_ has joined #commonlisp
azimut has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
samedi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cdegroot has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
occ has joined #commonlisp
cdegroot has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
Oladon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Lord_of_Life has joined #commonlisp
occ has joined #commonlisp
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
masinter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
sweatshirt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
X-Scale has quit [Quit: Client closed]
kagev has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
waleee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
pawa2 has quit [Quit: leaving]
pillton has joined #commonlisp
marsia` has joined #commonlisp
marsia has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Alfr has quit [Quit: Leaving]
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
occ has joined #commonlisp
masinter has joined #commonlisp
Alfr has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
occ has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
occ has joined #commonlisp
marsia` has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
marsia has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
shka has joined #commonlisp
occ has joined #commonlisp
easye has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
easye` has joined #commonlisp
pranavats has left #commonlisp [Error from remote client]
azimut_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
frgo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Bocaneri has joined #commonlisp
Bocaneri is now known as Guest7624
Sauvin has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
igemnace has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
specbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
minion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
kenran has joined #commonlisp
minion has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
specbot has joined #commonlisp
prokhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
prokhor__ has joined #commonlisp
kenran has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
loke has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
masinter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
loke has joined #commonlisp
rgherdt has joined #commonlisp
Guest7624 is now known as SenFache
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
Cymew has joined #commonlisp
pve has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<lieven>
locally declared special variables are mostly used in heavy macrology and for layered languages. See also PROGV and the now defunct COMPILER-LET.
Guest53 has joined #commonlisp
<Guest53>
oh wow lots of people
Guest53 has quit [Client Quit]
pillton has quit [Quit: ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.2)]
LW has joined #commonlisp
pranavats has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
occ has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tasty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
MajorBiscuit has joined #commonlisp
tasty has joined #commonlisp
tasty has quit [Changing host]
tasty has joined #commonlisp
shka has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
* splittist
is being drawn down the PDF spec rabbit hole...
quoosp has joined #commonlisp
<flip214>
splittist: looking at cl-pdf?
<flip214>
asking because I have a few changes, and started pdf/a compatibility for it.
attila_lendvai has joined #commonlisp
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
occ has joined #commonlisp
<qhong>
how to test if a character is a token delimiter?
<qhong>
there's the SBCL specific sb-impl:token-delimiterp, is there anything semi-portable?
occ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<splittist>
flip214: yes. And I was looking at PDF/A, too. But mainly I "just" want to extract text. Which seems to require projecting characters into 2d space then grouping them into columns, paragraphs, lines and words... (I may be trying too hard)
<edgar-rft>
qhong: not exactly what you asked but GET-MACRO-CHARACTER returns as a second value a boolean indicating whether the character is "constituent" or not, if that helps
<beach>
qhong: What do you need this for?
<splittist>
qhong: from 2.1.4 / table 2.6, there isn't really a 'delimiter' syntax type
<White_Flame>
edgar-rft: yeah, I was going to mention that, but then #\Space is not a macro character and returns nil, even though it'll terminate a token
<jackdaniel>
it is up to the enclosing reader to interpret symbols as delimiters
<jackdaniel>
read-delimited-list will treat space as such thing, but you may define read-list-delimited-by-cookoo which will error if in-between constituents are not cookoos
<jackdaniel>
and by "symbols" I mean tokens
<qhong>
splittist: if I could get the syntax type as specified in CLHS, that would also be helpful
<qhong>
beach: I'm writing a read macro hack, which change the behavior of symbol-reading just a little bit
<beach>
qhong: Is this something you could use Eclector for?
<beach>
... or does it have to be the native reader?
<qhong>
beach: that sounds like the right thing to do
<qhong>
... if redefining CL:READ to use Eclector doesn't break stuff
<beach>
Oh, it probably does.
<beach>
I was wondering if it had to be CL:READ that you use.
<qhong>
Yes. I'm ragehacking!
triffid has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
triffid has joined #commonlisp
jdz has quit [Quit: I'm done]
jdz has joined #commonlisp
<flip214>
splittist: yeah, right.
OlCe has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
OlCe has joined #commonlisp
<flip214>
splittist: having a library with some heuristics for extraction would be nice to have!
<splittist>
flip214: that's a bunch of heuristics! And if you care about tables...
Krystof has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
rogersm has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
<flip214>
well, either a (debuggable) bunch of heuristics or a black-box "AI" ...
<splittist>
or both!
<jackdaniel>
a black box "ai" with a bunch of heuristics
rogersm has joined #commonlisp
<jackdaniel>
(defun correctp (answer) "perhaps")
<aeth>
the important thing is that the answer sounds correct, not that it is correct
<aeth>
it still eliminates dozens of industries
<splittist>
I'm hoping for a great winnowing: if that task can be accomplished by SuperTextPredictor, then it doesn't need to be done. (He says while NIH-ing a pdf text extractor...)
<jcowan>
lawn-mowing however will survive
dino_tutter has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
OlCe has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
OlCe has joined #commonlisp
dino_tutter has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
ttree has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
Lycurgus has joined #commonlisp
OlCe has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
marsia has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
mingus has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
rgherdt_ has joined #commonlisp
rgherdt has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Lycurgus has quit [Quit: Exeunt: personae.ai-integration.biz]
Brucio-61 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
scymtym has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
OlCe` has joined #commonlisp
<pjb>
jcowan: optimist! Teslabots will be able to mow lawns for you.
waleee has joined #commonlisp
OlCe` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jmdaemon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Brucio-61 has joined #commonlisp
Posterdati has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
scymtym has joined #commonlisp
Algernon69 has joined #commonlisp
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Posterdati has joined #commonlisp
OlCe has joined #commonlisp
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
aartaka has joined #commonlisp
easye has joined #commonlisp
easye has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
easye` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
easye has joined #commonlisp
jdz has quit [Quit: I'm done]
<easye>
Afternoon, Europe.
<jackdaniel>
soon we will be closed in small capsules to lend our neural networks in order to produce more robust prompts to feed into the machine
<easye>
Could use some advice on implementing CL:STEP for ABCL
<Alfr>
Helmholtz, '('(x) y) is actually read as (quote ((quote (x)) y)), it's very unlikely that what you want. Even feeding it to eval, will leave you with the list ((quote (x)) y).
<Helmholtz>
also, my sbcl doesn't have (ed)
<Helmholtz>
why?
<jackdaniel>
backtick is an universal name of the grave accent
<jackdaniel>
Helmholtz: you may "install" ed in sbcl, they have an extension for that
<Helmholtz>
thanks.
<Helmholtz>
I use rlwrap sbcl...Is there a more "modern" repl with syntax highlighting and stuff?
<jackdaniel>
implementations rarely come with the graphical interface (by graphical I mean also tui), so they'd need to either implement the editor like ed/sed, or nothing at all
<beach>
Helmholtz: Most people here probably use SLIME or SLY.
<beach>
... with Emacs.
<jackdaniel>
many people use SLIME which is a package for emacs, it is described in PCL
<minion>
Helmholtz: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<ixelp>
Practical Common Lisp
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<Helmholtz>
yeah I do use sly too...thought there could be a more featureful rlwrap alternative
Cymew has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<jackdaniel>
there is linedit for sbcl - I'm not sure whether it has highlighting but it implements history and autocompletion
<beach>
Helmholtz: Your question about quote is really fundamental. I suggest you join #clschool for similar questions. This channel is not really for newbie questions, though they are tolerated to some extent.
<Helmholtz>
When an error occurs, I go into debug mode. I have to type the number of ABORT. Is there a keybinding for that? Ctrl+G doesn't work. Ctrl+C seems to go one layer deeper in another debug mode
waleee has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
<Helmholtz>
beach, ok thanks
<beach>
q usually
* beach
's fingers know it, but not his brain.
<Helmholtz>
Have you tried chatGPT for CL? What do you think about it?
<jackdaniel>
Helmholtz: if you truly use SLY then you should have an integrated debugger (although not all will concede that it is a debugger!;), then pressing Q should work, other restarts may be picked with digits 1-9
<jackdaniel>
regarding chatpgpt for cl I guess that it works like for any other language - somewhat visually passable yet incorrect
<jackdaniel>
perhaps the next generation after being trained on more data (and violating more licenses) will do better
quoosp has joined #commonlisp
<pjb>
jackdaniel: I don't think it will improve significantly alone. They will need to combine it with a reasonning module.
<pjb>
But it is a great advance in terms of user interface IMO.
<jackdaniel>
let's agree to disagree on that
<jackdaniel>
I have little doubt that in not very distant feature coding capabilities of the model will be even more compelling if we ignore non-technical perspectives
<jackdaniel>
s/feature/future/
<jackdaniel>
but that's a funny braino, because you know - these models act on features :)
<pjb>
my point is that to code something that has already been coded it will be ok, but as soon as you will ask it to code something new, it will fail.
<_death>
neural networks are a function approximation method that's turing complete, so in theory it could stumble upon a "reasoning module"
<pjb>
_death: it needs a loop somewhere. I don't know if chatgpt already include loops in its ANN.
<jackdaniel>
usually when people parrot the term 'stochatical parrot' I'm tempted to parrot the term 'emergent behavior'
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
<jackdaniel>
stochastical*, time for a coffee
<Helmholtz>
pjb, jackdaniel I used it to tell me what was wrong with a small piece of lisp code. It detected my intent and tell me the explanation!
<Helmholtz>
Why don't they "mix" it with 80s symbolic AI (expert systems)?
<Helmholtz>
Doesn't common lisp have an edge here? Speaking of CL, I saw an implementation of chatGPT in like 100 lines of python code. Apparently it's algorithm could be implemented easily and the data gathering is the problem. Can it be done elegantly in CL too?
<White_Flame>
100 lines of code with megabytes of imported dependencies
<jackdaniel>
it is as if you were asking: "why don't they mix hammers with drills for hard surfaces?" (ignoring the fact that hammer drills are a thing)
<White_Flame>
eg the actual machine learning library dependencies
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<jackdaniel>
also authors published how this thing works, the hard part is to have enough computing power to train these (and enough data)
<_death>
in an alternative universe, Newton came up with a 1B weights NN model instead of those 3 laws of motion.. Einstein subscribed to the API and embedded his own layers
<jackdaniel>
and then all got sued because Leibnitz patented some minor detail
<jackdaniel>
and of the cautionary tale - never live in XXI ;)
<_death>
big physics
<_death>
all those people updating weights with chalks :)
<jackdaniel>
chalkGPT
<Helmholtz>
jackdaniel, like, people have come to this idea right?
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand, but I have a strong suspicion that we are way in the offtopic area
<Helmholtz>
ok what about the CL equivalent though
<Helmholtz>
Can't these ML deps be also used from CL?
<ixelp>
GitHub - chunsj/TH: Deep Learning Library for Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
there are not many people working on ml in common lisp. Vsevolod Dyomkin is one of them (he created cl-nlp)
<jackdaniel>
that said sure, using ffi to use other libraries is very much possible, nothing intrinsicly wrong with cl making it less feasible than python (or R)
attila_lendvai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<jackdaniel>
it is cute how convincingly it explains something what is an incorrect answer
<jackdaniel>
even an absurd answer if you read into it
jonatack has joined #commonlisp
quoosp has joined #commonlisp
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<Bike>
chatgpt aced debate club in school
kenran has joined #commonlisp
Brucio-61 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
scymtym has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
rogersm has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
Inline has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<Helmholtz>
I have a hunch that they have fed Common Lisp books into it
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
White_Flame has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<aeth>
I guess college essays are now obsolete
<aeth>
Because ChatGPT basically writes exactly how you'd write a college essay. Word count instead of content. Doesn't really train you for anything in the real world outside of science fiction magazines that pay by word, though.
White_Flame has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
It'd be funny if they trained it on an anti-plagiarism database, which would probably include a bunch of my own essays, too, since they did the whole turn it in online and run it through plagiarism checks back in the day, too, even before Covid.
gnoo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Lycurgus has joined #commonlisp
lagash_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<jcowan>
I think ChatGPT output is still detectable, at least most of the time, by an alert and skeptical reader.
Brucio-61 has joined #commonlisp
<Lycurgus>
ofc
<Lycurgus>
they cant carry discourse
cage has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.2]
<Lycurgus>
just plausible responses, essentially souped up eliza
* jcowan
nods
<jcowan>
So I think people are being overpessimistic about how destructive they will be.
<Lycurgus>
the fact they're not one liners fools some igess
<Bike>
ugh, don't remind me of the clarkesworld thing, aeth. disgusting.
_cymew_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<Bike>
anyhow, i hope an newbies coming here realize that chatgpt is not an oracle. but maybe that's too much to hope for
<jcowan>
Note that it wasn't that Clarkesworld couldn't tell the bogus submissions, it's that they didn't have the manpower to dispose of them expeditiously
jonatack has joined #commonlisp
<jcowan>
It might be a useful tool for getting rid of predatory journals, however: send them tens of thousands of submissions until they collapse.
<Bike>
that would be something.
<aeth>
Bike: right, Oracle would charge way more than ChatGPT does.
attila_lendvai_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<aeth>
I think ChatGPT is particularly bad on things like Common Lisp that are more obscure. It might be decent with Python and JavaScript. More data, less naming confusion ("Lisp" vs "Common Lisp"). And Lisps on the Internet have always had a fake-expert problem who are more into Lispism than writing Lisp code.
<aeth>
But Common Lisp isn't a totally obscure language so it has enough to hallucinate in plausible details.
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
attila_lendvai_ has joined #commonlisp
<jcowan>
When Canter and Siegel were doing their thing back in 1994 on Usenet, I tried to arrange for lots of people to forward their green-card spams back to them so that their email provider would kick them off, but I couldn't figure out how to notify enough people without myself spamming.
jmiven has quit [Quit: reboot]
lagash_ has joined #commonlisp
<bjorkintosh>
<aeth> I guess college essays are now obsolete not necessarily. there's the professor who insists his students use chatgpt and then correct chatgpt's output.
<bjorkintosh>
that is something chatgpt can't do terribly easily.
dcb has joined #commonlisp
<bjorkintosh>
then again, this is only chatgpt3. what we have to worry about is the nth one which renders the written human word of all sorts obsolete.
<jcowan>
Perhaps people will move away from essays and back to viva voce examinations.
<bjorkintosh>
sure. over zoom.
<jcowan>
It's R.U.R.-level work to fake those
<aeth>
or just timed, handwritten essays
<bjorkintosh>
at which point your chatgpt 12 avatar will take over.
<jcowan>
I wouldn't subject anyone to my handwriting
<jcowan>
bjorkintosh: Not if you have to attend in person, it isn't.
<bjorkintosh>
it'll be even funnier if the examiner's also using a chatpgpt 12 avatar. and then it'll be chatgpt eating its own tail.
<jcowan>
s/isn't/won't
<bjorkintosh>
well damn.
kenran has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Lycurgus has quit [Quit: Exeunt: personae.ai-integration.biz]
<aeth>
the problem with predicting this sort of thing (AI progress) is that it relies on leaps of technology (both hardware and software) that's more discrete steps of repeatedly hitting into a wall and then finding a way around the wall. And it could take 3 or 20 years. Also see self-driving cars getting almost good enough, but not good enough.
lxi has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
But... if you don't want to handwrite essays and you're OK with doing it on a computer, perhaps you can live type it using a video game anticheat
<aeth>
I'm sure video game anticheat companies have proposed this already
<bjorkintosh>
aeth, give it time. the world will soon be made safe for self-driving cars.
<aeth>
bjorkintosh: you mean... rails?
<jcowan>
Sometimes we move the wall, too. The death rate from auto accidents in the U.S. is 50,000 people per year, which is a small war.
<aeth>
(the rails may or may not be visible to the non-virtual world)
<bjorkintosh>
aeth, hahaha. not in this here united states.
<jackdaniel>
if you can generate essays with one click then perhaps it won't be that much crucial skill in the future
<jackdaniel>
like hand writing isn't
<aeth>
bjorkintosh: no, no, see, these are AR rails... the rails themselves are in the METAVERSE
<bjorkintosh>
ah. we'll need more satellites.
<jcowan>
Actually I just saw a video about bus-like objects that follow a course painted on the roadbed as a cheap form of mass transit
<jcowan>
they are catching on in China, and New York State is looking at them too.
<aeth>
you may need to paint some markings as a transitional stage in the augmented reality "rails"
<jackdaniel>
but this gets way too offtopic, so I gently nudge people to #lispcafe. that said I'm going to sleep, someone else enforce it.
<jackdaniel>
good night
<aeth>
#lispcafe is also talking about AI chatbots
<pjb>
If you want to have fun with chatgpt, ask it a list, and then to add urls. Some urls will be pertinent, some will be to unrelated subjects, and some will be entirely invented.
lxi has joined #commonlisp
pjb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rgherdt__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
shka has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
attila_lendvai_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
rtoy has quit [Quit: rtoy]
pjb has joined #commonlisp
atgreen has joined #commonlisp
son0p has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
gxt__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
gxt__ has joined #commonlisp
morganw has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
quoosp has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
artemon has joined #commonlisp
pjb has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]