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<mfiano>
Hmm, so is it Python or Julia that is now a Lisp, or are we sneaking in <programming> into the ELS schedule now? I understand Julia borrows heavily from Common Lisp, and its parser was initially written in a small dialect of Lisp, but this is a little out there I think.
<beach>
mfiano: Apparently, the referees thought it was on topic.
<mfiano>
Well, at least it isn't javascript again.
<mfiano>
I have some respect for Julia, probably moreso than other non-Lisps, but a Lisp it is not.
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<mfiano>
The problem is there is no generally agreed upon definition of Lisp, I suppose. So, pretty much anything is. Sigh. Oh well, looks like a fun lineup in any case.
<mfiano>
Can anyone map an IRC nick to Michael Wessel if one exists? I like to get an idea of who is working on things; they seem to be the only other person presenting a CL topic.
<beach>
Er, what?
<beach>
Other than what other people?
<mfiano>
Other than you. Michael Wessel, presenting "An Ontology-Based Dialogue Managment Framework for Virtual Personal Assistants in Common Lisp". I'm not sure if I have seen them here before.
<beach>
heisig's work is also Common Lisp.
<beach>
The the April compiler is written in Common Lisp.
<mfiano>
Oh sigh. I forgot about them. I was looking at day 2.
<mfiano>
But I know those authors.
<beach>
I would be surprised if Didier's ETAP were written in anything other than Common Lisp.
<mfiano>
I suppose, yeah.
<beach>
And Stefan Monnier usually talks about Emacs Lisp.
<mfiano>
I am not interested in that. Editing my configuration every year or so is enough of a departure from CL.
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<mfiano>
Ah, their (Michael Wessel) work is referenced in Wikipedia's CLIM article 3 times.
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<mfiano>
And it looks like the've been using Lisp for about 25 years, mostly LispWorks. Exciting.
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<_death>
he presented last year (Tangram solver).. also worked on a commercial CL offering that's now open source (Racer)
<mfiano>
I see. I must just not remember his name then.
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<lisp123>
Will this conference be recorded / viewable on youtube or equivalent?
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<mfiano>
Last year it was said that they'd try, but I haven't heard any confirmation of that yet. Maybe Shinmera knows more.
<Shinmera>
The stream/etc is handled by <Programming> so I do not know.
<mfiano>
Oh fun.
<lisp123>
I see
<lisp123>
Kinda sucks if the rest of the world cant watch :(
<Shinmera>
Virtual attendance also costs 50.- this time, and I don't know how they handle access or anything.
<lisp123>
Oh cool - i'll register for that
<mfiano>
I don't think I want to participate virtually, then. Not without more information anyway. Seems kind of a steep price for virtual, and I don't even know what it'll be like.
<Shinmera>
I'll just say that I'm very unhappy that virtual attendance isn't free. Many other conferences have a free stream, since the main point of the conference to begin with isn't the talks.
<Shinmera>
But I'm not on the organising team this year so
<mfiano>
Yeah, this is a real disappointment.
<lisp123>
There seems to be some good talks with <programming>, will have a look before registering
<lisp123>
50 EUR is steep though
<lisp123>
esp. if its not directly supporting Lisp Events
<Shinmera>
50 is what in-person attendance used to cost for students at ELS. OH WELL.
<lisp123>
is an agenda with times of each speech out? sorry if I'm bugging with questions
<lisp123>
found it
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<gin>
50 EUR is reasonable IMHO. organizing conferences cost money. conferences of other programming languages are much costlier in my experience.
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<gin>
cppcon costs between $150 to $300. that is 3-6 times costlier than ELS. pycon costs $400. 8 times costlier. rubycon also costs around $300-$500. so I have to say that 50 EUR (55 USD) is very reasonable.
<beach>
Except that we decided from the start that ELS was going to be affordable, in particular for students. As I recall, 50€ was the on-site student rate that was decided on, and kept that way for a long time. Ordinary attendance was 120€ last year.
<_death>
looks like "cons" may be expensive in the real world as well
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<gin>
I can understand that students may find 50 EUR to be steep but to be honest I have not seen any other international conference that is priced at anything less than 100 USD for student tickets.
<gin>
I am guessing it just costs substantial money to organize a conference.
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<gin>
2
<beach>
There is also the publicity aspect. The other conferences you mentioned are more popular, so there are more people willing to pay a higher price. We wanted the price for students to be low enough (subsidized in fact) that they would consider going just to check it out.
<beach>
I think ELS has been doing well. There are corporate and academic sponsors too.
<beach>
But I think the problems have to do with co-locating with <programming>.
<gin>
yes, I agree. as someone who discovered Lisp very late in life, I too would appreciate if the conf can be made affordable for students.
<gin>
I never ever heard about Lisp in student life which I think is very sad.
<beach>
I mean, for the 50€ we charged for students from day 1 (if I remember correctly) there were 2 lunches and a banquet dinner included, so it was worth it just for the food.
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<gin>
beach: do you belong to the ELS organizing team?
<beach>
I was the first local organizer in Bordeaux 2008, but I am no longer part of it.
<_death>
median monthly salary in a place like, say, egypt is around 500 EUR.. take away taxes and basic expenses.. can working person from egypt "virtually attend" ELS?
<_death>
they could last year..
<beach>
We got to use the conference room for free, we got the city to pay free transportation on the tram and bus system. We got a subsidy from the university and also from the region. We got a a free cocktail party by the mayor's office.
<beach>
So the actual cost of organizing the conference was very small. Just the lunches and the banquet dinner.
<gin>
wow! very nice planning and organization.
<beach>
I forget whether the Lisp vendors subsidized the first one, but they have done so pretty regularly.
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<beach>
Oh, they did according to the website.
<beach>
LispWorks, Franz.
<gin>
checking out the ELS website.
<gin>
beach: I see you are an invited speaker! and you will speak about a topic that I am very interested in! :) creating CL implementations. very nice. looking forward to it.
<beach>
Great!
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<gin>
i see only 4 company logos at the top: Epita, Franz, SISCOG, ACM. What are these logos for? Are they sponsors?
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<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
Well, maybe not ACM.
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<beach>
OK, so I registered 2 people, but how would they know who we are if we are not giving our names?
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<beach>
Like, how are they supposed to print our name tags?
<beach>
I guess nobody thought of that.
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<beach>
Shinmera: It seems idurand is not listed as member of the program committee on the web site.
<beach>
Maybe there are others missing, I didn't check everyone against the email Didier sent out.
<Shinmera>
I'm not the website admin. You'll have to contac t Jim or Didier
<beach>
Ah, sorry, my bad. Will do.
<beach>
Done.
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<beach>
I need to ask Didier about the reason(s) for co-locating with <programming>. I think we have had enough volunteers to organize it, so it can't be that.
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<jackdaniel>
mfiano: there was common lisp -only conference I think - the fact that only ELS happens may be interpreted as a hint that people are interested in other programming languages too
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<rotateq>
I saw the program for ELS yesterday, very exiting :)
<beach>
Are you referring to ECLM? It was not an academic conference. It was by invitation only, the speakers I mean.
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<jackdaniel>
I didn't refer to anything specific because I didn't remember the name nor I have attended it
<jackdaniel>
that's why there was "I think" at the end of the first part of the sentence
<jackdaniel>
I'm also not sure what was the scope of ILS
<beach>
Do you mean ILC? It was more general than just Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
yes, ILC
<beach>
ECLM was very good, but like I said, did not have peer-reviewed papers. Arthur and Edi organized it and invited people they thought had interesting ideas to present.
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<rotateq>
Ah Edi. :)
<beach>
ECLM was canceled, I believe as a result of Edi getting a job that required more of his time.
<beach>
I was invited to talk about CLIM and McCLIM the first year it was canceled. :)
<rotateq>
Yes maybe when he got to be a professor in Hamburg. His newer six part series about quantum computing was nice.
<beach>
Yes, I think ECLM stopped when he got that job.
<jackdaniel>
either way I'm glad that ELS is rather inclusive for interesting topics, even when the language is not a descendant of LISP or Scheme
<_death>
may be better to judge a talk after it's made
<beach>
I still remember the ECLM that preceded the first ELS in 2008. I was there handing out information about ELS, and Kenny Tilton was there, perhaps that's the ECLM when he presented his stuff (forget the name). And he proclaimed loud and clear so that everyone could here it that he would NEVER attend ELS, because ECLM is the only REAL Lisp meeting.
<beach>
I guess that's why he hasn't been to any ELS yet.
<Shinmera>
Wew
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<jackdaniel>
and I guess that the joke is on him, because he mostly works with clojure and javascript now ,)
<beach>
Ah, yes, you were there too that time I think.
<beach>
I remember you were given a standing ovation.
<Xach>
Not that time, no. I think my first ECLM was amsterdam
<Xach>
2011
<beach>
Ah, OK. Memory...
<Xach>
Lovely venue in a former church. A great time and lots of good CL stories. That is the year sharplispers was started in a chip shop after midnight.
<beach>
Interesting.
<beach>
So 2011 was when you presented Quicklisp?
<Xach>
No...it was a one-year retrospective on Quicklisp. I first presented (briefly) on Quicklisp at ILC 2010 in Nevada. People were interested but it was not clear it would be much better than anything that came before.
* edgar-rft
didn't know that there was a church before alonzo
<Xach>
And I won't say it's *much* better, but it has some sticky aspects that have helped it persist for better or worse.
<beach>
Xach: OK, I just meant that that was the ECLM at which you presented Quicklisp. Not that it was the first presentation of Quicklisp.
<Xach>
I see. Yes, that was the time.
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<Xach>
My first Lisp conference was the ILC at MIT in 2009, which had hundreds of people and had many well-known Lispers from the past decades present and presenting. I thought every conference would be like that. It turns out many of them simply lived near Boston anyway and it was easy and fun for them to attend.
<beach>
Heh.
<Xach>
I gave a lightning talk about making cat meme pictures with common lisp and Guy Steele was the timekeeper. What a time!
<Xach>
"i made u a stack frame" "but i ated it", said the scheme kitten
<beach>
Xach: Will you go to Porto?
<Xach>
beach: No, I won't.
<rotateq>
hui that sounds amazing :)
<beach>
Xach: Too bad! :(
<Xach>
I dearly miss my Lisp friends but I am averse to travel in general and international travel. I hope things get better soon.
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<beach>
I fully understand. We have a short direct flight, so it will be tolerable I hope.
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<rotateq>
beach: You mean you and your favorite coauthor? :)
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<beach>
My favorite coauthor will be there too, but I was referring to my (admittedly small) family. :)
<beach>
She will sign your copy of Lisp in Small Pieces if you bring it. :)
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<rotateq>
That would have been my second guess of course. ^^
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<beach>
Of course. My favorite coauthor also has a short direct flight, but on a different airline.
<rotateq>
Oh would be great, but I can't be there in persona, maybe from in two years on, depends where I'll land in terms of working place and if I can have edutional holidays for that.
<beach>
I see.
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<etimmons>
I've got some code that I'd like to conditionally include in a function subject to values of the various optimization declarations. Is there a go-to system that provides this capability? Or do I have to roll my own?
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<Bike>
probably you'd have a macro that uses one of the several cltl2 environment access portability libraries
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<etimmons>
Yeah, that's what I used to make sure the idea was sound for my use case.
<etimmons>
Just trying to decide if I should write a nice macro with all the sugar I want, or if there's an existing one I can adopt.
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<Guest74>
welp, that virtual attendance fee is really disappointing.
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<jackdaniel>
Guest74: do you plan to make a demo in a near future (i.e a video)? you ponder the topic of a gui toolkit for some time so I'm curious.
<Guest74>
sure, whenever all the underlying stuff is done. There's just so much underlying stuff!
<Guest74>
so much tangental stuff. I just wrote a simple wrapper around bluetoothctl so I can work with my controller so I could test the joystick stuff in evdev.
<jackdaniel>
I see
<Guest74>
I guess it would be easier if I just used clx instead of trying to write something that works without x. After all, clx is deficient for my purposes.
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<NotThatRPG>
@etimmons: I believe that there is a library that aims to give portable access (i.e., just smooth out the differences in different implementations) to the optimization parameters.
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<etimmons>
NotThatRPG: Yeah, something like trivial-cltl2. I'm looking for any existing sugar macro. Like (when-optimize (>= debug speed) ...)
<etimmons>
Not too hard to write. But don't want to throw another library out there if something already exists :)
<NotThatRPG>
I'm sure I remember seeing this, but I can't find it RN.
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<karlosz>
but both sbcl and ccl seem to die in %GTK-MAIN
<karlosz>
specifically i get a memory fault at #x10
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<karlosz>
also, i have no problems running gtk from the python bindings, so mystified
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<blacked>
Guys Which libary in cl is talk to networkmanager via dbus directly
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<hashfuncadb>
in a CL program, what is your opinion on when to opt for library bindings vs opting to just use a shell commmand?
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<stylewarning>
hashfuncadb: whichever gets the job done easier
<stylewarning>
i never trust shell commands to work, be portable, or be robust
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<hashfuncadb>
stylewarning: solid. i think i'll just stick with shell commands for prototyping. then when the product is getting hardened, i'll switch over to using library bindings and whatnot
<stylewarning>
yeah that's what i'd do
<stylewarning>
(unless a known library already works super well and is a no brainer)
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