lanefu changed the topic of #armbian-rockchip to: Armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | Rockchip SoC | www.armbian.com | This channel is relayed to the equivalent Discord channel | this channel is logged
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> From balcony solar power plants to homeowners' rooftop power plants, everything receives subsidies
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> A short search and you find real computers under 250€ with real software support
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> With the O6 I look in vain for the option to expand my RAM myself, which is a shame and clever of the manufacturer
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> You got 8GB version and would like to have 16GB , you need to buy a entire new board WP
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> The world first ARM open source mainboard that is not able to configure your RAM yourself
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Designing a motherboard in such a way that you don't offer the user the opportunity to upgrade the memory is cheeky , don't call it mainboard then
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> The way the design is presented on the web is poorly designed, a clown fiesta party on the end user's wallet
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> World first ARM open source motherboard that doesn't give you the opportunity to configure RAM yourself, no thanks until there is an option for it, completely uninteresting especially given the high price
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Open source , yes , open configuration , haha no buy new
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <lanefu> Edge kernel 6.13 has a patch that amazingfate already added to Armbian
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Finding Ryzen upgrade kits with 32 GB RAM ,mainboard and CPU under 250€ seems no problem as well
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Your Ram break , you change it , your CPU break , you change it ,no need to buy entire board new ,that'S what a mainboard should be like who is not just called so for marketing reasons
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gambl0r> Tell em
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> I just refuse to do the BSP Flat Earth dance and point out things I personally don't like at this product
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> I'm in all support of your point but you do know that LPDDR and DDR are not the same right? There’s technical reasons why some stuff is the way it is
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Most Laptops use LPDDR SO DIM
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> On my N100 I can change the RAM easy as well , not on the RADXA n100 , same level of bad design
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Oversized ATX SBC , yes , a mainboard like marketing already claim , nope not like this
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> With all this washing powder naming maybe they have ultra max version as something where the user can choose and don't need to buy new
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> In order for the whole thing to save electricity, you should use it without an external GPU and then use internal memory that shares RAM with the GPU. How many do you think then, as with the N100, realize that they would rather have 16GB instead of 8GB
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> The moment you use a external GPU it is even not energy efficient anymore
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Not finding a mini PC who is in the same price range, consume almost same power with a great GPU and offer you at least the option to change RAM like it should be is very hard
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> And hey no gray hair when using this GPU
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> @monkablyat besides not liking bsp in general do you think this change in the readme makes it better? https://github.com/HeyMeco/vulkan-wsi-layer
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <q4a> `-DWSIALLOC_MEMORY_HEAP_NAME=cma` looks strange. May be this one is better?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <q4a> `-DWSIALLOC_MEMORY_HEAP_NAME=system-uncached`
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <q4a> Because of this commit:
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> need to test
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Yeah, I'm not sure myself. Also, the CMA heap name may differ, e.g. when Armbian added the command-line parameter "cma=256M" to the boot args, `cma` got renamed to `reserved`. In that sense, `system-uncached` will be more stable (but require the latest kernel), and that's what the blobs themselves seem to be using in their internal wsialloc. It does seem to work well with `system <clipped message>
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> -uncached` though, so I'm inclined to make that the default.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> I'm having the x11 software rendering bug again with new built images. This is annoying
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> That's by far better, thank you, this has less to do with BSP and more to do with the fact that it seems they can actually only do marketing but fail in simple basic board design
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> While how the present it is already same clown fiesta as rk3588 , nothing learned
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> While how they present it is already same clown fiesta as rk3588 , nothing learned
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Always having to buy new ones and not being able to upgrade at least memory is also an absolute catastrophe from an ecological point of view
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Design in such a way that is good for them not for the end user , sad and brain AFK
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> In order to have something first accepting badly design , other vendor build better and the washing powder naming shit will start all over until you got the ultra max version
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> If a restaurant has like a hundred dishes on the menu, then run and eat somewhere else
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> ive always said that community is part of the problem too
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> i know many people who buy these boards because they have good Armbian support or whatever
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> but what they dont realize is that this should ve done by manufacturer long ago
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> Armbian wouldnt exist if ARM world wasnt so garbage
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> why does ARM themselves not open source their driver and get it mainlined?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> this is some next level brain damage
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> yes very true
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> you help Linux by working on features that benefits everyone...not support for random crappy SBC
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> which only benefits the SBC vendor
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> If your software had at least some quality, but unfortunately it's just like mass production without thinking, it's very bad and all devices end up in Armbian more sooner than later, even if they claim to develop their own OS
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> look two messages above
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> look two messages above the reply
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> If their software had at least some quality, but unfortunately it's just like mass production without thinking, it's very bad and all devices end up in Armbian more sooner than later, even if they claim to develop their own OS
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Software quality and board design mix because only programmed bots would claim that Radxa software has some kind of quality. It took them forever to fix the crappy Android Rockchip SDK and it's still buggy as fuck
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> i think its more about their IP non-sense rather than security through obscurity
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> security issues are found anyway by determined people
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> yup
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> they take the rockchip SDK, make it 10x worse with shit patches and ship it like that
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> 'heres our official distro'
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> but anyway nobody really cares about this stuff
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> see when rk3688 got announced, people were all over it
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> You're right, let's sit back, make popcorn and watch the clown party who is based on one thing , make it look cool in mrketing while the design is so bad it hurt
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> You're right, let's sit back, make popcorn and watch the clown party who is based on one thing , make it look cool in marketing while the design is so bad it hurt
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> The Android SDK serve as a good example , indeed , one guy fixed lot of their bug's and upload the image password protected , they never did anything against it, keep spam thread alive in open source community asking for password
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Because the marketing was beautifully designed and the board is not , people already waiting to fix once again their bugs for them for a free sample , more money for next marketing campaign
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> There's a lot to unpack...
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> One thing is, the workflows are: ARM ships code to Rockchip, Rockchip ships some SDK to vendors, vendors make OS images. E.g. Radxa does have its own (open-source) tools to create those, some of which are based on Mali driver.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Now, neither ARM, nor Rockchip don't "release" the blobs we are using, as such. If the driver wasn't customized by Rockchip, that would be possible, like they did with S922X — there are all prebuilt artifacts and instructions... Mind you, prebuilt WSI layer they shipped there didn't match the source they published (and, apparently, they forbid Rockchip to publish it as well), b <clipped message>
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> ut at least it was available.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> So, in that sense, our hacking around is not expected, nor intended. If we waited a bit more, it would all be released eventually (probably still will), and in the meantime we can see how things are actively evolving. E.g., back in the day I did make a write-up on how to get Vulkan working with g6 blob, but since then every single thing in that process has changed: new allocator, <clipped message>
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> heap names, whether you need one blob or two, kernel required, which hacks you actually need — and these things were changing quickly and rapidly, ultimately leading to fewer things to keep in mind (all of that is also one of the reasons I don't have a good instruction written down anywhere). And it's still WIP stuff, so whoever ventures to build on that is on their own anyway <clipped message>
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> , I only do it because I'm curious and impatient, but you don't have to be like me.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> I get that, you dudes have a better understanding of these things than I do, which is why I wished you would put your knowledge into panvk issues rather than trying this blob
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> thats wishful thinking to say that they will be released eventually
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> TBH, I don't really have that understanding, the fact that I've made that WSI thing work is more luck than skill (as proven by my non-working attempt to do something similar with X11). 🙂
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> And the reason we play with that instead of PanVK, is that blobs provide Vulkan 1.3, whereas PanVK is not even at 1.1 yet, though they do want to achieve 1.3 this year... Also, in GLES blobs are faster by 2-3x easily.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> should i remind you how old this soc is already?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> when will it be released? when we have flying cars?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> i think a year after soc release should be the maximum acceptable for good mainline support
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> It is painfully slow, I agree. And yes, I agree that it should be done before releasing consumer products based on the chip, not after.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> lets forget that x86 gets this on day one
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> i give them 1 year
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> they still cant manage
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Welp, S922X got a Vulkan driver 4 years after release. RK3588 is 3 years old, so I guess no rush. Sucks indeed.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> But, they do help with Mesa work, so there's a chance things will improve.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> this is one thing that bothers me with these sbcs
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> why claim vulkan support when even the official images dont have it?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> just say "you re buying a nice Arm cpu... to use other peripherals wait between 4 years and eternity"
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> It was available in Android though. But yeah, I agree that marketing there (or execution, for that matter) is not done right at all.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> yes android has it
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> but i really do wonder who buys this sort of boards for android
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> there isnt a single serious rk3588 based android device in the wild
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> in consumer market at least
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Well... There's https://www.h96tvbox.com/product/h96max-v58/ and GameForce ACE (not anymore though).
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> oh yeah forgot about tv boxes
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> but in that case...lol
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> usually these things lack Widevine certification altogether
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <runaway97> they re bad at being tv boxes as well
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Khadas build a pretty clean Android for their devices
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Most other vendors seems to use generic Rockchip SDK , release a very bad image and with lot of luck they might change a few things at kernel config to support more Wifi/Bt modules but that's basically it
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Selling a TV box while not even able to have a clean Android at all
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Rockchip Linux SDK basically just change the rootfs , calling a SDK is already a huge joke
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Rockchip Linux SDK basically just change the rootfs , calling it a SDK is already a huge joke
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Only designed for marketing so that even Stevie Wonder makes a song about it , I just call - to say - your board design is garbage 🎵 🎶
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> I stand corrected: PanVK is 1.1 as of 20 hours ago (damn things move fast).
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> After all these years it would be nice to be able to use Linux, which is known to be a kernel, on this device as it is offered but is not the case with BSP, so panvk is our only hope
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> Need to share what crazy thing I've got running smoothly with libmali lol
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> The world and item menu are all perfect. Only the settings menu's are flickering but you can like still control it
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> BTW, try running under Weston, maybe the flickering will be gone.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> I would need a little guideance to run weston in ubuntu? Can you tell me what to do?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> I mean, on Armbian Noble I simply `sudo apt install weston`, and it works.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> so logout and click weston ?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Basically, yes.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> It only has terminal out of the box (which is not a problem as such), and to exit it you basically kill the process... But, being a reference implementation, it supports explicit sync, which is nice.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> I got qt6-wayland running for the launcher and the game started
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> without flickering
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> damn
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> most power efficient minecraft gaming setup lol
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> Thanks @gin_kage
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> How do I get back lol, the login screen doesn't have the gear bc weston isnt logged out
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Open terminal, `killall weston` or something. 🙂
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> pkill myusername worked
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> This is going to be a fun write up
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> One day we'll have updated packages (GNOME 46.1 supports explicit sync), and won't need Weston anymore. One can but dream.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> but vulkan-wsi-layer definitely is the biggest annoyance to do manually with the deps rn, I think you have a script to do it all while building the image right?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> I just keep the prebuilt files, and the script both installs the mali .deb and copies the files. BTW, I use `/etc/vulkan/implicit_layer.d/` as destination.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> We definitely should have a mesa/vpu extension alternative with libmali
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> I wonder when arm > rockchip > public happens for the libmali vulkan 1.4 driver
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Good question, actually. They already have certified it, too.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> How to keep up support for closed source blob , the idea is not bad the issue is more the blob code it self
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> that's why I pointed it out
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> In a year, judging by the speed they do stuff now. Then again, what do you need 1.4 for?
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> Need? Nothing as of right now. Would it be nice to have what already exists? For sure
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> Yeah, I mean, is there any software out there that requires it? 🙂
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> As in, how will you know whether it does actually support it or not? 🙂
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <mecoblock> Emu/Proton dev's will know how to make the most of it I bet.
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Having the blob at least usable in your builds is actually what you should expect from BSP kernel board manufacturers where marketing is not the only priority
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Ginkage save your clown party asses
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <gin_kage> That was my point actually: this blob has not been *released* as such, it's just that we're curious and impatient (and we do like our clown party).
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> There is nothing to complain about when it comes to blob science as long as it is easy to re-produce for weekend user who are not hardcore nerds , and a write up will help a lot I guess
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Once again ass saved by community even when it comes to a closed source blob and you should expect those vendors to build at least their poorly software with the blob
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Very talanted people got a burn out while fixing all those BSP bug's as well
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Without those people even your BSP kernel would be what it is , a pice of shit
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Without those people even your BSP kernel would be what it is , a piece of shit
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> How much % Amazingfate,Spooky,Boogie and countless other is your trash kernel
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> We would not be able to use panthor , we would have thousand broken things more , marketing is what count at vendor
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> On your supposedly world's first ARM motherboard, the user can't even configure his SO DIMMS himself. You can't design anything worse - it's just a clown fiesta
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Why should somebody go for this when you can get a Ryzen with a nice GPU , mainline support from day 0 , same price range
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> Option to upgrade your RAM if you like more
<DC-IRC> [Discord] <monkablyat> The Mc Donalds Burger effect man , it looks always amazing on those pictures , you never get a single burger who look like on those pictures when you actually buy one