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<heat>
geist, but bsd people swear by bmake :/
<heat>
except mjg. mjg swears at bmake
<heat>
PESSIMAL
<dh`>
being stuck with gmake is such a headache
<dh`>
:-)
<heat>
meh, it's tolerable, for small projects at least
<heat>
otoh i genuinely think make is not a good build system, period
<heat>
sure, it was probably the shit in the 80s and 90s, but the need for a larger meta-build-system that generates make has always been there
<heat>
and because make is featureful-ish (unlike ninja), it's also slow
<heat>
so it's not a particularly good backend build system
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<dh`>
that's the argument ninja makes, but it's not true
<dh`>
have you ever tried to debug a ninja build spewed from cmake?
<dh`>
it's so much cutpaste that it's completely impossible to read
<dh`>
meanwhile, you only need a makefile generator if your make dialect isn't sufficiently powerful to express what you want directly
<dh`>
and that's why we like bmake
<heat>
why is it not true?
<dh`>
well first I remember someone claiming ninja is slow to the extent of writing an alternate implementation
<heat>
i generally don't need to debug ninja files, i debug whatever is generating them
<dh`>
second, as I said, you don't need a makefile generator
<heat>
that may be true with bmake, i don't know. but i know that I fight with gnu make all the time
<dh`>
<dh`> being stuck with gmake is such a headache
<heat>
:))
<dh`>
also, I realize that a lot of the problem with cmake-spewed ninja is cmake, but it still doesn't seem like the right answer
<heat>
i genuinely don't know how bmake abstracts things, but I really much prefer the abstractions meson, etc give me
<heat>
over figuring out 20 different hacks to get a sane-ish build working with GNU make
<heat>
like, how many pure-makefile projects support out-of-tree builds? probably not many
<dh`>
well yes, that's one of the leading problems with gmake
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<dh`>
with bmake you can readily write either "run the build here and put the objects over there" or "put the objects here and get the sources from over there", or, in fact, both at once
<dh`>
"run the build here and put the objects over there" is usually preferable because it requires less setup
<dh`>
bmake is certainly not free of legacy issues but there's reasons people like it
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<dh`>
anyway, is there a good summary of the abstractions meson give you?
<dh`>
(ideally something like a usenix paper but that's probably unlikely)
<dh`>
looking for a summary of what's interesting about it, from an internals/build specification point of view rather than e.g. marketing material
<dh`>
or "all you need to do is paste this stuff to get started"
<heat>
it's not marketing material, just a manual
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<heat>
although i probably personally wouldn't call meson deeply innovative as much as I would call it "does not make you want to get into the bathtub with your toaster"
<heat>
which for a build systems is like a 8/10 :p
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<dh`>
no, but it also doesn't have the information I was looking for in any obvious place
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<kerravon>
hi. is anyone interested in IBM mainframes? i have written an OS for it (z/PDOS)
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<gog>
mew()
<sham1>
wem
<sham1>
WAKE ME UP, WAKE ME UP INSIDE
<gog>
CAN'T WAKE UP
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<HeTo>
gog: may I pet you?
<gog>
i feel like i've been working on this project for way longer than i have
<gog>
yes
* kazinsal
gives gog headpats
* gog
prr
<kazinsal>
nyan~
<gog>
git says i made my first commit 20 days ago
<gog>
i keep telling my boss "i'm sorry it's taking so long" and he's like "it's really not, it's a big project"
<Ermine>
gog: may I pet you
<gog>
maybe it just feels like a long time because i fucking hate front end dev
<gog>
Ermine: yes
<kazinsal>
I have another 36 hours and then I'm on vacation for a month
* Ermine
pets gog
* gog
prr
* HeTo
pets gog
<gog>
kazinsal: nice! big plans?
* gog
prr
<kazinsal>
I just need to give enough of a shit to pass my one remaining project off to my underling
<gog>
boooooooo
<kazinsal>
then I can relax for a bit
<gog>
passing projects off to underlings is cringe
<kazinsal>
and then probably drive down the coast
<kazinsal>
it's only one project and like, 4 hours of work
<Ermine>
Today's exam not a complete success, but not a failure either
<kazinsal>
and my underling is one I completely have faith in
<kazinsal>
so that 4 hours will not spiral into 10 hours or any other shit I'll have to deal with when I come back
<kazinsal>
so I'll hand shit off, go get absolutely blasted for a night, then sort my ass out and go screaming down the coast with nothing but a passport and a credit card
<kazinsal>
doin it old school style
<kazinsal>
I've got the mystical artifact known as a NEXUS card so I can in theory just roll up to the border and go "ayo lemme into america" and the guards go "yep right on in mate"
<kazinsal>
when I went down a couple weeks ago for a conference in vegas it was fucking MINT
<GeDaMo>
"nothing but a passport and a credit card" ... no clothes? :|
<kazinsal>
scan my card, go the CBP guy
<kazinsal>
"hey man where ya goin" "las vegas sir" "business or pleasure" "business" "what do you do" "datacenter engineer" "welcome to the united states" "thanks man"
<kazinsal>
hadn't even gotten on the plane at that point
<kazinsal>
rolled through all the customs bullshit while still in canada like a goddamn miracle
<gog>
the last time i had to go through TSA it was fine
<gog>
i still cringe at the idea
<kazinsal>
yeah I got to do the canadian equivalent of TSA before US customs
<kazinsal>
much more relaxed
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<gog>
but getting into iceland was easy "how long are you staying?" "one month"
<gog>
that was approx 40 months ago
<kazinsal>
so I'll probably do a thing next few weeks in a week or so where I do a land border rip through the states
<gog>
nice
<kazinsal>
flash my card, tell em I'm not the unabomber
<kazinsal>
burn down I-5 at 80 mph
<gog>
also that reminds me it's time to put in my application for residency renewal
<gog>
i can apply for permanent residence now
<gog>
one step closer to citizenship
<kazinsal>
tell geist I'm on the way for a beer while screaming down the 5 and searching for a 5160 XT
<kazinsal>
the usual
* kof123
files kazinsal under pyromaniac
<kof123>
yes yes not the unabomber
<kazinsal>
I figure I can probably make an impromptu seattle trip work no prob
<Griwes>
The last couple of times though CBP the only question they asked was "so where do you work"
<Griwes>
through*
<Griwes>
They aren't even doing passport stamps now (at least in SF)
<kazinsal>
yeah, I didn't get asked for my actual passport when I went through'
<kazinsal>
I got more grief on my way back into canada
<kazinsal>
and that was 100% the kiosk being a pain in my ask
<heat_>
>borders
<heat_>
bruh
<kazinsal>
the actual CBSA person was a case of hand receipt -> "anything to declare" -> "nope" -> "welcome home"
<kazinsal>
heat_: listen I live next to the most paranoid nuclear armed nation on the planet
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<kazinsal>
despite having multiple documents loudly declaring "I AM NOT A TERRORIST" I still have to go through multiple layers of security to prove thus
<heat_>
yes i understand you live next to canada
<heat_>
still...
<kazinsal>
except at land borders. when I'm driving down I just flash my card and go "lol hey bro" and I'm in the US
<moon-child>
kazinsal: have you tried just not being a terrorist?
<moon-child>
smh
<kazinsal>
the dumbest border shit I've ever experienced
<kazinsal>
was a US border guard asking if I was bringing firearms into the US
<kazinsal>
yeah man
<kazinsal>
I'm fucking bringing guns INTO AMERICA
<zid>
US gotta be real careful about there being guns
<heat_>
"ur not getting in unless you bring some"
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<gog>
they got that shit backwards, drugs flow in and guns flow out
<kazinsal>
it's annoying that the borders are federally restricted
<kazinsal>
I can't roll up straight to WA with an ounce of british columbia's finest
<kazinsal>
and roll back with keltec's, uh, near-finest
<moon-child>
heard from a teacher (in the us at the time) that they used to drive into canada to get booze, since the drinking age is two years younger here
<kazinsal>
yeah it's 19 in BC and 21 in the US
<heat_>
bruh
<kazinsal>
18 in a few provinces
<kazinsal>
there's no federal law saying parents can't let their 15 year olds or whatever have a glass of wine so whatever
<kazinsal>
we're not full freedomland here
<kazinsal>
just mostly freedomland
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<mcrod>
hi
<moon-child>
no
<mcrod>
yes
<moon-child>
ok
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<heat_>
linux
<kazinsal>
no
<heat_>
why not
<kazinsal>
linux + dorks = no
<heat_>
but im not a dork
<kazinsal>
linux + mommies = maybe
<heat_>
linux + cool = cool
<heat_>
linux + mommies = ooga booga
<alethkit>
kazinsal: Mommies?
<kazinsal>
either have big bahonkadonks or be a nyan-ing femboy bottom
<kazinsal>
otherwise no
<heat_>
usage of bahonkadonk in #osdev is skyrocketing
<heat_>
0 uses over the last 20 years -> 1 use over the last 20 years
<moon-child>
it's important to have at least two bahonkadonks
<moon-child>
four bahonkadonks is way too many, though
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<mcrod>
hot take
<mcrod>
it is much easier to write a powershell script than a regular bash script
<mcrod>
this i say as the lord your god
<heat_>
depends
* mjg
burps
<heat_>
if you take #bash's advice
<mjg>
i don't to write 'lol' here but are you are kind of making me
<mjg>
don't want*
<heat_>
you just did
<heat_>
checkmate idiot
<moon-child>
what's wrong with writing lol
<heat_>
lol
<moon-child>
mjg without lols is like #osdev without bahonkadonks
<mjg>
heat_: can i ask a question?
<mcrod>
the thing is, powershell is well defined, and bash and sh and zsh and <insert some other flavor of shell here> seem to be unable to agree on basic things
<heat_>
mjg, quite possibly
<mjg>
heat_: I ALREADY DID IDIOT
<mjg>
mcrod: here is a secret for those in the know: you don't shell script on unix
<heat_>
yeah, you write a perl script
<mjg>
for anything more complicated than few ez lines
<heat_>
or some complicated command pipeline involving a 10 line awk script
<mjg>
heat_: funny story. back in the day i ran into a guy who claimed any C program less than 100 or so lines is basically a shell sript
<mjg>
his code was a bunch of system("..."); :S
<mjg>
genius
<moon-child>
lol
<mjg>
that said, while i have not tried myself in practice, it does look like powershell is a legitimate major step forward compaed to unix shell
<mjg>
for scripting
<mcrod>
i'm basically doing a toolchain thing like I'm doing for work
<mcrod>
and fuck. it works beautifully.
<moon-child>
mjg: I mean
<moon-child>
it's not hard
<mcrod>
what isn't hard
<mjg>
unix afocionados wank over plaintext being the common interface, yet something as simple as stripping the header is not a solved problem
<moon-child>
just don't put in a massive pile of pointless footguns
<moon-child>
ez
<mcrod>
unix shell scripting or powershell
<mjg>
mcrod: he says it is easy to do better than sh
<moon-child>
mcrod: legitimate major steps forward compared to unix shell are not hard
<heat_>
mjg, /proc is peak API and ABI
<mcrod>
oh
<mcrod>
yes
<heat_>
whitespace as ABI is sacrosanct
<moon-child>
(and I will note pwsh on unix would likely be fucking shit due to interop)
<mjg>
heat_: ey mofo, here is another funny story
<mcrod>
don't worry, this is a windows only thing
<mcrod>
also I'm going to have to write WinUSB code and I'm scared
<mjg>
heat_: back in my webhosting days there was a common problem where webdevs would upload a file with #!/usr/bin/php or similar
<mjg>
heat_: and it would fail to exec
<mjg>
heat_: cause of crlf trailer
<heat_>
gtg cu l8er
<moon-child>
wait
<moon-child>
are you saying you're a webshit?
<moon-child>
EXPOSED
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<mjg>
learn to read mofer
<mjg>
i was a SYSADMIN at webshite company
<mcrod>
the nice thing is at least with windows
<mjg>
they should be paying me lifelong reparations for that
<moon-child>
so you were a webshit by proxy
<mjg>
i did fix some php code
<moon-child>
I'm sorry you had to find out this way
<mcrod>
also, I did not know this, unrelated
<mjg>
both the interpreter and some lol sites
<mcrod>
but our CI pipeline is *extremely* beefy
<mjg>
you can call me fullshit develoepr
<mcrod>
and I'm happy about it
<mjg>
so... 2 laptops?
<mcrod>
no it's EPYC
<mjg>
or are you overpaying on amazon
<mcrod>
i don't care if they are
<mcrod>
i don't even know if they are
<mcrod>
all I know is it's EPYC
<mjg>
fucking typo which escaped and they were too lazy to fix
<mjg>
innit
<mcrod>
i've never tried to compile LLVM on windows though
<moon-child>
so just like the entire x86 isa then
<mcrod>
that'll be fun
<mcrod>
i know that you need build tools for visual studio 2022
<heat_>
i think it's a transaction block or something, but i really need to check with the CEO of gay people
<morgan>
it's what i do to fascists on twitter
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<bl4ckb0ne>
does linux uses uefi gop?
<heat_>
yes
<heat_>
actually, well, it depends
<heat_>
define "uses"
<bl4ckb0ne>
im looking at snippets to get how to yse the framebuffer from the kernel
<heat_>
oh you don't need snippets, it's stupid simple
<bl4ckb0ne>
usee as has a way to throw pixels at the screen using the gop fb
<heat_>
it's effectively a bitmap of pixels following the given format (probably RGBA8888 or so)
<heat_>
so given a framebuffer at address X, pixel (0, 0) is at X, pixel (0, 1) is at X + bytes_per_pixel, etc. until you get to the end of the line, then you have to use the framebuffer's pitch
<heat_>
like (0, 0) is at X, (1, 0) is at X + pitch
<heat_>
(etc)
<bl4ckb0ne>
but how do i get a handle to it after calling ExitBootServices
<heat_>
you get all this info before exiting boot services
<bl4ckb0ne>
its persistant right?
<heat_>
yes, until you reconfigure the GPU, if you do
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<bl4ckb0ne>
no gpu yet
<heat_>
yes im aware
<heat_>
but linux does
<bl4ckb0ne>
so i dumo it all in a text file and load that from a kernel driver?
<bl4ckb0ne>
well no gpu in thr kernel im working on
<heat_>
what?
<bl4ckb0ne>
sorry for the confusion
<heat_>
dump what in a text file?
<bl4ckb0ne>
the fb config
<heat_>
why would you dump that in a text file
<bl4ckb0ne>
hm
<bl4ckb0ne>
im lost
<heat_>
well, im lost too. please explain yourself
<heat_>
why do you think the correct solution to getting information through to the kernel is to write to a text file
<bl4ckb0ne>
so what i want is to use the uefi gop framebuffer in my kernel
<bl4ckb0ne>
i got all of the bootload part (locate protocol, mode config etc)
<bl4ckb0ne>
but i dont get how to have access to that fb once i call exitbootservice to draw stuff on it
<heat_>
why?
<heat_>
what would ever stop you from writing to the framebuffer?
<bl4ckb0ne>
retrieve the handle and the mode in the driver
<heat_>
you did not answer my question
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<bl4ckb0ne>
i think nothing would stop me
<heat_>
ok so what's with the text file idea?
<bl4ckb0ne>
dumping all the framebuffer config so once loaded the kernel can get it back
<heat_>
why would you not pass it directly, in memory?
<bl4ckb0ne>
idk that was possible
<bl4ckb0ne>
its my first time messing that low
<heat_>
exitbootservices doesn't wipe memory :)
<bl4ckb0ne>
good to know
<bl4ckb0ne>
so how can i do that
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<heat_>
AllocatePool and pass a pointer to the kernel
<bl4ckb0ne>
thanks!
<mrvn>
how do you pass other infos, like e.g. the memory map?
<gog>
i don't think the framebuffer info pointer becomes invalid after ExitBootServices() so there's a possibility for a way to cheat, but it's definitely safer and more sensible to just copy all the information you care about into your boot data block and pass that to the kernel
<gog>
heat_: a trans block is a block that doesn't identify with its type assigned at instantiation
<mrvn>
gog: do you have to free/release the FB infos?
* gog
is a runtime polymorph
<gog>
no
<gog>
it's static
<gog>
i think
<gog>
i'd have to double check the spec
<mrvn>
then it's probably not a structure allocated for you
<mrvn>
so yes, copy
<bl4ckb0ne>
idk yet heat_, im not the author of the code
<gog>
EfiLoaderData will not be touched by firmware, but you have to be careful not to mark anything with that type as available whne you initialize mm
<gog>
and using the info pointer after EBS is possible because i did do it, but that was on OVMF and definitely not a good idea
<gog>
don't be like me
<bl4ckb0ne>
so the firmware is the kernel part that handles efi shit?
<heat_>
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<heat_>
hey google, what's firmware
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<bl4ckb0ne>
i know its more firm than software but less hard than hardware
<heat_>
in that case i have a strong firmware atm
<bl4ckb0ne>
lewd
<gog>
firmware lives on the motherboard
<gog>
or on the hardware in some way
<gog>
it's not part of the kernel
<bl4ckb0ne>
who lives on the fatherboard
<gog>
i don't have a fatherboard
<heat_>
daddyboard UwU
<gog>
OwO
<heat_>
mommyboard let me dwive ur hawdwawe UwU
<sham1>
no
<morgan>
nooo don't initialize my pewiphewals >///<
<heat_>
stop fwashing your BIOS to me 😳
<gog>
lmfao
<gog>
i hate all of you
<bl4ckb0ne>
i buy a daddyboard
<heat_>
kernel kernel
<heat_>
yes mommyboard
<gog>
unkernel kernel
<heat_>
using memory?
<heat_>
no mommyboard
<heat_>
telling lies?
<bl4ckb0ne>
so, for my issue
<heat_>
no mommyboard
<heat_>
show me your page cache
<heat_>
hahahaha
<gog>
omg no
<bl4ckb0ne>
passing it in memory from bootloader to kernel
<gog>
it's actually v easy
<zid>
I have a framebuffer
<zid>
buffer
<zid>
buffer
<gog>
you can just pass the pointer to the entry function
<zid>
because tearing is for noobs
<zid>
is uefi gop a right-wing protocol?
<morgan>
ha
<zid>
when uefi gnu
<zid>
the communist version
<gog>
uefi cpsu
<zid>
uefi pspspsps, come 'ere, I've got a hessian sack for you
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<mcrod>
holy fuck i am starving
<mcrod>
lately I come in here and either say that, bash sucks, or "hi"
* mrvn
just made some salat with chicken strips.
<mrvn>
mcrod: bash bashing, nice.
<mcrod>
i'm too lazy to make a salad
<morgan>
i could go for a salad
<gog>
i had a salad wrap for lumch
<gog>
and a protein drink
<zid>
I had milkshake and spaghetto
<mcrod>
fuck
<mcrod>
a milkshake sounds good
<gog>
oh dam
<gog>
it does bring all the boys to the yard
<mcrod>
gog may i pet you
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<gog>
mcrod: yes
<mrvn>
I'm so lazy I made lunch at 18:00
<puck>
<zid> uefi pspspsps, come 'ere, I've got a hessian sack for you <- meow
<zid>
puck is a bottom I see
<puck>
i *am* a catgirl
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<zid>
I don't think being a catgirl means you want to be thrown off a bridge in a sack, definitionally :P
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<mrvn>
zid: you only throw cat babies of bridges
<mrvn>
What are the pronouns for a catgirl? purr?
<gog>
meow/prr
* sakasama
nyas.
* gog
patpatapta sakasama
* sakasama
gogs gog.
<mrvn>
The pronoun of the week is: ret/arded. *ta dam*
<mrvn>
brb
<morgan>
well i don't see why that was necessary
<gog>
it wasn't
* mcrod
pets gog
* gog
prr
<sakasama>
"The man, who was said to be an OS developer, was found in a remote field today. Identification was difficult as he had been partially eaten by cats."
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<mcrod>
poggers i forgot to pet you
* mcrod
pets poggers
* poggers
prr
<poggers>
Ermine: yes
<zid>
heat never gives me a snoggers :(
<heat>
zoggers
<mcrod>
i wonder how much work principal engineers actually do
<mcrod>
from what I understand, nothign
<mcrod>
nothing*
<zid>
principally, none?
<mcrod>
overall, I see this type of flow
<mcrod>
associate - does a lot of work; regular - does work; senior; works; principal; rarely
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* Ermine
pets poggers
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<gorgonical>
when do you become goppers?
<gorgonical>
is it like a pokemon thing where it's only at night on certain days of the week?
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<lsdeesm>
Hey everyone, was having some sort of a "dream" to make my own OS :D recently started looking into it (I am python developer 5+exp), found osdevk wiki, and started learning stuff that was always interested for me.. fast forward: Stuck on bare bones. made step by step everything, everything compiles without any problem, grub loaded succesfully also without error, but after pressing enter nothing
<lsdeesm>
happens, screen is just empty, no string nothing..
<zid>
time to debuggerize it then
<zid>
you could also post a link to the binary and I can just open it in a hex editor though tbh
<lsdeesm>
what platform should i use to share binary? :D
<zid>
not a clue, base64 it and post it to gist.github? :P
<lsdeesm>
ok brb :DDDD
<zid>
drop it onto a random private discord channel
<zid>
and copy paste the link it generates
<zid>
email it to santa and tell him to deliver it to me
<zid>
do you happen to have a pxe server running somewhere that's confusing it? :P
<lsdeesm>
I don't think so :D
<gorgonical>
does gcc provide syncrhonization builtins for arm64? This firmware has dsb() calls littered around it but I can't find a definition in the codebase. wtf
<zid>
might be in a header somehere?
<zid>
it's usually just an asm macro in arch/blah
<gorgonical>
I've tried grepping the whole codebase but I don't see anything. Would it be a compiler-provided header?
<gorgonical>
Oh I wonder if its being generated by some preprocessor voodoo and that's why the exact match isn't being found
<zid>
you could always
<zid>
gcc -E a file that uses it
<zid>
or bisect which header causes it to start working
<zid>
int f() { dsb(); }
<gorgonical>
Oh I did just find it. It's some macro bullshit
<zid>
That's just a machine extraction of the manual, nortti
<gorgonical>
I have said before writing a forth in direct assembly is not a bad way to really get to know it
<zid>
which is why the formatting is so messed up
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<gorgonical>
and it's guided, which also helps
<zid>
(useful website though, often easier to scrolling a pdf)
<mcrod>
thought: write snake in assembly
<zid>
writing assembly is for weirdos
<zid>
read it only
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<mcrod>
talk to martin korth
<mcrod>
that poor bastard, i wish he wasn't homeless
<gorgonical>
zid: I agree but if you want to understand how it works you have to dig in and write some
<gorgonical>
But you shouldn't make it a hobby unless you're those stage0 guys
<zid>
not really?
<poggers>
write everything in assembly
<poggers>
like that one os
<zid>
That's a much better take
<poggers>
menuetos or smth
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<mcrod>
i think you should have at least a working command of being able to glance at the disassembly and see if something is totally fucked up
<zid>
either write everything in assembly, and be some kind of devout zealot of a weird cult, or write none.
<poggers>
yes
<gorgonical>
you cannot claim to know c if you're just reading textbooks and you don't write it
<poggers>
i don't claim to know see
<zid>
So I can't read english novels if I don't write any? dang
<poggers>
i can write in it but i don't know it
* zid
sets fire to his 1400 epubs
<mcrod>
you learned your language from when you were a toddler
<gorgonical>
that's not the same. and if you want to analyze a written work it will help substantially to have written one, yes
<zid>
Being an author is a skill, that you need to practice, I am saying there is no need to author assembly.
<mcrod>
doesn't really apply
<zid>
I can read a lot of things I can't write for shit
<gorgonical>
ofc you *could* become proficient at a language by only studying examples. that's how people do with ancient greek and such, but it's certainly not the easy way
<mcrod>
people still do need to write assembly, but it depends on what they're doing
<gorgonical>
yeah that's my point. for regular work of course don't do it. but if you write an os there will be interface with assembly at some point
<gorgonical>
and you should be confident you are doing it right
<mcrod>
the average joe programmer doesn't need to know or care about it for the most part
<zid>
You need to write.. like.. 4 lines of assembly to do an x86 OS
<mcrod>
although I'm a firm believer that people who are working with C/C++ regularly should indeed have the ability to glance at the disassembly and see if shit is making sense
<zid>
Same mcrod
<mcrod>
you may be hit by a compiler bug, you may be hit by undefined behavior, you may want to see if something was actually inlined, you may want to see the quality of autovectorization, etc etc etc...
<zid>
But that's also just part of like.. computing literacy? "I wrote a for loop that adds numbers, so I expect control flow and an add instruction"
<mcrod>
i'm going to tell you now
<zid>
you need to build that intuition
<mcrod>
even in an embedded context, I hardly know anyone who can drop down to assembly and understand it even vaguely
<mcrod>
which is pretty concerning
<mcrod>
it is indeed possible to be a *decent* C/C++ programmer and never have looked once at the assembly
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<zid>
If I were a C++ programmer I wouldn't look at the assembly either tbh
<mcrod>
i would
<mcrod>
but again, *it depends*
<mcrod>
a) can you read that monstrocity
<zid>
your brain can only handle so much clthonic influence before the portal to r'lyeh opens
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<mcrod>
b) was the code written in such a way that the resulting assembly looks decent
<mcrod>
I will make a wager
<zid>
they picked C++
<zid>
of course it's not written reasonably
<gorgonical>
I have now got my kernel secure booting dually with uboot. Now to get linux on there
<mcrod>
using e.g., EASTL, and not any of the fancy dynamic dispatch stuff, or RTTI, exceptions etc.
<zid>
It's like asking if the guy who made his house out of fishing net is a fan of dry hair
<mcrod>
the assembly would be quite readable
<gorgonical>
what kind of saying is that zid
<poggers>
nya nya nya
<mcrod>
i'm not sure what it's supposed to mean either
<mcrod>
what I am sure of is software that is required to be exceptionally performant, like AAA games, which is often written in C++, probably involves the game engine people diving down into the depths of assembly quite often
<mcrod>
but of course, to get it to a readable state, involves basically not using any of the super die hard fancy hard core features of C++
<poggers>
C#
* poggers
does the C# dance
<poggers>
U N I T Y
<mcrod>
should I clean my room
<poggers>
yes
<gorgonical>
absolutely not
<poggers>
(jordan peterson voice) clean up your room
<poggers>
it's the antidote to CHAOS
<mcrod>
i was going to do it
<poggers>
(me weeps
<mcrod>
but now since you mentioned that
<gorgonical>
gasoline and matches is much better
<mcrod>
I'm not sure I should
<gorgonical>
be sure to leave after you throw the lit match though
<gorgonical>
i know as programmers sometimes we can be too literal
<poggers>
i'm too littoral
* poggers
collapes into a lake
<gorgonical>
isn't that a river
<poggers>
whatever body of water littoiral refers to
<gorgonical>
wiktionary says its a shoreline, so we're both wrong
<gorgonical>
I was thinking fluvial maybe
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<poggers>
we chased them away
<gorgonical>
don't they know this is not actually a channel for os development
<gorgonical>
we talk about cheese and raccoons here
<poggers>
it is sometimes
<mcrod>
is it august yet
<poggers>
it's not even july bruh
<mcrod>
you're supposed to say "yes" so I can move out
<poggers>
roommate problems?
<mcrod>
no
<mcrod>
first move out ever
<poggers>
as in moving out of your parents?
<gorgonical>
moving off to the big wide world
<mcrod>
poggers yes
<poggers>
dang
<poggers>
i did that like 6 months after turning 18 lol
<gorgonical>
same here but that was because 6 months after my birthday I started college
<mcrod>
i never went to college
<mcrod>
that's also the reason this is my first time moving out
<poggers>
i had a toxic home life and needed to gtfo
<poggers>
and then i moved in with my cousin and continued to have a toxic home life XD
<mcrod>
because i never went to college, it meant I never had the ability to move
<gorgonical>
out of the frying pan
<mcrod>
but, issue resolved
<poggers>
nice congrats
<gorgonical>
the traditional first meal in your new home is pasta salad
<poggers>
and the traditional first night is spent using various intoxicants with disreputable friends
* poggers
is a disreputable friend
<gorgonical>
the first day when I moved in I did the most 18-year old thing ever and bought two cases of soda and had to carry them up seven flights of stairs
<poggers>
lol nice
<mcrod>
are you an american
<gorgonical>
very
<mcrod>
i am an american too
<mcrod>
this is also something I would have done when I was 18
<gorgonical>
in the proceeding decade I realized that the case sale was ripoff and also having access to that much sugared caffeine is a bad idea for class attendance
<mcrod>
i assume you went for CS
<gorgonical>
eventually yes but I started as a philosophy student and then the delusion went away and I switched to mathematics
<heat_>
i identify as an american
<heat_>
my pronouns are yee/haw
<poggers>
me too
<poggers>
mine are howdy/pardner
<gorgonical>
as someone from the south and not texas, cowboy stuff always enrages me
<heat_>
dang/ol
<poggers>
well, ok, i was assigned american at birth
<poggers>
an unfortunate consequence of geography
<gorgonical>
actually mental how hard it is to quite being american though. it costs like $5000 just to ask
<poggers>
yeah and they can say "no"
<gorgonical>
"we want that foreign tax money bb, you can't leave yet"
<mcrod>
poggers i have to ask
<heat_>
poggers
<mcrod>
how did you end up in iceland or wherever the hell it is you live
<mcrod>
from the US
<gorgonical>
or even more accurately, we want you to go through the hassle of filing taxes from a foreign country just to pay no taxes because the local tax rate is higher
<mcrod>
i await your answer forthwith.
<heat_>
"i want to go to ~usa"
<poggers>
i met somebody in a fb group and we fell in love and i moved to be with her
<mcrod>
ah
<heat_>
yo thats
<heat_>
kinda wild
<heat_>
and cute
<heat_>
and wild
<poggers>
it's actually the second time it happened to me
<poggers>
first time was a bit of a disaster
<gorgonical>
that you moved to iceland for love?
<poggers>
no, that i moved a distance for love
<mcrod>
i've been using IRC since 2006, and I've seen some things
<mcrod>
i knew two people who met on IRC and got married, no shit
<poggers>
not surprising
<heat_>
very surprising
<poggers>
heat_: i love u will u marry me
<gorgonical>
none of you people are even people to me. just cats
<mcrod>
heat was like... a fetus
<heat_>
poggers, yeah sure sgtm
<gorgonical>
heatus
<mcrod>
god. i'm old.
<heat_>
mcrod, excuse me, i was 4
<mcrod>
(i'm 28 but I feel like i'm 38)
<gorgonical>
in 2006 i was 12
<mcrod>
heat_: yeah, fetus
<heat_>
you're not that old you fucking idiot
<mcrod>
i'm almost 30
<mcrod>
you won't understand until you're there.
<poggers>
in 2006 i was 18
<nortti>
< mcrod> i knew two people who met on IRC and got married, no shit ← two of my parents' friends who worked at nokia in the 90s did that
<mcrod>
classic nerd love
<nortti>
came up that I use irc and they were a bit surprised it was still around iirc
<heat_>
yeah
<heat_>
it's still surprising
<gorgonical>
i thought irc was the standard way finns met
<heat_>
no, finns usually meet at their day job at nokia
<mcrod>
IRC was basically the place until Discord came in and killed it entirely
<heat_>
what
<heat_>
no one used IRC in 2015 either
<mcrod>
nonsense
<gorgonical>
certainly i didn't
<nortti>
mcrod: from what I hear a lot of ppl migrated from skype to discord
<heat_>
nonnonsense
<mcrod>
the only reason I even bother on IRC is because I will never find more intelligent people to discuss programming with on discord
<mcrod>
it will simply never happen
<gorgonical>
i unironically think the ability to embed images/gifs is the worst feature discord has
<heat_>
skype, teamspeak, mumble, msn(!)
<nortti>
I do remember irc still being a computer nerd thing circa 2011 or so
<nortti>
now it's not even that anymore
<poggers>
depends on the network ig
<heat_>
when does this crap kick the bucket
<mcrod>
not going to happen
<mcrod>
I thought it was going to happen after that dude bought freenode and completely destroyed it
<heat_>
yeah, never going to die
<heat_>
just like usenet
<nortti>
it is not dead which can eternal lie
<mcrod>
and with strange aeons
<poggers>
he bought the domain and the infra, not the people who ran the place
<gorgonical>
all i see on usenet now is deranged people posting quasi-religious prophecies
<mcrod>
is comp.lang.c still active
<gorgonical>
though i'm not exactly in the know about which groups to check
<heat_>
hey that's almost like IRC
<poggers>
i was never a fan of usenet
<poggers>
i like people to instantly see my unhinged ramblings
<gorgonical>
comp.lang.ada is still the de facto place to discuss it
<heat_>
omg poggers
<poggers>
no that's where they discuss me
<nortti>
reminds me, I used to actually live pretty close (like, couple km) from the place irc was invented at (oulu university linnanmaa campus). don't think they had the original sever on display anywhere sadly
<gorgonical>
go get an eternal september acc and you too can join the ranks of deranged posters on usenet
<poggers>
i'm happier being a deranged poster on #osdev
<poggers>
nortti: that's sad actually
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<gorgonical>
for the gic3, is the redistributor at the same address for each core, but banked? as in, there's no addr + core_id * offset thing to do?
<heat_>
all the gics are banked except when they're not
<heat_>
i think there's a device tree property for "haha this one isn't banked"
<heat_>
but that's very rare anyway I think
<gorgonical>
hmm that's not good. I was hoping my timer stopped working because I was booting on a different core
heat_ is now known as heat
<zid>
I just had some yuel ramen by ottogi , can recommend
<heat>
gorgonical, are you delivering the IRQ to the wrong core?
<gorgonical>
possibly
<gorgonical>
but if i'm configuring cntp_ctl_el0 and the local gicd shouldn't it be going to the right place?
<gorgonical>
that kind of interrupt won't even make it to the gicd
<gorgonical>
local gicr**
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<vny>
I requested a 150GB memory through mmap (MAP_PRIVATE | MAP_ANONYMOUS) and the most surprising thing for me was the associated anon region in /proc/[pid]/smaps started at address 0x7ED99E5E8E80 and ended 0x7EFF1E4B1F80.
<vny>
Doesn't the heap grow from bottom, why did the allocator decide to place the region so high up in the address space?
<vny>
Wouldn't this cause issues if the stack started growing larger -- will require to remap the region to a different location (at a much lower address space)
<\Test_User>
mmap is seperate from the heap, not a part of it
<heat>
wrong
<vny>
I mean when I malloc above 128kB glibc will mmap and not use sbrk, so I would call mmapped region heap without a name or '[heap]'
<heat>
mmap can be used for the heap. the brk is old as fuck
<heat>
many allocators do not use brk
<\Test_User>
ah right yeah; *mmap on your own with no address requested?
<heat>
vny, the "heap" does not grow from the bottom
<heat>
in theory, brk grows from the bottom. in practice, not really true anymore
<heat>
especially as you place programs high up anyway
<vny>
\Test_User: yes no address requested
<heat>
from a trivial example in my arm64 alpine system
<heat>
i've literally gone through this with you before
<poggers>
wasn't that somebody else
<heat>
vin is vny
<poggers>
oh
<zid>
(kinda, duh?)
<zid>
He asks that question every week
<zid>
for the past 8 weeks
<zid>
like we're a linux support channel, too
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<poggers>
i don't support using linux
<vny>
lol I don't think it's the same question though. No I don't think you are a linux support channel, I don't take your help for granted.
<heat>
my name is heat and i support haiku
<poggers>
haiku is good actually
<vny>
I am curious about these things and I have no else to talk to them about, so I ask here
<heat>
it's the system with the heighest ratio of geist-derived code probably
<heat>
hence, godo
<heat>
good
vny is now known as vin
<poggers>
true
<vin>
These things are not documented well, moreover many of this information seems to be gained through experience which I lack
<heat>
<heat> 1) Linux sucks 2) BSD sucks even worse
<heat>
fax
<heat>
the G in UNIX means great
<poggers>
these things are consequences of the underlying mechanisms that the kernel uses to manage virtual memory, which in the modern linux kernel is mostly mmap()
<vin>
Maybe true but major workloads around the world runs on linux, so it helps to know the linux details
<heat>
yes but we should all use windows 11
<vin>
haha
<heat>
reject shit systems
<heat>
use windows 11, play pebble
<poggers>
nt kernel good, windows bad
<heat>
linux kernel bad, linux bad, GNU/linux bad, musl/linux horrendous
<poggers>
gnu/kWindowsNT
<mjg>
windows 9x best
<heat>
what
<mjg>
Windows 98SE gang unite
<heat>
it didn't even have pinball mate
<poggers>
VXD VXD VXD
<mjg>
how to crash windows 9x
<mjg>
1. boot it
<heat>
also IIRC the solitaire on it was kinda shit
<heat>
windows vista had 3D fucking chess
<mjg>
there was a shite racing game included on the install cd for 95 tho
<mjg>
so your argument is invalid
<mjg>
poggers: you being and old chap now are presumably also a 9x victim
<mjg>
i was going to say it was utmost shite, but then i remembered "millenium edition"
<poggers>
i was a ME user
<heat>
vista had 3D chess, 7 had 3D chess and a weird cake game, xp had pinball and goated solitaire
<poggers>
but i also had 95 and 98 for a time
<heat>
windows 8+ had idk candy crush
<poggers>
heat: was it goated with the sauce
<mjg>
funny story. i had windows 2000 back in the days when blaster was roaming around
<mjg>
the exploit would still crash some of the system
<poggers>
me too
<poggers>
i never managed to get it tho
<mjg>
duuude
<mjg>
check this out
<heat>
gosh why are you all so fucking old and outdated
<mjg>
i was hanging out with my friend reinstalling xp
<vin>
heat: https://imgur.com/a/GEfi272 here is a graph with virtual page number on y-axis and time on x-axis, the dots indicate the memory accesses of an application doing sequential scan. My surprise came from the choice of linux to mmap the 150gb region all the way in the top
<bslsk05>
imgur.com: vpn - Album on Imgur
<mjg>
literally on the first fucking boot it got blastered :d
<poggers>
mjg: lmao
<mjg>
at the time he had internet from a lolo provider which made everyone on the same network
<mjg>
lan-like
<mjg>
so
<heat>
vin, mmaps are all the way up top
<mjg>
thousands of users
<poggers>
what's lolo?
<mjg>
it was a cable company from my shite town
<poggers>
ah ok
<heat>
vin, PIE ELF executables get loaded around 0x55...
<poggers>
also yikes
<mjg>
they also provided unsecured wifi
<poggers>
double yikes
<mjg>
my own provider was also over wifi
<mjg>
it frequently went down
<poggers>
i hope you had nordvpn
<poggers>
which is the sponsor of me today
<mjg>
when it did i would connect to the cable provider, sniff with tcpdump and assign myself an ip which appears unused at the time
<heat>
no, it was easterneuropeanvpn
<mjg>
then i would tell my provider using the internez that my internetz are ot working
<vin>
heat: Yea I made sure they are non PIE
<mjg>
poggers: by any chance are you looking to improve your cat-imitation skills?
<poggers>
no, they're impeccable
<mjg>
poggers: check out my sponsor brilliant.org/onyxisshite
<bslsk05>
brilliant.org: Page not found | Brilliant
<mjg>
you can get 10% off
<poggers>
that's mean
<poggers>
be nice to heat he's my little pogchamp
<mjg>
that's the affiliate link they gave me
<mjg>
what can i say
<heat>
i could roast FreeBSD but i would merely need to show apple's donations this year
<heat>
did they give you 10 bucks yet
<mjg>
poggers: aight, but i;ll have you know he can be quite mean at times
<poggers>
i know he's been quite mean to me from time to time
<mjg>
still ways to go to 25 years of age innit
<poggers>
i don't fault him his youth and impetuousness
<mjg>
frontal lobe 'n shit
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<heat>
my youth is commendable
<poggers>
have any of you used illumos
<heat>
no
<mjg>
:d
<mjg>
is that a trick question?
<poggers>
i tried opensolaris way back like 10 years ago and it was really bad
<mjg>
wait you are seirous
<poggers>
and i just got curious about it again
<heat>
where's bryan cantrill when you need him
<mjg>
poggers: *do not approach*
<poggers>
bryan cantrill but can he whistle?
<heat>
badumtss
<mjg>
morei mportantly, has he ever kissed a girl?
<poggers>
lmfao
<heat>
yes
<heat>
has david miller?
<mjg>
heat: ask your mom
* heat
breaks the 4th wall and stares at the camera
<poggers>
i don't kiss girls i develop operating systems development
<mjg>
poggers: they only have a handful of people larping a well staffed corporate environment
<poggers>
so does my company and we get by
<mjg>
poggers: at this point it is probably unusable even in a vm just for lulzies
<mjg>
i'm afraid to google for drm drivers for illumos
<heat>
that's kind of rich coming from a BSD developer
<mjg>
drivers are bsd licensed and are supported through hacked linux-compatible api support
<mjg>
so.. you take that back
<nortti>
is there actually a well-defined "DRM API" or is it just whatever parts of linux the drivers happen to need?
<mjg>
general linux kernel interfaces
<poggers>
the internal api of the kernel is a bit volatile innit?
<mjg>
yes and no
<mjg>
it does take quite a bit of effort to do major updates
<mjg>
but ultimatley it works
<poggers>
i c i c
<mjg>
anyhow, for any use in production, the only (sometimes) viable non-linux unix-like is freebsd, and even then that's for select cases
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<mjg>
you are autoscrewed by not using linux 's what i'm saying
<mjg>
well, perhaps "you are paying a big tax" would be more accurate
<bnchs>
hi osendevors
<mjg>
i think up to around 2011 or so you could use the other systems provided you knew how to do it
<nortti>
mjg: is that because of there being companies that have decided to build on top freebsd which also contribute back to the project, or are there other reasons why freebsd is more production-viable than other BSDs?
<mjg>
for years now it's all crap -- lacking drivers and features
<mjg>
nortti: kind of circular on that one
<heat>
nortti, ok so actually there's a DRM "subsystem" core that has a bunch of APIs, in theory you could implement those yourself. then you have the drivers, that use those APIs + a bunch of normal linux anyway
<mjg>
nortti: freebsd was always the biggest variant and consequently had more commercial use
<heat>
yeah freebsd has the sellouts
<mjg>
nortti: i can name you legit products which use freebsd *today* (and have been for a long time), any other bsd maybe has 1 tops
<heat>
playstation
<heat>
even though it's horrifically forked and fucked up
<mjg>
well that's again not completely accurate. there is probably funny products here and there
<mjg>
some guy was adamant there are elevators running openbsd
<nortti>
what else uses freebsd other than juniper, actually?
<mjg>
which technically may be true
<heat>
hahahaha
<heat>
freebsd has playstation, juniper, netflix
<heat>
any other?
<mjg>
netapp
<heat>
yeah a bunch of routing stuff
<mjg>
yandex
<heat>
netgear?
<mjg>
they are mostly a linux shop
<mjg>
... but somehow they keep adding code to freebsd
<mjg>
so
<mjg>
i'm guessing it is used :p
<heat>
all things considered it's kind of poor
<mjg>
see my previous remarks
<heat>
although freebsd is the SELLOUT capital comparing with the other crap UNIX systems
<mjg>
ey
<mjg>
stop being so mean
<mjg>
pogchamp
<heat>
you're a SELLOUT
<heat>
why do u work for money
<heat>
u like big capital, is that y?
<heat>
oh shit actually illumos does have some users
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<heat>
joyent, oxide
<mjg>
joyent is dead
<mcrod>
freebsd is the unsung engine powering stuff
<heat>
what
<mcrod>
the fuck do you mean what
<mjg>
racktop-something has a storage appliance on illumos
<heat>
freebsd is not some insane engine powering the world
<mcrod>
i didn't say it was powering the world
<mcrod>
I said it was powering stuff
<heat>
it does power some stuff, and it's a venerable system
<mjg>
geezers are getting hardons
<mcrod>
what I want it to do is power my house full of nice cool air
<mjg>
mate
<heat>
THE UNIX HERITAGE
<mjg>
SHOW SOME FUCKING RESPECT
<mjg>
amiriht
<gorgonical>
heat you've had too much coffee today or something
<heat>
locore.S
<mcrod>
i can't drink coffee
<mjg>
legit?
<heat>
crack cocaine
<mcrod>
legit
<mjg>
ouch
<mjg>
heart condition?
<mcrod>
no, this is because of my anxiety condition
<poggers>
i found freebsd code in illumos already
<poggers>
not really surprising
<heat>
oh no
<heat>
run!
<mjg>
poggers: drivers?
<poggers>
efi loader
<mjg>
oh
<mcrod>
also even if I didn't have this problem, I don't want to be a caffeine addict
<mjg>
poggers: there is one dude doing bootloader work and he commits to both
<mcrod>
is it really a surprise that everyone is fucking tired all of the time
<poggers>
this has a freebsd copyright header
<mjg>
they imported the freebsd boot loader
<mjg>
and have a guy working on it
<poggers>
ah
<mjg>
freebsd being the upstream
<gorgonical>
mcrod: I drink loads of caffeine and it has basically no tiredness effect on me. I'm extraordinarily lucky really. my gif is a bona fide vampire
<mjg>
mcrod: check out some SCIENCE
<mjg>
according to credible youtube videos i watched
<heat>
the joe rogan experience doesn't count
<mjg>
people get into shit with cocaine^Wcaffeine because they drink it too early
<mcrod>
well, either you get really really functional/awake (the stimulant effect, which people are addicted to) and then you crash heavily, leading you to drink more coffee, then you get into a vicious cycle, or you're one of those lucky people who get functional and don't have a drop
<mjg>
you need to let sleepy shite dissolve
<mjg>
to avoid the crash later
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<mjg>
see above. the crash is there because people drink it too early
<mjg>
heat: HUBERMAN
<mcrod>
this doesn't change the fact most people are addicted to coffee
<mjg>
you need to wait about 90 minutes after wake up
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<mjg>
i started doing it and no crashes
<mjg>
no panics either
<heat>
mjg: jamie, pull up that video of a bear mauling mr huberman
<poggers>
i don't usually get any caffeine until about an hour after i wake up
<mcrod>
i've never been big on the whole "you need a stimulant to wake up"
<mjg>
poggers: good girl
<poggers>
but this week my wife has been getting up early and making some and i've had a bit before leaving for work which has not worked out well for me
<mjg>
poggers: but afair the recommendation is 1.5 dawg
<mcrod>
fun fact
<mcrod>
breathing in pure caffeine dust will cause your heart to explode
<heat>
i dont take caffeine unless i really need to
<zid>
depends how much of it you breathe
<zid>
I breathe pure caffiene dust all the time
<mcrod>
do you work in a coffee factory
<mjg>
heat: you made me realize joe rogan is probably popular with both genz and millenials
<mjg>
how does that work :X
<zid>
no, but putting a spoon of powder into mug
<zid>
aerosolizes picograms of it
<heat>
mjg, yeah joe rogan is popular because joe rogan is a great podcast host, even if a bit of a dumbass
<mcrod>
i wonder why people hate uh, uh
<mcrod>
fuck what's his name
<mjg>
what's your take on LEX FRIDMAN
<mcrod>
lex friedman
<mcrod>
yes
<mcrod>
I hate, hate hate hate his podcasts
<heat>
lex friedman is joe rogan for pseudo-intellectuals
<mjg>
:]
<mcrod>
but I don't hate the guests he brings on for the most part
<mcrod>
you know, like donald knuth
<mjg>
afair they are best buddies
<gorgonical>
wait wtf he had knuth on?/
<mcrod>
yes
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<mjg>
my problam with both is that they let their guests spew massive hot taeks
<mcrod>
what I enjoy explaining to people is how he explained "premature optimization is the root of all evil" did not mean what it 'means' today
<mjg>
and they are kind of indiscriminatory when it comes to inviting people
<gorgonical>
at least joe used to pretend he was an idiot and didn't know better
<mjg>
fucking ben shapiro?
<heat>
lets say, hypothetically, freebsd sucked
<mjg>
OH
<mjg>
go on
<mcrod>
i like freebsd
<heat>
that's it, no need to speculate, it already sucks
<mjg>
proof by presumption
<gorgonical>
which bsd is the most like a hobby os still
<heat>
ben shapiro a GNU plus linux user
<gorgonical>
he better not be or i'm quitting linux altogether
<mcrod>
what was that project where some people tried to place freebsd's userland with GNU's
<mjg>
debian gnu/kfreebsd
<poggers>
gnu/kfreebsd
<poggers>
i mentioned it earlier
<mcrod>
ah
<gorgonical>
didn't gentoo attempt this also
<mcrod>
oh well I wasn't looking
<mjg>
DEBIAN
<mcrod>
:(
<poggers>
aw sorry
<heat>
there's a huge wave of freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedum nuts in the GNU SLASH LINUX community
<mjg>
heat: did you mean Gnu/Linux-libre?
<mcrod>
i release everything I write under the MIT license for posterity
<heat>
Gnu's an animal
<mjg>
poggers: i have a weak recollection of someone doing gentoo+openbsd
<mcrod>
because there's no way in hell I'll ever have the money or resources to enforce GPL
<mjg>
poggers: i don't know if it got off the ground
<mcrod>
if there is a license violation, I would like to be involved as much as possible, especially if someone made money off of my work
<kazinsal>
steve harvey kill gif but with rms's face photoshopped on
<mcrod>
let's say, millions.
<mcrod>
it would be nice if i had millions
<poggers>
i release everything with no license unless i cribbed it a little too closely from some code i found that had a license
<poggers>
or directly copied it
<poggers>
which is very infrequently
<mjg>
ah the classic
<mjg>
what's the license ofSO code samples
<poggers>
the "don't ever use this" license
<mjg>
the license should be "don't use in production you fuck", but the fuck i know
<mjg>
right
<kazinsal>
zero clause bsd
<kazinsal>
it's just the "LOL GOOD LUCK" all caps nwarranty disclaimer
<mjg>
that's kind of the beerware license
<heat>
i've considered relicensing Onyx to GPLv2
<mjg>
"just don't sue me, past that have fun with your kinks"
<mcrod>
do the osdev logs have a license
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<mjg>
yes, gnu colonel private license
<poggers>
mjg: i'm going to grok the solaris kernel and we are going to do gnu/killumos
<nortti>
< mjg> what's the license ofSO code samples ← looks to be CC-BY-SA. I think GPLv3 is considered accebtably "alike", so you might be allowed to use it in GPL codebases
<heat>
i've considered porting glibc to freebsd again
<heat>
even today, and this motherfucker wrote this 15 years ago
<mjg>
:d
<mjg>
dude
<mjg>
plz
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<mjg>
perhaps i should remind you of a magic patch from joyent (under cantrill) which added atomics to syscall entry/exit
<mjg>
and which turbo shafted performance as a result
<mjg>
and which *i* reported years after the fact
<heat>
ok, why is he to blame?
<mjg>
everyone involved was ex-sun
<mjg>
and somehow nobody found the breakage for years after it happened?
<mjg>
for that to take place nobody has to be profiling
<mjg>
for one
<mjg>
the original idea also showcases lack of understanding of smp
<heat>
does that mean solaris sucks or does that mean some ex-solaris people suck?
<mjg>
once more nobody stopped it
<mjg>
solaris has lunacy of that caliber all over mate
<heat>
so does le performant linuks
<mjg>
perhaps i shoud remind you of their pessimal mutex implementation
<mjg>
it's all confident handwaving, when the reality is different
<heat>
difference is linux has thousands of times more moneyz than illumos
<heat>
still, task_lock!
<mjg>
illumos could be way faster than it is if someone competent sat down over the weekend
<mjg>
not to be confused with fast
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<mjg>
> Intuition is frequently wrong—be data intensive. In our experience, many scalability problems can be attributed to a hot path that the developing engineer originally believed (or hoped) to be a cold path. When cutting new software from whole cloth, you will need some intuition to reason about hot and cold paths—but once your software is functional, even in prototype form, the time for intuition has
<mjg>
ended: your gut must defer to the data.
<mjg>
great advice bryan, too bad nobody uses it
<mjg>
including your own folk
<mjg>
profiling of any workload after that shite would show the problem
<heat>
i think you're underestimating their problems
<heat>
i guarantee you you're not making it go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr over a single weekend
<mjg>
for example they have mutex-protected refcounts on vnodes
<mjg>
and they adjust them for every path component during lookup
<vin>
\whois mebeim
<mjg>
converting that to atomics is a matter of hours and a massive speed up
<mjg>
another sampe problem, their vm is doing turbo idiocy
<vin>
\who mebeim
<mjg>
1. numerous back-to-back atomic ops on shared areas, which can be batched instead
<mjg>
2. ideas like "let's allocate numa-specific locks all in one cacheline to reduce cache misses"
<mjg>
so allocations on 2 distinct domains bounce the line holding 2 locks
<mjg>
and so on
<mjg>
fixing all of this shit is one weekend
<mjg>
and a massive speed up
<mjg>
not to be confused with making ot anywhere near close to optimal
<mjg>
for 1., this is mostly for process exit
<mjg>
where they are tearing down tons of pages
<zid>
fox going nuts outside
<zid>
how do I make it stop
<mjg>
whatd oes the fox say
<klange>
yip
<zid>
i wish
<zid>
the fox says EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
<zid>
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
<klange>
that's screaming, you have a screaming fox
<zid>
They do that
<gorgonical>
yeah but what noise do raccoons make
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<heat>
bark
<heat>
literally, not even woof, they just say "bark"
* morgan
actually woofs
<zid>
raccoons make stealth noises
<zid>
*stealth*
<zid>
Like that
<heat>
what noise do cows make
<heat>
i cant figure this out
<zid>
sizzle
<zid>
If cows weren't supposed to be eaten, why are they made out of steak?
<poggers>
i'm tired
<poggers>
my legs hurt
<heat>
u gym today or what
<zid>
god played a blinder on that day
<zid>
"So we make a slow, lumbering animal that's easy to catch" "Okay"
<poggers>
yeh
<zid>
"But we make it out of steak"
<zid>
"GENIUS"
<poggers>
tuesday and thursday
<heat>
i tennis'd today
<heat>
considering going to the gym tomorrow morning, but maybe not
<gorgonical>
so for some fucking reason the timer isn't firing
<gorgonical>
but y tho
<gorgonical>
tval just wraps around
<gorgonical>
must be borked gicr enables
<heat>
poggers, i want 2 be yuge
<heat>
fugging shredded
<zid>
tennis? in this heat? fuck me
<heat>
meh i've played in warmer
<zid>
Did you survive?
<gorgonical>
if an interrupt is disable, will it show up in the gicr set-pending registers anyway?
<gorgonical>
or can it not be marked pending if its disabled
<heat>
isn't disabled = masked
<heat>
if so, i would guess it still gets marked as pending, but it's not delivered
<gorgonical>
okay
<gorgonical>
i wish it were easier to inspect the gicr in gdb
<heat>
-trace gic* in qemu
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<gorgonical>
holy shit
<gorgonical>
why did i never know about this
<heat>
cuz u never asked, probably
<gorgonical>
it defo has to be disabled, i see it clearly says int 30 goes to level 1