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<heat>
zid, welcome back
<heat>
do you want to play football manager now
<heat>
it's all the fun aspects of football with best aspects of being a nerd and looking at a stats spreadsheet
<geist>
do you get to write macros?
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<heat>
good question, there's probably ways to export into excel
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<heat>
unfortunately the INCOMPETENT GAME DEVS didn't write a macro system for their sports game
<heat>
smh
<kof123>
inb4 moneyballOS
<zid>
bad game
<zid>
do not purchase
<zid>
I only get 840M/keys sec at RC5 on this cpu :(
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<zid>
I still don't have full connectivity and they keep rebooting random routers :'(
<zid>
heat fix my isp
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<pog>
i'm poggin out
<zid>
My internet is pog
* sakasama
is more broken than your ISP.
<zid>
can you also not find other countries on a map
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<heat>
why is elon musk doing market manipulation again
<heat>
also google's cutting costs on STAPLERS which is fucking hilarious
<pog>
heat: he needs to boost his cash flow to pay for his meme and racism factory
<heat>
they made a racism factory now???
<heat>
damn, industrialization is a bitch
<pog>
yeah, wait till you see the GigaBigaFactory, they're consolidating production of every bigotry there
<Ermine>
wtf musk is doing?
<heat>
i miss the local grown local owned racism
<heat>
none of this new Big Racism bullcrap
<heat>
Ermine, he changed twitter's bird thingy in the web page to a doge and now dogecoin shot up 300%
<heat>
30*
<heat>
misstyped
<Ermine>
Crap
<heat>
(or it mistyped and typo'd again? :v)
<pog>
in the meantime the SEC and the CFTC are looking at him for market manipulation for dogecoin a few years ago
<pog>
so he's doing another pump-n-dump
<heat>
if you do market manipulation twice, the SEC get confused and stop investigating
<Ermine>
I wonder if some airstrike is looking for him
<heat>
damn you really did read the communist manifesto like you said a few days ago
<pog>
the SEC doesn't have a case for that one, dogecoin isn't a security
<pog>
(allegedly)
<Ermine>
not really
<heat>
feeling qt, might redistribute wealth later idk
<Ermine>
I wanted to read it, but I have more interesting things to do
<zid>
If I ever become CEO of a big company, I'm going to insert traps into the office budget
<zid>
Like, £20/mo for staplers
<zid>
and if you attempt to remove said budget, you're immediately fired
<zid>
because you're clearly just a busybody trying to make people's lives worse for trivial numberchasing that hampers the ability of the business to function correctly
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<heat>
being fiscally responsible in tech companies is all about careful management of office supplies
<zid>
Yea, not the hundreds of millions of dollars in servers
<zid>
and offices
<zid>
it's the staplers that are the problem
<pog>
speaking of google
<pog>
is it me or did youtube main page get worse recently
<pog>
i had a carefully curated set of things i cared about and now it's vomiting up garbage
<heat>
it looks and works ok here
<pog>
or did i hatewatch the wrong thing
<heat>
probably?
<zid>
youtube had non-garbage vomit?
<pog>
guess i need to wipe my watch history again
<heat>
it's remarkable how well youtube works IMO
<heat>
i restarted playing chess and suddenly half the front page was chess videos
<zid>
youtube is currently on a kick of recommending me people *analyzing* videos by a person named.. jerma?
<zid>
I've 'never recommend this channel' 30 of them so far
<zid>
I still haven't even seen a video by this jerma person
<heat>
jerma is a popular twitch streamer
<zid>
which is precisely I would NEVER watch one
<zid>
if you're popular on twitch I probably cannot stand you for even a millisecond
<Ermine>
You people care about what youtube suggests you?
<zid>
I can't watch project binky on a loop *forever*
<Ermine>
I'm just going straight to the subscription list or to the search bar
<GeDaMo>
I just use !yt through DDG
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<Ermine>
ddg?
<GeDaMo>
DuckDuckGo, a search engine
<Ermine>
Ah
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<heat>
duck duck go is peak irc paranoidyness change my mind
<GeDaMo>
It has many 'bang' commands to access other sites
<zid>
youtube search is hilariously useless
<FireFly>
I use ddg because it provides better results than google for years at this point afaik
<zid>
ddg is google btw
<GeDaMo>
I think it's more Bing actually :P
<Ermine>
zid: re yt search: huh, usually I find what I want
<Ermine>
ddg is a condom for other search engines
<zid>
yup
<zid>
and all search results are seo'd to shit, because the web is seo'd to shit
<zid>
remember when google would de-rank pages if they did that? lol
<nikolar>
ddg doesn't understand -term though
<zid>
probably not, it was before heat was bor
<zid>
born
<heat>
bing is the best
<zid>
bing might actually be better than google r
<zid>
rn
<heat>
i have no clue what you people are on about
<zid>
(The results are the same bug bing has had 10 trillion fewer dmca requests so far)
<heat>
google works fine for me
<zid>
you've never used google in 2002, heat
<heat>
i have not
<slidercrank>
who discussed the transition from Libera to Discord yesterday? It was First April's joke
<zid>
go search for like, a recipe in english, and tell me the first time you hit someone's blog or something explaining their actual recipe
<heat>
partly because i wasn't alive for most of 2002
<zid>
and not an seo content farm corporate website
<zid>
google used to give results back like encarta or a library does
<zid>
it'd find the *best* example of the information you wanted
<zid>
that's why they added the quick results box at the top, because they realize their search results are fucking useless now
<bslsk05>
www.dotdashmeredith.com: Dotdash Meredith - America's Largest Digital & Print Publisher
<zid>
That's who runs spruceeats
<zid>
the fact you couldn't even *tell* says a lot about the media you're used to imo
<heat>
i don't fucking know man
<heat>
anyone can throw together a shitty generic web page
<zid>
Like anybody would put anything on the web at all these days unless it was to earn brownie points with some random corp via web 2.0
<GeDaMo>
I thought we were already on web 3 :P
<zid>
web 3.0 is what you're on if you paid crypto to use web 2.0-
<heat>
i'm on web 4.0
<heat>
for no particular reason, i just am
<GeDaMo>
Ahead of the curve :P
<GeDaMo>
Or maybe that should be aheat of the curve :|
<zid>
2021: Google releases MUM - an AI/ML model that aims to reduce the number of queries a user needs to make by including results for related queries that it thinks you'll make next.
<zid>
2022 (May): An update to Google's search algorithm deprioritizes reference websites like dictionaries, lyric websites, and wikis while promoting video content.
<zid>
2022 (June): After years denying that a pages 'freshness' affects its ranking, Google increases its importance in the algorithm dramatically - reportedly affecting the ranking of 35% of search results.
<zid>
If you want actual examples of google just trending into the toilet for if you actually want useful results
<zid>
and not whatever fresh seo blogspam exists
<zid>
We've sort of.. forked the web to discord, but we have no google for discord yet
<zid>
it's more like 1996 where you had to bookmark all the sites you were interested in
<zid>
and they had actual humans moderating them not social media executives
<heat>
we need google plus back
<heat>
that's exactly what we're missing
<GeDaMo>
What about Google minus? Minus all the crap they added in the last twenty years :P
<heat>
yeah, like staplers
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<bnchs>
osdev
<heat>
hi! sorry but that's offtopic here
<bnchs>
okay how about complaining about languages, or petting
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<heat>
ChadGPT, linux has new patches on -next to make a bunch of different types of page faults not grab the mmap lock
<heat>
so it should SCALE
<heat>
or as you would put it, it should get UNPESSIMIZED
<ChadGPT>
what locks *does* it take tho mofer
<ChadGPT>
for example freebsd has patches to skip some of the "mmap" locks as well for almost a decade
<ChadGPT>
and manages to suck anyway
<ChadGPT>
so ya know
<ChadGPT>
were.da.thread
<heat>
it takes a per-vma lock
<heat>
i don't know where "da thread" is but "da thread" i saw (that adds on top of this) is "[PATCH 0/6] Avoid the mmap lock for fault-around" by willy
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<ChadGPT>
> Several people have volunteered to run benchmarks on this, so I haven't.
<heat>
ah, the original thread should be named around "[PATCH v2 00/33] Per-VMA locks" (by suren) so search on lore.kernel.org for that
<ChadGPT>
> Apps with high number of threads (~100) launch times improve by up to 20%.
<ChadGPT>
llvm devs may try to use it as an argument for not regularing thread count
<ChadGPT>
that said solid win, but would be nice to see a fg
<heat>
hide it from maskray :P
<ChadGPT>
some guy claims windows is doing better here
<ChadGPT>
for real
<ChadGPT>
genuinely curious whaht's going on there
<ChadGPT>
personally i don't believe the guy
<heat>
i'd like to see a will-it-scale on the patch set cuz i assume the gains on a stupid synthetic bench are going to be even better than an android 8-core app launch thingy
<ChadGPT>
> Mold works great when compiling for a single target binary, but when we do a complete build repo wide (ninja with no target), things start to grind to a halt toward the end of the build when concurrent linking is occurring
<ChadGPT>
mold is a linekr written by the same person who worked on threading for lld
<ChadGPT>
and is apparently similarly threadspawn-prone
<ChadGPT>
and who fucking knew, when you spawn a bunch of them perf goes to shit
<heat>
yes
<heat>
the standard way to handle this in big projects is to create a job pool for linker stuff
<geist>
wait who is ChadGPT
<heat>
it's matthew garrett
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<ChadGPT>
must be a solaris lover
<heat>
famous linux developer
<ChadGPT>
given his t-shirt
<geist>
oh. okay that makes sense. kinda confusing
<heat>
yes
<heat>
it is
<ChadGPT>
i like that it was not obvious though
<ChadGPT>
apparently i'm not *that* singleminded
<heat>
it's very clear from the conversation and the way you type
<ChadGPT>
see above
<geist>
well, i was just reading backlog and suddenly chadgpt was there as if they owned the place, so i assumed it was someone regular
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<mjg>
pessimal
mjg is now known as heat
<ChadGPT>
:)
<pog>
:)
<heat>
it's incredibly bizarre that IRC lets you effectively impersonate a registered nick
<ChadGPT>
nick registeratino et al is a 3rd party addition so to speak
<ChadGPT>
not an integral part of the protocol
<ChadGPT>
irc is just a product of its time
<heat>
yea but what's the point of registering nicks if I can switch to yours and start speaking like I was you
<heat>
sure, maybe some stuff in the whois isn't yours. doesn't change the end result
<Ermine>
pog: may I pet you
<ChadGPT>
heat: it is most definitely not optimal
<ChadGPT>
that is to say i'm not supporting it, just giving some background how this happens
<pog>
Ermine: yes
<heat>
anyway, as I was saying: big projects usually already need to handle this due to LTO linking
<ChadGPT>
i have no idea how (un)easy would it be to sort it out
* Ermine
pets pog
* pog
prrr
<heat>
even if you --threads=1 on your LDFLAGS for all eternity, as soon as you enable LTO you start having serious difficulties doing concurrent linking
<ChadGPT>
i'm awre, i commented on it as well
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<ChadGPT>
the notion that an embarassingly parallel thingy should blindly spawn $BIGNUM of threads is most *pessimal*
<ChadGPT>
one step at a time
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<ChadGPT>
i would rename myself to heat and say sortix > onyx, but i'm on a different channel on this network, so...
<ChadGPT>
pretend i did it
<Ermine>
heat: maybe some chan mode can prevent imposters from posting?
<nortti>
oh, os is heat
<heat>
huh?
<nortti>
*so
<nortti>
< ChadGPT> i would rename myself to heat and say sortix > onyx, but i'm on a different channel on this network, so...
<heat>
yeah i just switched my name temporarily on like 10 channels
<ChadGPT>
that is very inconsiderate
<heat>
boohoo cry boomers move to discord
<ChadGPT>
millenial, thank you very much
<ChadGPT>
btw heat, do you know what does not scale? ctfmerge from SOLARIS
<ChadGPT>
used for dtrace
<ChadGPT>
works over the freebsd kernel in 12 seconds with 230% cpu usage
<ChadGPT>
accounting for ~23% of total build time
<heat>
what's ctfmerge?
<heat>
i saw it in buildkernel but have 0 clue
<ChadGPT>
DTRACE MOTHERF^Whas a special machinery for managing c types
<ChadGPT>
as in struct layout
<ChadGPT>
thanks to that you can for example pretty print
<ChadGPT>
figuring out what's up with the slowdown may be a nice little project
<heat>
you're not baiting me into sysctl levels of depression again
<ChadGPT>
(:
<heat>
anyway linuks does it with cpp warcrimes
<ChadGPT>
solaris code is normally a pleasant read, assuming you are oblivious to performance realities
<heat>
i looked at their trace event macro thing and mang that was confusing
<geist>
oh no not again
<ChadGPT>
aight
<ChadGPT>
geist: does fuchsia have regression tests for the scheduler? and if so, are they usable on not-fuchsia?
<geist>
yes and probably not
<ChadGPT>
:)
<heat>
tbf a good few tests are mostly posix
<ChadGPT>
can you point me at the tpath
<geist>
i get the sense that you dont actually care about the answer
<ChadGPT>
what?
<geist>
i can no longer trust that you are actually serious or not
<geist>
at least this morning, 10 minutes after i woke up.
<ChadGPT>
one open source project over there is an active discussion about a scheduler
<geist>
over there?
<ChadGPT>
with several long standing issues reported against it
<ChadGPT>
s/there//
<ChadGPT>
i wnated to patch it up for experimental purposes, but lack of a test suite makes it quite a problem
<geist>
ah
<heat>
do yall have good tracing on the scheduler?
<heat>
that's probably like step 1
<ChadGPT>
i checked what linux folks do when they patch cfs
<ChadGPT>
... they run hackbench and similar
<geist>
'build linux' heh
<heat>
they run a bunch of stuff sometimes yes
<ChadGPT>
which i'm afarid is not what i'm looking for
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<heat>
regressions are found by RUNNING THINGS
<heat>
so if you can get some freebsd users you're probably in for a treat
<ChadGPT>
i love running things. how about a list of things which are known to stress the scheduler in *different* ways
<geist>
we have a bunch of built in unit tests for the scheduler, then there's a lot of microbenchmarks and overall benchmarks that we look for regressions
<ChadGPT>
if you just random stuff, you are very well just testing the *same* behavior
<ChadGPT>
which does not help
<geist>
there are some user space tests that look for scheduler regressions for sure
<ChadGPT>
so show me where, i'll take a look
<heat>
you also want to run multiple tests at once probably
<geist>
i honestly dont know
<ChadGPT>
maybe they can be stolen
<ChadGPT>
heat: see my previous remark
<geist>
or at least i can look, but i have a meeting in about 3 minutes
<heat>
yeah but like, getting this operational and running it over freebsd commits (and crying to the mailing list on regressions) is probably step 1
<heat>
step 2 would be getting some more realistic workloads, step 3 would be getting people to try your shtuff out and complain on the ML for regressions
<ChadGPT>
i do agree this would be usable
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<ChadGPT>
i don't necessarily agree it tests the stuff people compplain about
<ChadGPT>
and iwas hoping for more of it, without having to ocde it up
<ChadGPT>
oreven come up with it myself
<heat>
step 1 would probably be super helpful to you for all sorts of scalability stuff, and I assume a bunch of scheduler regressions may be visible on a bunch of tests
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<ChadGPT>
again probably worthwhile in general, but not necessarily worth the effort for the problem at hand
<ChadGPT>
what would be worth the effort is a suite which guarantees stressing conflicting requirements
<ChadGPT>
which would be my prio if one was to be found
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<sortie>
ChadGPT, please present your protective MBR for inspection
<heat>
chatgpt is going to get a netflix special if it keeps this up
<GeDaMo>
You're assuming it doesn't already have one :|
<heat>
i was expecting the south park chatgpt episode to have some meta-joke where it would all be written by chatgpt
<heat>
i was seriously disappointed
<ChadGPT>
you watch south park?
<heat>
yes
<ChadGPT>
interesting
<ChadGPT>
i thought that would be millenial
<nortti>
it's still going, somehow, so I don't think it's that weird that younger ppl also watch it
<ChadGPT>
's what i'm saying :)
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<kof123>
i skimmed the paper heat linked other day. it quotes linus saying they dont/didnt want a pluggable scheduler, so i believe that portion they didnt even try to get upstream
<heat>
yes
<heat>
but now upstream wants a scheduling class for schedulers written in ebpf sooooooooooooooooooooo
<kof123>
^^^ funny. it does seem to have an API, i wonder if someone could make something "compatible" for elsewhere besides linux
<kof123>
more interesting to me, is even with the abstraction, i believe it claims less lines of code for all their samples versus the original
<kof123>
may not be 1:1, but a nice example that abstraction can actually be less "bloat" sometimes (versus everyone for themself, repeating things)
<kof123>
*each of their samples
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<kof123>
if you have a few x, abstracting is bloat. if you have more than a few ...maybe other way around
<heat>
it's also very probable that they do not implement all the bells and whistles that the actual scheduler does
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<kof123>
im not sure i follow the application level. kernel can use one scheduler, a cgroup can use another, a process can user another (for threads?)
<kof123>
so you have maybe 3 levels, each could be using different?
<heat>
what application level?
<kof123>
it mentions per-application policies
<heat>
i think the general idea is that you as the sysadmin would use scheduler X if it worked better for your workflow, or scheduler Y, or whatever
<heat>
cuz I don't see how "each process uses a new scheduler" could work, really
<ChadGPT>
each process knows best how much cpu it needs, so it calls yield as appropriate
<ChadGPT>
past that gtfo
<ChadGPT>
give me moneyz
<heat>
unless you'd use some POSIX SCHED_*-type composure, but I don't know how well the many schedulers could interact
<kof123>
ok, that makes sense.
<ChadGPT>
use cooperative multitasking
<heat>
just use a single thread, single core
<heat>
reject modernity
<ChadGPT>
TEMPLEOS
<heat>
did templeos not have threads?
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<ChadGPT>
i don't know what it had
<ChadGPT>
it did not have rings
<ChadGPT>
and i strongly suspect it had voluntary yielding only
<kof123>
i think that video he tries to say maybe for games they'd each implement their own...so yeah
<bslsk05>
docs.google.com: Untitled spreadsheet - Google Drive
<ChadGPT>
that one? i'm gonna have to check later
<ChadGPT>
the cpu was supre primitive afair
<ChadGPT>
wait that's memory footprint?
<heat>
no, runtime
<heat>
SUnreclaim and SReclaimable rows have the memory footprint
<heat>
there are funny regressions that only pop up on amd or intel or arm
<heat>
cpu caches and atomics are funny
<ChadGPT>
so here is a funny project
<ChadGPT>
one can note there are slabs which are guaranteed to only ever be used from *NOT* interrupt context
<ChadGPT>
consequently the allocation fast path for those does not have fuck with irq disablement or atomics
<ChadGPT>
one frequently used cache like that is the namei one
<ChadGPT>
for path lookups
<ChadGPT>
albeit i have no idea how linux folk would react to that one
<ChadGPT>
when i had a look during the zero on alloc debacle i found a lot bsdesque slowness
<ChadGPT>
as in shit which does not have to be there
<heat>
badly
<heat>
you either write new kmallocs for that shit with whole separate codepaths (death by fire) or you add a new flag and probably kill any possible perf gain right away (death by drowning)
<ChadGPT>
i'm not in the mood ot get into that one
<ChadGPT>
one funny note tho is that there were people asking on the lists how come the namei zone is not excluded as is
<ChadGPT>
from the mandatory zeroing
<ChadGPT>
even from G
<ChadGPT>
that was funny
<heat>
so, lets zero all the allocs, except on those caches i really use
<heat>
...
<ChadGPT>
you got some geezer mindset right ther mate, but we covered this last time
<heat>
yeah totally man we should selectively disable hardening measures
<ChadGPT>
:)
<ChadGPT>
i'm going to leave it at that
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<ChadGPT>
good news, i prodded bsd make person about ninja-compatible log
<heat>
new linux ASAN builds will disable KASAN under all of kernel/ due to performance complaints
<ChadGPT>
and the work is in progress
<ChadGPT>
mate, i'm done with that subject, freel free to have whatever opinion you want
<heat>
it's all about tradeoffs man
<ChadGPT>
as i said
<ChadGPT>
back to tracin' the builds
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<ChadGPT>
my toy variant already found funny problems and once more showcased the importance of checking what happened instead of handwaving
<ChadGPT>
i had a suspicion what the problem is and it turned out to be bogus
<ChadGPT>
thankfully i'm the profiling type
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