klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<ChadGPT> heat: i hear you are looking for pickup lines?
<heat> genius
<heat> i'll become a tech recruiter and ask chatgpt for racist pickup lines as well
<ChadGPT> you reminded me of something
<ChadGPT> hrmpf does not show up on g
<ChadGPT> maybe i have racist filter
<ChadGPT> anyhow, there was a company shit-generating t-shirts with last names and harassing peope on facebook
<ChadGPT> with targeted advert
<ChadGPT> there this White family
<ChadGPT> was
<ChadGPT> they got proposed shirts like "Just White things"
<heat> haha
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<gog> hi
<heat> hi
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
<slidercrank> gog, got new games?
<gog> Ermine: yes
<gog> slidercrank: no, only good old ones
<slidercrank> nice
* Ermine pets gog
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* gog prr
<gog> i'm an average developer
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<heat> being average is pretty decent
<gog> i want to be a better developer
<gog> but i think i have a critical deficiency in that i'm very stupid
<gog> also it's the day before a holiday and i've done a lot this week and i don't really want to apply myself anymore
<gog> altho the other developer and the CEO both told me i do a good job today
<gog> so
<gog> imposter syndrome has to set in behind that
<heat> see that's good
<heat> maybe you're a good developer
<heat> i certainly think so
<gog> i have certain qualities and attitudes that make me occasionally very good at my job. i just wish i was more consisently insightful becuase idk how to solve this problem that's in front of me rn
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<gog> maybe i'll do pen and paper things for a bit and see what i figure out
<sham1> You can't always have the answers. And sometimes, even if you do everything correctly you may still fail. That is not a weakness, that is life
<ChadGPT> i got bad news gog
<ChadGPT> "you doin' great" and similar is standard management speak, at best it means nothing
<heat> ... positive as always
<ChadGPT> mat,e i have been at this shite more almost as long as you have been alive to begin with
<sham1> Very. That's a silly attitude to take
<heat> thank god you don't work at a suicide hotline
<ChadGPT> praise is zero cost and at best means nothing. you know how much you are valued or not by $$
<ChadGPT> at the same time pats on the back or calling you a rockstar are just empty gestures if not paired with $$
<ChadGPT> taking a manager statement literally is one silly attitude right there
<ChadGPT> sham1: when a manager thanks everyone for a productive meeting, do you think the meeting was in fact productive by their assesment? :]
<sham1> Well I'd say "no" just due to the very nature of meetings themselves being inefficient
<ChadGPT> here is a funny example for you whicn i remember i already shared on this channel
<ChadGPT> dude which was ok on competency scale had the lowest salary in the team by a large margin
<ChadGPT> he got a quarterly award for some bullshit
<heat> when your wife says she loves you, is it valuable or a meaningless gesture?
<ChadGPT> which amounts for monopoly money
<ChadGPT> he asked for a raise, was told no
<ChadGPT> there you go, worthy of getting an award and a pat on the back, not worthy of earning at the same level as the rest of the team
<ChadGPT> heat: that's some mental gimnasticks you got going right there
<heat> it's an extreme example to basically say "not everyone is manipulative"
<gog> i did get a raise actually
<ChadGPT> you missed the part where this is a fundamentally different relationship
<ChadGPT> gog: there you go, in that case good for you
<ChadGPT> it did meansomething
<heat> not everyone is out to fuck you
<ChadGPT> of course not
<ChadGPT> i am saying that management gestures not backed by $$ are there to placate you
<ChadGPT> and they are common
<ChadGPT> here is another funny example
<ChadGPT> dude asked for a raise in february, was told to ask again in april
<ChadGPT> the entire got sacked in march
<ChadGPT> team*
<heat> ok, what does that matter?
<ChadGPT> whatever, i'm done with the subject
<heat> options: 1) corp was already in some deep shit in feb, did not think they would go into deeper shit so "yeah whatvs ask l8er" 2) the manager was the coldest hearted cunt ever
<ChadGPT> the corp was ont in big shit
<ChadGPT> they were marked for being sacked already
<ChadGPT> manager did not want to let the guy know most likely to cover his own ass
<ChadGPT> as in was not allowed to reveal the info at the time
<ChadGPT> managers are mostly talking heads for upper layers, they act like that out of self preservatin
<ChadGPT> here is another example for you
<ChadGPT> a manager who was friends with my deskmate told my deskmate that $idea is nonsense, but nothing can be done, upper mgmt is pushing for it
<ChadGPT> the same managre told me that the idea is fucking great
<ChadGPT> :]
<ChadGPT> in general trusting management is such a naive take i don't even know how to express it
<ChadGPT> perhaps you are the sort who thinks that "open door policy" at a workplace means you are free to express your criticism
<gog> the only response i have to that is that the company i work for is very, very small and that we don't have the sort of stereotypical corporate culture that lends itself to platitudes or unproductive interactions like that
<gog> also i figured out the problem
<gog> i think
<gog> yep
<ChadGPT> do you do webdev in RUST?
<gog> our backend is C# :Z
<gog> asp.net
<gog> which is fine i guess
<gog> this product predates everybody who actually works on it now so we can't exactly just do something better
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<ChadGPT> :)
<ChadGPT> this is precisely why you *can* provided some other conditions are met
<gog> we don't have a big enough team for that
<gog> not unless there's some sales frontend we can adapt easily
<gog> there are three programmers, one of them is the CTO who is pulling double-duty as our devops engineer
<gog> then me and a contractor who works remotely
<gog> we're fighting tech debt AND the features the board and the CEO want to see
<gog> there's too much momentum with the old product and not enough energy to get a matching momentum on a new product
<gog> i would love to rip the guts out of our sales frontend and fix it for good because it's bad
<gog> but the business side of that is we'd have to convince the board it's worth the time and money
<gog> we can overcome the technical challenge we have without a totally new codebase, but the consequence of that is we have a product that gets more unstable over time
<gog> maybe there's a balancing point where the cost is worth it
<gog> but we're not there yet
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<ChadGPT> sounds like you should be slowly planning an exit
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<gog> i check listings about once a week, but despite the problems we have with our product i really like this company and we do good business
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<gog> with our expansion into new markets we'll probably have to take a serious look at what we're doing tho. i think it'll happen
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<gog> if not, then yeah
<ChadGPT> key is to make sure you don't get burned out
<ChadGPT> dealing with too much crap for too long will do it for you
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<gog> new
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<Ermine> Mew *mew = new mew();
<gog> auto mew
<gog> this is the 21st century
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<heat> auto mew = make_unique<Mew>();
<heat> ftfy
<ChadGPT> let mew;
<ChadGPT> there it is actually fixed
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<sham1> Mew mew = new Mew();
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<FireFly> let's mew;
<ChadGPT> pew pew = pew();
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<heat> ChadGPT, is pre-release gcc stable enough? from yer experiences at rh
<zid`> yes in the general case, no in the absolute case, imo
<heat> unless you fucks didn't do the super early pre-release gcc on fedora yet
<zid`> like, I wouldn't wanna build my entire system with a pre-gcc
<zid`> but any random package will work
<heat> the thing is that fedora does do that, at least now
<zid`> (There's always a bunch of bugs in random packages)
<clever> i have no idea how, but upgrading to a cpu with 4x as many cores, has made my desktop ungodly slow
<heat> fedora 38 is doing gcc 13 atm
<heat> it's super tempting to fuck around and use gcc13 but otoh, i don't have a toolchain team (except me)
<heat> it's exactly like google where they use stupidly bleeding edge llvm for everything
<heat> they roll like every week or every 2 weeks or whatnot
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<zid`> Well that's a fun new failure mode for my monitor
<zid`> It somehow managed to look like it had convergence issues
<ChadGPT> heat: no experience
<ChadGPT> heat: i was not dealing with userspace
<clever> zid`: ive had the red channel entirely die, locked to around 50%
<clever> changing the vsync rate fixed it
<zid`> that's boring
<zid`> I had blurry text toward the edges only
<zid`> on an LCD
<clever> that is weird
<zid`> like my pixel clock was drifting out of phase maybe?
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<clever> but with hdmi/dvi, that shouldnt really matter
<clever> the monitor knows when ever single pixel starts/ends
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<zid`> it's post processing the input and stuff
<zid`> and merging the OSD
<zid`> blah blah
<heat> glhf
<bslsk05> ​lists.freebsd.org: HPC with ULE vs 4BSD
<ChadGPT> ULE --> 546.99 real 0.02 user 0.03 sys
<ChadGPT> 4BSD -> 218.96 real 0.03 user 0.02 sys
<ChadGPT> and so on
<heat> broooooooooooooooo but mckusick said otherwise
<ChadGPT> oh in that cae the result is bogus
<zid`> result is boggles
<heat> ChadGPT, paper/presentation when??
<heat> how freebsd sucks and is bad (also solaris) - mateusz mcpessimal
<ChadGPT> handle nationalities right
<ChadGPT> that would be pessimalski
<ChadGPT> i'm not irish
<ChadGPT> mofer
<heat> neither is mckusick mofer
<ChadGPT> i'm not mcwhateverthefuck
<heat> i would expect a suspicious "W" and some sz on that last name
<ChadGPT> 's what i'm saying
<ChadGPT> btw what's the 'john smith' of portugal
<heat> hmm
<heat> joão silva probably
<heat> in any case the full polish experience has to have some weird looking letters, lots of consonants and a w no one knows how to pronounce
<heat> also accents on fucking consonants too
<heat> Świątek is the ezest example although it's missing the szszszsz party
<heat> ChadGPT, https://i.imgur.com/XQm7bZN.png aww jeez really
<ChadGPT> brzęczyszykiewicz
<ChadGPT> i'm afraid the john smith is jan kowalksi
<ChadGPT> kowalski
<heat> isn't that the madagascar pengiun
<heat> penguin*
<bslsk05> ​'Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz (HD)' by trouchelle (00:01:20)
<ChadGPT> btw
<ChadGPT> 4bsd result has CPU: 45.4% user, 0.0% nice, 54.5% system, 0.1% interrupt, 0.0% idle
<ChadGPT> 54.5% system
<ChadGPT> lol
<ChadGPT> and still got faster
<ChadGPT> s/got/finished/
<heat> let me guess, make buildkernel
<ChadGPT> that's from the url above mofer
<ChadGPT> openmpi
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<heat> ah ok, i wasn't seeing you run anything other than will-it-scale and buildkernel
<ChadGPT> lol
<ChadGPT> how out postgres
<ChadGPT> or buildworld!
<heat> i'm fairly sure you'll die from internal organ failure
<ChadGPT> i'm afraid i did bench some postgres and it was ont good freebsd
<ChadGPT> ... or ule
<ChadGPT> for freebsd or ule; ffs
<ChadGPT> heat: kern.elf64.aslr.pie_enable=0
<ChadGPT> kern.elf64.aslr.enable=0
<ChadGPT> shit
<bslsk05> ​lists.freebsd.org: Re: ULE process to resolution
<heat> are you trying to scare me with kern_sysctl
<ChadGPT> yep
<ChadGPT> anyhow ule makes both postgres and pgbench walk all around existing cpus
<heat> you can't go an email without mentioning anton blanchard's masterpiece
<heat> memset(buf, 0, size); <-- explicit_bzero dawg
<ChadGPT> -O0 mate
<ChadGPT> really tho both suck here
<heat> C23 also grew memset_explicit
<ChadGPT> what really works for trhe purpose is hand-coded one byte loop + -O0
<ChadGPT> point being to make sure these stores do happen and nobody gets an idea to make them non-temporal
<ChadGPT> so no calls to subrs
<ChadGPT> anyhow, the breakage is there since the early days of the thing
<heat> if this sucks so bad why does it exist
<ChadGPT> bra
<ChadGPT> h
<ChadGPT> why does openbsd exist
<ChadGPT> they have it much worse
<ChadGPT> didy ou know netbsd had a funny bug where they would fail to distribute work
<ChadGPT> poor guy had a 2 core vm doing computational work in 2 threads
<ChadGPT> .. both eating one cpu
<ChadGPT> with the scheduler refusing to use the other one
<ChadGPT> all in all, did i mention that you can't trust papers?
<ChadGPT> it's all greatest shit ever, totally trust me bro
<heat> the question is "if this sucks so bad why does it still exist", which you did not answer
<heat> at the very least, why does it exist in its current form for almost 20 years
<ChadGPT> i hinted at the answer
<ChadGPT> everything you are using has massive breakage all over
<ChadGPT> including linux
<ChadGPT> it does happen to mostly work for most people
<ChadGPT> people only realize something is wrong when stuff grinds to a halt
<ChadGPT> or they happen to measure
<ChadGPT> the latter is particularly rare
<heat> i severely doubt current cfs has regressions over 2003 schedulers
<ChadGPT> i guarantee it has some
<ChadGPT> but definitely less basic than the above
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<ChadGPT> that said, 1. scheduling is hard 2. don't trust geezers 3. did i mention to not trust geezers?
* moon-child looks suspiciously at geezer
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<zid`> heat: It 100% does
<zid`> because there are just workloads that make no sense
<zid`> that nobody should ever optimize for
<heat> ChadGPT, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRJWS9_cEUU are bsdcan talks recorded on a murder mystery series' security camera
<bslsk05> ​'Brooks Davis: Is it time to replace mmap -- BSDCan 2018' by BSDCan (00:47:46)
<ChadGPT> looks like ghost husting for me
<ChadGPT> maybe too grey
<ChadGPT> hunting
<heat> next bsdcan should be in tiktok format
<ChadGPT> on the general 'do not trust geezers note', i would not watch any of these videos
<ChadGPT> here is a funny example of a unix geezer stating a bogosity which one may easily believe if they don't know any better
<ChadGPT> person claimed that when in userspace running some binary, perf is only related to what the binary is doing
<ChadGPT> it is the binary and the cpu
<ChadGPT> [for those who don't know, such a process can be influenced as follows: 1. moved around by the scheduler 2. have (or not) hugepages 3. libc may or may not be shafting it with crap routines ... and so on]
<kof123> skimming the recent thread and month before...there is a limited number of ppl who have the skillset to fix something too
<kof123> you can report problems all day long...someone has to show up who is qualified
<ChadGPT> some of these should have *never* happened
<ChadGPT> the nice bug is from a change which claimed to help stuff
<ChadGPT> it clearly did not receive sensible testing before landing
<ChadGPT> shit happens, everyone has patches like that
<ChadGPT> but it does strenghten my position that you should not take perf claims at face value
<ChadGPT> the author would have you believe the patch was $$
<ChadGPT> well let me restate. with sensible testing it would never happen, but in the real world everyone got total bullshit landing at osme point
<ChadGPT> the more judgment-impaired you are when writing the patch, the more likely you are to also commit
<ChadGPT> not funny how that works
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