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<Reinhilde>
heat__: emulating Linux API semantics is necessary as most Unix software is designed and hacked on Linux exclusively
<klange>
One of the best parts about the existence of macOS as a widespread commercial certified Unix implementation is being able to point to it when someone makes the mistake of assuming Linux behavior.
<klange>
BSDs can be brushed off for lack of use, but swarms of developers with company-issued Macs are harder to ignore.
<Reinhilde>
blegh.
heat__ is now known as heat
<heat>
klange, macOS is not even properly POSIX compliant, their test suites suck
<heat>
anyway, i'm not saying the linux behavior is bad here, i'm just astonished at the blatant lack of care for looking at GPL code
<klange>
Unix certification does seem to be more a matter of who will pay Open Group, rather than actual compliance with the spec.
<Reinhilde>
I would be interested in (and terrified by) evidence that GPL code is being derived from
<heat>
I don't know if its being derived from, because IANAL
<heat>
but they certainly did look at it
<heat>
such that they perfectly emulated the semantics of an obscure API that is not formally documented anywhere
<zid`>
Patch 0/20: Steal kcov
<Reinhilde>
should I pull a Dillon
<heat>
what's pulling a dillon?
<heat>
writing your own shitty BSD-derived system?
<heat>
or it sexual? I think it may be sexual
<zid`>
I am sexual
<heat>
hot
<kazinsal>
hot single osdevvers in your area!
<Reinhilde>
heat: own BSD fork
<Reinhilde>
shittiness being in the eyes, ears and minds of beholders
<heat>
"The patch is modeled after the analogous commit to the Linux kernel, which can be viewed here: https://lwn.net/Articles/671640/"
<Reinhilde>
suggest on the ML that the patch should be backed out
<heat>
this has been long merged
<heat>
for 5 years almost
<Reinhilde>
oh
<kazinsal>
there's something to be said about the infinite monkeys at a typewriter theorem as applied to there only being a few ways to implement any given unix thing
<Reinhilde>
which BSD do you accuse heat? F?
<heat>
all of them
<heat>
they all got the exact same API with the exact same semantics
<geist>
a wide net, bold move heat
<heat>
a wide net-bsd
<heat>
haha
<Reinhilde>
exemplar?
<geist>
you're really keeping your options.. open
<kazinsal>
APIs aren't intellectual property and nobody patented kcov
<Reinhilde>
kazinsal: the allegation is that kcov was C-c C-v'd from torvaldix
<heat>
it is not
<geist>
you should really shine some light on it
<Reinhilde>
[i could have sworn that was the allegation]
<geist>
as bright as the... sunos
* Reinhilde
groan
<heat>
the allegation is that they went around and looked a lot at linux kcov.c and then wrote their own thing with the exact same API, and similarish code
<kazinsal>
I think that's just called free software dude
<heat>
are you sure this is legal?
<geist>
wait there's some sort of argument on the internet? no way
<Reinhilde>
sure, if fbsd evicts zfs and dtrace
<Reinhilde>
that won't soon happen
<heat>
huh?
<kazinsal>
I don't think there's case law precedent for this other than the "APIs aren't intellectual property and thus cannot be subject to copyright but *can* be subject to patents" ruling a few years ago
<Reinhilde>
I usually wait a minimum of 4 months for my brain to degauss after reading too much GPL shitware
<geist>
you can pick up the phone and make a call to discuss it, over AT&T phone lines
<Reinhilde>
sometimes I don't
<kazinsal>
as far as I know nobody has tried the "looking at GPL code makes your own code GPL" argument in court
<Reinhilde>
I am not proud of those times
<Reinhilde>
kazinsal: "overfitting"
<kazinsal>
it's much less of a likely scenario than, say, the fact that basically none of us here will ever look at source code leaks because that *is* a massive legal snafu that we don't want to involve ourselves in
<Reinhilde>
yis
<geist>
yah i think a lot of that is more like do you want to be grilled by lawyers
<kazinsal>
I don't EVER want to look at something that has "MICROSOFT CONFIDENTIAL" in the file header
<geist>
ie, if you never looked at it you can legit say you never saw it
<kazinsal>
but I'll read LXR to try to figure out how some weird bit of a NIC driver works
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<Reinhilde>
lxr?
<kazinsal>
Linux Cross-Reference
<Reinhilde>
ah
<geist>
yah i was instantly thinking XLR
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<kazinsal>
yelling "HOW DO PACKETS" at a mixing console to no end
* geist
pats their trusty SM57
<Reinhilde>
... I did something similar with the intel mwait driver when trying to understand a power virus on (free|hardened)BSD
<kazinsal>
hell yeah sm57 buddy
<geist>
oh wit, SM58
<geist>
but i have a 58 somewhere in a box
<geist>
er 57
<geist>
the like 5 times in the year i discord with someone they say my audio is fantastic
<kazinsal>
originally I had bought a 57 for doing guitar stuff but then I ended up buying an IR box so I could avoid getting evicted while having the mesa cranked up
<Reinhilde>
beep
<kazinsal>
so instead the 57 goes into a mixer and then into a sound blaster
<Reinhilde>
blound saster
<geist>
yah my big amp has some sort of post-speaker DI output, with the idea that it gets the gist of the speaker
<geist>
though i doubt it. but i end up using my old line 6 pedalboard more than anything else
<geist>
which is already now 'retro' because all the cool kids just use plugins
* Reinhilde
solders geist's microphone to a hybrid
<Reinhilde>
(?)
<kazinsal>
yeah I've got one of the mesa boogie cabclone IRs so it's got a bunch of official cab IRs of different mesa cabs
<kazinsal>
at some point I'm gonna end up buying more amp heads I'm sure
<geist>
yah precisely. this is a dv mark cab, but the amp head has the DI output
<Reinhilde>
i just have a shitty stereo, shitty usb mic and use my computers' shitty onboard audio
<geist>
but i think as is usual the point is you still run it through the cabinet first
<kazinsal>
the thing can eat up to 150W so you can jam a whole ass triple rectifier into it
<geist>
also yay i just finished my taxes this year. so now i can drink
<kazinsal>
hooray! think I ended up getting a refund of like, a hundred bucks this year
<kazinsal>
payroll messed up my deductions throughout the year as usual but my retirement contributions always null that out
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<zid`>
mesa boogie? the discworld character?
<zid`>
wow you literally get two results on google for that
<zid`>
I assume he's named for the amp then
<Reinhilde>
googlewhack
<zid`>
you can't googlewhack anymore
<zid`>
google removed that feature like 15 years ago
<Reinhilde>
>literally two results
<kazinsal>
yeah, mesa boogie is a brand of somewhat-boutique amplifiers that basically reinvented metal guitar tone in the 80s and onwards
<Reinhilde>
not far from a googlewhack
<zid`>
a googlewhack is one result, and the literal was figurative because I meant "real results"
<kazinsal>
ironically after being popularized by carlos santana in the early 70s
<zid`>
rather than "results google inserted by changing all the words to other words with awful ML"
<zid`>
google also collapses 'similar results' away, and indexes trash pages like word dumps, which afaik it never used to
<Reinhilde>
I've actually had duckwhacks (if n(whack) = less than 2 pages) relatively recently while trying to discover obscure information
<zid`>
until cuil boasted they indexed more pages than google
<kazinsal>
indexing anything that resolves to wildcard DNS should probably be a no-go but y'know, ad money
<zid`>
yea google doesn't really give a shit about the search aspect of their business anymore, it's no longer core
<zid`>
the ads are core
<Reinhilde>
hm
<heat>
linux kernal
<Reinhilde>
i mean i could see wildcard DNS still being needed
<Reinhilde>
lanrek xunil
<heat>
why do u use frebsdm
<zid`>
to be contrary, obviously
<Reinhilde>
it brains better than linux in most cases
<Reinhilde>
IT BEHAVES IN WAYS THAT ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE
<kazinsal>
my firewall at home is an openbsd machine
<heat>
linux behaves better than bsd
<heat>
fact
<kazinsal>
I like openbsd for laying minefields for people who say "just make it work"
<kazinsal>
because I know I can "just make it work"
<Reinhilde>
citation needed heat
<kazinsal>
it's gonna be something nobody can ever maintain
<kazinsal>
but it'll work.
<heat>
Reinhilde: linux behaves better than bsd - warmth 2023
<Reinhilde>
unfortunately that sense comes at prices I am not always willing to pay, like virtualization edge roughness
<Reinhilde>
or only WiFi 4
<Reinhilde>
but where it is not a problem, well
<kazinsal>
a few years ago I was told "just make it work" to make docker to LDAP stuff work in a case where a hasty acquisition resulted in multiply-overlapping subnets and so there is a former client of mine out there that has a load bearing openbsd VM doing relayd in like, 128 megs of RAM
<kazinsal>
"just make it work" is a dangerous phrase.
<Reinhilde>
kazin malicious compliance sal
<kazinsal>
quick, cheap, properly done: choose two
<Reinhilde>
why only a gigabit(!) of RAM?
<kazinsal>
two reasons
<Reinhilde>
that all it needs?
<kazinsal>
one, the client was cheap and overprovisioning a lot of their shit even though part of my contract to them was to get them to not overprovision their shit
<kazinsal>
two, I knew I could make it work in 128 megs
<Reinhilde>
😅
<Reinhilde>
( :'D )
<kazinsal>
again, it was "just make it work" with a severity 1 priority
<kazinsal>
so I just made it work.
<Ermine>
heat: nice move
<heat>
what move
<heat>
are we playing chess
<Ermine>
citiation needed - format your previous message as citiation
<heat>
thank you, i'm a genius and I quote myself
<Ermine>
- Pedro Falcato, 2023
<heat>
- Ermine, 2013
<Ermine>
now my heated take: both are misbehaving - stoat 2023
<heat>
everything sux
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<zid`>
heat play me at shogi
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<ddevault>
Ermine: the whole thing is written in hare
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<ddevault>
kernel, drivers, shell, etc
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<gog`>
hi
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<geist>
a gog appears
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<gog>
need to get a new battery for my wifi hotspot lol
<gog>
it expanded in such a way that it doesn't fit in the shell and the device refuses to work without it
<geist>
huh odd it'd have some sort of intrusion detection
<geist>
maybe it causes some contact to not be made to the antennas or something?
<gog>
no, it's that the battery isn't present
<gog>
says "battery error"
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<geist>
oh oh it expanded as in its swelling up
<geist>
yah that's bad
<gog>
yeah i put it in a bag outside
<gog>
i don't want it in the house but i don't want it to get wet and short out either lol
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<MakaAlbarn>
I'M BACK! and I have a weird problem. When I try to add a new file to my kernel to initialize a buddied linked list for page frame tracking, I get some odd results. With a new file, I get intermittant GP Faults and Invalid Opcode Exceptions, but when I put the code in an already existing file, it works fine. Umm... what?
<MakaAlbarn>
for some reason, when it's in a separate file, the EIP jumps into the multiboot header for some reason.
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<MakaAlbarn>
any ideas?
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<zid`>
UB
<geist>
maybe it rearranges the link order and as a result your multiboot header moves around
<geist>
or your multiboot header is not computing its stuff correctly so as a result of things linking differently you have created a bad header
<geist>
usually for this sort of stuff i look at the final binary with a hex editor and manually verify that it is laid out properly
<geist>
like manually decode the multiboot header to see
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<MakaAlbarn>
geist: The really weird thing is that it boots. up to enabling interrupts. I can print to screen, set up paging, etc..., but when I turn on interrupts, it breaks when I have my buddy initializaiton in a separate file.
<MakaAlbarn>
and the multiboot header looks good from the hex dump.
<geist>
that doesn't really mean much to be onest. sometimes you can have an utterly broken build that boots pretty far
<geist>
you can get lucky
<geist>
this is the fun of bare metal, no safety net programming
<MakaAlbarn>
The biggest pain is that my gdb in wsl can't connect to my windows qemu, so I have no way to dig into what is actually happening
<MakaAlbarn>
I just know that it works fine when my buddy init is in an already existing file, but breaks when I put it into page_frame.cpp.
<bslsk05>
MakaAlbarn001/Starmoon-V2 - Operating System Project Version 2 (0 forks/0 stargazers)
<MakaAlbarn>
most of the settings for the build are in the root Makefile
<netbsduser`>
i would build and take a look if i had an i686 compiler sitting around but unfortunately i don't
<netbsduser`>
perhaps you are overwriting what you ought not to be overwiting when you assemble your buddy list
<netbsduser`>
i say that because the rearrangement of the code might turn a bug which doesn't trigger faulty behaviour (because it happens to overwrite e.g. code which has already executed) into one which does (because now it overwrites code which is still to be executed)
<netbsduser`>
but that's just one possibility to consider in your analysis
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<netbsduser`>
exciting news from the osdev discord, managarm can now browse the web with a webkit-based browser
<netbsduser`>
cool to see one of my favourite projects advance to this stage
<klange>
That was posted on the osdev forum two days ago.
<netbsduser`>
but i've been following the progress on this on that discord in real-time for a while now
<klange>
Dennis shared a 5GB disk image with the webkit build that I am in the process of downloading.
<klange>
I am banned from that Discord, as are several people here, so...
<netbsduser`>
i find that difficult to believe as dennis is the co-owner of it and was just chatting about his interest in toaruos and keenness to see you around there
<klange>
Well the last time I tried to join with a public invite I got the "Uh-oh, looks like you're banned." message.
<kazinsal>
I've never bothered joining it because I always felt that an osdev discord is likely to be 99% "my hello world won't boot fix it" posts
<klange>
I was there for a few days, left of my own accord, and tried joining again later to see what was happening there. Lo and behold...
<klange>
kazinsal: We used to be that way when IRC was still considered accessible to the lay developer.
<bslsk05>
redirect -> discord.com: Operating System Development
<netbsduser`>
if it isn't mr managarm himself
<netbsduser`>
or mr part-of-managarm
<MrBonkers>
I must say, as netbsduser`mentioned too, I’m quite honored that you want to test out Managarm klange
<MrBonkers>
Your project was one of the main factors that got me into this
<MrBonkers>
oh and I checked before uploading the image, we can display https://toaruos.org fine :)
<bslsk05>
toaruos.org: ToaruOS - A Hobby Operating System for x86 PCs
<klange>
I have this secret desire to port GTK to my compositor and crib off your notes, but toaru's libc ain't _quite_ as robust as mlibc :)
<MrBonkers>
It’s an interesting ride that’s for sure. It also feels really good once you have it working :). Should you ever decide to port it (or anything else) all our recipes (and patches) are of course public. Feel free to take a look around
<nortti>
is the managarm webkit port using webkitgtk?
<MrBonkers>
Yes. It’s WebKitGTK and the browser is the demo browser shipped with it, the MiniBrowser
<gog>
hi
<MrBonkers>
i fully plan on porting a different browser based on webkit eventually, or maybe retry chromium even
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<gog>
my hello world won't boot
<kazinsal>
have you tried turning it off and on again
<gog>
yes
<klange>
have you tried turning it off a-
<gog>
haha sniped'
<kazinsal>
klange: jinx
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