klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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* moon-child lisp all the way
<moon-child> well, not all the way. Part of the way. Has to share space with an apl and an ml too
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<moon-child> but lisp is much easier to do a good job of designing, so it's the only one I've implemented so far
<zid> brainfuck is easy, took me an hour to do half of it :P
<NieDzejkob_> i'd like to see you writing a kernel in brainfuck :P
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<moon-child> somebody did a compiler from a c-like language to brainfuck
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<NieDzejkob_> how do you lgdt in brainfuck (:
<Mutabah> it already is :)
<NieDzejkob_> okay then how do you read cr2
<vdamewood> klange: I'm not quite sure what you mean.
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<klange> So the historic word, つきたち - which could well be written 月立ち (the standing of the moon?) - existed in Japanese prior to the adoption of kanji. But the Chinese word was written 一日, and alongside all the other counter words for days of the month, it was adopted for meaning as a compound and the Japanese word (also a compound) was slapped on it.
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<nshp> what if you just have a real mode brainfuck interpreter which, rather than printing output, executes the output bytes
<zid> That's what I wrote yesterday, except long mode not real
<NieDzejkob_> when do you jump to the output, though?
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<vdamewood> klange: It was explained to me that it meant the month stands up, as in this is when it 'rises'.
<nshp> see, now you just have to do your real->long transition in brainfuck-generated code
<zid> It's ahead of time not just in time
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<NieDzejkob_> I believe what nshp means is that . outputs x86 opcodes instead of ASCII
<vdamewood> Maybe something like 'waxing' since the beginning of the month would have been the new moon.
<nshp> NieDzejkob_: it'd be so much easier to figure that out with a fixed-width encoding, heh
<nshp> I guess you just have to have an instruction length decoder in your real mode brainfuck interpreter
<klange> vdamewood: yeah pretty much, moon/month are the same concept here
<nshp> shouldn't be that bad in real mode, you can't use most of the fancy instructions anyway
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<NieDzejkob_> or I suppose you could repurpose , to mean call the most recent batch of output
<NieDzejkob_> and write al to the current cell
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<vdamewood> klange: But yeah, I figured that, especially with how irregular every X日 compound is pronounced with regard to days of the month. It's a mix of classical Japanese numbers, and ka/nichi.
<NieDzejkob_> so it's still input, see?
<nshp> there you go
<vdamewood> err mix of classical Japanese numbers and Sino-Japanese numbers, and ka/nichi.
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<klange> Yeah, date words are classical Japanese numbers from 2~10, and then 20 pokes in as well.
<klange> 1 is just that special word that means 'start of the month' and has no phonetic mapping to the kanji it's written with.
<vdamewood> When you study linguistic history, etymology, and conlanging, all the 'confusing' and 'irregular' stuff makes a lot of sense.
<klange> But! For extra fun, there's a Sino number reading for "first day of the month" and it's _not_ いちにち - it's いっぴ!
<vdamewood> klange: Notice my correction above?
<vdamewood> <vdamewood> Also, if you were to join ichi and hi, it would be ippi.
<klange> I once shocked a cop by giving my birthdate correctly... with an era year...
<klange> Because it's on the 20th.
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<vdamewood> Okay, I have to laugh at this. At the moment I'm listenint to a K-Pop song on YouTube. It's called 'Haru Haru' and it has subtitles in Japanese. Apparently 'Haru Haru' means '一日一日'.
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<vdamewood> s/it has subtitles//the video has subtitles/
<vdamewood> klange: You're old enough to have been born in the Shōwa era, right?
<klange> Nope, not quite that old.
<klange> I'm an early Heisei.
<vdamewood> Oh, really?
<vdamewood> I was born 昭和五十九
<zid> I am a few months too young
<vdamewood> 年
<gog> shōwa 62
<vdamewood> I have a 50 sen note tated Shōwa 18.
<vdamewood> *dated
<vdamewood> I wonder, if I get two of them, can I turn them for an ichien-dama?
<vdamewood> turn them in*
<gog> i would like to visit japan one day
<vdamewood> I would like to visit Japan for more than one day.
<vdamewood> Maybe 2, or 14.
<gog> yes
<jimbzy> I'd love to go to a Japanese baseball game. I feel like I'm getting cheated by not being able to order a bowl of noodles at the stadium.
<gog> i get the feeling that going to a ball game in japan is like what it was going to a ball game here 20 years ago
<gog> aka: not inducing you to spend literally all of your money every second
<gog> "here" she said, where there is no baseball
<gog> i mean in the US
<gog> that's why i liked minor-league games. cheaper beer :p
<jimbzy> Yeah, minor leagues and independent leagues.
<jimbzy> Bing Russell knew how to do it.
<klange> I bought a house so I could have space primarily to host friends from overseas, and then COVID happened, so now I have cats in the house instead.
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<gog> i'm vaccinated, i'm coming to stay with you
<gog> i have my shots and i'm a good kitty :3
* vdamewood gives gog a treat
<jimbzy> I got my first today and I feel perfectly Microsoft ME was the greatest operating system ever.
<vdamewood> jimbzy: You're not wrong.
<gog> oh that's the first sign of 5g vaccine syndrome
<gog> the next sign is you'll start getting really into wearing chokers
<jimbzy> Hahaha
<vdamewood> Hmm... But my friend was into wearing chokers before she got vaccinated.
<gog> early secret test subjects
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<gog> anyhow, this is why i don't argue with antivaxxers
<gog> they'll just lie some more
<jimbzy> I waited a bit because I figured the most at-risk people would get theirs first. I sure got that one wrong. :p
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<vdamewood> I got mine as soon as my state would allow me.
<klange> I made the first available appointment...
<gog> for my second go i was the last group seated on a day where they were already running 2 hours later than scheduled because everybody was trying to get it before summer holidays
<klange> ... for August 23rd.
<vdamewood> I'm very at-risk, and happy to be a beta testor.
<klange> feels bad man
<gog> klange: oof
<vdamewood> tester
<gog> currently we're having an issue of breakthrough delta-variant infections
<gog> pfizer has a 0.16% rate, janssen with 0.62%
<gog> glad i opted for pfizer :p
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<jimbzy> It's actually kind of crazy that we're given a choice.
<Izem> are application specific OSes a thing?
<gog> Izem: like embedded systems?
<moon-child> Izem: yes, see includeos
<klange> Exokernels, library OSes, etc.
<Izem> thanks
<kazinsal> also any OS that runs on high performance networking hardware
<Izem> like a switch?
<kazinsal> switches, core routers, etc
<kazinsal> I would classify Junos and IOS-XE as "application specific" considering their purpose is to drive high performance networks instead of just running whatever garbage executables the user finds on the interwebs
<gog> jimbzy: given a choice of vaccine or choosing to be vaccinated at all?
<jimbzy> Choice of vaccine.
<gog> hm
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<gog> well, in some ways i didn't really have a choice. they stopped offering AZ and Moderna to women here, and i was already iffy on janssen because it was already reported to not be as effective
<kazinsal> it was a bit bizarre when I got my first dose, the person who took my intake form at the sports-arena-turned-mass-immunization-clinic asked me if moderna was "okay"
<kazinsal> like, it doesn't matter to me, get that shit in me
<nanovad> Gotta jab em all
<kazinsal> one wonders what the response to a "no" is
<nanovad> kazinsal: "Sorry - we have pepsi if you prefer"?
<gog> if i'm going to be injected with any soda it's going to be Polar birch beer
<jimbzy> I wonder if people would act like this if they needed a tetanus booster, or a rabies regimen.
<kazinsal> I am also of the opinion that those who are unvaccinated for ideological reasons should be ostracized from society
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<kazinsal> if they want to go play antivax anarchoprimitivist they can fuck off into the trees and never be heard from again
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<gog> "ah, so you're an anprim. then tell me, what the fuck are you posting on twitter for?"
<gog> the people who claim to want to touch grass seem to not do so
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<jimbzy> I have already decided I'm going full Fallout if the shtf.
<gog> "if"
<kazinsal> anprims are the "enlightened centrism" of green-party-member helicopter karens who don't want gmos in little xavier's schools and post about naturopathy on facebook also don't want to see trans people exist
<jimbzy> I may just do it anyways, gog.
<gog> i think we're way beyond "if" lol
<kazinsal> the climate apocalypse is upon us
<jimbzy> We'll stick around for a while, though.
<gog> eh, it won't wipe us out
<gog> but it's gonna fuck with literally every foundation of society that we've built over the last 300 years
<kazinsal> hilariously the idiot internet anprims are going to be the ones who fuck around and find out the hardest first in a societal collapse
<jimbzy> I think we'll wipe us out.
<kazinsal> them and the ancaps
<kazinsal> the ancaps will just get the shit kicked out of them by everyone left of the klan
<kazinsal> I'm a big fan of that sniveling reddit post from an ancap about how he went to greece and got mercilessly beaten by actual left anarchists while screaming WHAT ABOUT THE NON AGGRESSION PACT
<gog> i'm gonna go find that girl in the ukraine that homebrews estradiol
<gog> start a commune
<jimbzy> The first thing I'd do is build an alcohol distillery.
<gog> alcohol is an incredibly useful substance
<jimbzy> Then, I'm going to raise a drunken army and take over the local geography. I figure we can get a 100mi radius before everyone passes out.
<kazinsal> I fully expect the unicorn ranch to build fallout-tech synthesizers for various hormone therapies
<gog> hell yes
<gog> the roving gangs of catgirls
<kazinsal> one of the things about the fallout timeline that makes me laugh is the pre-war bit where the US annexes canada
<kazinsal> beacuse the US cannot fight wars in hill country
<jimbzy> Haha
<gog> lol
<jimbzy> They hold the high ground.
<kazinsal> invading alberta? easy. invading saskatchewan? easy. invading BC? lmao
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<gog> quebec? good luck
<gog> maybe the flat lands in the west half
<kazinsal> thousands and thousands of beaver-hat-wearing militia members with a half dozen SKSes each
<kazinsal> all apologizing as they plink at invading soldiers from hundreds of yards up
<nanovad> Hey, us midwesterners don't know how to spell 'mountain', how do you expect us to climb them lmao
<gog> hey, i'm a midwesterner who is now among mountains :p
<nanovad> omg you spelled it
<nanovad> :P
<jimbzy> It's true. I once saw some people in Kansas stop and put on climbing gear to walk over a speed bump.
<gog> i can spell it in multiple languages!
<nanovad> :o
<gog> montaña, fjall
<gog> that's about it
<nanovad> isn't montaña a country
<gog> it's a state you won't catch me in
<gog> i like not being hate crimed tyvm
<jimbzy> At the same time, though. If an American were to enter Ottawa and ask, "May we please have your country?" it'd probably work.
<gog> idk, the canadians resisted gilead in the handmaid's tale :p
<gog> sort of
<kazinsal> we'll burn that damn palace down again don't you forget it
<gog> hahha
<gog> 1812 in 2022
<nanovad> twitter bot when
<kazinsal> also the eviction moratoriums are expired in the states and something like 12 million adult americans are about to be homeless
<gog> new york is until the 31st is all i know
<kazinsal> that's a lot of disgruntled people being fucked over by conservatism with nothing to lose in a country with more guns than population
<gog> a whole extra month
<gog> kazinsal: every massive upward transfer of wealth in this country has only had token resistance so idk
<gog> *the us
<gog> damn it why do i keep thinking i still live in that place
<jimbzy> Because Iceland doesn't really exist?
<kazinsal> twelve million people suddenly no longer having a roof and no means to acquire a new one is an unprecedented societal disaster
<gog> true
<jimbzy> kazinsal, I doubt it will be like that.
<gog> it's not unprecedented, the great depression did the same thing
<gog> although, keynesianism is dead now
<kazinsal> only problem is that the chances of getting a second new deal going and passed intact when the government is basically 98% conservative or further right is going to be basically impossible
<kazinsal> there will be no New Public Works Administration
<gog> yeah neoliberalism is way entrenched
<gog> more austerity will be the "answer"
<jimbzy> I don't get it.
<kazinsal> it's easy, the rich rule the planet and will happily throw away tens of millions of lives in order to keep every penny of their uncountable wealth
<kazinsal> you and me are not even people to them
<jimbzy> Oh, I know that.
<kazinsal> they are horribly broken monsters
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<jimbzy> It seems like they got it right this time, though.
<jimbzy> They gave us the illusion of freedom.
<kazinsal> strip away funding for public education and you end up with the majority of people being complacent little worker drones who go "it's fine" when things get incrementaly worse for them over and over
<jimbzy> We killed the vibe, kazinsal :(
<kazinsal> the vibe shall regenerate on its own comrade
<gog> i wanna revisit this idea of roving gangs of armed trans people
<gog> because that sounds lit
<jimbzy> That would be pretty awesome.
<jimbzy> It sounds like 1980's Los Angeles.
<gog> the tranguard XD
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Tenacious Unicorn Ranch - Wikipedia
<kazinsal> they have standoffs with chuds and the chuds back down because they know the ranch will win
<jimbzy> Like, C.H.U.D. chuds, or is that a term for something else?
<jimbzy> I'm writing all this down for a FPS to be named at a later date... ;)
<kazinsal> it's a term for far righters basically
<kazinsal> taken from the film, yes
<gog> yeah online people have taken to calling them "chuds"
<kazinsal> the kind of trump slogan spamming idiot who gets his best AR-15 out to go protest mask mandates in the name of freedom and tyranny and QAnon
<kazinsal> who has ten thousand dollars of ill-fitting and improperly-worn combat kit
<kazinsal> who probably can't even hit a stationary target at 50 yards or run around a block without falling over of an exploded aorta
<gog> i live in iceland, best i can get is a pointy stick and a hunk of concrete
<kazinsal> a friend of mine once threw an e-scooter through a payday lender window in an act of frontier justice
<kazinsal> she managed to get the charge knocked down to like, a week in jail and a couple months of probation lol
<gog> ngl, i hate e-scooters and i was onhe the hater bandwagon for a minute
<jimbzy> Like all electric scooters, or those ones they rent out?
<gog> the rental ones because people leave them in inconvenient places
<kazinsal> the ones you rent for exorbitant fees
<gog> but like 25% of this city's land area is roads and parking lots
<jimbzy> We have those in our city.
<gog> why am i mad about a scooter that takes up a fraction of a fraction of the space that some dude's land rover that he doesn't take past the suburbs
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<kingoffrance> Izem, "are application specific OSes a thing" Through the 1950s, many major features were pioneered in the field of operating systems on mainframe computers, including batch processing, input/output interrupting, buffering, multitasking, spooling, runtime libraries, link-loading, and programs for sorting records in files. These features were included or not included in application software at the option of application programmers, rather than
<kingoffrance> in a separate operating system used by all applications. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system#History
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Operating system - Wikipedia
<kingoffrance> so the answer is....full circle :)
<Izem> haha nice
<kingoffrance> another: There is an old engineering aphorism that proper database engines are complete operating systems implemented in user-space.
<kingoffrance> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14007774 just a random comment
<bslsk05> ​news.ycombinator.com: A database built like an operating system: the architecture of FaunaDB | Hacker News
<kingoffrance> but i tink that's how some things were ...
<kingoffrance> *think
<Izem> heh, I was under the impression that a database is far far simpler to implement
<kingoffrance> i wish i had a better reference, i believe it was a so-called killer app, one might've chosen an os/hardware based on running one or two applications. so i guess that still happens a bit.
<Izem> but maybe this is a specific general purpose database that has some expectations :P
<Izem> oh cool
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<kingoffrance> i think it's also kind of with big expensive mainframes and such, you had to get a service package...they could perhaps tune things for your app... so that is still the case for large servers i suppose, you get hw + license for sw + service contract ...you probably cannot get the latter 2 separately in some cases, only as a bundle
<kingoffrance> well, you probably could not get hw without the other 2 either
<kingoffrance> i guess thats called OEM operating system license nowadays...try to tie it to a specific machine
<kingoffrance> thats my understanding...youd kind of purchase them all together
<kingoffrance> i guess theyd sell you on a "solution"
<kingoffrance> i.e. bundle
<Izem> kingoffrance: anything I can google to get more info on stuff like this?
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<kingoffrance> sorry, but i remember reading those somewhere...i wasnt around of course, so those are my *guesses* from hazy memory
<kingoffrance> just seen it before so knew what to search for :)
<kingoffrance> i dont know, find some old "database os" and it was probably close to one and the same with the application
<kingoffrance> maybe another way to say that: database itself was *the* application perhaps
* kingoffrance afk
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Pick operating system - Wikipedia
<kingoffrance> nitial release1965 (GIRLS), 1973 (Reality Operating System)
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<kingoffrance> It was supposed to be used by the U.S. Army to control the inventory of Cheyenne helicopter parts
<klys> hehe
<bslsk05> ​www.newegg.com: Supermicro AMD Motherboard/CPU Bundle - M12SWA-TF Workstation Motherboard Installed with AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3995WX CPU 64-Core/128-Thread Processor - Integrated by Supermicro - Newegg.com
<klys> ends in about 45 minutes
<Izem> kingoffrance: thatnks I looked at that early too
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