klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<heat> sooo I was just looking at alder lake
<heat> it looks super weird
<heat> hybrid design (half of the cores are high-performance, the other half is "high-efficiency")
<heat> you're still stuck with 16 threads in desktop CPUs(non Xeon), high performance cores have less cache than high efficiency cores?
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<heat> ah wait they mean actual cores
<heat> you can get up to 24 threads in alder lake, 8 big cores with hyperthreading and 8 small cores without it
<heat> sounds way less bad but still not great
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<geist> yah the design of the small cores is really odd too
<geist> like, incredibly wide. i wonder if they're onto something there
<geist> well back end is incredibly wide, with aggressive clock gating of unused units
<geist> maybe they figured that having less scheduler logic but more units that can run things in parallel and be gated is actually better for power
<geist> Gracemont
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<heat> i wonder if having a big.LITTLE design will impact the performance in non-big.LITTLE aware schedulers
<heat> hell, how can you even know it's big.LITTLE in x86?
<geist> that's the burning question, but i think there's a whitepaper or whatnot
<geist> since up until now you can use cpuid of any core to read the topology of the system
<geist> the assumption is that cpuid will be different based on big or little, so that'll be a new wrinkle
<heat> hmm
<heat> I was thinking NEW ACPI TABLEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!11!!!1!11!!
<geist> but that's no real different than what ARM has to deal with, it's just a change for x86 systems
<heat> but that's also an option xd
<geist> the anandtech article has some blurb about there being a windows 11 scheduler tweak/module/driver/etc for it
<geist> but otherwise linux will probably get some support soon enough
<geist> i'll make sure i buy one for work when they're released
<mandelboy> I had to comment on this that is fairly inconvenient to have fecalists taking momentum with their feces released, because undoudedly zid and sortie and their feces is the definition to such sided people, we have department of handling fecalists, but it is just that i do not coordinate that department, when people like me contribute their energy to earth crust then fecalist is someone who contributes feces only, which has a nutrients value, but it is way
<mandelboy> weaker, so i would appreciate that fecalists no longer talk about me, i can easily hunt them down and crush my knee to both of their faces, but just understand shitbreaks, i am not the person who you should be talking to or dealing with, and it was clearly signalled to you on freenode allready, and they signal it again when you go like this.
<mandelboy> until you will be handled
<heat> i have a suspicion that linux on big.LITTLE isn't nearly as smooth as one would think
<mandelboy> so good bye
<heat> if you have into account the number of patches applied by android on the kernel, and then the number of patches applied by vendors on the android kernel
<heat> Bye!
<mandelboy> i hope you understand better now, thank you, i am not su abusive man at all.
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<heat> fun.
* moon-child grumbles about screen-space coordinates
<heat> I heard the scheduler is commonly replaced so... yeah
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<Izem> in cheri bsd they had to handle memory allocations to get to use printf, is that a norm or is that only because they used jemalloc and jemalloc hand to set up memory stuff because of how it was designed?
<geist> depends.i think even glibc may need temporary memory in *some* cases
<geist> consider the worst case: printing a denormalized floating point number
<moon-child> owait, I'm dumb
<geist> iirc the worst case scenario is something like 3000 characters, or something ridiculous like that
<moon-child> of course I have to go to screenspace coordinates before doing trig
<moon-child> otherwise the ratios are wrong
<geist> years ago when i was writing floating point support for my printf i looked at what various implementations did
<geist> and iirc there are some edge cases where temp memory may be needed (the float stuff)
<geist> but most of the time no
<moon-child> there we go, perfect
<geist> can printf with at worst a moderate but up front defined amount of temporary stack buffer
<moon-child> geist: afaik older float formatters tended to need a tonne of memory, but ryu doesn't
<geist> what's ryu?
<bslsk05> ​ulfjack/ryu - Converts floating point numbers to decimal strings (71 forks/833 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<heat> musl's printf doesn't do malloc
<moon-child> at least, I put ryu in my kernel and I don't remember needing to teach it about the memory allocator
<geist> ah well, anyway, like i said i think there are some cases where some printf implementations allocate temporary memory, but maybe newer/slower/faster/better/etc implementations exist
<geist> i punted on the whole thing in my implementation and just print #DEN for a denormalized float, in which case the max possible float is fairly well defined
<Izem> interesting
<geist> problem generally being that when printing something in decimal (integer or float) you usually start from the right to the left, so you usually construct the result in a temporary buffer, and then output that
<geist> possible there are some two phase or more complex algorithms that can print left to right
<Izem> geist: thank you
<Izem> I'm going to be spending a lot of time trying to figure out what's a descent way to design an io system now
<geist> moon-child: this ryu thing looks indeed like it's printing left to right, i think
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<geist> unrelated, but i picked up a macintosh SE over the weekend
<geist> it's a fun classic 68k mac
<geist> so now the question is how feasible is it to build a boot image for this thing. like what's the floppy boot protocol for a classic mac?
<moon-child> ooh, fun
<geist> yeah exactly
<geist> i also have a fake flash based disk thing, so can fairly easily write a disk image to it with a SD card swap
<geist> because otherwise writing 800K mac floppies are not possible from PC
<geist> so hypothetically i just have to figure out where the boot sector is, etc
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<h4zel> do you need to do anything special to get si to work after a long jump?
<h4zel> I'm jumping to the second-stage of my bootloader successfully, and I can call interrupts
<h4zel> put lodsb basically puts garbage in al
<h4zel> it only wokrs before jump, so it's almost definetly a segmentation issue
<h4zel> but I cant figure out what the issue itself is, it seems like it should be working
<klange> onelegend: yes, that is a cropped screenshot of my OS
<zid> si is a register in what way could it not work o-o
<zid> bear in mind lods uses es:si
<zid> not ds
<dzwdz> that's a pretty cool color picker
<klange> lods uses ds...
<zid> oh
<klange> lods* is ds:(e)si → (e)a(x,l)
<zid> almost all of them except lods is es, heh
<h4zel> zid: Lol you're right, my wording was bad
<h4zel> so should I set ds to something in particular then?
<zid> lemme go back to 1980 so this is fresher in my mind
<zid> well only setting half your pointer to bits you control seems like poor forward planning to me
<h4zel> I mean, ds is just set to 0x07c0 from the bootloader
<h4zel> and then it far jumps to 0x7e00 (where the second stage is loaded in)
<h4zel> and after that jump, lodsb returns basically random information, no matter whats in si
<zid> what info were you expecting to be at 7e000 + si?
<zid> or 7c000 + si
<h4zel> zid: A string that I load in with just `mov si, string`
<h4zel> Should I set something to 0x7e00 after jumping?
<zid> well if your data is in that segment
<zid> you'll need the segment selector to.. select that segment
<zid> easier would just be to tell your assembler where things are better, you're still within 64k of 7c000
<zid> humor me with mov si, string+512
<h4zel> zid: mov si, string+512 is just blank
<zid> or -512 i'm too busy thinking about anime
<h4zel> Both blank
<h4zel> Should I set ds to 0x07e0 after the jump? I was under the assumption segmentation was handled by the far jump itself
<zid> jumps set cs
<zid> not ds
<h4zel> setting ds has the same result of garbage data
<zid> what address does it load into si
<h4zel> One second, let me set up my debugger
<zid> (what does your mov si, string assemble to0
<h4zel> huh, objdump returns "file format not recognized"
<h4zel> wait, got it
<zid> -I binary or whatever
<zid> i use ndisasm for .com files
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<h4zel> zid: it looks like it compiles down to "mov si,WORD PTR ds:0x423"
<zid> which is.. 1059 bytes into your segment
<zid> where is it in memory/
<h4zel> that feels like too many
<zid> sounds like your source file is fucky
<zid> it should be <512 if it's in that file
<h4zel> It shouldnt be, the first part is pretty complex but the stage2 (where the error occurs) is like 20 lines
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<zid> did you .org it correctly or whatever directive you need
<zid> like, if it's supposed to be byte 25 but you accidentally orged it to 8000 not 7c00 so it's off by 1024 or whatever
<h4zel> zid: I didn't org it, I just manually set ds at the beggining of stage 1. When first trying to fix this, I just manually added an org at stage two and it did the same garbage data but also cleared the screen for some reason
<zid> the *assembler* needs to know the segment
<zid> else how can it know what offset anything is?
<zid> that's what the org directive does
<zid> if you load your data at 0x8000 and set your org to 0, then you'd need mov si, 0x8000. if your org is 0x8000 then it needs mov si, 0
<zid> which it needs to know *when it assembles it*
<h4zel> zid: ahh, I was under the assumption that setting the segments/etc at runtime was enough
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<h4zel> also, I moved some code around and the line is now compiling to `mov si, 0x21f
<zid> that seems more reasonable, like 31 bytes into the 2nd sector, assuming org == 7c0
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<h4zel> zid: So that should be correct then, not sure what was happening with the first one
<h4zel> lodsb is still just returning garbage though, hmm
<zid> where is the string in memory
<zid> (I did ask this before)
<h4zel> zid: 0x543
<h4zel> in the .data section, which is weird because it should all be .text
<zid> how did it get there, did you copy it there?
<h4zel> oh wait, sorry, at .data:21f
<zid> where is that in memory?
<h4zel> not 0x543, thats my bad
<zid> (if you don't know, it's also not surprising the cpu doesn't know...)
<h4zel> so si is pointing to the right location, hmm
<zid> where is that in memory? Once you answer this, you'll be able to tell me, the assembler, and the cpu
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<zid> so.. figure that out
<h4zel> zid: Still kind of confused what you mean by in memory, its just hardcoded with a db at 0x7E00+21f
<h4zel> so its just hardcoded in at that spot, and si is pointing to that spot, but lodsb is putting incorrect data in al
<zid> it's not 'at' anywhere
<zid> until it gets loaded into memory
<h4zel> Well its loaded in by int 13h at 0x801f (which is 0x7e00+0x21f)
<zid> 0x801f there we go
<zid> so you need ds = 7E0
<zid> or to assemble it wrt to your *actual* ds of 7c0
<zid> so that the mov turns into mov si, 0x41f
<zid> and leave ds alone
<h4zel> ds is already 7E0, thats why I'm so confused
<zid> Then either your code doesn't do what you said, that isn't what the mov was, or that isn't where it is in memory
<h4zel> si is pointing correctly, its there in memory, lodsb is giving bad output
<h4zel> So weird
<zid> does your debugger confirm any of this?
<h4zel> Disassembler does, yeah
<zid> debugger.
<zid> Runtime
<h4zel> debugger is obstanant with qemu, so I just checked using a disassembler
<zid> just replace the lods with a jmp -2
<zid> then use the monitor to do info regs and then xp /32bx 0x801f or whatever
<zid> or use bochs
<h4zel> haha, thats what I'll do. give me a minute and I'll stick gdb on it
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<h4zel> huh, gdb seems utterly useless here for some reason
<clever> `disassemble` only works if there is debug info, `x` doesnt care, and can disasemble anything
<clever> id consider that a bug, disassemble should just disassemble, do what your told! lol
<h4zel> Its not that, but I definetly agree about that
<clever> i think the bug there, is that it needs to know where a function begins and ends
<clever> so it can pretty-print as symbol+offset, and stop at the end
<h4zel> setting the arch to 8086 does nothing, and it doesnt really listen. causing it to misinterpret the jmps and how memory is read, and it eventually devolves into 100s of ADD instructions (which it doesnt do when just ran)
<h4zel> I can get around it with breakpoints, but still
<clever> ah, i have heard that remote gdb can get confused when switching between 32bit and 64bit, and doesnt deal with real mode well
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<h4zel> I've bene debugging this all day. So confused on why lodsb isnt working. I'm just going to try switching emulators and seeing if that's the issue
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<GeDaMo> Have you set the direction flag?
<GeDaMo> (I missed the start of this so don't actually know the problem you're experiencing)
<zid> i had to teach him the difference between files and memory at first
<GeDaMo> Ah
<zid> and he keeps saying lods not rep lods so idk if direction matters
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<h4zel> zid: Lol what
<h4zel> GeDaMo: he did not teach me the difference between files and memory. I know the difference. I have been coding C for 9 years
<h4zel> I was asking in the context of assembly, because in this case, the location in the file is usually ALSO the location in memory (plus the offset)
<h4zel> GeDaMo: And yeah, I've set the direction flag! It works before the jump, just not after, so its almost definetly some kind of segmentation issue, I'm just not sure how
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<dzwdz> what's simpler to implement: ata or atapi?
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<heat> i think ATA is simpler
<heat> why?
<dzwdz> it can't read cdroms, right?
<GeDaMo> Don't they basically use the same command set?
<dzwdz> or did i misunderstand the wiki
<dzwdz> it seems like pretty much the only ata command used by atapi is PACKET
<GeDaMo> "ATAPI refers to devices that use the Packet Interface of the ATA6 (or higher) standard command set. It is basically a way to issue SCSI commands to a CD-ROM, CD-RW, DVD, or tape drive, attached to the ATA bus." https://wiki.osdev.org/ATAPI
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: ATAPI - OSDev Wiki
<GeDaMo> That makes it sound like ATAPI is just another name for later versions of ATA
<heat> dzwdz: ATA is for hard drivers, ATAPI is for CDs
<heat> drives*
<heat> you /can't/ send ATAPI commands to PATA/SATA drives
<GeDaMo> So ATAPI is built on top of ATA?
<dzwdz> can i go the other way? read cdroms without atapi?
<heat> dzwdz, I don't think so
<heat> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
<heat> Has anyone tried to mock devices? when unit testing drivers
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<Bitweasil> heat, I do it for a living? :p
<Bitweasil> The main problem is being symmetrically wrong.
<Bitweasil> You write the fake device, you write the driver, you read the datasheet wrong and they talk properly to each other but not real hardware.
<heat> are you the vmware guy? I can't remember heh
<heat> my idea wasn't to write a whole emulation of the device but a mock in a testing kind of way
<heat> like you're testing your AHCI driver and you intercept your ahci_write, ahci_read and ahci IRQs in a way that you can get errors where you normally wouldn't, ATA errors, etc
<heat> of course with a works-ok kind of test as well where the mock would check if the IO request looks good
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<Bitweasil> No, I write emulators.
<Bitweasil> But we have testing mocks for stuff like that.
<Bitweasil> "Bring up a memory bus and start banging on the UART interfaces."
<Bitweasil> Stuff like that.
<Bitweasil> Verify that what I sent in one end goes out the other, that the FIFO notifications work, it drops overflows properly, etc.
<Bitweasil> It's useful enough, just... as noted, very easy to be symmetrically wrong.
<heat> ah
<heat> so it's doable
<j`ey> Bitweasil: get different ppl writing the driver and the amulator :p
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<GeDaMo> Doesn't help if they're all reading the same flawed docs
<j`ey> they blamed the reading of the docs though, not the docs themselves ;)
<GeDaMo> Oh, I misread :P
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<Bitweasil> j`ey, yeah... in an ideal world. Heh.
<Bitweasil> I actually have a test OS for the emulator that runs on hardware too.
<Bitweasil> So if I'm beating up the MMU or something, I verify that at least for the stuff I've tested, results match hardware.
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<heat> i should find a way to run at least parts of my OS under the host system
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<riverdc> anyone here tried implementing drivers for PCIe or thunderbolt audio interfaces? trying to get a sense of how difficult that would be
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<heat> lol, I think I'm going to need to emulate RTC IRQs using the HPET
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<heat> yup definitely
<heat> this is horrible
<vin> I am designing a machine to process 100TB of data, as of now I have thought about what processor and memory modules to have but I am conflicted about storage. Should I have a cluster of machines with 20TB storage each or should I try to cram more on each
<vin> I am ecpecting the pcie lanes to be the bottleneck with more drives per mission
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<Bitweasil> riverdc, I imagine it would be heavily based on how you find the datasheets.
<Bitweasil> If you can /get/ good datasheets for the devices, shouldn't be that hard, though audio is one of those "annoyingly hard realtime" tasks.
<Bitweasil> vin, what sort of data access patterns are you going to have? Server hardware has an awful lot of PCIe lanes.
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<zid> sounds like he's worried about processing it in sub-second if he's worried about pci-e, and in which case, i am worried about the cpu speed
<Bitweasil> Someone's mining Chia! :D
<zid> apparently ;p
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<kazinsal> in which case you should never ever do anything along these lines. give your hard drives to people who intend to actually store data. preferably log off for a very long time and reflect upon your life for intentionally ruining the PC parts market
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<Bitweasil> *shrug* GPUs are ruined, HDDs are ruined, CPUs are... I mean, Intel kind of did them in with the whole uarch vuln thing.
<Bitweasil> Maybe we should *just not use computers as much.*
<gog> return to monke
<GeDaMo> Back to the abacus! :P
<Bitweasil> Do we *really* need every aspect of our life moderated through computers and microcontrollers?
<Bitweasil> Remember, the smartphone is barely a decade old.
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<Bitweasil> (in terms of actual market penetration enough to be of any real impact)
<Bitweasil> brb, need more coffee.
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<geist> yesssss. one thing we can have more of is coffee
<geist> replace computers with coffee, and all will be well
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<gog> if i'm elected as president of earth i will ban computers
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<Bitweasil> Start with machine-learning-algorithm-sorted social media.
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<sortie> gog, I applaud the large stretches of computerless lands you've already accomplished in your homeland
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<mandelboy> I do not even that the court of law full of pigs reflects who am I, i once was without a reason nr.1 skull in estonia, and this is largely taken by mistake, no one gets to that position if one hasn't got his own specific line, cause i was one of the most loved persons in my country, your assassination attempts will never bother me.
<mandelboy> i crawled out of the most complex chaotic situations , i do not bother anymore, it is just disgusting to advertise such criminal field of things that some are still active in.
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<mandelboy> I was not held in the institution cause of anything i did, cause once the most loved person was cracked up they genuinly were afraid of my life.
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<Santurysim> I feel like i've seen him before
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<kazinsal> it's frequent
<pelmeenid1> Where i am one of the most loved persons in estonia, sortie is one of the biggest fecalists in denmark, you see the difference is huge, you will not reach me at all.
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<heat> fecalist isn't a word is it?
<sortie> I take great pride in the fecal matters
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<heat> poop gang
<kazinsal> gotta keep regular
<sortie> I'll have you know my OS is the shit
<kazinsal> same with mine, but without "the"
<kazinsal> I gotta find the motivation to keep working and do that distributed processing redesign thing I was working on
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<Santurysim> Your OS is not shit if you have no OS. rollsafe.jpg . (I dont have clear concept of my os and The Hard Truth applies)
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<sortie> Perfection is when there's nothing left to remove. No OS is the best OS.
<kazinsal> sortabacus
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<klange> Computers were a mistake, so you might be on to something here.
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<kazinsal> It's a terrible dilemma. On one hand, modern technology is responsible for the continued life of myself and many of my friends. On the other, I really just want to wander off into the forest and become a hermit.
<klange> We all secretly wish for some sort of apocalypse to rid of us this terrible technology so we can _all_ wander off into the forest, together.
<Bitweasil> This sentiment is more and more common in the tech weeds...
<kazinsal> I live near a nice forested river area with plenty of fish and a decent climate and still-fertile soil and plenty of wildlife. Let me make charcoal and build kilns and huts and water wheels for a post-collapse commune already.
<Bitweasil> You work full time?
<Bitweasil> Cut to 32h, frees a ton of time.
<Bitweasil> :)
<dbana> I have been recently subscribing to the Luke Smith philosophy of buying a plot of land in the forest and living in it tbh
<kazinsal> If I could do six hours a day instead of eight I would be aaaalll over that
<kazinsal> It's not like I'm really productive for more than five or six a day anyways.
<kazinsal> eg. it is currently 3:56pm, and I am on IRC complaining about how I want to be the Primitive Technology guy
<dbana> Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for two hours and 53 minutes.
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<gog> in a way return to monke but with computer wouldn't be so bad
<gog> before social media, before the panopticon
<kazinsal> reject hyperconnectivity, return to baud rate
<gog> yes
<kazinsal> I'm pretty sure I could play FFXIV with my friends with 56kbps down/33.6 kbps up
<kazinsal> savage might be a bit tricky but
<gog> i can shitpost with any signalling rate
<gog> i'll shitpost in morse code
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