SiFuh changed the topic of #crux-social to: Offtopic Talks | Project https://crux.nu/ | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/crux-social/
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<SiFuh> Men beating women in the Olympics is now a sport. Domestic Violence.
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<SiFuh> Fuck you zorzy!
<zorz> SiFuh: :)
<zorz> jour bonne
<SiFuh> Alamak!
<zorz> The median age of an MSNBC viewer is 70. At Fox News it's 69. Younger people watch CNN (median age 67).
<zorz> i am wondering if this is truth ^
<SiFuh> Damn! Fox news viewers are spring chickens compared to MSNBC viewers
<zorz> hahahaha
<zorz> spring chickens hahahaha
<zorz> some things to follow in twitter is good... like spectator index, only the headlines asap
<SiFuh> I don't have a Twit account
<zorz> need to work with api to make a terminal view for twitter.
<zorz> SiFuh: i use it mainly for crypto
<zorz> at the beggining i used to follow 400-500 and slowly slowly now i am at 50
<zorz> hahaha
<zorz> always double check.
<zorz> today they speak clous for Japan economy
<zorz> clous=clouds
<ppetrov^> hmm... i cannot access repology
<zorz> what is repology ?
<SiFuh> ppetrov^: I can
<ppetrov^> yes, I can access it in Tor browser
<ppetrov^> but not otherwise
<SiFuh> Hmm, seems a bit strange to block/filter that site
<SiFuh> zorz: You retard. https://repology.org/
<ppetrov^> yeå
<zorz> it works for me
<zorz> Repology, the packaging hub
<zorz> ppetrov^: firefox security settings change the dns service
<zorz> try strict and choose nextdns
<SiFuh> I'm Gonna Get Drunk and Play hank Williams all night long
<zorz> i used to have that for rt.com and some other pages. now i set the default to quad9
<zorz> SiFuh: you are already on next level :)
<SiFuh> I was quoting his son Hank Williams Jr.
<zorz> i had nice pie with feta cheese for breakfast, nescafe and now its time to enjoy a cigarette
<SiFuh> I had a cup of coffee. Two shots of wine (I hate wine), and a beer for breakfast.
<zorz> wine morning morning... vinegar
<zorz> yeak
<ppetrov^> zorz, I use google chrome
<SiFuh> Iridium
<zorz> never used the sit... Iridium they say is good. on my phone i have bromite
<zorz> its like iridium
<ppetrov^> zorz, feta cheese, that's Bulgarian cheese, man. You greeks stole it from us. Same as yogurt
<zorz> hahaha
<ppetrov^> (^ it's a joke)
<zorz> fuckin Slavs
<zorz> everything is yours
<ppetrov^> i find it funny to hear about "traditional bulgarian cuisine"... things are so mixed there
<zorz> you find us here... we did not find you
<ppetrov^> everything is yours <- that would be ex-yugoslavia. All countrie sthere are great
<ppetrov^> you find us here <- we found the Byzentine empire, not Greece
<ppetrov^> huehuehue
<zorz> ppetrov^: the most funny is with skopje and macedonia
<SiFuh> Long live Yugoslavia! Oh wait, it's gone. :-(
<ppetrov^> dont...
<ppetrov^> skopje, the city where statues are more than people
<zorz> Yugoslavia, Bulgars, Greeks, and the Original Turks are ok people.
<ppetrov^> zorz, you call us Vulgars
<ppetrov^> enough said...
<zorz> ppetrov^: check on chrome,,, somewhere you can choose your dns service.
<zorz> otherwise change your default dns service on crux
<zorz> i can give you if you use dhcpcd a conf for quad9
<ppetrov^> i will check
<zorz> ppetrov^: if you need tell me
<ppetrov^> i use connmand for network, is google's dns 8.8.8.8 or sth?
<zorz> wait
<zorz> ppetrov^: what doas cat /etc/resolv.conf says to you
<zorz> zorz@vbox:~$ doas cat /etc/resolv.conf
<zorz> nameserver 9.9.9.9
<zorz> # /etc/resolv.conf.head can replace this line
<zorz> nameserver 149.112.112.112
<zorz> nameserver 2620:fe::fe
<zorz> nameserver 2620:fe::9
<zorz> nameserver fe80::1%wlp4s0
<zorz> yours what it says ?
<ppetrov^> # Generated by Connection Manager
<ppetrov^> nameserver ::1
<ppetrov^> nameserver 127.0.0.1
<zorz> ok i will paste a file to you
<zorz> and put it in
<zorz> /etc/dhcpcd/dhcpcd.conf
<zorz> make backup of the old file
<ppetrov^> sure, sure
<ppetrov^> repology used to work
<zorz> zorz@vbox:~$ doas cat /etc/dhcpcd/dhcpcd.conf |dpaste
<zorz> like this your linux will use as fefault dns server quad9
<ppetrov^> thanks, i will give it a try
<zorz> ok and myself on firefox... i do not use any dns server i use the default of the machine.
<SiFuh> dhcpd.conf?
<zorz> yes
<SiFuh> WTF?
<zorz> is the one that does the resolv.conf
<SiFuh> Why not just use resolv.conf?
<zorz> is the one that does the resolv.conf
<zorz> everytime you reboot it changes it
<zorz> you need to adapt dhcpcd.conf
<SiFuh> So you don't have resolv.conf.heads and tails?
<zorz> cause everytime you reboot dhcpcd.conf creates the resolv.conf
<zorz> nope what is this
<zorz> my resolv.conf is autogenerated from dhcpcd.conf... i RTFM for this one
<zorz> hahahaha
<SiFuh> Alternatively, one may edit /etc/resolv.conf.head or /etc/resolv.conf.tail, which will be appended to the start or end of /etc/resolv.conf, respectively.
<zorz> i dont know this way
<SiFuh> Or you can disable resolv.conf editing in dhcpd.conf with nohook resolv.conf
<SiFuh> Then put whatever you want in resolv.conf and it will never change
<zorz> i add a line in dhcpcd.conf.... and the thing works very nice
<zorz> static domain_name_servers=9.9.9.9 149.112.112.112 2620:fe::fe 2620:fe::9
<SiFuh> I saw
<SiFuh> And it is an abomination
<zorz> what you mean?
<SiFuh> You have to restart the service every time you modify it.
<SiFuh> By using nohook resolv.conf you can edit resolv.conf and never need to restart any service
<zorz> no
<zorz> i just did it once
<zorz> 1 week now
<SiFuh> But what if you want to change it?
<zorz> never did anything
<SiFuh> Read what I said
<zorz> aaaaaaaaaaaaa
<zorz> why to change it ?
<SiFuh> Maybe the DNS server goes down?
<SiFuh> Maybe you are using a network that blocks that IP range?
<zorz> myself i am ok... then ok i will go back to my ISP
<zorz> take the line off and restart
<SiFuh> I use myself
<SiFuh> nameserver 127.0.0.1 # resolvd: unwind
<zorz> you use unwind
<zorz> never tried unwind
<SiFuh> In CRUX I use bind.
<zorz> no need to use bind for a laptop
<zorz> you have home network
<SiFuh> No
<SiFuh> Why the hell would I want a windows laptop or an iphone connect to my network and use my DNS?
<SiFuh> They can use the ISPs DNS not mine.
<zorz> hahha
<zorz> racist!
<SiFuh> So all my machines are using bind or unwind
<SiFuh> And android, iphone, windows, use the ISPs
<zorz> i tried and install bind...
<SiFuh> Rain comming?
<zorz> but to complicated
<zorz> Rain?
<zorz> Rain is nice
<SiFuh> Nah, it's simple
<SiFuh> unwind is superior I think. No need to configure anything
<zorz> there is no unwind in crux... is it portable ?
<SiFuh> Someone should port it to Linux
<zorz> i will check onlin
<zorz> yes openbsd praises unwind
<SiFuh> zorz: I dropped from 20mg to 2mg
<SiFuh> 3 Euros for 20 pouches. Each pouch is like smoking for 30 minutes
<zorz> SiFuh: get a normal cigarette
<SiFuh> Can't
<SiFuh> My throat was destroyed
<zorz> you know what i hate ... all this vapor or iqos
<zorz> you smoke or you do not smoke
<SiFuh> Iqos?
<SiFuh> Vaping sucks
<zorz> i never thought of myself without currying a lighter.
<SiFuh> I carry lighters
<zorz> carry
<zorz> :)
<zorz> yes... is in daily gear
<SiFuh> I even carry a striker in my truck
<zorz> what is striker ?
<SiFuh> Hmm he has a shit model. Mine are solid. Can use any side
<zorz> ooo civilisation yt-dlp works again
<SiFuh> My wife and I carry one each. But we also both have a monster size one each.
<zorz> SiFuh: i like magnets.... i always keep a spare key of the car underneeth with a magnet
<zorz> hahahahah
<zorz> in a tin box
<zorz> :)
<SiFuh> Like this but bigger
<SiFuh> zorz: I've been doing that already.
<SiFuh> I use to just lock the keys in my truck under the seat. Then when I came back to the truck. I would remove the UHF whip antenna and use it to unlock the car.
<zorz> rocks
<SiFuh> Now I put a magnet under the truck and put the keys on top.
<SiFuh> Best part about 4x4 is there are many nooks and crannies you can hide stuff.
<zorz> ooo yes
<SiFuh> When I was a kid. I was swimming in the river and found a set of car keys. Told my father and they were our car keys. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<zorz> 25 years ago, i saw that in nyc, a friend of mine used to have a key with a magnet at the ford van
<SiFuh> After that if I ever drove to the jungle to camp. I never carry the car keys. Always locked them in the car.
<zorz> its always good to have a backup plan
<zorz> this means that you do not have averything for granted in this life
<SiFuh> I won't drive with a spare key underneath it. It's a jungle truck
<zorz> SiFuh: you know from the day i start using quad9, half of my regular sites i visit ask for validation if i am robot. thing is good means that quad9 really does not keep logs. and so far works everywhere.
<zorz> SiFuh: yes jungle most probably you will loose it
<zorz> build on nostr
<zorz> most secure way of communication
<SiFuh> Encrypted emails
<zorz> yes
<zorz> i agree with that
<zorz> i told it the other day
<SiFuh> And make sure Hiliary Clinton has a hammer when you email her
<zorz> they are nuts!
<zorz> hahahaha
<zorz> Hilarious
<zorz> but i do not like numpad on the keyboard
<zorz> i really like keyboards like this msi delta
<ppetrov^> i am tempted to purchase an old IBM ThinKpad USB keyboard
<zorz> should be good
<farkuhar> zorz: your riverwm screenshots remind me of dwm.
<zorz> farkuhar: yes
<zorz> its better
<zorz> sandbar for bar
<zorz> foot terminal, with libsixel
<zorz> img2sixel in terminal
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<zorz> SiFuh: Compact Mechanical Keyboards
<farkuhar> Another search term you might try is "tenkeyless", which means "lacking the numpad".
<zorz> farkuhar: thanks,,, but some of them missing the insert key..... i need ctrl insert
<SiFuh> zorz: Just buy a Microsoft keyboard https://www.visualjokes.com/pics/keyb3.jpg
<zorz> ctrl+alt+del
<zorz> hahahaha
<ppetrov^> farkuhar, wjy not 'numpadless'?
<farkuhar> zorz: Why can't you just run some xmodmap commands, and overwrite the functionality of another key to achieve Insert? Oh wait, you run Wayland.
<zorz> NORMAL!
<zorz> ooo farkuhar is correct
<zorz> farkuhar: you can achieve that in wayland easily
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<zorz> ooo farkuhar is correct <<<== tenkeyless
<farkuhar> zorz: looks like you scared SiFuh away.
<farkuhar> arewewaylandyet.com currently mentions at least seven Wayland counterparts to xmodmap: Hawck, input-remapper, Interception Tools, kbct, keyd, KMonad, and xremap.
<zorz> yes
<zorz> farkuhar: Because swhkd can be used anywhere, the same swhkd config can be used across Xorg or Wayland desktops, and you can even use swhkd in a TTY.
<emmett1> hey farkuhar, are you still working on CRUX-MUSL?
<zorz> emmett1: he works non stop
<emmett1> zorz: what a machine that man
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<farkuhar> emmett1: still working on CRUX-MUSL, yes.
<lavaball> zorz, aren't you greek?
<emmett1> farkuhar: SiFuh told me about revdep issue you having before, is it solved now?
<lavaball> oh, carnage is here as well.
<farkuhar> emmett1: the compiled revdep still needs to be patched, but the shell script version works fine.
<emmett1> lavaball: ;D
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<lavaball> now impress me and name the other 5 children.
<lavaball> well, spawns.
<bierdman> Guve tyem all the same name because their family name will be different
<lavaball> phage, riot, lasher, scream, agony.
<emmett1> farkuhar: I provided rootfs tarball and installation guide here: https://codeberg.org/emmett1/crux-musl
<lavaball> what am i paying you guys for? no wonder the cinematic universe is failing.
<emmett1> and some usefull scripts and notes
<bierdman> New Batman series the penguin is a woman
<lavaball> i'm not fixing dc. therer is nothing to fix.
<farkuhar> emmett1: reading the prt-utils ChangeLog, I notice that the bash version of revdep was replaced by a C rewrite in the 0.9.8 -> 1.0 transition, and then rewritten in C++ in the 1.0.2 -> 1.1 transition.
<bierdman> Yes
<farkuhar> so I might go through the git history to recover those older rewrites, and to see where they started to make assumptions specific to glibc.
<lavaball> starwars i fixed. marvel i might do next, thought i think i'll rather fork off.
<emmett1> farkuhar: yeah i've read that before. My shell script alternative might not as fast as the one from prt-utils. But its good until someone could write a better version.
<bierdman> Write it in rust
<lavaball> don't write it in rust.
<lavaball> unless you plan to troon out.
<zorz> what is rust?
<lavaball> coding language for troons.
<lavaball> zorz, you greek?
<bierdman> Grek geek
<bierdman> Greek geek
<zorz> lavaball: ooo yes!
<lavaball> i just spoke with a nice greek lady.
<lavaball> they are doing the call centering for the telekom apparently.
<zorz> lavaball: tell her to join us
<farkuhar> tell stenur to join us. I miss that guy.
<bierdman> That was zorz with a mullet cut
<zorz> bierdman: how is the weather in Kuala_Lumpur?
<bierdman> Rain and thunderstorm and lightening
<lavaball> oh noes. did we enter the name changing era?
<lavaball> i don't see no sifu. yet this bierdman is here and weird.
<zorz> lavaball: you start slowly slowly using your brain ?
<bierdman> I a on a mobile device
<bierdman> PC is cooling down because 40 Celsius in the room
<lavaball> zorz, that's why i didn't invite the greek girl.
<lavaball> she would be embarrassed for you.
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<SiFuh> zorz: firefox kept crashing the xenocara so I was letthing the computer cool down
<zorz> well well well
<zorz> SiFuh: maybe tor-browser works better in openbsd
<SiFuh> Also the same
<SiFuh> Iridium as well
<SiFuh> Maksim Marchenko, Vadim Konoshenok, and Vladislav Klyushin
<SiFuh> These three were returned to Russia
<SiFuh> Aleksandr Vinnik can't find him
<zorz> man Germany obbey to usa and handed the one that putin wants most
<zorz> his killer
<zorz> hitman*
<SiFuh> Vadim Krasikov?
<zorz> i think i am not sure
<zorz> i forget the name
<SiFuh> Racist
<farkuhar> emmett1: in your llvm port, why does TARGETS_TO_BUILD only include host;AMDGPU? It might result in a speedier compilation, but it has the potential to create problems for dependent ports that expect all llvm targets to be available.
<farkuhar> Also, the opt/llvm port has rust-feature-tables.patch; is this patch not actually needed on CRUX-MUSL?
<SiFuh> No it didn't
<zorz> SiFuh: today i undust my paypal pass
<zorz> HAHA
<zorz> SiFuh: at the end... Trump will end up in prison.
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<SiFuh> How?
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<emmett1> farkuhar: my llvm port indeed intended for speedier compilation. Which dependent port could expect all llvm target to be available?
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<emmett1> and my llvm port is completely mine, does not taken from CRUX's opt/llvm since its broke clang before, hence the patch you said also not included
<emmett1> i will try update the port with that patch later
<farkuhar> emmett1: zig is the only dependent port I'm aware of, which expects all llvm targets to be available. Not a big issue, just something to keep in mind for users like zorz who run software written in zig.
<farkuhar> speaking of broken clang, I kept running into errors building mesa and firefox, which complained about libclang "dynamic loading not supported". Interestingly it was only with rust 1.80 that I got this error; downgrading rust to 1.79 seemed to fix it.
<farkuhar> all the above in reference to CRUX MUSL, of course. No clang breakage on CRUX with glibc.
<farkuhar> anyway, I'm printing out the historical revdep source code (both C and C++ versions) to locate more easily the sections that rely on glibc-isms. Hopefully it won't be too hard to come up with a patch for musl-based CRUX.
<emmett1> farkuhar: owh i see, personally i dont use any zig written programs, so i never had zig installed on my machine. Does zig build for you in CRUX-MUSL? if it does, then i have to fix my llvm port
<emmett1> did you use my rust port? because so far mesa and firefox build fine for me
<emmett1> for the revdep, its great if you could patch the C/C++ version to make it work in musl. if you did, you could make PR on my codeberg repo replacing my shell script version
<farkuhar> emmett1: zig compiles fine in CRUX-MUSL, once all the llvm targets are enabled. As for the libclang error, that happened when I was using the opt/rust 1.80, not your rust port.
<farkuhar> for the revdep, I haven't yet bothered to run stacktrace on the compiled C++ binary. It's probably something simple like trying to access a file that doesn't exist on MUSL-based systems.
<SiFuh> revdep checks for missing libraries needed by the installed packages, using elfutils' libelf and the same algorithm that ld.so(8) uses.
<farkuhar> SiFuh: hmm, that would be interesting, to exchange musl-obstack and elfutils for elftoolchain (and its dependencies?). If we go that way, though, the C++ revdep might need even more work. And there are some reports that kernel compilation doesn't play nicely with elftoolchain.
<emmett1> SiFuh: my elfutils port already avoid the needed musl-obstack
<farkuhar> emmett1: is that why basepkg in your crux-musl repo does not mention musl-obstack or musl-fts (even though those two ports are still in your repo)?
<emmett1> farkuhar: yeah, its only required for dracut
<lavaball> i want the bitches!
<lavaball> where are they!
<lavaball> ?
<SiFuh> lavaball: In Death Valley
<farkuhar> dracut, heh. I guess it's fitting that the device I first used for testing crux-musl had a finicky soundcard, which only successfully initializes if i915 completely finishes loading _before_ trying to modprobe snd_sof_pci_intel_icl. Early module loading with dracut might solve that issue. Or I could reconfigure the kernel so that i915 is built-in (not a module), and then do away with musl-obstack.
<farkuhar> Even with "softdep snd_sof_pci_intel_icl pre: i915" in /etc/modprobe.d, I sometimes have to rmmod and then modprobe snd_sof_pci_intel_icl to get the soundcard recognized. It doesn't happen on every cold start, but often enough to develop muscle memory for the modprobe commands.
<SiFuh> farkuhar: emmett1: Why doesn't revdep work?
<SiFuh> Do you know any small contrib port that requires one dependency?
<SiFuh> farkuhar: emmett1: Thanks for answering
<SiFuh> I have no problem with revdep it appears on CRUX-MUSL
<emmett1> farkuhar: I dont use initramfs now.
<emmett1> SiFuh: so revdep works on CRUX-MUSL?
<emmett1> hmm weird
<SiFuh> I had to create ld.so.conf in /etc/ only
<SiFuh> touch /etc/ld.so.conf
<SiFuh> You can add these per line if your wanted to. /lib /usr/lib /lib32 /usr/lib32 /lib64 /usr/lib64
<emmett1> thats weird because musl does not use ld.so.conf
<SiFuh> revdep does
<emmett1> maybe revdep use that to search libraries
<emmett1> yeah
<SiFuh> Hence touch /etc/ld.so.conf
<emmett1> i have to try it, if so, i could remove my revdep-musl script (which is slower than revdep)
<SiFuh> farkuhar has to try it too
<emmett1> SiFuh: yeah it works, lol
<emmett1> farkuhar: i guess revdep issue is solved ;D
<SiFuh> emmett1: I was reviewing the source codes and looking at eflutils and stuff then I realised, we built all that in MUSL. So it should damn well work.
<SiFuh> The error I saw was revdep trying to find ld.so.conf so I created it.
<SiFuh> So if we want to we can modify revdep Pkgfile to touch ld.so.conf if it doesn't exist. Or modify revdep source to create the file if it is a MUSL system.
<SiFuh> Or if MUSL system then ignore ld.so.conf
<SiFuh> A readme file ;-)
<emmett1> SiFuh: yeah. Or I can just add 'touch /etc/ld.so.conf' in musl's port until revdep become musl compatible
<SiFuh> Well, no matter what. It's actually going to be relatively simple
<farkuhar> As I wrote above: "It's probably something simple like trying to access a file that doesn't exist on MUSL-based systems." Thanks SiFuh for identifying the exact file.
<SiFuh> farkuhar: That is why you need a beer
<farkuhar> Interestingly, the C++ rewrite (revdep version 2.0) got rid of hard-coded strings like "/lib32/ld-linux.so.2" that were present in the C rewrite, but it kept a hard-coded "ld.so.conf"
<SiFuh> Patch it. If defined MUSL then don't hard code it.
<zorz> 2 more shake shake baby like this.... and the wolrd will dance :)
<farkuhar> The patch might be as simple as enclosing these lines by an #ifdef #endif pair: https://git.crux.nu/tools/prt-utils/src/commit/0ff99dc6663a9d2694f8647eeba708ddbba6c114/revdep/main.cpp#L240
<SiFuh> #elif defined(__MUSL__)
<lavaball> did ewoks 1 always have a voice over at points explaining what his happening? like the weapons and the joining of other ewoks?
<lavaball> also my green screen is here!
<lavaball> now i can finally make
<lavaball> SPACE PORN!
<SiFuh> farkuhar: Does anyone even use 32 bit crux?
<farkuhar> lavaball: does "ewoks 1" refer to "Caravan of Courage (1984)"? Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall a narrator explaining the action at certain scenes.
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<zorz> SiFuh: i like this jeep
<SiFuh> zorz: Me too. First vehicle I ever wanted to own and still want to own.
<lavaball> the first link i posted was a double feature.
<lavaball> all of a sudden the dad become mcdoogle from van wilder.
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<lavaball> also the second one is way better so far.
<zorz> SiFuh: this vehicle is ideal for greece at my place, mountain and sea
<SiFuh> zorz: And also 7 continents and during wars
<zorz> but fuckin laws in greece i think you cannot get license.
<SiFuh> 900 grams dude
<SiFuh> Any vehicle over 50 years is illegal to register here
<SiFuh> Stupidest fucking law ever made
<SiFuh> A full rebuild can make the car road safe and up to modern standards even if the car is from 1913. In fact. If the care was from 1913 it would probably be as safe as a Bulldozer.
<SiFuh> care/car
<zorz> speechless
<SiFuh> Amazing!
<SiFuh> lavaball It's party time! Everyone he is speechless. Let's enjoy the night
<lavaball> bitches?
<SiFuh> lavaball: startpage sucks. I used it long enough. Results were always fuckign stupid
<lavaball> okay.
<SiFuh> Homemade dog house for extremely hot weather
<SiFuh> Results. How to build a warm dog house.
<lavaball> you don't have to convince me.
<SiFuh> I want to see ideas on kennel cooling designs. Not make a hot dog
<lavaball> it's not bringing me any bitches either.
<SiFuh> Care zero
<lavaball> now you know how i feel about your dog house.
<SiFuh> But there will a bitch living in their
<lavaball> why are they going on holiday in the old man's house instead of freeing the other ewoks?!
<SiFuh> there*
<SiFuh> So I need to make the dog house to fit you.
<zorz> SiFuh: KAMALA HARRIS SURPASSES REQUIRED DELEGATE COUNT, SECURES DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION, DNC CHAIRMAN REPORTS: RTRS
<lavaball> pics or it didn't happen.
<SiFuh> zorz: She got zero votes and never even ran
<SiFuh> Monday US time, they will release results of the DNC's decision.
<SiFuh> zorz: Secondly it is August. She can die before November which gives the ability of most states to change the vote.
<SiFuh> Ballot
<SiFuh> Someone told me her name is The Whore of Babylon. Hehehe
<zorz> hehehe
<zorz> okay!
<SiFuh> zorz: Hmm
<SiFuh> Furious rabies can last a few days to a week. Paralytic rabies can last up to a month.
<SiFuh> That is for humans
<SiFuh> In dogs, this period is typically two weeks to four months, with death occurring one to two weeks after signs begin.
<SiFuh> Why do dogs last longer than humans?
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<zorz> 'lo
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