jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<jasom> mwnaylor: in the sort term, just use two colons?
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<alejandrozf> Hi Lispers, I just published a new library for ABCL, take a look if you like ;)
<ixelp> Announcing the First Release of abcl-memory-compiler - Now Available! : lisp
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<mwnaylor> Yes, I could go with the double colons to get to the "private" section, but there is no guarantee those function will remain. package::function is always a use at your own risk proposition.
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<beach> Heh! Clouseau is not happy when you do (clouseau:inspect (make-array 10 :element-type nil)) in SBCL.
<beach> ... or rather, Clouseau attempts to access the elements, and SBCL (of course) complains.
<beach> Same with the SLIME inspector.
<beach> Same with the native SBCL INSPECT. :)
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<scymtym> i wish you hadn't mentioned it :)
<beach> Sorry. :)
<beach> Blame bike. He was the one who brought up NIL arrays.
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<scymtym> i thought i had clouseau fixed but then i discovered that SBCL can't ADJUST-ARRAY when the element type is NIL
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<beach> Hmm, I don't see why it can't do that.
<mrcom> What are the semantics of that supposed to be? I could see :element-type 'NULL.
<scymtym> beach: it tries to copy the retained elements, by REPLACE or other means, and that fails
<beach> scymtym: OK, but that should be handled as a special case then.
<beach> mrcom: You can't access the elements of such an array.
<mrcom> Cute error message "An attempt to access an array of element-type NIL was made. Congratulations!"
<scymtym> beach: right. that special case would slow down the common case to make an edge case work. i don't think a patch to do that would be very popular
<beach> Yes, performance at all cost.
<mrcom> But what's it supposed to mean? Wouldn't it be "no type at all". Equivalent to "(value)"?
<beach> mrcom: That's what the type NIL means, yes.
<beach> mrcom: It is the "bottom" type. No Common Lisp object is of type NIL.
<scymtym> the other context in which the type NIL sometimes comes up is the return value of non-returning functions
<beach> Good point, yes.
* mrcom is disappointed that "(make-array 10 :element-type 'nil :initial-element (values))" errors out.
<mrcom> (in sbcl)
<beach> mrcom: That's not surprising.
<beach> mrcom: (values) in a context where one value is needed returns NIL, and NIL is not of type NIL.
<beach> mrcom: So you can't mention an initial element for a NIL array, since no Common Lisp object is of type NIL.
<beach> *an initial element
<mrcom> Didn't realize single-result-expected context did that to (values). Sigh. The object equivalent of NaN would be more satisfying to my Hercule Poirot side.
<mrcom> But no doubt irritating in real life.
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<beach> ,(class-of (values))
<ixelp> (class-of (values)) => #<BUILT-IN-CLASS NULL>
<beach> I guess I said "mrcom: That's what the type NIL means, yes." but I should have said "mrcom: No, that's not at all what it means."
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<mrcom> It means "nothing", in all possible senses :)
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<beach> Well, NIL is a real type: ,(subtypep 'nil 'character)
<ixelp> (subtypep 'nil 'character) => T; T
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<beach> ,(subtypep '(and character integer) 'nil)
<ixelp> => T; T
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<mrcom> (defgeneric foo-gf (x &optional y)) (defmethod foo-gf ((x fixnum) &optional y) (declare (type y nil)) 42) ; => type T and NIL conflict.
<mrcom> Was hoping for "no, we really aren't going to let you pass it for this method"
<mrcom> ,(defgeneric foo-gf (x &optional y)) (defmethod foo-gf ((x fixnum) &optional y) (declare (type y nil)) 42)
<ixelp> => #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION FOO-GF #x14414456>
<mrcom> Must have dropped the second form.
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<beach> What?
<mrcom> ,(progn (defgeneric foo-gf (x &optional y)) (defmethod foo-gf ((x fixnum) &optional y) (declare (type y nil)) 42))
<ixelp> ;Compiler warnings : ↩ ; In (FOO-GF (FIXNUM)) inside an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable Y ↩ ↩ ; In (FOO-GF (FIXNUM)) inside an anonymous lambda form: Unknown type Y, declaration ignored ↩ => #<STANDARD-METHOD FOO-GF (FIXNUM)>
<mrcom> ixelp only processes one form, not n forms on one line.
<beach> Sure, yes.
<beach> And your type declaration is incorrect.
<mrcom> argh
<mrcom> ,(defgeneric foo-gf (x &optional y)) (defmethod foo-gf ((x fixnum) &optional y) (declare (type nil y)) 42)
<ixelp> => #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION FOO-GF #x144144F6>
<mrcom> More coffee needed, obviously.
<beach> Common Lisp implementations are allowed to ignore almost all kinds of declarations.
<mrcom> ,(progn (defgeneric foo-gf (x &optional y)) (defmethod foo-gf ((x fixnum) &optional y) (declare (type nil y)) 42))
<ixelp> ;Compiler warnings : ↩ ; In (FOO-GF (FIXNUM)) inside an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable Y ↩ ↩ ; In (FOO-GF (FIXNUM)) inside an anonymous lambda form: Conflicting type declarations for Y ↩ ↩ ; In (FOO-GF (FIXNUM)) inside an anonymous lambda form: Conflicting type declarations for Y ↩ => #<STANDARD-METHOD FOO-GF (FIXNUM)>
<mrcom> There we go, same as sbcl.
<mrcom> If I was QA'ing a CL compiler I'd be serously annoyed by type nil.
<beach> That's too bad, since the type is standard, so the system has to deal with it.
<mrcom> Oh yeah, it's just pretty useless, and to do a proper job the test cases go up by 2^n. And there's the strong temptation to try just one more corner case to see what breaks.
<beach> It is not useless. You can't have a proper type lattice without a "bottom" element.
<mrcom> That's the appeal to the Poirot side. Tidy completion. The practical side just rolls its eyes and grumbles about somebody having to actually deal with it.
<mrcom> Fortunately I'm not testing compilers.
<beach> If you don't do things completely, there are practical consequences, often in the form of lots of special cases that must be handled differently.
<mrcom> There is that.
<beach> You can argue that things like ,(or) ,(and) ,(+) ,(*) are useless too, but it is easier to allow them.
<ixelp> (or) => NIL and (and) => T and (+) => 0 finally (*) => 1
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<bike> type nil is useful, nil arrays are useless
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<liminality> i fixed the memory issue i was having yesterday. i was being a goofball 'n generated all the meshes for all the chunks in the world, and only after gathering all of them would i push them to the gpu and free the meshes from RAM. i'm generating batches of 4 meshes in parallel then pushing them to the gpu and freeing them until all chunks have been gen'd and pushed, RAM spikes are gone :)
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<beach> Great!
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<yottabyte> what is the system-index.txt file that gets generated? can I .gitignore it?
<beach> What's the context?
<bike> the file in quicklisp local projects? you have that in a repository?
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<liminality> hey so bit of a long shot here but, has anyone heard from cbaggers lately? i'm trying to figure out multithreading with cepl and it looks like he just stopped working with lisp altogether a few years ago...
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<yottabyte> bike: yeah, that must be the reason, because I added the repository to my quicklisp local projects so I could quickload it
<yottabyte> I much prefer that than working out of the default quicklisp local projects directory/location
<yottabyte> but so I can .gitignore it?
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<bike> i mean... i guess? but you probably shouldn't have your local projects directory in any repository
<bike> that seems like a sign that something is very wrong with your directory setup
<yottabyte> I do like (pushnew (truename (sb-posix:getcwd)) ql:*local-project-directories*) when I'm in the directory
<dlowe> I just stick symlinks into local-projects
<yottabyte> yeah, I'm on Windows primarily, no symlinks :(
<bike> i don't mean what you're doing in lisp, i mean what is and isn't a git repository
<dlowe> yottabyte: you have hard links :)
<dlowe> huh, win10 does have symlinks. Crazy.
<yottabyte> hard links... interesting. I'm on windows 11, they might've gotten rid of the symlinks? could be wrong about that as well though
<shawnw> IIRC, windows requires administrator privileges to make symbolic links, so nobody uses them.
<dlowe> yottabyte: the command is mklink
<dlowe> ntfs had hard links forever though
<dlowe> not used very much, as shawnw said
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