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<zoravur>
Hello, does anyone know how the ,@ symbol works in lisp? does it evaluate its arguments before splicing? I tried to google but the @ symbol does not seem easily google-able
<dlowe>
CL missed out by not making a language-supported iterator protocol
<bjorkintosh>
dlowe: the standard is long in the tooth. I'm sure at a future time, if the standard is ever re-revised, it won't be missed.
<dlowe>
bjorkintosh: I can't imagine any circumstance in which the necessary resources are dedicated to making a new standard
<bjorkintosh>
dlowe: Hope.
<dlowe>
fortunately, we don't need a new standard, we can just extend away
<bjorkintosh>
Revised Report N and so forth.
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<dlowe>
some billion-dollar player would need to have a serious need for such a thing
<bike>
doesn't have to be ansi.
<bike>
anyway. the sequences extension, which a couple implementations support, does have an iteration protocol, although it could probably be more general
<dlowe>
I'm not just talking about ansi. You need people to design it, people to write conforming implementations, and people to write or translate programs to it. These don't happen in a vacuum.
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<bike>
trust me, i am a lisp implementor, i know it's not easy. but its hardly impossible or even impractical.
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<dlowe>
It's not impossible. But will it ever be more practical to create another spec than to extend CL? That's what I can't imagine.
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<bike>
i mean people already did novaspec and stuff, and we have community lists of errata like on cliki and in wscl
<dlowe>
Yes, great stuff!
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<random-nick>
is there any benefit to having an official standard like ANSI CL compared to just a specification like scheme's RnRS?
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<beach>
The only advantage of having a recognized standard organization that I can see, is that they guarantee that the document remains the same.
<beach>
But I guess there are ways of doing that now with check sums and such.
<zoravur>
I don't know much about lisp in particular (or standards for that matter), but my understanding is that official standards tend to be higher quality documents, constructed by a panel of experts. And that means that there will be a critical mass of people that follow the standard, which means more functionality and libraries built on top of it
<zoravur>
(which is the most important part)
<zoravur>
reputation + quality => clout => support from others => a useful lang with lots of libraries
<beach>
It is possible that recognized standard organizations have quality requirements on the documents they put their name on, sure.
<zoravur>
I could potentially see an organization doing for lisp what for example, Jane St did for OCaml -- i.e. adopt it in small highly productive teams and then contribute to its development
<zoravur>
it doesn't HAVE to be official, everyone just has to agree on it
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<beach>
zoravur: What do include in the meaning of "official" here?
<beach>
zoravur: Also, what does it mean to contribute to the development of a standard or a specification?
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<zoravur>
Official is an inductively defined predicate: Official(y) <=> (Official(x) and x claims that Official(y) holds). Whether Exists(x) s.t. Official(x), depends on your worldview.
<beach>
Wow.
<beach>
I omitted a word before. I meant to say "What do YOU include...".
<bike>
i don't think pseudo first order logic is going to add clarity here
<beach>
zoravur: Put differently, what would make "just a specification" different from "official"?
<beach>
bike: Indeed, thank.
<zoravur>
I think if a lot of people agree that something is official then it is official
<zoravur>
but it's mostly subjective
<beach>
I guess you are not going to answer my question. Noted.
<zoravur>
I think ANSI is official, because they also created ANSI C which is widely used
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<zoravur>
I think that the consortiums are also official, because, again, they represent consensus among the major users of the technology
<NotThatRPG>
It's *possible* that having an official standard may make interaction with government and other bureaucratic entities smoother
<NotThatRPG>
E.g., "thou shalt write your code in an ANSI (or ISO) standardized programming language."
<NotThatRPG>
s/your/thy/
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<beach>
I suspect that some people think that ANSI is some kind of US government agency.
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<bjorkintosh>
hahaha! wow beach. until this moment, I had also made the same assumption. The American National Standards Institute (ANSI /ˈænsi/ AN-see) is a private nonprofit organization that oversees the development of voluntary consensus standards for products, services, processes, systems, and personnel in the United States.[3] The organization also coordinates U.S. standards with international standards so that American products can be used worldwide.
<dlowe>
on the other hand, the govt really likes standards organizations
<bjorkintosh>
dlowe: because the govt loves lobbyists. single point of interaction.
<dlowe>
disagree. The govt loves chains of CYA
<bjorkintosh>
that too.
<dlowe>
and being able to say "it's a standard" provides lots of CYA
<dlowe>
(working in govt now and getting a lot of education on its workings)
<dlowe>
(sadly no CL)
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<aeth>
standards organizations seem similar to academic publishers in that at one point, pre-Internet, they were very necessary middlemen
<aeth>
and now they're mostly vestigial rent-seekers who tend to offer worse services than a random website because they have to keep things "paper" document oriented even when the document is a PDF
<aeth>
but, yes, it's still far too easy to revise things that are in HTML form (as opposed to a random PDF on the internet or something) so having a "fixed" point in time standard (they still get revisions but they're numbered and stuff) still has a use, it's just that the entire ceremony around the organization and the costs they charge are now entirely unnecessary
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<aeth>
There's approximately no difference between a fixed-in-time PDF standard (such as the latest Scheme one) and an official standard other than that I can't actually get access to the latter without a substantial paywall. Outside of how large bureaucracies view things, I guess, but they're just always decades behind the curve due to inertia.
<NotThatRPG>
There were some sort of useful parts of the ceremony once upon a time (e.g., copy-editors), but they are gone now, whether it's paper, PDF, or HTML...
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