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<liminality>
hi all
<liminality>
where can i learn more about reducing how many bytes are consed by my code?
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<Shinmera>
don't know about learning, but profilers like sb-aprof and sb-sprof can tell you where you cons, if your code is vast. otherwise, uh, don't use functions that allocate?
<pranav>
liminality: Some algorithms and data structures book?
<pranav>
Use Inplace algorithms...
<liminality>
Shinmera! hi! :) I love your precise-time library. what does allocating look like?
<liminality>
@pranav Inplace algorithms? Also, would um... "Introduction To Algorithms" be a good book for that? I've had it sitting around for ages but didn't know if it was worth the read.
<liminality>
@Shinmera oh... okay yeah I use a lot of those.Thanks :)
<Shinmera>
there's no exhaustive list of functions that allocate, but in general it's anything that returns a "fresh object"
<Shinmera>
though allocation can also happen if you use bignums, complex numbers, and ratios
<pranav>
liminality: Inplace algorithms usually only use a fixed/constant amount of memory other than the input. They modify the input data structures.
<Shinmera>
or double floats
<liminality>
that makes sense... things that work on and return copies of the given objects, instead of working destructively in-place?
<Shinmera>
right
<liminality>
pranav: oh i see it's a whole like, field of study. this really helps, thank you =)
<pranav>
Does anyone use cons pools these days?
<liminality>
(idk what a cons pool is)
<pranav>
The kind described in Let over Lambda, iirc.
<Shinmera>
pranav: I use pools, though not for conses
<Shinmera>
heavier things whose lifetime is well defined
<Shinmera>
though SBCL's stack allocation has gotten pretty good lately (thanks Charles) so even that I use less and less
<liminality>
Shinmera: i know it's a bit off-topic and you must get this a lot, but i really really really appreciate everything you've done for the CL ecosystem. every time i introduce CL to someone, i direct them to portacle, and when they start asking about making games in lisp, i point them to Kandria. you're a huge inspiration.
<Shinmera>
I don't get it that much, but thank you
<Shinmera>
Wish I had the energy to keep portacle updated
<liminality>
the last win10 binary w/ SBCL 2.0.0. is still fairly new, and if ever its an issue then people can just build portacle from one of your releases or even just change the version-number themselves :) honestly i've never had anyone complain about it
<Shinmera>
well, windows isn't the problem child
<liminality>
oh? is it linux or mac that's giving issues?
<Shinmera>
mac, of course
<Shinmera>
and linux because deploying anything on linux is hard
<liminality>
naruhodo
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<Shinmera>
anyway, I just don't have the time I used to anymore, and maintaining portacle specifically is arduous enough that in all the years since I stopped maintaining it nobody else has felt like taking up the reigns either
<Shinmera>
makes me wonder if I should maybe think about a contingency for all the other libraries of mine
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<liminality>
a contingency?
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<Shinmera>
some way for someone else to gain access
<pranav>
liminality: Insurance.
<liminality>
hmmmm...... i mean, aren't all your projects' repos public?
<Shinmera>
they sure are
<Shinmera>
but things reference those repos and if someone forks nobody knows about it
<liminality>
ahh.... so you want to be able to give someone direct control over the original repos, in the event you can't access/update them anymore?
<Shinmera>
yes
<liminality>
deadman switch >:3c
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<liminality>
Shinmera: hey i know its annoying to bring it up again but one of my friends just wanted to relay a message; "Can you tell Shinmera I love Portacle from the bottom of my heart. So many headaches skipped."
<Shinmera>
haha, thank you
<beach>
liminality: Why is it important to you how much memory is allocated?
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<liminality>
beach: hey, long time no see :) i'm creating 3D meshes at runtime, but the heap gets exhausted when i try to make too many of them with lots of verts. i've allocated 8GB to SBCL, though even that's already too big for my tastes. there aren't any memory leaks. i want the project to run on much smaller amounts of RAM, something like 2GB.
<liminality>
pranav pointed me to inplace algos and Shinmera told me about some funcs that allocate, so that'll help
<Shinmera>
sb-sprof is my goto to figure out where stuff is happening
<beach>
liminality: It sounds like you need to come up with a more compact representation of your meshes.
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<beach>
In-place algorithms won't help if the memory that is ultimately referenced is already too big.
<liminality>
mmmmaybe yeah. honestly it's a Minecraft clone, so the meshes are chunks, each made of cubes. I was thinking of maybe writing a geometry shader that emits a cube, but that'd be running up to like hundreds of times per chunk, per frame, and making the data once and uploading it to the gpu in a buffer just means much less redoing-of-work.
<liminality>
or i guess i could just make more chunks and have them each be smaller? hmm...
<Shinmera>
you'll want an array representation for the blocks and a marching cubes algorithm to generate a mesh of the surface described by the voxelised representation
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<liminality>
do you recommend putting the marching-cubes algo in a shader and uploading a buffer holding the voxelised representation, or rather to compute the mesh w/ marching cubes on cpu then upload the result?
<Shinmera>
you can't do marching cubes in a shader
<liminality>
aw
<Shinmera>
and even if you could it would be wasteful
<Shinmera>
the mesh of a chunk is mostly fixed, so it should be computed once when it changes and cached to a buffer
<liminality>
gotcha.
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<dnhester>
Shinmera: thanks for the reply!
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<beach>
What is the purpose of the ENVIRONMENT optional parameter to UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE?
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<beach>
If an implementation has specialized array types for (UNSIGNED-BYTE <mumble>) and (SIGNED-BYTE <mumble>), which one is the most specialized? That is, if a type specifier is a subtype of both those two, which one should be the result of UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE?
<scymtym>
beach: probably so that something like (typexpand type-specifier environment) can be applied if the supplied type specifier is not one of the built-in ones
<beach>
scymtym: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
<bike>
beach: sbcl has a bunch of upgraded array element types like (unsigned-byte 7) to make this unambiguous (or at least i think that's why)
<beach>
bike: I see. That also makes sense, kind of.
<bike>
of course this is also why sbcl has nil arrays
<beach>
I kind of remember that, but I can't remember why. It will take me a while to refresh my memory.
<beach>
scymtym: So I guess I just have to pass on the ENVIRONMENT argument to SUBTYPEP.
<bike>
NIL is a subtype of both BASE-CHAR and BIT. therefore the UAET of nil must be a subtype of the UAET of base-char and of the UAET of bit. they are their own UAETs, so the UAET of NIL must be a subtype of both BASE-CHAR and BIT. but the only such type is NIL.
<beach>
Heh, makes sense.
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<beach>
Oh, great! So MAKE-ARRAY doesn't have an ENVIRONMENT parameter.
<beach>
I guess one has to be added.
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<bike>
adjust-array, as well
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<beach>
Indeed.
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<paulapatience>
liminality: If you need marching cubes, I can polish up my implementation (in CL) and release it. It's based on a paper from 2016 and fixes many ambiguity errors in the previous "best" algorithm from 2003.
<paulapatience>
It's able to generate 500 MiB meshes with 16 GiB of memory in 2 minutes. Don't know if that would be good for you or not.
<liminality>
paul: hey, thanks :) i'm making blocky terrain so i'm not sure if marching cubes would be what i need, and rolling my own mesher from the ground up would just mean a lot more precise control on my end over what i need. but it sounds really cool
<liminality>
ah... 500MiB... das a lot of verts, god damn
<liminality>
are you using floats to describe the vert positions or?
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<paulapatience>
A ub32 vector of indices pointing into a float vector of vertices
<paulapatience>
I think it was like 12 million vertices, 6 million triangles or something along those lines
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<paulapatience>
Anyway, if ever you want to try it out, let me know. I've been intending to release it but have had some other things going on. I didn't find a better algorithm of marching cubes in my research. There may be faster ones, maybe using parallelism, but they don't deal with all the ambiguities. So it depends on what your needs are.
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<Shinmera>
there's not really any ambiguities when it comes to voxelised cube marching at least
<Shinmera>
either way the base algorithm remains, just the voxel selection is simpler
<paulapatience>
Good point
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<aeth>
limiduality: The easiest way to see where the surprise conses are in SBCL is to disassemble the function because SBCL helpfully comments the consing in its disassembly so you don't even have to read the assembly, you just can read the comments. Assuming the functions are short enough that that's all you need to narrow things down.
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<limiduality>
aeth: things like thread.alloc-region and ALLOC-TRAMP-R11?
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<aeth>
yes
<aeth>
Functions that don't cons (which should be most of them!) won't have that, which narrows down where your issues are.
<limiduality>
paulapatience: i'd love to see the paper
<limiduality>
aeth: thanks a ton :)
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<selpoke>
is consing bad
<aeth>
selpoke: when you run out of heap space, yes
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<paulapatience>
limiduality: The algorithm I ported is from https://github.com/rogrosso/tmc. The papers are linked at the bottom of the readme.
<ixelp>
GitHub - rogrosso/tmc
<aeth>
You have to (?) cons, you just want to have it done mostly up front, generally in arrays specialized to a specific numeric type (such as single-float) and not lists (should be 1/4 the space for large single-float data structures on 64-bit, and you get tightly packed and unboxed even if double-float)
<aeth>
And what can't be done up front should probably be declared dynamic-extent (not heap allocated) for these sorts of algorithms
<limiduality>
how would you declare a symbol as dynamic-extent? (declare (type dynamic-extent my-cool-symbol))?
<limiduality>
paulapatience: tyvm :)
<aeth>
not type, just dynamic-extent, but you should be careful that they're actually dynamic-extent (such as only used within a function) and don't need to be heap allocated
<aeth>
Oh, and when using double-floats you have to be careful about all of the expression stuff that implicitly returns values even when it's used for the side effects (such as SETF) because double-floats can be optimized by the implementation to not use heap boxing (for the type tag!) if they don't escape function scope. They can still be read from or set into double-float arrays without heap boxing them.
<aeth>
That is where surprise allocations usually happen.
<limiduality>
huh..... interesting!
<aeth>
Also, if lots and lots of allocations are an issue for you and you're using double-floats, then pure non-inline functions that return double-floats aren't a good idea. Single-floats shouldn't have this issue except in 32-bit (rather than 64-bit) implementations. This is because in dynamic typing, you need to also fit the type tag on the heap, not just the thing itself.
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<aeth>
But I wouldn't be surprised if a GC can handle this sort of thing well.
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<NotThatRPG>
Am I right in thinking that 5AM doesn't have a way to share fixtures between tests (i.e., the value of any binding in a fixture is NECESSARILY re-computed every time it's used)?
<bike>
i believe that's correct? but of course you can have multiple checks in any given test
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<NotThatRPG>
bike: Yes, that's right, but if a check fails, because it's nameless, that can be a nuisance.
<NotThatRPG>
I will add that to the set of features I will try to (find time to) add.
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<mwnaylor>
What's advise for wanting code in a package that has not been made public via an export form? Stump WM has useful functions that would help with writing extentions, but I'm reluctant to use something that could change w/o notice, leading to my code breaking in the future.
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<mwnaylor>
s/advise/advice/
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<jasom>
mwnaylor: ask the author(s) their opinion on the stability of the symbols and the appropriateness of exporting them?
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<mwnaylor>
jasom: That's a good long term approach. Still leaves me in a quandry as to what I should do in the short term.