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<paulapatience>
dbotton: Maybe mention the use of % prefix for slots so that they cannot be accessible publicly via slot-value if the accessor shares the same name and is itself exported.
<dbotton>
good point
<paulapatience>
It's not used by everyone, but the convention exists
<dbotton>
right I would mention it for sure
<dbotton>
need to write it up better and the other notes been making
<paulapatience>
Also, mention that one convention for accessor naming is that they should not be prefixed with the class name, because it is awkward when you have differently named subclasses (there are also other reasons). This is actually where package namespacing comes in handy, in case you want the same name for a generic function but a different lambda list.
<paulapatience>
Again, that convention is not universally followed
<aeth>
the class prefix is a struct convention (though the struct can configure the conc-name)
<aeth>
(including setting it to nothing)
<paulapatience>
Another thing I learned from yitzi recently is that you can make a generic predicate to tell if a specific class implements a certain protocol rather than having an abstract superclass
<aeth>
so if I see a class prefix, I assume it was refactored from a struct
<dbotton>
ya sort of defeats packages and classes to include prefixes
<aeth>
well, no, it defeats the purpose of generic
<dbotton>
that too
<pillton>
You shouldn't think of generic functions as being associated with a class. Functions perform actions. Classes encapsulate state.
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<dbotton>
paulapatience - generic predicate to tell if a specific class implements a certain protocol - just adding something to indicate you implemented it?
<dbotton>
pillton: the GFs in this context more about interfaces
<dbotton>
interface to what is the question - but I understand your point which is more not seeing CL with a C++ eye
<pillton>
Sure. The functions have nothing to do with the class though. They are the interface to the actions that need doing. They can be generic, macros or normal functions.
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<dbotton>
well they act on them, and if you "model" things can see it as if do
<dbotton>
some early books for sure presented CL more C++y
<dbotton>
for classes
<paulapatience>
dbotton: Suppose someone has an instance of a class and wants to know if they can call a protocol function. You have two options: You can do typep to check for all the types you know implement the protocol, or you call protocol-implemented-p (where presumably it is specialized on the appropriate classes to return T).
<pillton>
One thing I like about lisps in general is that they have one way to perform an invocation. None of this f(x,y) versus x.f(y) or y.f(x) confusion.
<dbotton>
ok so a programmer indicator
<paulapatience>
The problem with typep is that unless all classes implementing the protocol have a common superclass, you can't know if a third-party implementation of the protocol does implement it
<paulapatience>
yitzi knows more about this. He believes for example that it was a mistake in gray streams to export the class hierarchy.
<dbotton>
So far I have just avoided trying to emulate java interfaces
<paulapatience>
I have not yet used this pattern, but I think it will simplify the design of some of my in progress libraries
<dbotton>
certainly could
<paulapatience>
Ok, actually, another thing you could add to your document is the client pattern
<paulapatience>
It is widely used in s-expressionists libraries, like Eclector
<paulapatience>
Basically, you should only specialize a generic function if you own it, or if you own one of the types you are specializing
<paulapatience>
Otherwise they can get overridden accidentally
<ldb>
interface is a thing to work with static typing
<yitzi>
To clarify more, I believe that exporting the classes in Gray streams should have been done as "mixins." There is already generic STREAMP, INPUT-STREAM-P, etc. So having the classes that as implied "you have use these" is confusing. And there are some minor contradictions as a result.
<ldb>
in dynmaic typing it always possible to apply a generic function until it signals error at runtime or something
<dbotton>
make sense
<paulapatience>
The client is basically a (sometimes empty) class which users define to not break that rule
<paulapatience>
Without having to possibly subclass a bunch of other classes
<paulapatience>
Trucler is a good example of this pattern, and where I learned it from
<paulapatience>
I think the Trucler manual has a small paragraph explaining it
<dbotton>
will take a look
<ldb>
client pattern unifies eql based dispatch
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<beach>
dbotton: You have to export names of slot readers/writers only if they are part of the protocol. A class can have some slots with private accessors.
<beach>
dbotton: Similarly, there may be private generic functions that apply to a class, and you don't want to export their names.
<beach>
dbotton: More generally, I guess, "exposing an object" does not make much sense.
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<beach>
dbotton: And the term "class method" does not make sense.
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<beach>
dbotton: And I don't understand the convention of using meta-names of packages that start with a colon.
<beach>
dbotton: It is definitely not necessary to use :IMPORT-FROM, and recommend not using it. It is much better to use an explicit package prefix.
<beach>
dbotton: This advice has been given over and over here.
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<aeth>
I suppose "class method" could be interpreted to mean "a method automatically generated by DEFCLASS"
<beach>
dbotton: Why do you use uninterned symbols for package names, but not for the symbol names they export? And then you sometimes use keyword symbols for package names as well as in (IN-PACKAGE :TPAC).
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<aeth>
though these automatically generated methods do not do anything special or different, afaik
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<beach>
They usually become instances of STANDARD-READER-METHOD and STANDARD-WRITER-METHOD, but that's it.
<beach>
dbotton: Instead of using a name such as SET-MYSLOT define a method on (SETF MYSLOT).
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<beach>
dbotton: As a result of your remarks here, I started looking at the code for CLOG, and there are several things that could be improved. Do you take remarks on your code?
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<jmercouris>
hayley: no need to be a jerk
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<beach>
Also, the remarks by dbotton prompted me to work on my book project on CLOS programming (from which the chapter on protocols is extracted), but I am not sure how long I will keep up the enthusiasm now that my favorite coauthor has developed other interests.
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<beach>
Maybe I should write the book openly so that people here can contribute. I'll give that some thought.
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<paulapatience>
beach: I would certainly read any draft and proofread.
<beach>
Thanks! I know you are a good proofreader.
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<dbotton>
beach: thanks! Just up but will read and incorporate
<dbotton>
Beach yes!!! I would love comments and advice on CLOG's code!
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<dbotton>
Your advice and comments priceless
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<younder>
beach How is the boot protocol coming along?
<beach>
younder: Just finished phase 4. Thanks for asking.
<beach>
dbotton: You you WHEN in a context where the value is needed. IF should be used then instead.
<beach>
dbotton: And you have several violations of the rules stated on page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
<beach>
dbotton: It also looks like you have significant code duplication.
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<beach>
dbotton: And since you have the same name for a slot and its reader, you suggest that it is OK to use SLOT-VALUE and WITH-SLOTS on it.
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<dbotton>
I will do a full walk through after your comments to spruce it up. It for sure needs it, was my first CL program
<beach>
I see. You have a method on PRINT-OBJECT with an incorrectly indented body.
<dbotton>
Beach one should not count on when returning nil?
<beach>
You can count on it, but in order to signal the intent to the person reading your code, you should use WHEN and UNLESS only in a context where the value is not used.
<beach>
Like in a PROGN before the last form, or in a TAGBODY.
<dbotton>
Ok
<dbotton>
When have laptop will look up the slides
<dbotton>
It should not have taken me that long to understand the idea coming to CL and near no documentation for it
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<dbotton>
Beach I hope your CLOS book becomes a reality. There is a need for a well written practice as we understand it today books for idiomatic CL programming. I asked from start when learned of anything existed
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<beach>
The problem is that there is so much to do, and not enough time to do it.
<dbotton>
I know the feeling :) for me it is also how much I am not the best person to do
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<pranav>
beach: Thanks for the time you take out for this chatroom, not least for clarifying terminology, which I believe helps me read and understand CLHS and CLTL2 better.
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<beach>
pranav: Pleasure!
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<mwnaylor>
In CLOS, is it possible to add a slot to an existing instance of a class?
<beach>
No, the slot has to be added to the class.
<dlowe>
the slot in existing instances will exist but be unbound
<beach>
Oh, if there is an initform?
<dlowe>
I can't remember for sure
<beach>
mwnaylor: Making it possible to add slots to individual instances would make it much harder to implement slot access efficiently. Have you seen this possibility in any other language?
<dlowe>
testing on sbcl and it honors the initform instead of having it be unbound
<beach>
That's what I thought.
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<bike>
you might get this in a more free-wheeling prototype-based object system, like you get in javascript
<beach>
And Self, right?
<bike>
Yes
<beach>
So it is not impossible to create an efficient such a system, but a bit trickier.
<beach>
But I was interested in the reason for mwnaylor asking this question.
<bike>
being used to javascript, maybe, is what i was thinking
<beach>
I see.
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<beach>
Sometimes a person will give as a reason something they heard from a friend, meant to be an argument against Common Lisp, without the person having considered the reason himself or herself.
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<beach>
mwnaylor: The good news is that you can create such an object system in Common Lisp if you like. In fact, I think the GUI library (the name of which I forget) had such a system.
<beach>
... for CMUCL.
<mwnaylor>
beach: I was was wondering if it would be simpler to patch onto an existing object rather than extending a class. FWIW, I'm still new to CLOS.
<bike>
i thought one of the JSON libraries had some MOP business to match javascript objects, but i can't find it now
<beach>
mwnaylor: It is a somewhat strange thing to want to do in terms of software engineering. What is the use case here?
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<NotThatRPG>
Is it possible to make a lisp file for sbcl that can be loaded into lisp OR used as a shebang script? Seems like LOAD won't like the shebang and bash won't like `;;; #!` but maybe there's a fix for this?
<mwnaylor>
Messing w/ internals of stumpwm. Guess I'll be better served by learing proper CLOS and delving into the stumpwm source code.
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<bike>
NotThatRPG: i believe SBCL defines a shebang reader macro for exactly this purpose.
<bike>
but that won't help with the semicolons
<beach>
mwnaylor: You can always stick the associated object in a hash table with the original object as a key.
<ixelp>
wg-manager/wg-manager.lisp at master · Shinmera/wg-manager · GitHub
<mwnaylor>
beach: Interesting implementation. Clojure has defrecord, which allows adding new elements w/o changing the nature of the original object. Lisps dialects tend to be flexible about modifying data structures.
<paulapatience>
With a #||# comment you can have exec be the second line. By default executable scripts go through /bin/sh
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<NotThatRPG>
paulapatience: Thanks so much! didn't know that!
<bike>
mwnaylor: does it not just define a new record type with the same name?
<bike>
mwnaylor: in any case this doesn't seem like it does anything to individual objects, given that it defines a class
<mwnaylor>
bike: no, same type. The modified instance will still be acceptable to any functions related to a protocol. If the type changed, it would not be accepted as a valid parameter.
<bike>
so it does modify an instance somehow? it really doesn't look it does from the docs
<bike>
plus it's clojure, which is all immutable stuff
<mwnaylor>
It creates a new object that has the new element(s).
<bike>
does it not create a new _class_ rather than a new object?
<bike>
...okay, so it's _assoc_ that's effectively adding a field here.
<bike>
assoc is creating an object.
<bike>
but sure, so you can add a field to an object this way.
<beach>
mwnaylor: This is not hard to accomplish in a programming language. The hard part is to make it efficient. If you are not careful, each access to a field would require a hash-table lookup.
<bike>
it kind of looks like the object is a hash. i'm kind of curious how this is implemented. an actual java class with an extra field for a hash table of extra fields?
<beach>
mwnaylor: I am convinced that the designers of CLOS avoided this features because of such additional cost. But, again, an object system can be designed in, and added to, Common Lisp that has this feature. I wish I could remember the system that already did that.
<bike>
the docs mention an "extension field map" and a special field __extmap, maybe that's what those are
<ixelp>
cl-json/src/objects.lisp at master · sharplispers/cl-json · GitHub
<beach>
bike: So it's a hash-table lookup?
<mwnaylor>
beach: Agreed (re: adding and making it efficient). Clojure has been designed to make this somewhat easy. That's why I was asking about something like an add-slot function that would modify an object.
<bike>
beach: in clojure? i mean, maybe, but it's not stated outright
<beach>
bike: I see.
<beach>
mwnaylor: OK, and CLOS has avoided it in the name of efficiency. You would have to use a different object system like Garnet to do that in Common Lisp.
<beach>
... but since you are working with existing code, that might not be possible of course.
<beach>
mwnaylor: Then just use a hash table as I suggested initially.
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<beach>
mwnaylor: Or just create a subclass with a single instance.
<mwnaylor>
beach: I'll keep the hash table option in mind, though learning proper CLOS is probably the better option for *me*. Even with that option, would still have to explore the stumpwm source code. A lot of stuff in there that uses its own macros to define classes rather than simpler defclass inheritance.
<beach>
Hmm, yes, I see.
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<yottabyte>
I'm trying to run a web request which looks like this: https://pastebin.com/L3T1np2L with uiop:run-program. mine looks a little different because it's just one line, no breaks with \, but I keep getting an error. I'm using FORMAT to format it. the thing is I output the string that I'm trying to execute, and when I copy and paste it into my terminal, it works fine
<yottabyte>
I originally tried to make this request with dexador or drakma but couldn't figure it out, but I could get simple curl requests (like GETs) to work with uiop:run-program, so I was like okay let me try this one
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<yottabyte>
I think it has something to do with escaping double quotes, but it doesn't print out
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<paulapatience>
yottabyte: What does your run-program invocation look like?
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<Alfr>
yottabyte, unless you insist, you're likely better off using the list version for COMMAND, that should avoid the shell escape hell ...
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