<nij->
What if this has to be serialized in to a fasl?
<nij->
Next time when the fasl is loaded, this #'f won't be back anymore.
<bike>
then it wouldn't be going through cl:compile like this
<nij->
I want to try it.. how do you compile it to file? I keep getting the assembly code as I'm in the repl.
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<bike>
compile-file, of course. which doesn't produce an intermediate thing for you to disassemble
<nij->
So I put (defun f ()) (defun g () ) (defun foo () (f) (g)) in to `/tmp/test.lisp`, and (compile-file "/tmp/test.lisp").
<nij->
Now I get /tmp/test.fasl, which is binary and I couldn' read..
<nij->
but the compilation went through!
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<aeth>
It will look up F and G by name. Probably. Technically, it's free to inline it because it's within a compilation unit (file in this case).
<aeth>
I'm not sure any implementation actually does inline like that when you don't request it
<nij->
I see.
<aeth>
well, it may see that the value of (f) is useless and drop the call
<aeth>
again, only because it sees that F has no side effects because it's within the same compilation unit (outside, it could be redefined to have side effects)
<bike>
but the compile-file process does _not_ amount to doing cl:compile and then working backward from the addresses.
<nij->
I see.
<nij->
Very interesting :)
<nij->
Thanks!
<aeth>
if you want F and G to stay around for sure you can (declaim (notinline f g))
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<aeth>
inside of FOO, anyway. they will have to stay around in general because e.g. the REPL
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<bike>
i don't think inlining is relevant here, aeth.
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<OlCe>
And although it's not perfectly explicit about the second case above (with :JUNK-ALLOWED set to T)
<beach>
OlCe: "The second value is either the index into the string of the delimiter that terminated the parse, or..."
<OlCe>
Exactly.
<OlCe>
Coupled with this:
<OlCe>
"Optional leading and trailing whitespace[1] is ignored."
<OlCe>
Which always applies.
<beach>
I think there is a contradiction in this dictionary entry.
<OlCe>
I don't think so.
<beach>
A case for WSCL it seems.
<OlCe>
Yes.
<OlCe>
I don't think so because you can't ignore characters if you're not parsing them.
<beach>
I think I see what you are saying. "Junk" can't be whitespace according to your cited phrase.
<OlCe>
Indeed.
<beach>
Makes sense.
<OlCe>
And it not only makes sense from a spec point of view,
<OlCe>
but also from a usage point of view.
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<OlCe>
With the description of PARSE-INTEGER, I get the feeling I can ignore whitespace, and that the next index to parse from will be after trailing whitespace.
<OlCe>
Unfortunately, in practice, that isn't true with :JUNK-ALLOWED being T.
<beach>
I understand.
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<OlCe>
Ok. I'll probably file bugs for this, although a priori I don't have high hopes that they will be accepted everywhere, especially given all these implementations do the same. But we'll see.
<beach>
I tend to agree with you.
<beach>
While you are at it, can you make a short issue for WSCL? That way, I can later turn it into a real issue report and a proposal.
<OlCe>
I've been far away from CL for a few years now. Could you remind me the procedure? I think there is a git repo I have to clone?
<beach>
No, just go to the repository and file a new issue.
<ixelp>
PARSE-INTEGER with :JUNK-ALLOWED true should return a bounding index after trailing whitespaces · Issue #40 · s-expressi [...]
<beach>
Thanks!
<OlCe>
I'm lacking time right now to format the issue properly, but if nobody beats me to it, I'll try to give it a shot in the coming weeks. And also open bugs in the mentioned implementations.
<beach>
Sounds good.
<OlCe>
I've edited the initial comment, in particular merging the additional one into it (and deleted the latter).
<beach>
Perfect.
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<younder>
beach. Is there a SICL profiler?
<beach>
No, not yet.
<beach>
There is nothing to profile yet.
<beach>
I mean, we execute SICL code, but only at bootstrapping time, and that code is not designed to be efficient anyway, so not worth profiling.
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<younder>
Good to know. I'll just use SBCL's profiler for now.
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
To be more specific, at bootstrapping time, the SICL code that we need to execute is compiled into very inefficient host code and then executed by the host.
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<drmeister_>
Does anyone use Shinmera's redist system? We a system of his called `dist` several years ago and I'm trying to get updated.
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<Shinmera>
redist is a complete rewrite and isn't compatible with the old way of doing things
<Shinmera>
it's also not fully cooked yet, to be honest
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<Shinmera>
it works, I'm using it for shirakumo
<Shinmera>
but the way it stores data is far from ideal
<drmeister_>
I have a repositories.txt file for dist - can I use that in redist?
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<Shinmera>
not directly, though the file is simple enough that you can use it to feed the new system easily enough, I'd say
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<nij->
Is the compiler of sbcl JIT?
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<nij->
It compiles while the repl is running.
<nij->
But I've read somewhere else that it's AOT.
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<beach>
nij-: I don't think the definitions of JIT and AOT are precise enough to make the distinction.
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<nij->
Hmm
<beach>
I suspect the terms were established in the context of traditional static (batch) languages.
<beach>
So then AOT means the compile is applied to a file before the program is linked and executed.
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<beach>
And JIT means that the compiler is executed during the execution of the resulting program.
<beach>
But Common Lisp is not a static language.
<drmeister_>
nij: sbcl's compiler is really, really fast. It's used to compile code interactively and to compile code AOT.
<drmeister_>
I think it always compiles to native code.
<Shinmera>
the compiler is pretty slow, but the resulting code can be good
<beach>
drmeister_: I think the question here is whether interactive compilation is defined as JIT or AOT.
<Shinmera>
"JIT" can also refer to automatic hot-path optimisation techniques, which afaiu no implementation performs at this time
<drmeister_>
Speaking as someone with a slow compiler I'm calling sbcl fast.
<nij->
(haha)
<drmeister_>
I understand. Clasp has a JIT.
<nij->
I maybe mixing AOT+interactive with JIT.
<nij->
Feels that both notions are similar. But JIT includes more hastleness.
<nij->
Is there a program that inputs any claim-to-be common lisp implementation, and outputs a list of violations against the spec?
<Shinmera>
no
<beach>
But the ANSI test suite tries to come close.
<drmeister_>
nij: There are the ansi tests.
<drmeister_>
A whole mess-o-tests that test all sorts of aspects of the standard.
<drmeister_>
It's our north star.
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<drmeister_>
Shinmera: If I wanted to convert from `dist` to `redist` do you have any guide?
<beach>
nij-: I don't know SBCL well enough, but let's say that a generic function is called, and its discriminating function is not up to date. Is it then JIT if the compiler is applied to a newly generated form that implements the discriminating function?
<beach>
nij-: I think it is, so in that case, the compiler is sometimes used AOT and sometimes JIT.
<Shinmera>
drmeister_: not directly, sorry
<drmeister_>
Otherwise I'm in #clasp trying to bring `dist` up to whatever most advanced level it was when you started developing `redist` - do you have any thoughts on a way forward? We have a `quickclasp` thing that we depend on.
<beach>
nij-: Seriously, I don't think the distinction makes much sense for a dynamic language.
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<drmeister_>
Doesn't JIT require that you have some runnable intermediate representation that most things are compiled to and if they are called too many times (hot code) then they get compiled to native code.
<drmeister_>
Do you have any recommendations to get past that? I don't know if it's on the critical path to success - but it's one place where I'm hitting a problem.
<beach>
younder: Far from all of them.
<Shinmera>
yea I think that's something with an https redirect or summat.
<Shinmera>
but yea I think just deleting the dir should work
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<drmeister_>
Deleting.
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<drmeister_>
As a check, after removing that directory I did (ql:update-all-dists) and it says "2 dists to check" and they are both at the latest version (quicklisp and ultralisp).
<yitzi>
Maybe delete the cache also. ~/.cache/common-lisp
<drmeister_>
Who's ixelp and why do they keep commenting on my snippets?
<Shinmera>
it's a bot
<Shinmera>
it posts the URL title
<drmeister_>
I gotta run in to work - I'll pick this up in an hour.
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<younder>
beach wouldn't it be a conflict compiling Concrete-Syntax-Tree to Abstract-Syntax-Tree to Block-Based-Intermediate-representation if you want to do your data-flow analysis on a Static-Single-Assignment form?
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<bike>
how is the generation process relevant to whether the IR is in SSA form?
<younder>
bike: I have a soft deadline on the compilation time. Also I need to test compilation. So I need to pull the data from CL to IR.
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<beach>
younder: I don't know BIR, but I don't think there is a conflict. If BIR is not already SSA, you would have to apply the transformation to make it SSA.
<bike>
there is no reason you couldn't put BIR into SSA form, and nothing about that has anything to do with CST or AST, so I don't know why you brought them up
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<nij->
Hmm.. sbcl fails ~150 tests in the ANSI test suite. Is that considered problematic?
<Shinmera>
idunno, have you looked at the tests in question and whether they are actually correct
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<nij->
Nope. But since ansi test suite seems to be a goto.. I guess the community has a number in mind whether that is ok or not.
<Shinmera>
ah, "the community"
<Shinmera>
what would it matter if you actually got an answer to your question?
<Shinmera>
what would you achieve with it?
<Shinmera>
say it is "problematic", then what?
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<nij->
problematic curiosity with apology
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<yitzi>
There are always expected failures in ansi-test. Some implement's have made some slightly different choices.
<yitzi>
s/implement's/implementations/
<nij->
I see.
<yitzi>
There is an "expected-failure" mechanism built-in, but we don't maintain it for the various implementations. We trust that the implementations will us it as they see fit.
<yitzi>
s/us/use/
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<nij->
(All failures I got, according to the test suite, are unexpected failures.)
<nij->
Is NovaSpec open sourced? Is it based on WSCL?
<yitzi>
Everything is unexpected failure until it is explicitly listed as otherwise. ABCL, Clasp and CMUCL currently take advantage of this mechanism.
<yitzi>
Usually by the addition of an expected failures file.
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<nij->
I see.
<yitzi>
Sinec
<bike>
the ansi tests cover some language semantics that are pretty obscure, so most real programs will work even if the implementation is technically wrong
<bike>
and a few tests are based on incorrect or idiosyncratic interpretations of the spec
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<nij->
Oh, gilberth is here. :O
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<nij->
Would (or did) you open source your dpANS parser that made Nova Spec?
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<mi6x3m>
Hey, I need some help with uninterned symbols. For a project I have a function (register-sound "~/foobar/sound.mp3" :dingdong)
<mi6x3m>
and later code refers to the sound through (play-sound :dingdong)
<mi6x3m>
is it a better idea to use #:dingdong if no other code cares about the symbol
<beach>
You would have a hard time referring to them.
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<mi6x3m>
beach, why? I'm not very clear on the semantics of uninterned symbols but for what I read they just don't exist in the package but are kinda used "on the fly
<beach>
Like if you do (register-sound .... #:dingdong) and later (play-sound #:dingdong) then they won't be the same symbol.
<mi6x3m>
not (eq ...) ?
<beach>
Each time the reader sees #:dingdong, it creates a new uninterned symbol.
<ldb>
(eq #:dingdong #:dingdong) => F
<beach>
,(eq #:dingdong #:dingdong)
<ixelp>
ERROR: Unbound variable: #:DINGDONG
<beach>
,(eq '#:dingdong '#:dingdong)
<ixelp>
=> NIL
<mi6x3m>
:dingdong it is then
<ldb>
unless you compare with symbol name, which is, well, a round trip
<mi6x3m>
it'd be yeah
<beach>
Then, might as well use strings.
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<mi6x3m>
I am currently using strings
<mi6x3m>
but I'm switching to symbols
<ldb>
ql:quicklisp does accept both string/uninterned symbol, so I guess you got the idea from them
<mi6x3m>
i did from a defpackage notation actually
<mi6x3m>
still not quite clear when to use #:
<ldb>
but the good idea is keep things simple, if the goal is not trying to compatible with something else
<beach>
mi6x3m: I use it to make it clear that only the name is important.
<beach>
mi6x3m: But that's not the case for your use case.
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<ldb>
historically defpackage had many versions
<mi6x3m>
how do you mean "only the name is important" ?
<beach>
mi6x3m: Since (symbol-package '#:mumble) is NIL, i.e., the symbol does not have a home package, no information can be transmitted that way. We are left with the name.
<beach>
mi6x3m: I could have written (in-package "MUMBLE"), but I think the upper-case only is ugly, so then I use #:mumble instead, telling the person reading the code that the name of #:mumble (which is "MUMBLE") is the only thing important here.
<mi6x3m>
ok i get it, thank you
<beach>
Sure.
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<younder>
beach: build of second-climacs breaks with The symbol "LINES" is not external in the INCREMENTALIST package. and Symbol "COMPUTE-WAD-DESCRIPTORS" not found in the INCREMENTALIST package.
<scymtym>
younder: we are currently reworking some aspects of incrementalist and second climacs. we hope to make a release of the relevant libraries that restores previous functionality soon
<beach>
scymtym beat me to it.
<younder>
Ok I'm trying to hack together a mock runtime. Seems I'll be using Closter, Cleavir, Elector.
<beach>
It looks like you are discovering all the extracted libraries we have been working on for the past year or so.
<beach>
Not sure what Closter is though.
<beach>
Nor Elector. :)
<younder>
Clostrum, Eclector I must admit these names are a bit confusing
<ldb>
lol, but it is better a name than ConTeXt
<ldb>
or Clean
<younder>
beach yes, I'm trying to figure out how this compiler fits into the big picture. What comes in and what goes out. How the data gets stored and retrieved etc.
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<mi6x3m>
how can I embed a tab char in a string?
<beach>
You mean the one you are working on? Again, what goes in is MIR roughly as defined by Muchnick's book. It manipulates explicit addresses and it has instructions such as load, store, add, less.
<mi6x3m>
with format #\Tab
<beach>
mi6x3m: Why not just stick it in there?
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<mi6x3m>
because it's indistinguishable for spaces
<scymtym>
if you want to avoid the tab character in the source code you can use (format nil "... ~C ..." #\Tab)
<ldb>
get a better text editor
<scymtym>
and #.(format nil "... ~C ..." #\Tab) if a string literal is required
<mi6x3m>
quite happy with vim, thank you ldb
<mi6x3m>
scymtym, it's what i did yeah
* ldb
never had problem type and see non printable ASCII in emacs
<mi6x3m>
tab is not printable you say?
<ldb>
^Q^C^T^@^A
<ldb>
and tab is ^I
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<mi6x3m>
in a macro, how can I find the length of a list passed as an argument?
<younder>
Emacs has a spaces mode that makes it very explicit what indentation characters are used.
<aeth>
just to drive home the point that the ` quasiquote thing is entirely separate from DEFMACRO
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<aeth>
You can, and perhaps should for any advanced macro, just write a function and then test the function to make sure it produces the correct macroexpansion and then call that function directly in the DEFMACRO. The only issue is that it either has to be in a separate file or wrapped in an appropriate EVAL-WHEN for DEFMACRO to see it.
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<mon_key>
Howdy Lispers! It's been 12+ years since I've visited this forum. How the heck are ya'll doing?
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<mon_key>
Is this still the preferred place to interact with other Common Lispers or are there new venues that have emerged in recent times?
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<danza_>
this channel is rather active i would say, maybe not at this hour
<Lycurgus>
it's basically same deal as was at freenode with some name rationalizations
<Lycurgus>
this is #commonlisp instead of #lisp principally
<mon_key>
Cool. So, more or less same as it ever was?
<Lycurgus>
pretty much
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<Lycurgus>
s/rationalizations/rectifications/
<mon_key>
?
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<zyd>
mon_key: there is a very active discord server for Lispers as well. Lots of Common Lisp and Scheme folks.
<mon_key>
@zyd is one more active than the other, eg. IRC vs Discord?
<zyd>
Hm. I'd probably say the Discord server is more active. But from what I can tell the channels here are decently active too, mostly european time zone for irc though. Anecdotal anyway.
<aeth>
The principle difference between IRC and Discord is that this channel has public logs on the web, while the Discord may but probably does not, effectively placing the backlog in /dev/null already (and literally placing the backlog in /dev/null once Discord, which has never turned a profit, starts going downhill or out of business)
<zyd>
I prefer irc but I'm in both. Pretty valuable ways of interacting with folks.
<zyd>
if you want an invite, i can shoot you a message. lemme know.
<mon_key>
Are Stassats, Pascal B, Zach B, etc. still active here?
<aeth>
stassats has only been in #sbcl for many, many years
<aeth>
pjb got banned
<aeth>
241 days ago if the banlist is accurate
<mon_key>
@zyd that would be great, although frankly i'm not sure how much overhead I want to give getting a discord client running in emacs.
<mon_key>
It's been a long(ish) road just to get to this point. I stepped away from programming and computers in general for nearly a decade. Recently had the need to recover some old data from a CL project I was building. Code was located on an old Linux box that had been in a flood. Had to recover the harddrives. Transfer all configs to a Mac. Get my old emacs stack up to speed. Get my environment anbd environ variables matched up. Hadd
<mon_key>
fix 12+ years of changes to the elisp drift. That took more time than i wanted. Once i got the emacs sorted it was time to get my CL code back up. Pulled SBCL from homebrew and started frobbing the old code according to the SBCL compiler erros. That took another couple days. Finally got my code to run as it once did last night. So happy :)
<zyd>
what does one have to do to get banned in a lisp channel. the heck
<mon_key>
lol
<zyd>
mon_key: well, thats the thing, you wont get a discord client running in emacs
<mon_key>
not much has changed apparently :)
<zyd>
sadly
<Mondenkind>
why'd pjb get banned?
<aeth>
241 days ago is 2023-07-17
<mfiano>
It's unfortunate. pjb has a history and the logs speak for themselves. We had a change in management and some other folks left because of the ordeal, so it's not just him not here :(
<aeth>
pjb has said controversial things before... he got banned from the off-topic #lispcafe years ago, back when it was on Freenode, iirc.
<aeth>
but it's probably best to avoid digging to deeply into internet drama because it's not a good use of time
<mon_key>
haha, there's definitely been some minor drama. Was reading the common-lisp reddit yesterday about some weird vibes around ASDF3 and SBCL.
<mon_key>
:)
<mon_key>
sorry.
<mfiano>
Agreed
<bjorkintosh>
the (hur(h of lambda] inspires passion!
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<alcor>
Not interested in drama but what's wrong with ASDF3?
<aeth>
have you read the source code of ASDF, or tried to, anyway? it's a really weird only-used-in-it style and I can understand why it would be controversial just in itself
<alcor>
I mean, it works.
<zyd>
would the source code style matter to most people? you just use the public-facing tool
<alcor>
There isn't really a unified CL style anyway. Every other large(ish) project has its own set of idiosyncrasies.
<aeth>
it has all of the "but what code is actually running?" issues that people have with certain kinds of OOP
<zyd>
oh
<Lycurgus>
the forced conformity of code styles is oddly discordant with the lisp philosophy
<yitzi>
Its bloated.
<aeth>
in theory, the highly abstract nature of ASDF means you can extend it to do anything, but in practice, it's very hard to get an understanding of what it's doing
<zyd>
a code style cant be forced lol..
<Lycurgus>
more like some corporate thing but maybe it's the academic cousin of the corporate shop
<Lycurgus>
code reviews and other bullshit
<bjorkintosh>
cargo cult styling.
<alcor>
ASDF is special in the sense that it is written for maximum portability and extensiblity, because it needs to support 15 CL compilers. Not many CL projects have this kind of constraint.
<zyd>
If you work on a project with people inevitably there's gonna be a certain style to the code base and contributors are expected to respect that style. Would think that isn't at odds with any language, Lisp included. Or is there a different criticism being offered?
<aeth>
alcor: that's with-upgradability and UIOP, though
<yitzi>
None of those reasons justify a bloated, slow and obscure code base.
<aeth>
the complexity for ASDF comes from its extensibility model
<aeth>
which... kind of makes it like an explicit continuation passing style or something? I'm not sure how I'd describe it. I couldn't really grok it when I tried to extend it.
<mon_key>
Well having only used ASDF1 and 2 long ago, I was surprised to find how much ASDF3 had become essentially glue to approximate C's Make for CL.
<mon_key>
It's come a long way, and some off the wizardry i had to do to to get stuff loaded is no longer required.
<mon_key>
Works well for the most part... uiop seems like a great addition overall.
<Lycurgus>
it went thru a mid life crisis and then came roaring back (asdf)
<alcor>
It does read like a dependency-based workflow-engine taskrunner thingy, even using some of the relevant terminology (plan, operation, action, …)
<Lycurgus>
it's tough when everybody wants to eat ur lunch and replace u with their shiny new scheme
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<aeth>
alcor: so can it compete with k8s?
<alcor>
aeth: well, stuff that fits that description can compete with basically everything.
<aeth>
I'm glad I got the right impression of ASDF, then, that it's incredibly abstract.
<aeth>
Build systems are inherently complicated, though, so maybe it needs to be.
<younder>
uiop I appreciate. The op stuff I've hardly ever used so far..
<younder>
I guess cl-project creates a op for testing
<younder>
:perform (test-op (op c) (symbol-call :rove :run c))
<younder>
aeth perhaps you can start by figuring out how that works..
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<alcor>
symbol-call is from uiop, so this is like (rove:run c), where c is a, um, package symbol (probably?). 🤷.
<younder>
a rove test so you can specify a single test or a range of test or all of them
<aeth>
I mean, glass houses and all. I write very large macros. Just a very different kind of overly abstract than ASDF's.
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<aeth>
Though that's personally how I'd approach writing something like ASDF
<aeth>
there is, effectively, a 0% chance that anyone else can read my code
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<younder>
Eitaro Fukamachi seems to have figured it out. So use the source.. https://github.com/fukamachi Specs are just long lists stuff. I can never see how it was intended to be used.
<ixelp>
fukamachi (Eitaro Fukamachi) · GitHub
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<younder>
beach found a program that generated the entire x86 instruction set to XML. I will adapt it for cluster.
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