<aeth>
technically if it didn't remember even within one line you could use PROGN but then you'd waste a few precious characters and probably forget the ) a lot of the time
<aeth>
sometimes it doesn't recognize a form past the start of a line to avoid false positives
<aeth>
,42
<ixelp>
42 => 42
<aeth>
but not ,42
<aeth>
that then requires ,(progn 42)
<ixelp>
(progn 42) => 42
<aeth>
afaik it only recognizes , followed by a ( if it's not at the start of a line so there's a lot of syntax it won't recognize outside of a PROGN if it's not at the start of a line
<adlai>
it's nice that the same functionality usable for toy examples in #clschool is not only a toy.
<aeth>
unfortunately, and for very obvious sandboxing reasons, it doesn't recognize quicklisp, so a lot of non-toy examples are too long without libraries to fit on one IRC line
<aeth>
it would be great if it had a few libraries like alexandria so you could do e.g. ,(alexandria:compose #'- #'1+)
<ixelp>
(alexandria:compose #'- #'1+) ERROR: There is no package named "ALEXANDRIA" .
<adlai>
I wouldn't expect anything of the sort.
<adlai>
living libraries are moving targets by definition, and ANSI CL is fuzzy enough as it already lies.
<aeth>
no, LLMs are fuzzy enough that they already lie
<adlai>
ixelp: you really do xelp! thank you.
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* adlai
aims at multiple birds with one stone: ,(format () "~&~{~A~^ ~}~%" (mapcar 'funcall (append (apropos-list "machine") (apropos-list "implementation"))))
<ixelp>
(format () "~&~{~A~^ ~}~%" (mapcar 'funcall (append (apropos-list "machine") (apropos-list "implementation")))) ERROR: Undefined function CCL::*MACHINE-VERSION* called with arguments () .
<adlai>
good enough for freehand :)
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<paulapatience>
I don't really understand why people mind subsequent docstring lines are aligned at the left. It doesn't bother me at all, and I'm usually really picky.
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<adlai>
SBCL's barf from (mapc 'describe (apropos-list "apropos" :cl)) is quite tolerable, although I'd find it bothersome of the docstrings were multiple paragraphs formatted that way... then it would collide with my heuristic for some block of alphachars being code rather than English text.
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<adlai>
for the opposite extreme, try (mapc 'describe (apropos-list "DEF" :cl)) on reasonably current SBCL and see if your pickiness survives defstruct, define-condition, and company.
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<paulapatience>
Yeah, that's exactly what I don't like. Just leave the raw docstrings aligned at the left so when you consult the documentation it aligns nicely.
<adlai>
... it could be so much worse: ,(sort (mapcar (lambda (string) (count #\Newline string)) (apropos-list "DEF" :CL)) #'< :key #'length)
<ixelp>
(sort (mapcar (lambda (string) (count #\Newline string)) (apropos-list "DEF" :CL)) #'< :key #'length) ERROR: The value *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* is not of the expected type SEQUENCE.
<paulapatience>
It's just the first line that ends up indented in the source code. And you can consider docstrings to be special.
<ixelp>
(sort (mapcar (lambda (symbol) (count #\Newline (documentation symbol 'function))) (apropos-list "DEF" :CL)) #'< :key #'length) ERROR: The value 0 is not of the expected type SEQUENCE.
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<adlai>
whatever... CCL doesn't have as many docstrings as SBCL, iirc; anyway, if you try (mapc 'describe (apropos-list "DEF" :CL)) on reasonably-current SBCL, you get a few where the niceness of increasing indentation for the bulk of the docstring is counteracted by the fact that the docstring is multiple paragraphs with a blank in between.
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<aeth>
seems fine?
* adlai
is satisfied, minimally, that he managed to balance parentheses
<aeth>
I like writing docstrings that are multiple paragraphs with a blank line in between
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<aeth>
Ideally, the Lisp system should be entirely self-contained, but the docstrings on built-ins aren't as good as a hyperspec
<adlai>
dunno; is it Stockholm Syndrome to declare that the Emacs highlighting of whitespace in those lines markes the docstring so it stands out against the chaff of the rest of the CL:DESCRIBE output?
<aeth>
And the presentation of a printed output in a SLIME REPL isn't as good as the presentation of a web browser
<aeth>
Also, the lack of a convention for hyperlinks.
<adlai>
the perfusion of anchors and their infuriating variety in a web browser isn't as simple and reliable as a REPL, even without SLIME
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<aeth>
yes, we should replace the web with Common Lisp, for consistency
<ymir>
based
<adlai>
the web is a good open-world dustbin for prototyping how to display data... eventually what actually works can get properly implemented in lisp without the web's headaches.
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<chsasank>
I am so happy for choosing CL as my language. The homoiconocity property is amazing.
<chsasank>
A program rewrite rule is literally 5 lines now :)
<chsasank>
Now I just need to copy the rules from FL papers one by one.
<adlai>
how do you summarise this FL thing within the logs?
* adlai
could not skim out anything beyond "yet another DSL whose ultimate purpose is teaching the author lisp" from your earlier conversation about FL a few days ago
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<chsasank>
haha, sure.
<chsasank>
ok FL is pointer-less programming. There are no names for variables
<adlai>
well some DSLs have a fundamental purpose like "add call/cc to common lisp" or whatever
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<adlai>
is it the same high-level idea as concatenative aka stack-based programming, even if syntactic details vary ?
<chsasank>
This means FL can be optimized by using simple algebraic rules. Kinda like simplifiying (x+y)^3
<chsasank>
Oh yeah the same idea
<chsasank>
But why is stack important here?
<chsasank>
I don't plan to use stacks
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<adlai>
ok. I've never built anything beyond toy examples in that style, so it was entirely possible that I had totally missed something in equivalating these.
<chsasank>
no the wiki page also says stack is easy for VM implementation
<adlai>
"stack-based" is how I think about that paradigm due to Forth being the famous progenitor.
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* adlai
admits that the name places emphasis on the wrong concept for liberating your thinking through that style
<aeth>
my bad, thanks beach... when I expect code to fail I don't look closely when it doesn't fail in the right wrong way
<beach>
I understand.
<younder>
beach OK. I stashed Table grinder away at github https://github.com/jthing/table-grinder and have some more time to look at the compiler. Still interested in my preliminary analysis or would you prefer someone else?
<ixelp>
GitHub - jthing/table-grinder: Database CRUD without the cruft
<mi6x3m>
I suspect it was my stupidity, I forgot to reload a module maybe
<mi6x3m>
it seems to work now
<aeth>
s/recursively uses eql on conses/recursively uses eql on the car of conses if numbers/
<calx>
,(equal '(a . b) '(a . c))
<ixelp>
=> NIL
<younder>
beach I've been preparing a document of sorts where I try to sort out my ideas.
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<beach>
Sure, I'll read the document. But I'll be very busy until this afternoon.
<mi6x3m>
coming back to the question from yesterday, how can I destruct n vars to m values where n < m
<mi6x3m>
i tried (&optional var1) (1 2 3 4 5) but it says "too many values"
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<beach>
You have to have as many optionals as there can be optional values.
<beach>
Or you can use &REST.
<beach>
,(destructuring-bind (a b &rest c) '(1 2 3 4 5 6) (list a b c))
<ixelp>
=> (1 2 (3 4 5 6))
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<beach>
,(destructuring-bind (a b &optional c d e f g h i j k) '(1 2 3 4 5 6) (list a b c d e f g h i j k))
<beach>
paulapatience: I have been working on Predicament (the extracted condition system).
<paulapatience>
I saw that you've been getting help from duuqnd. That's cool.
<beach>
Yeah. Much appreciated.
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<calx>
beach: you could say
<beach>
calx: I see. I'll take that into account when I answer future questions.
<calx>
thanx
<beach>
calx: Do you know about #clschool? People hang out there precisely because they want to answer newbie questions. Not so here.
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<dnhester`>
beach: "process in improved a bit" type: "in" should be "is". My writing is not very good, but I would word it "is slightly improved", "improved a bit" sounds a little too informal to me.
<calx>
beach: thanx, joined
<dnhester`>
^typo instead of type hahaha I made a typo in the word typo hahahahaha
<beach>
dnhester`: Thanks. Where?
<calx>
tho, i've been writing some stuff of myself in cl
<calx>
just that, i don't have formal education in cs
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<dnhester`>
beach: page 6 of the pdf, but page 2 based on document's page numbering
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<paulapatience>
Shinmera: Have you tested ABCL recently with cl-all? I have 1.9.2 installed and its --eval option is unusable. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4175
<paulapatience>
Obviously that's not a bug in cl-all. I have made ABCL work by creating a second temporary file and using --load instead.
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<Shinmera>
no
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<paulapatience>
I think I'll just test on the latest commit of ABCL, and if the error is still present just report it.
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<beach>
dnhester`: Thank you!
<beach>
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<beach>
dnhester`: Fixed, pushed to the repository and uploaded a new version of the PDF. Thanks again.
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<paulapatience>
Shinmera: I've narrowed the issue down to Guix. It's not ABCL's fault.
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<paulapatience>
beach: Why is WSCL issue MAKE-PACKAGE-ERROR-TYPE-IF-EXISTS named like that? Where does the TYPE come into play?
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<dnhester`>
beach: any time, I'm glad that I'm able to at least do something for you since you've taught me so much!
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<phoe>
beach: now I am
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<beach>
phoe: Never mind. Braino! Sorry.
<beach>
paulapatience: It is the type of the error being signaled.
<phoe>
beach: okay :D
<beach>
phoe: I am working on the extracted condition system Predicament which is based on your portable condition system, except it can also work as an intrinsic system. I just misread some code.
<phoe>
nice
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<younder>
Cluster outputs a CL Vector of unsigned bytes.. so we need the 'bloody' ABI (ELF STAB DWARF)
<beach>
WHAT?
<beach>
Why would you consider writing the data to a file?
<younder>
If you want executable code from Cluster you need to put it in a ELF format. Most of the time it should be enough to put in a page and let the OS set the page to executable.
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<beach>
Not at all.
<beach>
Your Common Lisp system sticks it in a function object and jumps to it.
<beach>
There are absolutely no files involved.
<younder>
But the code page has to be made executable or the OS won't run it.
<beach>
ELF is a file format that is needed because of the way the stupid OS and the stupid programming language work.
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<beach>
But there is no reason to go through a file to make a page of memory executable.
<younder>
no a code page is in memory no file
<beach>
That's what I mean.
<bike>
code in memory doesn't have to be in ELF format. ELF explains how to the loader how to use code, but you don't have to go through the loader.
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<beach>
Thanks bike.
<bike>
if you have memory that's executable, you can get to it with usual machine call/jump instructions no sweat.
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* bike
has been working on JIT a lot lately.
<beach>
Ah, an expert!
<younder>
I know this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you wanted to make a executable file then..
<bike>
heh, "expert", sure
<beach>
younder: I have created an executable file from Common Lisp, and it is not hard. You need the ELF part, but very little of it, and certainly no DWARF.
<bike>
i think SICL is not supposed to have machine code executable files. FASLs are ASTs.
<beach>
True, but in either case, writing code to a file would be up to the Common Lisp system and not the backend library.
<younder>
OK lets focus on the REPL run. where E = Compile
<beach>
Well E is Compile + Execute.
<beach>
But that's outside the scope of a backend library.
<beach>
It just returns the code vector, and the Common Lisp system does what it wants with it.
<bike>
oh, yeah, there's definitely no reason for cluster to worry about elf or whatever
<beach>
Nor for this hypothetical backend library to do so.
<younder>
Yeah. Thank god. Went over that last year and it is a mess..
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<younder>
So let SBCL execute it for now.
<bike>
what a lisp runtime probably needs is a mapping from lisp functions to executable code ranges (so it can call functions and possibly do garbage collection on code) and vice versa (for debugging). ELF+DWARF+etc provides that but also provides a whole lot of other stuff that isn't strictly necessary.
<bike>
in particular, you might not need to do any linking, which is an entire third of the acronym
<younder>
bike, true but for just testing the compiler letting SBCL do the execution should be fine.
<bike>
you'd have to make the cluster output amenable to SBCL's calling convention, which is nontrivial
<beach>
That sounds hard to do (to me).
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<younder>
For a start I could focus on the IR and optimizer and just use the SBCL assembler. That saves me the headache
<younder>
Then worry about register optimization and code generation later.
<younder>
This makes it more like the April compiler.
<beach>
bike: In WSCL issue #36, you write that "it is an error" is defined in section 1.4.2, but I can't find it. Where is it?
<beach>
Oh, it is in the glossary.
<beach>
Hmm, in the glossary it suggests that the consequences are undefined.
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<bike>
i think i meant the part in 1.4.2 that says "If an explicit error type is not specified, the default is error."
<bike>
that glossary entry seems unfortunate
<beach>
OK. I see.
<beach>
Unfortunate, certainly, but it seems to be the only place where "it is an error" is defined.
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<mfiano>
Shot myself in the foot today. It seems perfectly fine to have a package-local nickname point to the package that is being defined, which was a mistake on my part. Interesting error signal factory...
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<beach>
When would such a package-local nickname be used? The only time it could be used would be if *PACKAGE* is that package, and then it is not needed.
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<nij->
(I asked similar questions a while ago, but it's not quite the same.)
<nij->
What are some obstacles in compiling emacs lisp to common lisp, so that most packages can be used as LEM's extensions?
<ixelp>
GitHub - froggey/Iota: LLVM to Common Lisp transpiler.
<fitzsim>
nij-: you will see the first obstacles for yourself, as soon as you try
<fitzsim>
please keep me posted how it goes, if you do try!
<fitzsim>
oh, you want to transpile elisp to common lisp; hmm, not sure
<nij->
fitzsim Why? It's LLVM->CL.. not elisp->CL
<nij->
oh ok
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<fitzsim>
still, that would get you an Elisp-capable engine in Common Lisp
<fitzsim>
I think I've seen elisp parsers in Common Lisp before, but you would need lots of the Emacs class libraries to make elisp-on-CL useful in general
<fitzsim>
so it's not just a pure language translation problem
<froggey>
fitzsim: it doesn't work, I tried (issues with the emacs gc not finding all roots)
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<fitzsim>
froggey: wow! sounds like you got way farther than I did though
<fitzsim>
was it using newlib as the C-library, with the Gnulib shim?
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<nij->
More generally, I'm thinking of the possibility of embedding the ecosystem (packages, runtime, and symtax) of a inferior language in to a superior language.
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<froggey>
I don't remember exactly, was a while ago. I'm pretty sure it was using newlib, I definitely didn't port glibc or anything like that
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<nij->
In emacs, elisp code is compiled into bytecode for a bytecode VM (implemented in C). Anyone knows if LEM works in a similar way - is there a bytecode machine as well?
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<bike>
does it not just run in the host lisp?
<nij->
I think so.
<bike>
probably no bytecode unless that's what the lisp does, then.
<nij->
Ah I see, when emacs was written, they were still using C as the host language. There's not a native C runtime, so they had to implement something as runtime (now the bytecode machine).
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<nij->
Sigh.. ELISP is targeting that bytecode machine.. this ain't good news for possiblity of compilation to LEM.
<bike>
maybe you could implement that bytecode machine in CL. it doesn't look super complicated. still kinda complicated.
<nij->
bike - While that's doable, that probably kill the reason why anyone would like to compile ELISP to LEM..
<nij->
They (me?) want to be free from the inferior runtime..
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<bike>
what's wrong with the runtime?
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<nij->
It's single threaded.
<nij->
It's slow, and hard to inspect
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<bike>
i'm not familiar with it very well, but i've got the doc open and nothing in it seems especially difficult to run in parallel aside from the buffer instructions, which are necessarily going to be weirder there
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<bike>
i'm not sure what you mean by hard to inspect, but it would have to be pretty bad to be harder to debug than native code
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<bike>
and being slow just means you have to write a faster implementation. again, i haven't looked closely at this, but nothing immediately strikes me as being impossible to JIT or something. the doc even mentions work on that within emacs.
<nij->
But.. even if we make a runtime in CL, we need to have that interact with LEM. The barrior between CL and elisp will remain.
<bike>
you would be able to run elisp in LEM. isn't that what you want?
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<nij->
Does that count as running elisp *in* LEM? I'm not sure.. it sounds more like running elisp *around* LEM.
<bike>
you could probably make elisp bytecode functions callable directly from CL if you want. i did that with my bytecode system, it's not actually too hard, especially if you don't need to do any boxing/unboxing/translation crap
<bike>
what's the difference?
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<nij->
bike, it's not the same as instructing what LEM should do directly.
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<bike>
what do you mean? you implement elisp bytecode, you get to the instructions moving point or changing buffers or whatever, the VM does that by calling whatever LEM functions do that.
<nij->
Hhmmmm
* nij-
is out of his depth again; thinin'..
<nij->
thinkin'
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<younder>
My emacs uses gnu-jit to compile to machine code. So it isn't necessarily byte-code.
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<younder>
Anyhow isn't Lisp constantly jumping in and out of C libraries (well ELF .so)? This 'purity' you seek seems a bit elusive.
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<zyd>
As not-fun as it sounds, might be better off simply writing clones of emacs packages that you find useful for Lem.
<zyd>
does this channel have some kind of message-relay bot? like ".tell nij- <some message>" that would relay that message when they (nij-) reappear and type something in #commonlisp?
<zyd>
::notify nij- As not-fun as it sounds, might be better off simply writing clones of emacs packages that you find useful for Lem. Would quickly come across what utility libraries Lem needs as well. Win-win.
<Colleen>
zyd: Got it. I'll let nij- know as soon as possible.
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<Kingsy>
right, so I have probably the most basic asd example in the WORLD. but I get an error when running (ql:quickload :weather-publisher) can someone take a look -> https://bpa.st/ZKJQ <- and try and help me understand why... its insane....
<ixelp>
View paste ZKJQ
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<bike>
you need to put the asd somewhere asdf knows about. the easiest option is to put it into quicklisp/local-projects, and then run (ql:register-local-projects).
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<Kingsy>
bike: its symlinked in there
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<Kingsy>
if it wasnt it wouldnt know about the weather-runner system, its specified in the depends-on in the weather-publisher.asd
<Kingsy>
omg... so I didnt run (ql:register-local-projects).. JEEEEEEEEZ
<Kingsy>
I am going to tattoo that on my hand :D
<Kingsy>
bike: when does that need to be ran? only when a new project is added? orevery time a new system and .asd is created?
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<josrr>
Kingsy: there is an explanation about handling local projects in the top comment of the file ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/local-projects.lisp
<Kingsy>
thankyou
<paulapatience>
beach: "in the section Exceptional situations" situations needs to be capitalized
<paulapatience>
beach: stream-error should be all uppercase
<paulapatience>
"We think that it [is] reasonable"
<paulapatience>
"it is a fairly simple operations", no s to operation
<paulapatience>
I prefer saying "different from", but that is stylistic
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<Bubblegumdrop>
,(loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (format nil "~:@r" i))