00:05 <hexology> mattip: this blog post looks good!

00:07 <hexology> has anyone here developed a nontrivial application using the pypy "stackless" features? https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/stackless.html i only learned about stackless python after i learned asyncio, so i never felt a strong need to try a different system. is there an advantage still to the pypy greenlet system? the big pull of asyncio (and to some extent trio) nowadays is the rich library ecosystem developing on top of it, and first-class syntax support.

00:08 <hexology> i've also been curious about the various other equivalent systems like gevent and twisted async. but since this is the pypy channel i'm especially curious about the pypy angle here.

10:45 <arigato> hexology: it's mostly my position, but Python's async/await syntax at the core is a seriously broken design. Quite possibly some libraries built on top of it at still good

10:46 <arigato> however, the pypy angle is to shrug and copy the implementation of CPython as closely as possible, and staying out of design decisions

10:49 <cfbolz> I think the shrugging is the important part

10:49 <arigato> about the stackless and greenlet features, they are not pypy-specific, they both existed for CPython first, just long ago

10:50 <arigato> :-)

11:19 <antocuni> for my work on pyscript I had to look more closely at the aync design in both Python and JS and I confirm

11:20 <antocuni> the Python way seems to be broken by design, incredibly confusing and error prone

11:20 <antocuni> JS seems to be slightly better (but still confusing and error prone)

15:21 <LarstiQ> antocuni: how do they differ?

16:17 <antocuni> LarstiQ: python async def are basically generators

16:18 <antocuni> js async is a synctatic sugar around promises

16:18 <antocuni> the most notable difference is that if you call an async function is JS, it is "automatically scheduled"

16:33 <LarstiQ> ah, no picking the polling loop?

16:33 <antocuni> I don't understand what you mean

16:34 <LarstiQ> sorry, was thinking of gevent/uvloop etc

16:34 <LarstiQ> but now that I think of it that's not quite needed. can you tell I hardly do python async?

16:34 <antocuni> There IS an event loop of course, but it's automatically managed by the browser (or by node)

16:35 <antocuni> well, in python async you also have an explicit loop similar to gevent, which is implemented by asyncio

16:36 <LarstiQ> right, that's what I meant, as contrast to the "automatically scheduled"

16:38 <antocuni> yes. In Python, if you have "async def foo(): ...", and then you just call "foo()", nothing happens

16:41 <LarstiQ> oof

16:41 <LarstiQ> asyncio.run(), .ensure_fure() and .gather(), I see

16:42 <LarstiQ> (fwiw, I quite liked the writeup in https://os.phil-opp.com/async-await/ about how in Rust async is synctatic sugar over promises)