<mattip>
builds did not trigger last night, even though there were changes that should have triggered builds
<mattip>
I cannot log in to buildbot.pypy.org to see what is wrong
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<antocuni>
cfbolz: if I remember correctly, at some point years ago you showed me a way to visualize vmprof data inside chrome web tools
<antocuni>
does this thing still exist and works today?
<cfbolz>
argh
<cfbolz>
antocuni: that was a terrible hack
<cfbolz>
I am not sure I can still find it
<cfbolz>
antocuni: we need to do something about profiling though
<antocuni>
yes
<cfbolz>
and indeed I think a good approach is to leverage one of the existing UIs
<antocuni>
a friend tells me that he has a python program that at some point slows down for few seconds and he wanted to use vmprof to investigate
<antocuni>
but I don't think our existing tools are good for that use case
<antocuni>
reusing existing UI: yes definitely, I think we clearly proved that we are not able to write UIs 😅
<cfbolz>
I don't know that's the conclusion, more that maintaining them is work
<cfbolz>
and we all like our text stuff too much ;-)
<antocuni>
well, writting good UIs require a completely different skillset and attitude than writing JITs and VMs, so I'm not surprised that our UIs are not as good as our VMs
<cfbolz>
anyway, the profiler space (even within python but even more so generally) is really exploding
<cfbolz>
and many of the UIs take in general data that you can convert to
<cfbolz>
but we would have to take the time and write the glue code necessary
<fijal>
heh, it seems we have been ahead of the curve on both testing and profiling
<fijal>
I remember concluding "no way you can make a commercial CI tool successful"
<fijal>
very happy to be proven wrong, I guess
<antocuni>
fijal: yes, I remember you saying that :)
<cfbolz>
fijal: yes, but I think the commercial tools are very different than what we were thinking about. I certainly wasn't thinking of sentry
<fijal>
oh what do you mean, you mean that I missed taking over the world by more than one simple step? ;-)
<cfbolz>
yep
<fijal>
blatant lies!
<fijal>
cfbolz: yes, I think the main takeaway from vmprof is that people don't care about very precise measurments, they want *something* done in an easy way presented in a nice UI
<cfbolz>
fijal: no, it's more extreme ;-)
<fijal>
yes?>
<cfbolz>
"we don't care about performance unless it's on thousands of servers and costs real money"
<fijal>
yes, we kinda knew that
<fijal>
... by which time it's often too late to really do anything
<cfbolz>
but we didn't build a profiler for that mindset ;-)
<fijal>
we tried
<cfbolz>
we certainly cannot profile 1000 servers
<fijal>
we haven't built it partly because we don't have 1000 servers
<fijal>
so it's a bit hard to think how you would do that
<fijal>
I definitely thought *a lot* how to make vmprof usable in production
<fijal>
(but never got around to it and never had a client willing to fund it either)
<fijal>
as opposed to benchmarks
<fijal>
but *also* it kinda generally does not work to profile functions/loops in this setup *really*
<fijal>
cfbolz: interestingly enough, what it does convince me of is that "modeling in VR" is the future
<fijal>
that maybe I should rely a bit more on intuition what feels like the right tool
<cfbolz>
heh
<fijal>
why "heh"?
<cfbolz>
well, it's good
<fijal>
remote work is another one of those....
<antocuni>
I've used vmprof in production, for gambit. It justed worked well
<fijal>
antocuni: we never had a good way to "Stream" results and combine them from multiple servers
<fijal>
I nearly landed a contract to do that, but acquisitions etc.
<antocuni>
true, that'a a different issue
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<cfbolz>
(it's an open issue in general what a JIT looks like for such a setting)
<leshaste>
is it possible to install igraph for pypy?
<leshaste>
I just tried and it says You will need the Python headers to compile this extension.
<nimaje>
that sounds like the pypy package you installed doesn't contain header files and you need to install some pypy-headers or pypy-dev package with your os package manager or something
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