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<gog>
gleðileg jól!
<kazinsal>
merry shitmas
<kingoffrance>
ive been telling everyone merry saturnalia
<kingoffrance>
i think this will be a tradition
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<gog>
we did Christmas as a family but my wife and our friend did a solstice celebration instead
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<jason1234>
geist: littlekernel for pi? I got a pi 4. Is there a image of lk for raspberry pi 4 (rpi4 model b). It would be quite hard to boot with the efi actually.
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<zid>
I got a 4x4x4 rubik's cube
<j`ey>
zid: time to learn parity
<zid>
parity is a bitch, I solved it twice up to the final parity step and got stuck
<zid>
Also my sister randomly bought me a weirdly shaped 2x2x2, so I guess I have a set now
<bslsk05>
'James Webb Space Telescope Launch — Official NASA Broadcast 2021-12-25 12:13' by NASA (live)
<junon>
T-7:20
<zid>
I got okay at 3x3x3, I did a 46 second solve, I'm bad at pairing, and I only know T/Y/A/U
<zid>
I forgot J
<kazinsal>
junon: I swear to god if they hold or scrub it I'm going to bed
<zid>
and my OLL is basically just do the right two sunes
<junon>
kazinsal: it's all green
<zid>
Who's launching it anyway? esa?
<junon>
it's Go
<kazinsal>
fifteen years of delays
<kazinsal>
what's another couple hours
<j`ey>
esa, nasa, and someone else
<zid>
yea it's an arieanenaena
<zid>
has one of those exploded before?
<junon>
uhhhh ariane space I think?
<junon>
somewhere in the french territories in SA
<junon>
I forget where exactly
<junon>
God I hope it doesn't. 15b$ down the drain.
<zid>
spacex'd be cheaper probably but I trust it less to not explode ;)
<zid>
wellll it isn't *really* 15B gone
<kazinsal>
my money in the JWST Failure Betting Pool is on "launch goes well but the orbit burn doesn't fire properly and it careens off course instead of ending up in L2"
<zid>
I imagine almost all of that is R&D
<zid>
they'll be able to rebuild it for a fraction of that if needed
<junon>
Yeah true
<zid>
I've not seen the specs on that rocket
<junon>
and yeah, I have high hopes but low expectations
<zid>
for how much of the max fuel on an ariene they'll need for the injection
<zid>
are they close?
<zid>
L2 is a lot of power so I'd think so
<junon>
3 minutes away :D
<zid>
so yea, not making it to L2 seems most likely, rather than an explosion or anything
<zid>
They're all noobs anyway for not doing oberth passes like all us pros do in KSP
<zid>
smh idiots
<junon>
2 minutes, green board. Launch is still go.
<zid>
junon thinks he's scott manley
<junon>
:D just excited
<zid>
french accent on the lady is fun, doing the classic french stress patterns on english words thing
<zid>
french guiana, btw, re earlier thing you couldn't remember
<junon>
yes thank you :D that's the one
<zid>
it's fairly equatorial
<kazinsal>
four twenty in the morning pacific time, having a toke for good luck
<zid>
wow, that's a lot of thrust
<junon>
JESUS
<junon>
that thing POPPED off
<kazinsal>
SHE FLYIN
<zid>
yea, it looked effortless
<junon>
holy shiiiiiiit
<zid>
and that things' like 25kT or something stupid
<junon>
aaaand clouds
<junon>
well was fun while it lasted
<kazinsal>
nice, kerbal space program
<zid>
that isn't ksp stock at least
<zid>
wrong shaders
<zid>
but yea, that thing went from standing still, to like 10 feet of the pad nearly instantly, on whatever inertia that thing has
<zid>
crazy thrust
<kazinsal>
SRBs are pretty bonkers
<junon>
separation successful :D
<junon>
and they were worried about minor vibrations in the work room a few weeks ago
<zid>
oh actually
<zid>
the thing MOST likely to fuck up, is the un-oragami
<junon>
yeah
<junon>
they have like 175 or something little actuators that all have to work
<zid>
meanwhile in the 90s "You want THREE acutation points? Sounds risky"
<junon>
HOT they have live streams on the vehicle itself
<junon>
damn that thing is pretty
<zid>
all I saw was a dropped I frame :p
<zid>
and a corrupt B frame
<junon>
I wish they had the mission timeline thing that spacex has when they launch
<zid>
I want the map view from ksp
<zid>
not the 3D model
<junon>
ooh that'd be cool
<zid>
I wanna see it pushing the orbit higher and stuff
<zid>
it's going to look nearly identical in the 3D view no matter what happens
<zid>
earth will just slowly change scale
<junon>
yeah
<kazinsal>
well, the dangerous part is basically over
<zid>
dangerous to people, the risky bit for the project is absolutely the unfurl
<junon>
yeah
<kazinsal>
so anyone who had "blows up on ascent" is now paying up
<junon>
hahah
<junon>
well not quite
<junon>
they still have a 16 minute burn
<zid>
16 minute burn to get to L2, ho boy
<junon>
yeah
<zid>
and then they push the peri up afterwards or is it some carefully crafted slow burn?
<zid>
that does both
<junon>
no idea.
<zid>
I always expect them to do hohmann transfers cus they're cool but they never do, the engines are too weak
<zid>
so they do these super hard to follow slow burns
<junon>
:D it's going so well
<zid>
junon wtf is 4x4 notation
<zid>
(Uu)2 (Ll)2 U2 l2 U2 (Ll)2 (Uu)2
<zid>
pls
<junon>
No idea haha
<junon>
what's that from?
<zid>
website
<j`ey>
zid: are you left handed?
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<zid>
There's also Rw and shit
<zid>
no
<j`ey>
Rw is 2 layers
<zid>
2R2 U2 2R2 Uw2 2R2 Uw2 is the permute for the top you can just spam to solve everything apparently
<geist>
i honestly always forget, so i usually paraenthesize it
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<geist>
what did you assume that was going to do? + first or after?
<sortie>
Somehow I was thinking the ternary stuff was safe because it was on the right side of +
<geist>
yah ternary is odd. very low precedence
<sortie>
Yeah and I knew that
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<sortie>
Silly me
<sortie>
The unit test passes now but the kernel panics on more advanced stuff
<sortie>
Classic fun osdev
<sortie>
This thing happens when I refactor a whole bunch of stuff to use a different data structure
<geist>
never really thought about it but i guess you can basically think of ternary as collapsing all of the expressions to the right and left of it first, then running
<geist>
like it's a barrier that makes left, right solved first (middle is always evaluated as if it were in ())
<geist>
though i guess the right most expression doesn't get evalulated unless, but if it were it would consume stuff to the right
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<sortie>
Oh neat a unit test caught a corner case I forgot to implement and totally would have missed overwise
<sortie>
The GUI even came up for a bit before more advanced usage caused a kernel panic
<sortie>
I love going through each line of code and figuring out what conditions must be true for it to be well defined (e.g. no overflow/underflow, values being smaller/larger/etc than each other) and adding the assertions and then watching them fire, detecting bugs
<geist>
it's fake sorry, to get you to let your defenses down
<ZetItUp>
i remember having an old hacker documentary from the 90s, some kid who started hacking stuff and his father had to start hiding his computer (it all took place in the 80s), can't remember the name
<ZetItUp>
lost it to a hdd crash a few years ago
<geist>
hacking in the 'writing code using the mini assembler?' sense?
<geist>
terrible! a scourge to our youth
<ZetItUp>
hack the planet!
<geist>
next thing you know they'll be writing in machine language
<geist>
and then it's all lost. they'll just blankly look at you and respond in hexidecimal when you tell them to go take out the garbage
<bslsk05>
'Australian Hackers Documentary' by Intellectual world (00:56:09)
<ZetItUp>
thought it was only 25 minutes or something thou
<geist>
yah and also this was the real first wave of 'hacking' or 'hackers' being used incorrectly. late 90s early 2000s
<geist>
i used to fight against it, but alas. the language changes over time
<ZetItUp>
comment: "Computers in the 80s were just better..."
<geist>
i do still say i'm going to hack or hacking on that, and if people want to misinterpret it that's their problem
<geist>
that being said i *think* it was worse then. may be that 'hacking' is a bit more understood nowadays to not always refer to nefarious stuff. maybe?
<ZetItUp>
tbh the term "hacking" has been kinda weirdly used since forever, so kinda hard to say what is right or wrong
<geist>
yah
<geist>
i just like to try to keep it in the lexicon as non nefarious since there's not a great term to use otherwise for 'piddling with computer shit'
<ZetItUp>
when i first heard of hacking i thought of green flashy text on a screen
<geist>
or 'intense computer programming' or whatever. it's nice to have generic terms like that
<geist>
yah was just thinking about that the other day, someone mentioned that current gen probabably would never be exposed to monochrome screens, except as retro
<ZetItUp>
ye or doing some sketchy stuff with your code which "works for now" :D
<geist>
so the notion of green or amber screens is basically like a floppy disk nowadays
<ZetItUp>
i wonder what would be a good generic icon to use for Save, instead of a floppy disk these days
<ZetItUp>
a harddrive? usb?
<geist>
usb stick maybe?
<geist>
but it's a bit hard to actually have a unique shape to it
<GeDaMo>
A safe :P
<geist>
a cloud with an arrow pointing into it maybe
<ZetItUp>
or and arrow into a file hmm
<ZetItUp>
an*
<geist>
probably modern design folks would just say 'no save icon, your data simply is'
<ZetItUp>
cloud i think most people would assume you would save it to a cloud service
<geist>
which i fyou think about it if there wasn't such a file centric way of thinking about thigs you could do
<ZetItUp>
i don't think i've used a floppy in 20 years
<geist>
ie, your OS opens a data store, which is some sort of structured object of bits, maybe with multiple alternate streams
<geist>
you manipulate it via memory maps, or a series of transformations
<geist>
clone it, use your own version, etc. whatever you do
<geist>
and then when you close it it simply is
<geist>
or say you open a collection of objects and that gives you some additional transformations you can do
<geist>
atomically clone all of them, change their indexing strategy, remove them all, etc
<geist>
you could really rethink the file centric view
<ZetItUp>
yeah could be nice tbh
<ZetItUp>
it works now, but maybe it starts to become "outdated"
<geist>
maybe it's all just sort of files, but if you break away from the strict C/posixy notions of folders and files and let you treat them more as generic objects that are retained somewhere
<ZetItUp>
Objects into a Storage, where objects doesn't have to be a file etc
<geist>
yah. i always liked a lot of the 80s/90s era handheld thing, specifically stuff like Palm pilots and whatnot where you had these in memory data stores that you could access directly
<geist>
not that it was a good solution in a modern day, but since apps were basically directly manipulating a persistent object in memory it meant the permanence was immediate
<geist>
(and obviously they could corrupt your stuff, no security, etc etc)
<ZetItUp>
hmm maybe have a .bss .data .text etc areas on the disk, each object has a header which points to the location of it's .bss, .data, .text area, hmm may seem kinda slow and would easily break files thou
<ZetItUp>
and i guess you would need to spread out all over the place to read the data
<ZetItUp>
unless you load "commonly used" objects into a .bss, .data etc section in memory
<ZetItUp>
since we hardly use all of our memory all the time these days
<ZetItUp>
so say you have 16gb, reserve the top 1gb for commonly used data and if needed, put it in a swap space
<geist>
you could, for example have the loader take the ELF file object, make a clone of it, relocate it for particular offsets and then actually store that back into the data store
<geist>
maybe with some sort of lower-permenance flag so it could be GCed
<geist>
but then next time around it can look for a pre-relocated version of it and avoid the work
<ZetItUp>
yeah
<geist>
that's sort of a naming thing, but i think the idea that you could index the objects by whatever the primary indexing scheme is, and then have alternate versions of the same object with some secondary indexing scheme is interesting to me
<geist>
version numbers, private copies, modified forms, etc
<GeDaMo>
Has any OS other than Pick used a database as the file system?
<ZetItUp>
i guess with a stream service you could have a decent stream write to certain location on disk so say you start a new word processor document, it sets a ID in a set location on disk, write your changes directly to that, so in case of crash, your data is saved on the disk and when you start again you can start looking where your last stream data for a word process was made
<ZetItUp>
would probably require to pre-occupie some sections thou, like a 4Kb page size, so if you go beyond 4k, you allocate another 4Kb and so on, and next time you start, prompt the user if they want to load the data from the stream section, or destroy it, aka "it was not that important anyway" :D
<ZetItUp>
i don't know, just throwing ideas into the air
<bslsk05>
ronnyegner.wordpress.com: The Oracle Database File System (DBFS) | Ronny Egner's Blog
<ZetItUp>
what i got out of it is that maybe it is good for VERY big storages, but for smaller it seems to be slow
<geist>
i think a fun part about defining an interface that's not C/posixy looking is really rooting out all the edge case semantics
<geist>
IMO that's the real interesting part about fs interfaces. it's one thing to declare you have open/close/read/write but then there are all these edge cases and details about what happens if you do this while that is the case, etc
<geist>
and that's where the real character comes out
<geist>
can you delete a file while it's open? what does it mean to simultaneously append from different threads? what happens when there's a file write error on close? etc
<ZetItUp>
i guess you would need some kind of stream protection or something, like lock this to this pid (incl. it's threads spawned)
<ZetItUp>
i guess you could do something like, if you delete a file that is open, move it's data into ram, delete it from disk and if user saves, create a new object on the disk
<ZetItUp>
would also need some syscall to warn processes that the data is no longer on the disk and that it is living in the RAM
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<immibis>
You find yourself in a position where you deleting a file causes your computer to slow down as everything useful is swapped out to disk to make room for this thing that was supposed to be on disk but isn't
<immibis>
what do you want to do now? > _
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* kingoffrance
something something vms version numbers something something geist will tell us about purplemonkeydishwasher
<kingoffrance>
"and then have alternate versions of the same object " ...this almost sounds mvc ...
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<gog>
purple monkey what
<kingoffrance>
the frogurt is also cursed!
<vdamewood>
kingoffrance: That's bad.
<kingoffrance>
i had a link in my notes to a guy who did a filesystem that used a database. i believe it was all proprietary/demo, no code. but he said performance was great. however, zero interest
<kingoffrance>
basically, companies dont want to rewrite things.
<kingoffrance>
he was trying to get funding
<kingoffrance>
i like the idea of content-addressed (hash) and write-only (immutable) and then you are just "diffing" all day long from prior "versions"
<kingoffrance>
then you get some amount of "dedupe" for free
<kingoffrance>
and then build whatever else on top of that
<sortie>
Neat, I think my new pipes work now
<kingoffrance>
and some amount of "consistency" (hash) for free as well
<sortie>
I can't tell though if they're like considerably slower or if my old desktop is just that slow running my GUI