<pca006132>
the nixos moderation fiasco makes me feel like I am looking at US president election...
<InPhase>
Lately every time we have an election year, big chunks of society act like everything is a US Presidential Election, and carry those behaviors everywhere they go. It's a little frustrating, considering how poorly those election debates and conduct have gone for a while now. On behalf of my country, sorry. ;) The sane among us are wishing to shift it all to a better quality less toxic process.
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<pca006132>
my takeaway is I now know a lot more vocabularies to express frustration
<InPhase>
pca006132: I hope it resolves. I looked at nixos recently and estimated from usage reviews that it's not quite as production-ready stable as I'd want, but that the premise is extremely strong, so I was optimistic it would gradually improve to where I could consider this as a better distribution to use, and end up with easily reproducible installation and setup states. But of course, open source
<InPhase>
project health and growth tends to first and foremost be a social phenomenon.
<pca006132>
oh I am using it on my machines
<pca006132>
if you have any questions feel free to ask me
<InPhase>
Yeah, I actually noticed it on your github page, which was what motivated me to seriously consider it, as I assumed you make smart decisions. :)
<pca006132>
the major issue here is it is quite different from other distros, so build instructions for some projects will not work
<teepee>
my view too, it might be the future of distros but not all applications are ready for that
<pca006132>
and there are some quirks with regard to prebuilt binaries from other distributions, generally they will not work...
<InPhase>
But reviews seem to have it with a bit higher bug rate than I normally encounter. I have limited time to mess with my system these days, and need "just works" to be the overwhelming state of things. Hence the alure of the nixos reproducibility. But hence it also requiring things to almost all just work at first setup.
<pca006132>
yeah using it will require some additional time to tinker with it
<teepee>
InPhase: no apology needed, but I hope everyone sane does that they can to prevent the orange dictator jesus from happening. it's scary enough with the grumpy old white guys we have running round this side of the pond
<pca006132>
there is no default/recommended os configuration afaik
<InPhase>
teepee: Yeah...
<InPhase>
teepee: We've had a lot more "Have you SEEN Germany's history? Come on people" comments going on than is a sign of a healthy state of affairs. I think attention to the problem remains high, but mass confusion and misinformation remains very high as well. Attempts to combat organized disinformation networks and systems have largely failed, which is pretty much a global problem. And then with people
<InPhase>
trying not to panic day-to-day.
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<teepee>
just now read a spot on post on mastodon... trying to translate... "the biggest problem of our time is that people equate reach with proficiency"
<teepee>
yeah, that sounds stupid, even though I have no idea what that is all about
<teepee>
that said just a 2 second glance on the main discussed link has me in the position to never have anything to do with that person if I can help it
<pca006132>
true
<teepee>
as soon as the letters woke appear there's all useful talk lost, and that's from both sides of the discussion
<teepee>
it's like now woke is a worse version of godwins law which should be absolutely impossible by any normal standard
<pca006132>
and the way their moderation team is handling the situation doesn't really inspire confidence...
<pca006132>
when asked about guidelines for a ban, they said it is just human judgement and impossible to write down all cases
<teepee>
with the written word, things get out of hand even more quickly. as people have different interpretations, so escalation is often just 3-4 posts away sadly
<pca006132>
yeah...
<pca006132>
and they think that banning a prominent contributor who "willfully further division in the community" for 6 weeks can help
<pca006132>
the guy just went to reddit
<pca006132>
and things explode
<pca006132>
feel like this kind of stuff just happen regularly
<teepee>
mix in some internet with instant communication and everyone and their dog having an opinion and the explosion is huge
<pca006132>
we had the rust foundation thing 2 years ago or something
<pca006132>
I think a lot of people just want to know why
<pca006132>
and their moderation team doesn't provide that
<teepee>
yes, my theory is we are not ready yet for instant communication with more people than fit on a table in a bar
<pca006132>
the way I see this is that, originally it is something internal
<pca006132>
in their matrix chat or something
<teepee>
writing that down clearly is very difficult, not even our legal people have mastered it, otherwise we would not need supreme courts to finally decide based only on the fact there's nobody above
<pca006132>
and then A is fed up with the attitude of B (for several months or something), tell B to fuck off, literally
<pca006132>
so A was muted
<teepee>
uh, if that's brewing for some time, the interesting question is how to defuse, but it's difficult if you don't have people who are accepted by everyone
<pca006132>
and then some guy bring it to discourse, i.e. a forum, and said A should not be muted, B should be banned because of him repeatedly dismissing other's concerns etc.
<pca006132>
so B was banned for 6 weeks, over all their official channels, i.e. forum and IM
<pca006132>
and B took it to reddit
<pca006132>
boom
<teepee>
at that point it probably was too late to prevent the boom unfortunately
<pca006132>
yeah, and I think moderation should really have limited scope when the behavior is "not too bad"
<pca006132>
(not obviously bad I should say)
<pca006132>
oh and the response from the project lead (after the open letter) is not great either
<pca006132>
quite sad looking at this
<teepee>
agreed, a number of times, I was near some sort of moderation descisions, I usually read those answers twice and most of the time decide to not post/block/whatever
<InPhase>
pca006132: Yeah, that melodrama sounds like spillover from amped up emotions from election season. It causes some people to think they have to take every opportunity to rally others into a state of rage, and that just derails attempts to discuss or work on other things.
<InPhase>
pca006132: And then there's follow-up melodrama, with everyone who is getting moderated for trying to amp up rage thinking the machine is out to suppress their particular views, even if all sides are getting moderated for the same sort of behavior.
<InPhase>
We try to have this baseline belief that people should be able to mention a little politics on the side of other things, or socially. And then that premise falls apart when people don't engage in good faith civility, because the rage promoting habits have been so amped up by other social media mechanisms. It's quite the social toxicity that we've constructed for ourselves, and this is very unfortunate.
<InPhase>
We've been seeing a fair bit of this across IRC in the past 9 months or so.