teepee changed the topic of #openscad to: OpenSCAD - The Programmers Solid 3D CAD Modeller | This channel is logged! | Website: http://www.openscad.org/ | FAQ: https://goo.gl/pcT7y3 | Request features or report bugs: https://goo.gl/lj0JRI | Tutorial: https://bit.ly/37P6z0B | Books: https://bit.ly/3xlLcQq | FOSDEM 2020: https://bit.ly/35xZGy6 | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/openscad | don't ask to ask
<InPhase> peepsalot: All those "add to milestone" "remove from milestone". :)
<InPhase> I mean I understand. We get stuff that goes analogously. But it seems like these kernel choices and the implications definitely got away from the project's grasp.
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<InPhase> They estimate the overhead of "exactness" as 25% to 80%.
<InPhase> "At first sight, this may look like being different in the wrong direction; indeed, naive use of CGAL may result in all the robustness problems indicated above, including crashes at runtime."
<InPhase> Yes, indeed.
<peepsalot> grr, i'm getting aggravated again
<peepsalot> pretty sure CGAL is the most headache inducing library i've ever had to deal with
<dalias> :-p
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<gunnbr__> status?
<othx> Gthx.NET version 2.08 2021-08-14: OK; Up for 2 days, 21 hours, 25 minutes, 24 seconds; mood: pretty good.
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<gunnbr__> status?
<othx> Gthx.NET version 2.22 2021-10-04: OK; Up for 24 seconds; mood: pretty good.
* gunnbr__ cheers!
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<gbruno> [github] kapfab opened issue #3933 (Issue in latest macOS nightly builds (from 2010-10-04)). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/3933
<gbruno> [github] kapfab edited issue #3933 (Issue in latest macOS development snapshots (from 2010-10-04)). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/3933
<gbruno> [github] kapfab edited issue #3933 (Issue in latest macOS development snapshots (from 2010-10-04)). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/3933
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<peepsalot> teepee: whats the latest situation with CGAL versioning? i remember some discussion about version 5+ moving to header only, which should make packaging easier? can we reliably depend on latest versions?
<peepsalot> or are we beholden to debian versioning?
<teepee> ah, difficult question, in theory all the builds are using latest CGAL
<teepee> uh, all except the windows builds?
<peepsalot> openscad-nightly shows library info CGAL 5.0.2 for me
<peepsalot> 5.3 is latest
<peepsalot> teepee: also, without the default cmake build enabling it in some way (ie including as git submodule is only one that comes to mind), then any developer's local builds would not have latest either
<peepsalot> but all i know is when I've suggested submodules in the past i'm told that overriding a package which they have in repos would make debian very mad at us.
<peepsalot> i'm not trying to stir anything up, but would appreciate some clarification on the whole submodule situation I guess.
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<teepee> hmm, i have CGAL version, kernels: 5.2, Cartesian<Gmpq>, Extended_cartesian<Gmpq>, Epeck
<teepee> which package version is that?
<peepsalot> yeah, i omitted the kernel info for brevity. OpenSCAD Version: 2021.10.06.nightly (git dc045a7) ... CGAL version, kernels: 5.0.2, Cartesian<Gmpq>, Extended_cartesian<Gmpq>, Epeck
<teepee> I mean which package? ubuntu 20.04?
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<peepsalot> yeah
<teepee> maybe it's not finding the newer cgal dependencies on OBS
<teepee> it's supposed to use https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:t-paul:cgal/libcgal but it seems it's not installing this as dependency
<teepee> ok, it's building, lets see if that works
<teepee> I don't know if git submodules are a good way to solve this, they seem to be annoying at times, but I'm not completely against using those
<teepee> I mean we already use it for MCAD
<peepsalot> yeah, i just figured that one got a pass because its owned by us
<teepee> my worry is mostly that then there's no wiggle room anymore for platform specific stuff
<InPhase> peepsalot: Current Debian stable is on 5.2.3, and it from the Ubuntu package pool, it looks like the 22.04 LTS will be on 5.2.3 or later.
<InPhase> peepsalot: So I think we can count on that as a minimum going forward for the Linux targets.
<InPhase> We can reasonably advance-target the upcoming releases I think.
<InPhase> I see no clarity anywhere on when 5.3 would roll out.
<teepee> strange, got a build fail mail, but it seems to still build fine
<teepee> huh, cmake says: [ 157s] -- CGAL: 5.00
<teepee> so it's getting somethings else :(
<peepsalot> InPhase: 5.3 has been released https://www.cgal.org/2021/07/06/cgal53/ do you mean there was "no clarity" like ahead of time as to a planned release date?
<InPhase> peepsalot: If it matters when 5.3 rolls out, contacting the maintainer would be reasonable. I don't see any evidence of an IRC presence for the libcgal-dev package maintainer, Joachim Reichel, but his github avatar is a menger sponge, so he must be a decent person. :) His email is reichel@debian.org
<InPhase> peepsalot: I mean no clarity on when it would make it into debian, ubuntu, and derivatives.
<peepsalot> ah
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<InPhase> I assume they follow a complex dependency tree on up the line to figure out when they can boost versions and to what.
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<teepee> argh, cgal 5.3 needs boost 1.71 :(
<teepee> hmm, no I think I'm reading that error wrong, it seems to have boost 1.71 but is missing a subcomponent or so
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<teepee> testing has 5.3 already
<InPhase> Progress. Not sure if that will trickle through in time for Ubuntu 22.04 though.
<teepee> nothing to trickle down, I believe Ubuntu grabs from testing
<InPhase> Ok.
<teepee> so ubuntu dev should already list cgal 5.3 too
<teepee> hmm, "impish" is 21.10?
<teepee> strange that should have 5.3 but it does not
<peepsalot> teepee: so does each CGAL version bump (even a bugfix release) require us to update much of the build configs to pick it up?
<InPhase> Yeah, it's not in the Ubuntu pools. But I'm not sure when that got into debian testing, and if they pull from that when they do so.
<teepee> no, it should not, in theory the builds should grab that dedicated package and run with it as it has a newer version
<peepsalot> i just downloaded AppImage 2021.10.06 and it has CGAL 5.2.2, but there was 5.2.3 bugfix released on 2021.07.06
<teepee> but something is not working right now
<InPhase> This is where I usually look: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/c/cgal/
<teepee> yeah, AppImage is special, it is based on a docker container which is not automatically rebuilt
<peepsalot> ok
<teepee> ubuntu might be in 21.10 freeze?
<teepee> so yeah, it's not all automatic, and it gets more complicated with CGAL breaking builds on old systems regularily
<teepee> I have already 2 patches to get it built for 18.04
<teepee> reverting boost changes and such
<InPhase> 21.10 release is in 4 days.
<peepsalot> so it sounds like theoretically we should be able to use up to at least 5.2 API?
<teepee> I tend to say yes :)
<teepee> we should be able to get latest to work too
<teepee> we have no new release so official package builds are not relevant, they usually don't backport applications
<teepee> everything else we can control and considering CGAL is still the main core library, it's probably reasonable to spend more effort
<teepee> I would not want to do that for each and every library but the geometry engine is the key component :)
<teepee> also macOS build is broken anyway right now :/
<peepsalot> and for my local builds, is there a line i can add to my sources for your obs libcgal repo?
<peepsalot> or is that intended to be part of the source line I already have?
<teepee> no, the other one only is the application and with cgal now being header only I think it's not distributing it as dependency
<teepee> as it's only a cgal-dev package now
<teepee> so ubuntu is strange, looks like the freeze was 2 weeks ago and cgal-5.3 made it into testing in August, so I have no idea why it's not there
<peepsalot> ok, thank you
<teepee> but that does not matter much, there's no new openscad release in 21.10, so that's just a fixed state now
<teepee> ah, snap also still has 5.2, I'll try to update to 5.3 too
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Bump CGAL to version 5.3.). https://github.com/openscad/openscad/commit/72a745e4e5c445c79e3fa481991e6337f27bf6fd
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<teepee> right, tech twitter is strange. lots of retweets for graphscad which does sound interesting but is a gitrepo with 4 commits on a single day in 2017
<teepee> I do like the idea, but it would be even nicer to be more like IceStudio for HDL so nodes are in the core language
<peepsalot> teepee: did you see this clickbait video yet? :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgytQDoaD5M
<othx> peepsalot linked to YouTube video "You can SKIP 3D modeling now" => 1 IRC mentions
<InPhase> Oh my. These GraphScad screenshots are giving me LabVIEW flashbacks.
<peepsalot> SPOILER: for a glorified excel spreadsheet...
<teepee> oh, is that this gcode generator thingy?
<peepsalot> yeah
<peepsalot> sad that its only compatible with MS Excel
<teepee> I've not seen the video as I mostly disagree with his opinions but I've seen some news about the tool and was looking in wonder at the github repo seeing the excel sheet
<InPhase> peepsalot: "Right after we check out today's sponsor, the people that destroyed freenode."
<teepee> it's a good addition to the tool box feature wise as some things are probably better to be expressed directly
<teepee> nah, PIA? they don't have anything to do with that for years
<InPhase> Does he no longer own it?
<teepee> I don't think so
<teepee> "In November 2019, Private Internet Access was acquired by Kape Technologies." no idea who that is
<InPhase> Well, alright. I'm going to remain on guard about those guys for a while anyway, but I will refrain from besmirching them then if he's actually no longer affiliated.
<peepsalot> before I watched it, i thought the vid was gonna be about some crazy AI that can model stuff for you
<teepee> well, being wary of the VPN business in general should be a good thing :)
<peepsalot> imagine my disappointment :P
<teepee> yeah, that's an even deeper drop than I had as I just expected some python script which would be fine
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Merge pull request #3934 from openscad/snap-update-cgal
* teepee crosses fingers for snap to build with cgal 5.3...
<InPhase> peepsalot: Well I endorse more direct gcode generation... But Excel? This is a tool for non-programmers, with a design difficulty process suitable mostly for programmers. Sounds like a worst of both worlds approach.
<peepsalot> yeah its an odd one
<InPhase> Overall that video seemed pretty awkward I think. Like trying to teach calculus on an abacus.
<teepee> aha! [ 196s] -- CGAL: 5.3
<teepee> cgal cmake failed due to missing boost-program-options and boost-thread
<InPhase> So will 5.3 become a local build dependency?
<InPhase> I do not have this yet, but can work on setting this up.
<teepee> right now it even works with 4.9 I believe
<teepee> so that would depend on what API we start using going forward
<teepee> the "blazing fast csg" branch even had a 4.x and 5.x test run
<peepsalot> teepee: yeah that was one of the things that kept me from doing more testing on it, "fast-csg" feature required 5.1+ and 20.04 is on 5.0
<teepee> that was the trigger to update the builds to cgal 5.x, I guess it would be worth it
<teepee> specifically even 5.2.3 as I seem to remember that has some additional fixes for issues found in the fast-csg branch
<RoyK> hm - it'd be interesting if we had something like openscad to do this instead of a bloody excel sheet ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgytQDoaD5M
<othx> RoyK linked to YouTube video "You can SKIP 3D modeling now" => 2 IRC mentions
<teepee> I don't see how this would fit into openscad, but having a usable tool would be great
<teepee> but then I did not really have a closer look at how it expresses the model, maybe I'll try to watch the video :)
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<teepee> peepsalot: 20.04 build finished, it should now show cgal 5.3
<peepsalot> nice, confirmed!
<teepee> cool, my debian/testing package is still building :)
<gbruno> [github] t-paul pushed 1 modifications (Remove Ubuntu 18.10 and 19.10.). https://github.com/openscad/openscad.github.com/commit/fdffc2e0028c664d023d69116e83b493dd0c576b
<InPhase> RoyK: The base for better tools already exists: https://github.com/fragmuffin/pygcode/wiki/Writing-gcode
<InPhase> RoyK: I don't know if functions for circles and arbitrary functional form traces exist, but that part is so trivial you could finish it in an hour or two including testing and demos.
<teepee> hmm, that looks way too low level from what I've imagined, is that excel similar?
<InPhase> That excel appears to be basically that, with one row per thing.
<InPhase> Except they have rows for "do a circle" and "trace this parametric function".
<InPhase> Which is trivially addable to the Python thing.
<teepee> so it only mean you don't have to remember the gcode numbers and have full names?
<InPhase> Pretty much.
<InPhase> Also, abstraction so you can use different gcode outputs.
<teepee> trace parametric function sounds more like what I would want to see
<InPhase> GCode is actually designed to be very easy to use and to script, it's just ugly.
<InPhase> If you only want to support one type of output, the interfaces for abstracting it out can be paper thin.
<teepee> I've generated 2.5D generated from java code :)
<teepee> the low level assembler part is pretty useful
<teepee> but for actually using this for designs, some more high level support would be nice
<InPhase> Right. The spreadsheet did not do that.
<InPhase> I mean it had loops, but loops are built into that Python approach.
<teepee> what I had was basically a 2d path that was extruded + a bitmap that was used to imprint the image on the way up
<teepee> that should be doable then with the full-control thingy too I suppose
<InPhase> One could probably do that in that OpenSCAD thingy as well. :)
<teepee> not so easy and it's difficult to slice as it's intended to be single or 2 path only
<teepee> cura tends to fail on those completely
<teepee> one option was to say make it 0.6mm thickness (with 0.4mm nozzle) so it needs to just travel back and forth
<teepee> but overextrude for the 0.6mm
<teepee> argh, cgal still bugs out on make install :(
<teepee> right, supposed to be in 5.3.1 https://github.com/CGAL/cgal/issues/5852
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