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<discocaml>
<shon_18152> @yawaramin Upper bounds are added to existing published packages when breaking changes are discovered, but not preemptively.
<companion_cube>
ie too late
<discocaml>
<shon_18152> I mean, often (and ideally always) these would be added before the breaking change is published. Tho guess it is quite clear we have different feeling about the current opam way -- and I am mindful of your greater experience and stake, given how many useful packages you maintain 🙂 -- my low-key conviction remains convicted tho, and not without reasons 🙂
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<dh`>
if you add upper bounds pessimistically they require manual attention everywhere for each new release of every package
<dh`>
that is extremely expensive
<dh`>
(and therefore it doesn't happen, so everything goes stale and then if you need to update something for an external reason, like a security patch, you have a world of brokeness to tackle all at once)
<companion_cube>
the real issue is that breakage happens on `opam upd`, not on the equivalent of `cargo update`
<companion_cube>
oh yeha but at least for that we have dependabot or warnings about stale dependencies
<companion_cube>
it's just, you can do it in 2hr instead of in the middle of your interrupted flow
<dh`>
there's no good solution for this problem
<dh`>
well
<dh`>
don't do opam update in the middle of your flow, that seems foolish
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<companion_cube>
well sometimes you need a new dep
<companion_cube>
that might be more of a skill issue, but installing a dep might sometimes try to upgrade other deps without apparent need :/
<dh`>
that's so new it's not already in your opam data?
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> dh: 'they require manual attention everywhere for each new release of every package' - not if you bound on SemVer
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> this is quite common eg a new version of the package got published
<dh`>
that only restricts the attention to versions that aren't potentially breaking
<dh`>
which doesn't help a lot
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> no it does the opposite. it restricts manual work to versions that _are_ potentially breaking
<dh`>
er yeah
<dh`>
too many nots
<dh`>
but that's still most updates in most library packages
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> nope, in my experience at least, major version updates are rare
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> at least in the OCaml world
<dh`>
and what might be breaking has to be very conservative in order of it to actually avoid breaks
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<discocaml>
<yawaramin> OCa mlpeople are not continuously rearchitecting everything and churning the ecosystem
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> and adding the major version bound avoids the actual breaks
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> yes, at the cost of having to manually update it which imho is worth it
<dh`>
I don't agree
<dh`>
but my perspective is influenced by working on a large packaging system
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> my perspective is from the POV of the OCaml ecosystem which has the properties i described
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<dh`>
that may be a fair point
<dh`>
(how many packages are there in opam?)
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<discocaml>
<yawaramin> couple of thousand, i guess?
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Oh wow thats alot more than I thought.
<dh`>
pkgsrc, the system I was referring to, has just under 30000
<dh`>
which is not meant as bragging or anything, but it's a different scale
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> for sure
<companion_cube>
30000 unique packages? or counting multiple distinct versions per package
<dh`>
and we have to deal with a broad range of upstreams
<dh`>
mostly packages, there are mostly not multiple versions at once
<dh`>
though there are for some things because you can't help it
<dh`>
my devel tree has ~20000 package descriptions
<dh`>
so maybe 20000 is a better count
<dh`>
(30000 is the number of distinct build results)
<dh`>
most of the difference is stuff like the same python modules built for different python versions
<companion_cube>
I count 23k opam files in opam-repo, because it keeps all versions
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> apparently Nix has more than 120k packages
<dh`>
we specifically don't do that, and I'm not at all surprised nix is a lot larger
<dh`>
we run this whole thing with like half a dozen or so active committers
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<discocaml>
<JM> I'm not against in principle, but again that's a lot of trust in somebody else interpretation of SemVer.
<discocaml>
<JM> (in OCaml) I'm not afraid of API change, while annoying the compiler will yell at me. And at that point I can either decide to stick an upper bond or fix the issues.
<discocaml>
<JM> But how do I know your micro update didn't change some semantic in a way you consider compatible but that will break my app?
<discocaml>
<JM> And that's even touching the projects stuck in 0.x because they realise SemVer is hard
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<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Help I've lost the ability to generate documentation. `dune build @doc` does not create html pages. The only thing it does is put `index.mld` inside `_build/install/default/doc/<project_name>/odoc-pages`. What can I do next to investigate?
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Is this suspicious? `Actual targets: - alias @@default`
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<discocaml>
<lukstafi> With `opam install .` I get an error `File "doc/dune", line 9, characters 3-84:` a syntax error that used to be there, but that's from an earlier experiment, this file doesn't exist anymore.
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<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> I tried to set Ocamllsp by typing ''opam install ocaml-lsp-server''. i tried multiple times to reisntalling it, however, when i click on the button named "switch implementation/interface", It says that "ocamllsp is not running". I tried to write in search bar by typing ctrl+shifh+P and "Ocaml: Select a sandbox for this workspace", but still when i click it it says --> An error occurred starting the language server `ocamllsp`. Sandbox initi
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> With `opam install .` I get an error `File "doc/dune", line 9, characters 3-84:` a syntax error that used to be there, but that's from an earlier experiment, this file doesn't exist anymore. Edit: got it, I need to submit the changes maybe.
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> With `opam install .` I get an error `File "doc/dune", line 9, characters 3-84:` a syntax error that used to be there, but that's from an earlier experiment, this file doesn't exist anymore. Edit: got it, I needed to submit the cleanup changes.
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Are you under VS Code? Can you stop and start the lsp server? (Go to the command palette and type "OCaml Language Server" to see the commands)
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> PS C:\Users\user\Ocaml> OCaml Language Server
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> PS C:\Users\user\Ocaml> it does nothing
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Terminal `opam install ocaml-lsp-server` says it's installed and `OCaml: Restart Language Server` still fails? And when you click in the OCaml platform pane, `Select a Sandbox` and select the current sandbox?
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> (I mean the current switch.)
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> it cant run ocamllsp on sandbox
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> and when i click on switch, it says that ocamllsp is not running
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Sorry! Not an expert.
<discocaml>
<lukstafi> Regarding my problem, `dune build @doc` not doing anything, I just verified that it still persists on Windows native but doesn't happen on WSL or Mac.
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<discocaml>
<dubious245> Oh I had this yesterday.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Are you using windows?
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> yes
<discocaml>
<dubious245> The command they give is only added your environment variables on a per session basis. You can add them manually with the gui on windows like I did. I am not familiar enough with powershell on windows to fix the command itself.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Run just this part of the command in powershell to get a list of environment variables. `(& opam env) - split '\r?\n'`
<discocaml>
<dubious245> No space between - and split.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> My bad
<discocaml>
<dubious245> On my phone. :mbDerp:
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<discocaml>
<dubious245> Once you have those variables you can search 'edit system variables' in windows and bring up the ui. Should be thay bottom right button.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Once you have those variables you can search 'edit system variables' in windows and bring up the ui. Should be that bottom right button.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> If you still need help in an hour ping me and I should be back at my computer.
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> i get this fromthat command
<discocaml>
<dddavid0361> even i had to delete some
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<discocaml>
<contificate> IRC users loving this, no doubt 😏
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Please dont post that whole thing in discord. :mbDerp:
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<discocaml>
<dubious245> Oh I cant make threads.
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<discocaml>
<._null._> Not sure how these interact with the IRC bridge
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Does the IRC bridge only work in this channel?
<discocaml>
<._null._> Yes
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<discocaml>
<dubious245> Datoia ping me in advanced-help if you need more help rather than here.
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Just stop using IRC, no problem
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Some people want to use IRC.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> It doesn't hurt anything.
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> how are you guys using irc these days? I had to stop using irc because there's no decent smartphone solution (yes there's lots of bots and other hacks for dealing with reconnecting constantly)
<dmoerner>
still znc with whatever mobile client
<discocaml>
<kinokasai> I believe it's good to have a non-commercial instant messaging solution
<discocaml>
<kinokasai> that said, how's matrix these days?
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> a friend of mine says thelounge is pretty good. kind of a self-hosted chat webapp that you log into and it maintains your irc connections. it adds modern discord-like features that interoperate with irc
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> XMPP would be much better
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> IRC is just a relic of the past
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> it's a little funny that multiple billion dollar businesses were created because irc couldn't be coordinated to solve the smartphone problem
<discocaml>
<contificate> Discord is great because it's where lots of different communities are, so we can all exercise our multiple personalities at different times of the day
<dmoerner>
so this bridge is to discord? i always assumed it was to matrix
<discocaml>
<dubious245> I am seeing this on discord.
<dmoerner>
interesting, i only use irc regularly
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> I wish IRC users would switch to the modern IRC, i.e. XMPP
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> I'd gladly use it instead of Discord but no one seems to use XMPP for some reason
<discocaml>
<dubious245> I have never heard of XMPP.
<discocaml>
<dubious245> What is it and how does it work?
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> it's an open standard instant messaging solution that sucks
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> IMO
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> there's a bunch of implementations and they're all kind of meh. the situation is probably a lot better in 2025 than when i looked into it last in 2014
<companion_cube>
XMPP is horribly fragmented, IRC isn't, and IRC networks are somehow more alive
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<discocaml>
<mbacarella> one obnoxious detail about XMPP is that it sends XML messages and if you want to write a simple parser you ... read until you come to a '>' and then try to parse the message. if it fails to parse, continue reading '>'. it's maddeningly inefficient.
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> If the fragmentation in question are the XEP, then I think it's good to mention that base XMPP which all XMPP servers implement is already more extensive than IRC
<discocaml>
<deepspacejohn> I had no idea xmpp was still a thing. The last time I heard about it was maybe 2010ish?
<discocaml>
<contificate> only people who ever wanted to talk to me on XMPP were cybercriminals, to be honest
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> I mean it will continue being a thing at least as the protocol used by WhatsApp, but yeah there are still servers running and some nice clients
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Oh wow it's toting around an xml parser to work?
<discocaml>
<dubious245> That's kind of funny.
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> I tried getting back on it recently but it's still plagued by its biggest issue which happens to be non-technical, which is lack of users
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> contificate: so me :3
<discocaml>
<contificate> I've told you before, Gooby, I'll speak to you here and on BetterHelp but nowhere else
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> XMPP's biggest use case is probably corporate environments tbh. it's a solution for not letting privileged data leave your walls and you can also guarantee you're compliance logging it
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<discocaml>
<mbacarella> also I guess cybercriminals like @contificate said
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Does it have a vendor and sales people? Otherwise Corporations wont go for it.
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> I'm sure there's lots of terrible on-prem slack clones with sales people nowadays
<discocaml>
<mbacarella> (though you can just self-host Mattermost now)
<companion_cube>
you don't need the federated aspect for a corporate env
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Most companies I've worked at just use Teams.
<theblatte>
how can I convince opam's sandbox (bwrap) to keep dirs around for the purpose of installing packages? I have a binary in my project that I need a package to see at install time but it's not there in the sandbox
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Personally I just think that XMPP has all the dogmatic features people like from IRC as well as some technical features that are just basic at this point like an out-of-the-box chat history, which IRC lacks (no I don't want to stay logged in 24/7 to have logs). There are also lots of extensions, which of course need to be implemented by individual servers, but I find that meaningful extensions are supported by majority of them, and amon
<discocaml>
<contificate> kinda nice part of IRC is you can keep it on the DL at work etc. everybody just thinks you're using some Rust CLI tool because you don't understand git (or similar), but you're actually wasting valuable time talking nonsense on libera
<discocaml>
<dubious245> socializing is a valuable use of your time.
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Well, certainly not of your corporate time
<discocaml>
<dubious245> If my time was valuable to them they wouldn't make it such an immiserating experience to work for them.
<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Unfortunately it's hard to represent human satisfaction on an Excel spreadsheet 😔
<discocaml>
<dubious245> Isn't that what the number of pizza parties field is for?
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<theblatte>
nevermind, bwrap didn't like that the directory I wanted was (under) a symlink
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<discocaml>
<shon_18152> corporations are build on socialitly, so they too require socializing. 🙂
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<discocaml>
<gooby_diatonic> Socialising with your coworkers over a cup of coffee, not with strangers online
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<discocaml>
<yawaramin> or with a bunch of strangers who can finance their own trips to the Marrakesh retreat 😁
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<companion_cube>
what about with coworkers online?
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> socializing with coworkers online? to each their own i guess, not my cup of tea though
<companion_cube>
that's the reality of remote work, heh
<discocaml>
<shon_18152> Also working in/with OSS, I think it is more widely recognized you can't clearly cleave community from labor?
<discocaml>
<dubious245> My boss is pretty cool.
<discocaml>
<yawaramin> if you're getting paid to do it, it's labour
<discocaml>
<shon_18152> I guess this kind of thing is naturally very sensitive to working conditions and industry and personality and work style and a billion other factors? Most places I've worked in tech would not fault you for engaging in tech-related activities. And, tbh, I would probably not be on discord if not for work 😵💫
<discocaml>
<shon_18152> *tech related, online social activities (provided you were getting your work done)
<discocaml>
<dubious245> I have read through docs/tutorials at work for personal projects and my boss has came up and we chatted about it in a 'oh that's interesting' sort of way.
<dh`>
there are many companies that will hire someone because they're prominent in some online community and expect them to drop it the moment they start
<dh`>
rationality isn't part of it
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<dmbaturin>
In the multicore runtime, an exception that occurs in one domain stops all domains, right?
<companion_cube>
maybe in the domain itself? I'm not sure
<companion_cube>
I use multiple domains but only in threads inside these domains
<dmbaturin>
I'm planning to move a project to do stuff in parallel and now trying to build a mental model of how things work.
<companion_cube>
idk I just use moonpool cause I dislike domains :p