JasonRogers[m] has joined #jruby
<JasonRogers[m]> Hi all. Sorry if this has been asked and answered, but anyone know what's up with http://mavengems.jruby.org/releases and whether or not it's coming back online, or if it's being replaced with something else?
<JasonRogers[m]> We have it in our Maven settings and it started failing this week, at least. When I head to that site there's some parked domain message there.
<headius> Wow what the heck
<headius> Yeah I don't know anything about that park domain, but file an issue and will try to get it back up. It's just a matter of running a simple service and it's moved around a bit over the years
<headius> s/park/parked/
<JasonRogers[m]> File a ticket in the jruby Github project?
<headius> Yes please
<JasonRogers[m]> Created https://github.com/jruby/jruby/issues/7194, but I failed to create a simple failing project. My test project (to show the issue) isn't failing. :(
<JasonRogers[m]> Only our projects being built in Docker images are failing. So, there seems to be more to this picture than meets the eye.
<headius> Okay, I remember we addressed the shutdown of some related servers a few years ago but I can't recall whether we or someone else are running this server. Given the parking page that's there right now I'm guessing somebody else was running it and probably just lost track of it
<headius> enebo controls the domain for jruby.org so tomorrow perhaps he and I can look into this and figure out what is or is not running
<JasonRogers[m]> I believe I've tracked down the issue of failures within our Docker image. Not only is that repo no longer available, but there's an old version of json-schema that is unresolvable via the GemInstaller bit of that de.saumya.mojo:gem-maven-plugin
<JasonRogers[m]> I can see the 2.8.1 version that we depend on in rubygems.org, but for some reason the Maven plugin is failing to see it.
<JasonRogers[m]> So, upgrading to json-schema:3.0.0 makes our builds pass (though, I don't know yet what it does to our application).
<JasonRogers[m]> Thanks fellas.
<headius> Oh that's interesting. Update the issue with this info so anyone else will find it
joast has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
subbu[m] has quit [Quit: You have been kicked for being idle]
GaurishSharma[m] has quit [Quit: You have been kicked for being idle]
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: I am a bit confused and know almost nothing about how this works. So updating some deps ended up making stuff work again?
<JasonRogers[m]> I know it sounds really strange enebo ... Removing the http://mavengems.jruby.org/releases repo in Maven settings, and adding mavengem:https://rubygems.org was step 1. The 2nd step was to upgrade json-schema from 2.8.1 to 3.0.0. When Maven looked for the 2.8.1 version of the gem it got some HTML output instead of the tarball thus causing the plugin to fail when it tried to copy the gem contents into the JAR. The 2nd bit is very confusing
<JasonRogers[m]> to me because I can certainly see that version in rubygems.org, but thankfully we were able to update that version without breaking our app.
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: so we do have the functionality in rubygems.org now but the configuration in maven/pom to use it is substantially different? Is that a reasonable summary
subbu has joined #jruby
<JasonRogers[m]> enebo: you have to use the mavengems wagon in order to pull them in. But, that's existed for a while.
<JasonRogers[m]> I suppose I could add that as the solution on the issue and close it out.
<JasonRogers[m]> Perhaps not necessary to run the other mirror?
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: I think so long as you end up with the same result then I think we should figure out the best way to documenting this
<JasonRogers[m]> (sorry my responses are slow, the element.io website doesn't notify me of messages or taggings)
<enebo[m]> That infrastructure is essentially gone and we would need to set it up again
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: no problems
<JasonRogers[m]> That definitely sounds like a lot of work for little reward.
<enebo[m]> yeah. I am hoping something explaining how to change pom/config to get same result could be something we at least put on our wiki or at least in that issue
<enebo[m]> Let's face it people just google for the error and if it shows up in that issue with a reasonable explanation of what needs to be changed then I think this is a time-limited issue where people just need to update their projects
<JasonRogers[m]> OK. Let me update the issue with that info. Thanks!
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: and thanks for figuring this out and basically doing all the leg work :)
<JasonRogers[m]> Not at all ... you guys have done the real work! I'm a huge JRuby fan! Thanks enebo and headius !!
<enebo[m]> Jason Rogers: thanks. Appreciate that.
<enebo[m]> and apparently I stopped writing complete sentences recently
<JasonRogers[m]> Hah! I'd buy you guys a beer if I could, but hopefully my adulation will be reward enough.
demon36[m] has quit [Quit: You have been kicked for being idle]
subbu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
subbu has joined #jruby
<headius> ๐Ÿ‘
<puritylake[m]> Is there an issue raised for not being able to run mvnw on windows?
<puritylake[m]> Getting a ClassNotFoundException from maven-wrapper.jar in the .mvn folder
<puritylake[m]> It's the main class it is looking for apparently
<enebo[m]> puritylake: I don't know. Probably not but I guess search for mvnw
<puritylake[m]> Doesn't look like it, I don't see what the issue is with the file though
<enebo[m]> I can see if I can repro on my windows machine...I will have to swap over to it
<puritylake[m]> No rush, running maven installed on the system still works but just thought I'd check if anyone else was having this issue
<enebo[m]> So sqlite3 in arjdbc before: 7650 runs, 21357 assertions, 36 failures, 38 errors, 18 skips
<enebo[m]> after: 7650 runs, 21153 assertions, 35 failures, 19 errors, 18 skips
<enebo[m]> so improvement
<enebo[m]> It is always weird to see less assertions when you know more is working
<puritylake[m]> Nice, good to see those numbers go down
<enebo[m]> sqlite3 is generally the simplest of the 3 dbs to update
<enebo[m]> kares: I know we are more autoreconnect within Java than normal cext AR so I am not sure what flakiness I am adding by making closed? (which really is just the mirror of open? which has same comment). Seeing our #execute renegotioate connections if they are lost happening in Java knowing this seems to also be happening in Ruby in generic AR code makes me message you :)
<enebo[m]> puritylake it grabbed maven 3.8.1 jar unpacked it and built JRuby. So I guess works for me. I happen to be using Java JDK 17
<puritylake[m]> I see my issue, my path had a space and ' character in it
<enebo[m]> ah
<puritylake[m]> Yup moving folder fixes it
<puritylake[m]> headius: looking at your issue https://github.com/jruby/jruby/issues/7177 I find the japanese characters don't show up even in just printing, just weird characters for me or question marks in the case of printing
<puritylake[m]> It doesn't apply to just strscan, this could also be an issue on my side though
<enebo[m]> puritylake: I believe an issue here might be that muliple byte characters on windows get transcoded to an output encoding for display in a console
<enebo[m]> like CP1252
<enebo[m]> which for ASCII is no big deal
<enebo[m]> but for, let's say UTF-8, it needs to transcode UTF-8 to CP-1252 or something like that
<enebo[m]> I suspect this is a larger generic issue
<enebo[m]> puritylake: if you can make a utf-8 method and NoMethodError like ```-e "ใƒ†ใ‚นใƒˆ"```
<enebo[m]> Although if that works it may be because a command-line string is cp1252
<enebo[m]> so put that into a file test.rb and run it
<enebo[m]> If that does not display properly then it is a generic issue with multibyte chars (mbc is shorthand for that)
<enebo[m]> mbc being display as UTF-8 looks like garbage if you just dump it to a cp-1252 terminal
<puritylake[m]> Same problem it seems
<enebo[m]> I have repeated cp-1252 here multiple times but I am not sure how wide-chars in windows get presented to a terminal
<enebo[m]> cp-1252 is similar to iso8859_1 which is largely just an 8bit (single byte) representation
<enebo[m]> I may have known at some point :) but wchar in windows presented to terminals display properly
<enebo[m]> they are not utf-8 so I think my explanation above is the same
<puritylake[m]> Interesting
<puritylake[m]> So is it possible for java to print in wchar?
<enebo[m]> My memory is remembering that wchar is sort of like utf-16
<enebo[m]> I just remember to terminate wchar you need \0\0
<enebo[m]> We have a huge transcoding system built on top of C Ruby's encoding data so we can probably represent anything
<enebo[m]> but I just don't know how we handle this (or if we do). I just remembered that you cannot just dump utf-8 data into a windows terminal and have it look right
<puritylake[m]> Text in computers definitely is an area I am not very good with, well international text being solely english speaker
<puritylake[m]> * text being that I am a solely english
<enebo[m]> yeah text is horrible to support
<enebo[m]> lopex: perhaps you can tell us what I am saying above :)
<enebo[m]> lopex: windows transcodes output for display in a windows console right?
<lopex[m]> what do I know
<lopex[m]> you mean full unicode support ?
<lopex[m]> technically CharSequence support all codepoints
<enebo[m]> AHAHA
<lopex[m]> but for example String#charAt only supports UCS-2
<enebo[m]> UCS-2
<enebo[m]> lopex: The specific use case is a UTF-8 method name NoMethodError should display those characters in a human-readable way as an error method in a windows window
<enebo[m]> lopex: you have already helped
<lopex[m]> it's like utf-16 without surrogates
<enebo[m]> puritylake: wchar is UCS-2 encoded
<enebo[m]> lopex: All I remembered was it was terminated with two 0's :)
<enebo[m]> To think I mostly implemented win32ole and I cannot remember any of this stuff
<lopex[m]> but there may be more diffreences between utf-16 and ucs-2
<enebo[m]> Windows has never been my thing
<lopex[m]> like is there endianness in ucs-2 ?
<enebo[m]> lopex: does windows run on different endian machines?
<lopex[m]> technbically there should
<enebo[m]> I would not be surprised but I don't know
<lopex[m]> wchar is juz like short in c right ?
<lopex[m]> two bytes
<puritylake[m]> That's what I had always assumed
<enebo[m]> yeah I think it is 2 bytes
<enebo[m]> So I don't really get how that works without surrogates
<lopex[m]> so the double zero makes sense
<lopex[m]> well, it doesnt support full unicode
<enebo[m]> 2^16-1 chars?
<lopex[m]> so it has to have smaller planes for codepoints
<lopex[m]> unicode is 21 afaik
<enebo[m]> I am confused but I suppose this does not matter
<lopex[m]> yeah
<lopex[m]> 65,536 - well with zero
<enebo[m]> terminator counts
<lopex[m]> "The characters in UCS-2 are synchronized to the Basic Multilingual Plane in Unicode."
<lopex[m]> well, I know what BMP is but
<lopex[m]> what does it mean syncchonized...
<enebo[m]> well what UCS-2 is ... is not as important as how we represent strings as errors in JRuby
<lopex[m]> I would assume for majority of cases to work just like utf-16
<enebo[m]> I make the string using Ruby String now (using the str() utility method) so the string is a consistent encoding. The Java makes it into characters and it gets barfed out onto the screen
<enebo[m]> So for the common example...NoMethodError will be UTF-8 characters when we raise
<enebo[m]> but it does not display the text clearly
<enebo[m]> So we are missing something which says on windows it should be UCS-2 if printing to a console window
<lopex[m]> you mean total garbage ?
<enebo[m]> If it is printing anywhere else it stays UTF-8
<lopex[m]> so maybe endianness then ?
<enebo[m]> puritylake: It looks like garbage or is it escaped values?
<puritylake[m]> When printing directly with puts it's 3 question marks, with the errorr it is random symbols
<puritylake[m]> s/errorr/error/
<enebo[m]> yeah neat
<lopex[m]> hmm
<enebo[m]> ok that is a useful fact
<lopex[m]> java is big endian right ?
<enebo[m]> puts is not displaying right either
<lopex[m]> puritylake: even plain ascii chars ?
<enebo[m]> no that works
<enebo[m]> it is mbc
<lopex[m]> I mean, from where do they come ?
<enebo[m]> but we can just say utf-8 non=ascii
<enebo[m]> yeah I am going to pop over to windows to make sure I verify this
<lopex[m]> ascii -> utf-16 is only affected by endianneness
<lopex[m]> is there a bom in somewhere ?
<lopex[m]> also, on java versions >= 9 java uses compact strings
<enebo[m]> ok so puts is supposed to transcode to the console on windows
<enebo[m]> It is putting ? which means it has no idea how to transcode that
<lopex[m]> but who the hells knows what it comes through
<enebo[m]> but we see the ? because it is aware it needs to do this
<enebo[m]> The nomethoderror is actually a bit stranger
<enebo[m]> I think it is not trying to transcode at all and is just dumping the utf-8 to the screen
<enebo[m]> I am actually a bit surprised the puts failed on windows
<enebo[m]> The good news is we obviously have code which is trying to do the right thing
<enebo[m]> in the case of puts
<enebo[m]> if (Platform.IS_WINDOWS && isStdio() && System.console() != null) {
<enebo[m]> return rbW32WriteConsole(bytes, start, length, encoding);
<enebo[m]> }
<enebo[m]> This is in OpenFile.java
<lopex[m]> I see there index error
<lopex[m]> enebo: you mean it ends up as ruby symbol there ?
<enebo[m]> lopex: this is write in IO and if it is writing to windows console it tries:
<enebo[m]> System.console().printf("%s", RubyEncoding.decode(bytes, start, length, encoding.getCharset()));
<enebo[m]> So it looks we just let Java handle this detail for us
<enebo[m]> I swear this used to work
<enebo[m]> I will not mention Charlie by handle since he is at the airport but he changed how this works last year
<enebo[m]> It actually looks more correct now but we used to just do asJavaString() on a RubyString
<enebo[m]> I could also be wrong
<enebo[m]> puritylake: as it stands figuring out why puts is not displaying to console is higher value than error messages not printing out. With that said I guess when we print out exceptions we must bypass Ruby IO to do that or we would see the same ???
<enebo[m]> So maybe look at the rbW32WriteConsole method or possibly even just look at other issues if this is looking too hairy
<enebo[m]> The actual problem is the charsequence we think we are making is not right
<enebo[m]> or what we are expecting of System.console().printf() is not working as expected
<enebo[m]> In both cases I would be annoyed to see wrong text showing up in a windows console but it would not prevent me from running a Rails app
<enebo[m]> It would just make debugging it challenging if there were lots of mbc text and I depended on the console
<enebo[m]> I could still look in the log file
<enebo[m]> but if I was making a command-line app on windows this would be a show-stopper
<enebo[m]> I just suspect that is not many people
<puritylake[m]> Honestly looking through this, I don't think I could figure it out, at least in a timely manner
<puritylake[m]> * at least not in a
<enebo[m]> puritylake: yeah and that's fine. This is a more complicated thing
<enebo[m]> if you can run spec:ruby:fast or test:mri and see windows specific failures there are oodles
<puritylake[m]> I'll give that a go
<enebo[m]> lopex: how are you doing?
<lopex[m]> enebo: surprisingly quite well nowadays, thanks for asking
<lopex[m]> last year learned quite a bit about cryptography, needed it for work (banking)
<lopex[m]> and about those damned clouds
<lopex[m]> enebo: also we have a new trend here, craft vodka :P
<headius> Wat
<enebo[m]> HAHA
<enebo[m]> lopex: straight vodka is a neutral spirit so I am guessing it is about having the right flavors added to it
<lopex[m]> those are too goods for driks seriously
<lopex[m]> *drinks
<enebo[m]> driks too
<lopex[m]> well I dont have to many oportunities now though
<enebo[m]> I am not much of a spirits guy. I find it too hard on my gut
<lopex[m]> covid vodka
<enebo[m]> I can make out the covid on the bottle
<lopex[m]> yeah, I taste it like four times a year now
<lopex[m]> mostly family parties
<enebo[m]> "was used to describe high-percentage drinks that were given to sick people to "revive" them."
<enebo[m]> your brother still brewing?
<lopex[m]> enebo: on a beer side of things I still like ipas, but I'm leaning towards barleys more and more
<enebo[m]> I like barley wines but not frequently
<lopex[m]> rum a ged are the best for me I think
<lopex[m]> and I hate those hazy ipas
<enebo[m]> I made coquito rum drink this winter
<enebo[m]> I bought some flavored coquito rum then actually made a knock off of it
<enebo[m]> since it is a traditional recipe
<enebo[m]> (fwiw I like ordinary american IPAs and find hazy IPAs to be ok)
<enebo[m]> HAHAH WOW
<lopex[m]> aged in wine barrels
<enebo[m]> yeah and nitro
<enebo[m]> and with cherries
<enebo[m]> There is a lot going on there
<enebo[m]> If only they also added some hot peppers and smoked malt
<lopex[m]> haha, well, that's how the industry changed
<enebo[m]> but I believe you that it was good
<lopex[m]> weird, but good
<lopex[m]> not exceptionally good though
<enebo[m]> I enjoy people going out there and making their own thing
<lopex[m]> for the name :P
<enebo[m]> 16.1% no less
<lopex[m]> but interesting, since you could really feel the red wine there
<lopex[m]> yeah, how do you call it when the water is frozen out ?
<enebo[m]> yeah I don't recall...frozen distillation?
<lopex[m]> yeah, it's a fad now here too
<enebo[m]> yeah 16.1% is not simple to get to with just yeast
<enebo[m]> but there are so many high abv beers out there that manage it
<lopex[m]> ah
<lopex[m]> right ?
<lopex[m]> ah
<lopex[m]> freeze-distilling
<enebo[m]> yeah I think it is all the same thing. you get around freezing and remove the non-liquid
<enebo[m]> water freezes before the alcohol
<lopex[m]> yeah I know
<enebo[m]> yeah
<lopex[m]> but still you might get some losses :P
<enebo[m]> you can lick the ice
<lopex[m]> and god knows how the extract reacts
<enebo[m]> Most beers at 16% start to get a flavor like a liqeur
<lopex[m]> enebo: you still brew at home ?
<enebo[m]> so it is not too surprisnig to take a barley wine as they are already pretty sweet
<enebo[m]> toffee and all that
<lopex[m]> yeah, but that one at relatively low temps you could only feel the heat
<enebo[m]> I have not in the last year but I did last year...once
<lopex[m]> in the throat
<lopex[m]> jeeze I had to look up how do I write throat
<enebo[m]> heh
<lopex[m]> and I know words like larynx and pelvis
<enebo[m]> blame it on age
<enebo[m]> and not that english is your second or third language
<lopex[m]> I was about to say very same thing
<lopex[m]> *words
<lopex[m]> better is a history
<enebo[m]> wow just looked up your covid numbers
<enebo[m]> looks like things are really pretty good or the government is lying
<lopex[m]> after omicron those went down significantly in EU and US
<lopex[m]> even in JAN in became bovious is the end of things
<lopex[m]> like more contagious and less pathogenic
<lopex[m]> standard path
<enebo[m]> more contagious than measles and about as deadly as the flu
<lopex[m]> not as deadly
<lopex[m]> not even close now
<lopex[m]> and I'm not into conspiracy thories :P
subbu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<lopex[m]> I dont get what China does now though
<enebo[m]> ifr of covid is what now? 0.1
<enebo[m]> I think flu is 0.04 but covid may have dropped more
<enebo[m]> but of course this is an averaged statistic. If you are not vaccinated it is probably many multiples higher than the flu
<lopex[m]> well which covid
<enebo[m]> Although we are "mostly" talking about older folks
<lopex[m]> omicron replaced all old strains
<enebo[m]> omicron
<enebo[m]> delta was almost 10x higher ifr
<enebo[m]> In any case I think my issue is there is no guarantee next variant will even come from omicron
<lopex[m]> well here i Poland out government is so fucking incompetent they cant even lie propertly
<lopex[m]> it's like a big mess
<enebo[m]> BA.2 is taking over BA.1 and so that is ancestral but Delta and omicron where related waaaaay back
<lopex[m]> but the rest of EU came to the same conslusion, GB leading the way
<enebo[m]> Until omicron every spike had a new variant where you tracked their ancestry they effectively were not related
<lopex[m]> I heard the peak for omicron in west EU was in march
<lopex[m]> from different sources
<enebo[m]> which if that happens again then we can maybe go back to and ifr which is 100x worse than omicron...or 100x better
<lopex[m]> but the eveolutionary mechanism is always the same
<lopex[m]> pathogenicity drops
<enebo[m]> but what I don't understand is you need to be more contagious to take over so ??? maybe omicron will be always be ancestral
<enebo[m]> no that is not true
<enebo[m]> The number of times I have read epidemiologists say you cannot count on that
<lopex[m]> more contagious good at this stage, ti will produce even weaker pathogenes
<enebo[m]> Yeah I don't think that is true either but I think it may make it harder for something radically different from omicron to take hold
<lopex[m]> well, it's a common mechanism, the maybe exceptions
<lopex[m]> but it makes sense for me
<enebo[m]> unless omicron and another strain mix via recombinant virus
<lopex[m]> very rare
<lopex[m]> there was this deltacron
<enebo[m]> It has happened with covid already...just has not become dominant
<enebo[m]> but it could.
<lopex[m]> it always can
<enebo[m]> you have billions of petri dishes walking around :)
<lopex[m]> but it';s rare
<lopex[m]> right
<lopex[m]> it like genetics drift and genetic shift
<lopex[m]> the worst things come from genetic shift in birds and mammals
<enebo[m]> We probably should cut this conversation off but my main concern is we have never left pandemic state anywhere. We are spiking again in MN (albeit a much slower spike)
<lopex[m]> yeah, I'm a bit biesed here too, since covid is no loger a topis in EU
<enebo[m]> in 3 weeks we went from 3/100k and we are up to 37/100k. Last week we were 28 or so
<lopex[m]> for another reason
<enebo[m]> this ignores most people are not reporting it unless it is more serious or they have some reporting requirement
<enebo[m]> so we are probably over 50 right now
<lopex[m]> enebo: I think you should check out https://www.ons.gov.uk/
<enebo[m]> Most of the US has not had this happen though. A few places are slow-spiking
<lopex[m]> they were always at odds with political decisions
<lopex[m]> the other thing is of course different populations respond differently
<lopex[m]> lots of factors
<enebo[m]> tons fo factors
<lopex[m]> nutrition
<lopex[m]> you call it
<lopex[m]> though I;'m a bit surpprised about what you said about MN
<lopex[m]> it's not a densly populated state is it ?
<enebo[m]> in US we reclassified hospitalizations/deaths. We stopped reporting requirements from states to the CDC. We stopped masking. We stopped reimbursing rapid tests
<enebo[m]> Nope
<enebo[m]> It is just a super contagious virus which is continuously spreading but the spread is predicated on lots of variables
<lopex[m]> and average age ?
<lopex[m]> comared to other states ?
<enebo[m]> The US is literally messaging that is not that serious. So people are going out and mixing it up.
<enebo[m]> Our age I do not think is a lot different than others
<enebo[m]> Our largest county does have the most cases right now but historically that has not really held true
<lopex[m]> well, we almost have a joke here in Poland, covid ended 24.2.2022
<enebo[m]> Usually that county is average or even a little below it
<enebo[m]> I think policy and messaging is making people do things which make more people sick
<lopex[m]> enebo: now we had like 3mln imigrants, and no testing
<enebo[m]> lopex: yeah that's a tough situation
<enebo[m]> you are so close :)
<lopex[m]> we're also the only path for transferring the weapons
<enebo[m]> yeah
<lopex[m]> so you're perception changes a bit wrt covid :P
<lopex[m]> here now it;s a history
<lopex[m]> no one even talks about it in media etc
<enebo[m]> yeah I wish that were true but we are still in a pandemic the world over
<lopex[m]> no the youtubers make money talking about the war
<enebo[m]> My main perception of covid is I don't want long covid.
<enebo[m]> I am not worried about dying or getting a serious hospital visit because I limit exposure. I am pretty healthy
<enebo[m]> but we don't know that much about long covid.
<lopex[m]> well, I guess I'm on high risk list too
<lopex[m]> mid age smoking etc
<enebo[m]> we do have some hope with things like fluvoxid
<lopex[m]> but I'm tired of it
<enebo[m]> it supposedly clears much of the virus once you know you have it without making your immune system go ape shit
<enebo[m]> So if we get decent treatment drugs and people can readily take them and it prevents long covid AND covid continues being approximately omicron...then I will be ok
<lopex[m]> ah, the long covid, how frequent is it and on what condition ?
<lopex[m]> look, those terms are from the past :P
<lopex[m]> I know ver young ppl that had it
<enebo[m]> The stats are not very clear and one thing to come from long covid is that long flu and long other viruses is a thing that is starting to be recognized more now
<lopex[m]> so are you affraid of it
<lopex[m]> why
<enebo[m]> but one study I saw about 7-8 months ago said 1 million workers are no longer in the work force because of long covid
<enebo[m]> (in the US)
<enebo[m]> I think they said something like 4 million people said they have symptoms
<lopex[m]> I'd look at more data seriously
<enebo[m]> It is not just a single study but the studies themselves are squishy
<lopex[m]> yeah
<enebo[m]> long covid is so many symptoms/conditions
<lopex[m]> like metaanalysis thingy
<enebo[m]> but it is not just one place. It is definitely real and I can see people in our field complaining about having it
<enebo[m]> It is for sure real but how real is the problem
<headius> Taking off for AMS now, will be online later from the air
<lopex[m]> but I dont know how frequent it is
<enebo[m]> human studies that are largely survey's are the hardest science
<enebo[m]> headius: ok have a good flight
<enebo[m]> lopex: yeah as I said I want to understand long covid and all I know is it definitely is real and has many symptoms....just not sure how many people really get it
<lopex[m]> yeah, but how many papers talked about tak
<lopex[m]> how were the peer reviews
<lopex[m]> etc
<lopex[m]> what countries
<enebo[m]> Also things like a study showing people who made it to the hospital. Like 25% of a study of like 450 people (not a big number) has significant cognitive decline
<lopex[m]> what arxiv index etc
<enebo[m]> oh yeah I know. There are a lot of bad studies
<lopex[m]> I'm not trying to diminish that
<enebo[m]> no I got your point and I agree with it
<enebo[m]> but there is no way long covid is not real. It is mostly just understanding the magnitude of it
<lopex[m]> who is denying long covid ?
<enebo[m]> What is interesting as well is a lot of these symptoms have been documented in other viruses. So this is not really unique at all
<enebo[m]> I think people are not denying it outright but since it is not so easy to put a number to people dismiss it as something which is rare
<enebo[m]> and I guess it depends on the definition of rare
<enebo[m]> If 3% of the people get it is it rare?
<lopex[m]> yeah, makes sense
<lopex[m]> but clinically you have to build some kind of a model that identifies it
<enebo[m]> yep
<enebo[m]> and more than 2 years into this we have people writing papers but it is not the major topic of covid
<enebo[m]> I guess probably because death and hospitalizations are more immediate
<lopex[m]> actually the powers like facebook etc could to it
<lopex[m]> havin stolen all the bright minds :P
<lopex[m]> *halfsarcam
<enebo[m]> hahah
<enebo[m]> crowdsourcing problems I think can solve a number of things
<enebo[m]> but removing bad data is not something I understand
<lopex[m]> just like the spanish flu
<lopex[m]> yeah, in greated schemes of things we'll get insights after like 10 years from now
<enebo[m]> I was horrible in college statistics and I am not a sociologist
<lopex[m]> yeah, hated statistscs as well
<enebo[m]> It seems like we repeated the spanish flu socially pretty much
<lopex[m]> and terrible execution
<enebo[m]> same misinfo campaigns. same fatigue from it sticking around
<lopex[m]> from whatever point of view
<enebo[m]> maybe covid will disappear a few years from now in the same sense spanish flu did
<enebo[m]> I don't know. I am mostly just concerned and I do not think this is over. At least not yet
<lopex[m]> during 2020-2021 polish government was cirtisised mostly for overplaying covid for other morbidities
<lopex[m]> adn I agree this that
<lopex[m]> like you had a stroke and dies because mild covid patient had precedence
<enebo[m]> in the US the reason people died from strokes was not gov giving preference to covid patients. It is that we have a privatized health system which only factors in ~15-20% excess ICU space
<enebo[m]> So every spike pretty much would nuke our entire state of any ICU space
<lopex[m]> yeah, thats fucked in the US
<enebo[m]> People in MN were in ambulances for hours and hours because no hospital would admit them
<lopex[m]> there's a vid on YT where the tell GB ppl how costly healt insurance is
<lopex[m]> imagine the shock
<enebo[m]> yeah I mean it is amazing how broken our system is and I have seen that video
<lopex[m]> have you seen it ?
<enebo[m]> that one shows the cost of holding your baby right?
<lopex[m]> and cases like accident victims dont want to call for ambulance
<lopex[m]> they just cant afford
<enebo[m]> most people who call an ambulance in the US will effectively be bankrupt if they have no health insurance
<lopex[m]> madness
<lopex[m]> I'd be concerned here too in Poland but no bancrupt
<lopex[m]> well
<lopex[m]> it's different in other ways here
<enebo[m]> all countries have their issues I guess
<enebo[m]> US health care for a programmer working for a company is probably pretty ok health care
<lopex[m]> like you pay for national health but you choose to pay commecial companies just for get the thing done in time
<lopex[m]> and be better treated
<enebo[m]> but we constantly deal with bizarre rejections of payments where you have to resubmit before the insurance pays...just shit like that
<enebo[m]> yeah for nantional health care this is a debated topic right? private for premium can hurt the national system
<enebo[m]> Some people say they should have the option if they are willing to pay but others say by allowing that it creates a system which encourages it which makes the national system worse due to profit motive
<lopex[m]> hah, it;s critisised here too, but because it's overblown and corrupted
<enebo[m]> but I think almost all systems with dual care like this has the same criticisms
<enebo[m]> who is right? I don't know. I will not cast stones :) I live in the US
<enebo[m]> anyways I should consider prepping some dinner
<enebo[m]> for anyone else on this channel both lopex and I apologize for our typical tangent into the abyss :)
<enebo[m]> we will not return people to the regularly scheduled channel on jruby
<lopex[m]> haha
<lopex[m]> yeah, good talkin to you
<enebo[m]> lopex: and I am glad to talk with you. We have not had a chat in a long time
<lopex[m]> we might spin off some other channel for that
<enebo[m]> yeah we should
<enebo[m]> adk
<enebo[m]> err afk
<lopex[m]> enebo: I guess the only thing we didnt agree on was that patohgenicity/contagious, I'm not an expert on that but we can tackle in on another room