groovy2shoes has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
groovy2shoes has joined #crux-devel
<jaeger>
Yeah, I remember some complaints about it in the past... yet it keeps coming back
<beerman>
Is that because the host had it installed (iproute2)? I’m not sure how to deal with harfbuzz in a better way right now
chrcav has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
chrcav has joined #crux-devel
Romster has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<beerman>
We could also avoid problems by not shipping x11 and Firefox btw ;)
<beerman>
Besides that x11 is an outdated choice, i don’t use either at all so I’d be fine by saving some megabytes by not including that, which would make the ISO build process a lot easier
<stenur>
OpenBSD just updated X, NetBSD also had a large rush not too long ago. ok ok ok. But i like X, and the wayland things seem huge in comparison, and i do not need more than cwm, which currently seems to use about 3.5 MB of RAM, and has used 5 seconds of CPU time since Monday (14:46:49 up 3 days, 23:25), plus st terminal with ~5.5 MB and 79 seconds CPU, plus non-privileged (video,input group member)
<stenur>
Xorg, which is a bit larger (mostly mappings i guess) and consumed 19:37 min:sec CPU. firefox-bin is started boxed several times a day, but does not live permanently. Hey, that's all.
<stenur>
(Of course if CRUX altogether moves to wayland i had to look. But wayland and then only using that X compat layer whatever the name, but for firefox (maybe), not for me.)
<stenur>
(I mean hey i do not have a seat, i have a computer. ;)
<stenur>
(What really pi..es me off is that alsa cannot dig a "dmix" on a "plug", but only on a "hw". And that the kernel does not simply offer an audio multiplexer like it offers ptmx(4) for pttys, then sound server - for what? Nay, nay.)
<stenur>
(And hey i do not mean sound server, i mean server a, then server b (or c, or even d i think there was too), then server c. Let's see whether pipewire is it, then. But why not simply a multiplexer device? But that is surely off-topic for #crux-devel.)
<stenur>
s/then server c/then server e/
<stenur>
Heck. 3.7 would be great!! I am so happy with CRUX on this box! AlpineLinux there is, ok, but OpenRC is sick, and s6 also. (Void could possibly be looked at again, maybe.) I mean yes there is trouble here and there. But this is a GlibC system, and it just runs absolutely fine on real hardware since about 40 months now! And i do not even have to download the gigantic 3.7 DVD!
* stenur
says "have a nice weekend, if you can"
<farkuhar>
beerman: in the earlier discussion of making prt-get install do the same thing as prt-get depinst, there were strong opinions against the proposal, saying that it's not in the CRUX spirit to limit the options available to users. I pointed out that the old behaviour can still be achieved by running pkgmk and pkgadd manually.
<farkuhar>
similarly, if you remove x11 and firefox-bin from the 3.7 iso, users can still acquire x11 and firefox, but it will take more work on their part.
<stenur>
btw my port-up.sh script, i think it resolves things itself; it is mature now and in use ever since: http://ix.io/457Y
<stenur>
(i like -r, as it allows to fix a broken thing, then restart the entire update/install after it.)
<farkuhar>
i admit that the workaround for a slimmed-down iso that omits x11 and firefox is a one-time fix, whereas adapting to a change in prt-get argument parsing requires either a wrapper script (like stenur's port-up.sh) or retraining one's muscle memory when typing prt-get commands.
<beerman>
Your point?
<farkuhar>
among your reasons for not including x11 or firefox on the 3.7 iso (avoid problems, x11 is an outdated choice, saving some megabytes), the "avoid problems" reason is true at the build iso stage, but not so clear at the stage when a user who wants x11 or firefox is installing 3.7
<farkuhar>
it's a decision that would shift the problems from the iso builder to the average CRUX user (insofar as it's still typical to run x11 or firefox), rather than eliminating problems altogether
<jaeger>
An option would be to provide both the standard ISO and one with only core ports, for example
<jaeger>
As for iproute2, libtirpc is in core now, so it'll be there
<beerman>
ah
<beerman>
and i dont agree farkuhar, when you install either freetype or harfbuzz from a core install you are not running into that problem
<beerman>
its something happening "on a tainted build system"
<beerman>
and firefox, i mean, bin ports already suck. then there is romster being inactive and nobody really taking care of the "proper port"
<beerman>
i mean, whatever works, jaeger , i just dont see the point in including all these rather random packages for a barebone desktop
<beerman>
farkuhar: i mean, this is not ubuntu or mint or whatever, building a port is always the problem of the user, as well as reading the handbook on how to do it right (which most fail to do anyway) so i don't see a proper solution.
<beerman>
including only core packages to be installed just seems more right than providing half of a set for a desktop install
<jaeger>
I don't view it as random, myself, just because I think more users probably want a desktop environment than not and I think that at least currently more users are probably comfortable with xorg than with wayland. It's kinda just trying to account for more general use cases. I *personally* have no problem downloading and compiling xorg or wayland or whatever after the install is done but obviously not
<jaeger>
everyone is the same
<jaeger>
Related, though, I also feel like anyone who actively chooses to use a source-based distribution should not be afraid of compiling time
<jaeger>
Maybe I'll recreate a network install for this sort of thing, too
<beerman>
i mean having to compile your own kernel during the setup stage is already sort of a commitment in that direction
<jaeger>
OK, so it needs libmnl added for libnftnl
<jaeger>
And libnghttp2 used to be called nghttp2-libs?
<beerman>
yep, weird naming, i aligned it with whats hopefully considered to be a normal naming scheme
SiFuh has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
SiFuh has joined #crux-devel
<jaeger>
OK, guess we need to do something like this: http://ix.io/458I
<jaeger>
To catch both cases where either nghttp2-libs was installed and needs to be renamed, or nghttp2-libs was NOT installed and libnghttp2 is now needed
<beerman>
yep looks good
<jaeger>
Alright, ignore that rc1 ISO and I'll upload another one
<beerman>
sorry ^^'
<jaeger>
We should change the lilo parts of the 3.7 handbook to syslinux or grub. I'm guessing based on the hate grub gets that more folks would probably want syslinux. There's grub info in the appendix anyway
<beerman>
that among other things i guess
<beerman>
locale generation via core/glibc is another point
<jaeger>
yeah
<beerman>
we might also want to run that script after setup installed packages too
<jaeger>
There's always a pass or two of documentation updates before a new release
<beerman>
for at least a default locale or something
<beerman>
if there isn't already a proper config in place that is, in that case, i would expect it to update my configured locales
<beerman>
i dunno right now if there is much more, it has been too much time inbetween making these changes tbh, but no problem, i can always go over the gitlog and see what we did
<jaeger>
uploaded a new rc1 ISO
<beerman>
i mean, there is at least a few things we might want to mention in the release notes. including nftables as a modern replacement to iptables (which is great, imo, i don't understand voices that state otherwise since they stem from a "i don't want new stuff" mindset), cmake/meson/ninja which slowly but steadily replace autotools more and more which we adopt the best we can, the locales part of glibc needs to be told about, /var/run -> /run
<beerman>
with a special remark to check for scripts that still hardcode /var/run, then the users directory in /run with dumb-runtime-dir which is executed by pam
<beerman>
i dunno what else i am forgetting right now
<jaeger>
I have a list of a few update I'd like to make as well but I'd say go ahead and make updates to the 3.7 one, I'll have to build another ISO when it's finished anyway
<beerman>
you mean the todo as notes for the releasenotes/doc changes? i can do that
<jaeger>
I was referring to 3.7 handbook updates
<beerman>
oh, i'd rather write something and let you proof read tbh :D
<beerman>
being on the internet and talking to so many non native english speakers too, i am sure that my ramblings might need a helping hand for our handbook