<younder>
Go too far from those default optimization settings and you never know what you are going to get
<younder>
the speed 3 debug 0 is well tried. dangerous but predicatble
<younder>
I mean is space even used in SBCL?
<younder>
safety as far as I can see should almost never be 0 - 1 is fine
<younder>
just my two bits
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<younder>
Well I know combinatorics there is just no way all those combinations have been tested, let alone used
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<younder>
You wanna break a compiler.. There's how
<alcor>
I treat these optimization setting like I treat the flashy-looking buttons & knobs in a nuclear power plant. That is to say, I steer clear of them until I have a good understanding of what they *exactly* do (which won't be anything soon I'm afraid).
<alcor>
*any time soon
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<kathe>
hello everybody. :)
<younder>
You are Demosthenex
<younder>
You are new.
<kathe>
younder, i am not new.
<younder>
Sorry for my overzealous emacs completer
<kathe>
younder, your love for emacs is inspiring. ;)
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<younder>
Company should have been replaced by cape by now. I am guilty of not setting it up right.
<younder>
Anyhow welcome - not new - kathe
<kathe>
where is the he from france?
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<kathe>
okay, where is beach?
<beach>
You mean physically? In the Bordeaux metropolitan area.
<younder>
Pascal Bourmigon - not a clue, nor the Pascal Costanza. Our German contenders like Gilbert Baumann are still at large
<kathe>
beach!
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<kathe>
beach, i intend to write you a long-ish email. please don't get annoyed.
<beach>
I promise.
<beach>
What is it about?
<younder>
And yes SICL creator extraordinaire beach.
<kathe>
an outline for a possible book.
<beach>
Oh, nice!
<younder>
(Who is also German but living in France)
<beach>
younder: Who is German living in France?
<beach>
Certainly not me.
<younder>
whatever
<younder>
Like me you speak fluent German and French and also English. That is good enough for me
<younder>
Now a CLIM book would be greatly appreciated.
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<younder>
I mean I can basically figure it out, but it takes a lot of work. And help from our heros like jackdaniel
<beach>
I agree that a user manual would be great, especially written the way I would like it to be. But I have too much on my plate already, and not enough remaining life expectancy.
<younder>
Presumptuous to ask but.. Peter Seibel?
<younder>
Is he still a thing after PCL
<beach>
I don't know.
<younder>
Shouldn't we find out.
<kathe>
younder, do you think those other than you should attend to your whims?
<younder>
That would be great kathe, but for not we are in the speculative
<younder>
s/not/now/
<younder>
You are staring to sound like my *eliza* bot. Yes that is why is on 'public' display here.
<younder>
Let's assume we all want functional CLIM, with users, then we need a functional program and also a users manual. And at the moment we have neither.
<younder>
I mean I use the 'cutting edge' code. And it still leaves a lot to be desired.
<pranav>
younder: We have 2 manuals for the reference documentation.
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<pranav>
From Lispworks and Franz
<younder>
And also a McClim user manual. What can I say they 'need work'
<younder>
CLIM is *weird* from a current user's view. It is also cool - but that stands on understanding the difference between a window system and a interface manager between the Lisp program and the UI.
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<younder>
Recognize I can only speak as a fairly recent discoverer of this software.
<younder>
Back in the 1990's we had all of the *RTFM*. But that wasn't the way to learn lisp. PCL gave lisp a 'boost'. Now I feel the same way about CLIM
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<alcor>
I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but is there a way to _print_ an inspectable representation of a value in SLIME? I mean something like (pprint …), but with the result being inspectable.
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<Bubblegumdrop>
describe?
<Bubblegumdrop>
(let ((x '(1 2 3))) (with-output-to-string (s) (describe x s) s))
<beach>
I think alcor wants an Emacs presentation.
<alcor>
Thanks beach, that was the right term I was looking for.
<beach>
... i.e., the stuff you can click on.
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<alcor>
You can mouse-2/3 the representation and open the inspector from it.
<alcor>
*presentation I mean
<Bubblegumdrop>
Hm, there's probably a way to do that
<beach>
There must be since SLIME does it.
<Bubblegumdrop>
I know you can hook into swank?
<Bubblegumdrop>
One of my projects started a swank backend that I connected to instead of just launching a lisp
<Bubblegumdrop>
I didn't do anything more advanced with it than that but you could probably lisp <-> emacs
<alcor>
Interactively inspecting/exploring objects in the Lisp image at runtime is a useful. I used this feature a lot in Pharo Smalltalk. I remember it was possible in SLIME but I can't can't find it.
<alcor>
https://slime.common-lisp.dev/doc/html/Presentations.html#Presentations says: "For some Lisp implementations you can also install the package slime-presentation-streams, which enables presentations on the Lisp *standard-output* stream and similar streams. This means that not only results of computations, but also some objects that are printed to the standard output […]"
<ixelp>
Presentations (SLIME User Manual, version 2.24)
<ixelp>
I have to make some patch to make slime-presentation-streams work · Issue #730 · slime/slime · GitHub
<jackdaniel>
I've been wondering for a while whether a crowdfuning compaign for writing a book about McCLIM after current batch of chagnes would pan out
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<jackdaniel>
and what would be the amount that'd make it financially speaking worthwhile
<beach>
Probably a lot. Writing a book takes quite a lot of time.
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<beach>
And you would need a good proofreader who would require payment as well.
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<zyd>
alcor: there is also C-c C-v C-<tab> with your point/cursor on the presentation (horrendous default i somehow have stuck with and even memorized)
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<alcor>
zyd: Well, the problem is – I don't have a presentation. I want to output a presentation from inside Lisp code, but (pprint …) doesn't do the trick any more due to SBCL patches in SLIME bitrotting.
<alcor>
I'm trying to use (break) instead because according to the documentation, local variables in the debugger are presentations. But having issues with that too because SBCL aggressively prunes local variables.
<zyd>
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I wonder how you do that. I guess maybe a place to look is how slime handles instances of structs and classes?
<zyd>
Those always have presentations, so that would be the code I would hunt down.
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<alcor>
I eventually got it working by using (break) and convincing SBCL to keep the binding alive, but it's not a very comfortable way to get the presentation. Currently digging through SLIME code.
<alcor>
(no pun intended)
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<zyd>
heh
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<mrcom_>
alcor: If you're open to switching, Sly has functions to send objects to Emacs buffers--you can pop (clickable) stuff up in repl, inspector, editor buffer, and debug (IIRC).
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<mrcom_>
At least some of them work :) edrx over in #clschool was playing with it.
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<mrcom>
(slynk-mrepl:copy-to-repl-in-emacs (make-instance 'foo) :blurb "Here is a foo.")_
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<alcor>
I tried Sly a few months ago, the problem was that it didn't quite work with `fido-vertical-mode' and Emacs 29+ vanilla *Completions* but maybe that has been fixed, so I'll give it another whirl. Thanks for reminding me mrcom.
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<alcor>
I am enlightened. With Sly's "stickers" functionality, I don't even need to print presentations anymore. This is something even better than that.
<Bubblegumdrop>
I use sly... it's pretty great
<alcor>
Indeed, Stickers are cool. It's like putting a watch on any lisp form.
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<drewjose>
Any way to represent float inf and NaN in a way that doesn't depend on any particular implementation? This is for a toml parser
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